On Posts and 'The Process'

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Umbrae	28 Nov 2002
The Welsh author, Gwyn Thomas said, "We are deluded by the destination, the joy is in the walking". Remember the question of, "Why do you read?" Of course, we all had our own distinct voices. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=8718 I once posed, " Why do they come to us?" http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/articles/reading_for_others.html Most posts are about the extrinsic, and the static aspects of reading. They are about decks, meanings, shuffling and cutting, books, etc. Few posts are about the process of reading..."How do I get there? Are meanings static? How do I take what I know, and meet the needs of the sitter? How can I tell what the client really wants? What are the seven things every client wants to hear during reading? How many spreads do I really need to know? Should I keep my decks in a box or a bag?" How many more posts about religion must we endure? Toothpick Readings (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8599) was a process post… Someone posted that they were afraid they would forget the meanings. A brilliant question! Are static meanings part of a dynamic process? We examine in posts, the history of the cards themselves, but rarely upon the historical meanings of the images (Example: Is The Fool, really an innocent, naïve, individual? Answer: Only in modern terms. The historical iconography was anything except innocent and naïve. Jung and others may have placed what they saw – into what they knew – without full historical context). How accurate are our modern applications of meanings? By examining the real history of the cards themselves, we discover that facts and truth are often two different things; thus, we begin to discover that the process of reading is far more important than we give it credit. It is a lot like when we were back in school. Some of us got A's in Physics for the joy of getting an A in Physics. That was Good. Others conned the teacher into giving us an A in physics. That was bad. Did you go to school to learn? Or to get A's? The answer is important. Unfortunately we are in an A driven society. We were taught that we had to go to school to get good grades, so we could go to college, so we could get a good job, and work 40 hours a week for 40 years for somebody else and make their dreams come true so we could retire and live on half of what we couldn’t live on before. Now, as a reflection – look around you. Our approach is to study the cards…as we were taught in school…study the thing. Concentrate on too many details, and you will lose the picture. Life is not about a grade. We never studied ourselves – we never studied our process – we never studied why they come to us or how we should respond. Posts that ask, "How should I dress, how should I act, how can I get deeper into what my sitter wants and the reality of what they think they need, so I’m not as intuitive as you – I’m a thinker so what about me, what if…", those are invaluable, priceless… Reading Tarot does not reveal the future. It mirrors the present. It resonates against what your subconscious already knows and hauls it up out of the darkness so you can get a good look at it. Only when one is ready to peer into the darkness will they be given the gift of the light. Any Buddhist will tell you that the journey is far more important than the destination. The process folks…do you want to begin examining the process? :smoker:

MeeWah	28 Nov 2002
When a student is ready, a teacher will be found.

Teal	28 Nov 2002
You've been reading for 30 years, Umbrae, so for some of us (like me) who have only been reading for two or three months----in fact, only found tarot at all a short time ago-----our questions are naturally going to seem very misguided to someone of your experience. I love reading your posts, seeing you in chat, and I lap up all your wisdom very eagerly and respectfully but I can't begin to match your tarot wisdom or ask the questions that would reflect anything like your great experience with it. I'll even try reading toothpicks if you say that's where to begin or a good exercise to use to train for reading the cards. Thank you for this post and for calling our attention to what's important about tarot, but hopefully you're tolerant and understanding of us who are just starting, too. Now that all that is said-------do you think wearing mesh stockings and stilleto heels too provacative to be taken seriously as a tarotist? (Teal ducking and running to avoid flying spit wads from Umbrae. LOL) Hugs to you, my friend! Teal

RedWood	28 Nov 2002
Talking or discussing tarot in every aspect is fun..serious or not...wearing stiletto heals would be ok..if you wont fall and hurt yourself...

isthmus nekoi	28 Nov 2002
We don't like the process in our product driven society b/c it's difficult to measure, and it's different for everyone. You can't judge it, you can't rank it, you can't standardize it. And if you can't do these things to it, you sure as heck can't *sell* it, which is, at least in a capitalist society, the bottom line. Or maybe I'm just being cynical ^_~ Between the facts and the Truth lies the story... In this interspace we find the narrative, the representation, the human. Throw me a reading, tell me a story.... Umbrae, I'm right w/you on this one. Let us savour each individual weaving threads of order from the chaos of our lives; let us enjoy the richness of the process of our existence...

Alex	29 Nov 2002
When I know something, it's usually some un-requested information that comes from nowhere, regarding someone who's not asked me a question_ and whom I don't feel comfortable to approach with breaking news. No fun here and no help to anyone either. But if I read for people then I approach it in a rather "scholar" manner_ because that's all I've learned to do all my life, to approach things from an analytical/ intellectual standpoint. I personally don't make much connection between "knowing" and the process of "getting to know" something when it comes to predicting events or counseling people. I either know (but don't know how), or I don't know (and cards make no difference). But cards can help sometimes; they can be of help when we want to say to people things we would feel compelled to say anyway, given that advice had been requested. What I mean is, the cards can act as 1) somewhere we can project "authority" and be listened to with some more attention and respect than in ordinary interactions 2) a means to afford associations of various kinds and open the doors to some deeper dialogue. I personally like studying meanings and reading books but I doubt not, they can be for most part dispensed with. Intellectual speculations can be fun and I wouldn't discourage it for the ones who, like me, take satisfaction out of it. But I don't know much about reading Tarot so I better go to bed and have a good night sleep. Alex.

MystiqueMoonlight	29 Nov 2002
Into the void darkness unknown to understand more the lessons are shown Read what ye will look and see learning is more than words that might be We look at the sky and see only stars the presence of Moon the absence of Mars Take what ye shall buy ye a book read it so well forget where to look Imagine has gone realty is true don't look within whatever ye do A pen is as mighty as any one sword but understanding self has it's own reward Pray to Thine God or Goddess perhaps the act of true will in this life may have lapsed Thine Soul has learnt lessons before it is now but ye don't remember perhaps not care anyhow Perhaps if ye looked from within not from out the lessons ye learn be always with Thou Trust thineself don't look but see hear Thine voice and speak with Thee. (MystiqueMoonlight Nov 2002)

Kiama	29 Nov 2002
I do not see a distinction between 'the process' and question such as 'decks', 'box?'... It is all one big journey, which I am enjoying immensely. It is only when one starts defining things and trying to split Tarot into different 'parts' that htere is a distinction btween journey and destination... It's all the same. Its ALL the journey. How can you seriously say 'this part of the learning process is less important than this one?' Kiama

Kissa	29 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae [b] Reading Tarot does not reveal the future. It mirrors the present. It resonates against what your subconscious already knows and hauls it up out of the darkness so you can get a good look at it. Only when one is ready to peer into the darkness will they be given the gift of the light. The process folks…do you want to begin examining the process? :smoker: It is funny to read these lines from you, Umbrae. I finally put my finger this afternoon on what I want to do with tarot, after trying things in every direction and then, I come here and read your post ... When I came back at tarot (about one year ago after a teenage crush on it ;-) ) I got this inner feeling/hurge each time there was an inextricable situation: I pulled my cards and most of the times got an answer, an honest answer, not sparing my pride or my rigid conceptions. --- I even happened to someone to forgive me for something after a reading "showed" me what an unfair b**** I had been. I was feeling bad about the all incident but couldn't make any decision until the cards hold me the mirror of my own stupidity and stubborness (sp ?). I tried to read fancy tarot books but didn't recognise my quest in the new age ready-to-swallow soup they were offering. I don't think I am a pagan, I don't do spells, magick or any wiccan stuff, I like my freedom ;-) --- PLEASE : I am being sarccastic, don't you wiccans feel offended ! The point of this message was to give you my little green light about examining the process. Don't expect too much from beginners like me but be sure I will read the result of your thoughts and meditations with the greatest attention. PS : sorry for this unclear message, I am just back at writing my thoughts here ;-) Kissa

WolfSpirit	29 Nov 2002
Once I was that happy traveller that just took her backpack without any fixed plans, I never stuck by plans anyway and I just enjoyed whatever I encountered. Now I don't travel that much and I find myself spending a lot of time trying to achieve things; thank you so much for this post Umbrae, to go back spiritually to that time when I really enjoyed the process. I should be able to bring that feeling back, even if I am not that much of a traveller now: because it applies to tarot, and studies, and that sweater I am knitting...

Fuzzmello	29 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Only when one is ready to peer into the darkness will they be given the gift of the light. Well, there we are. I think learning that we can't earn or achieve the light is the process. How about sitting with the discomfort of uncertainty until it no longer has any power to motivate us? What if our first impressions of a spread were always correct? Does second-guessing render intuition impotent? Do the cards necessarily speak to the client, or is their message always for the medium? Fuzz PS - I might just borrow that quote for my signature. OK, Umbrae?

MeeWah	29 Nov 2002
Umbrae: If by "the process" ye refer to a sequence in which possible meanings or an interpretive reading is obtained, then I see it as dependent on the individual reader; the sum total of the individual resources of experiences, knowledge & understanding. Static meanings have their place. They contribute to "the process" in that such meanings offer a basis of extrapolation into other possibilities like a free-form association. Knowledge of the historical or traditional attributions can enrich the reservoir of associations but they are not always necessary since knowing when to rely on the intuition is key to the accessing the pertinent or appropriate information. Intuition is not the dominion of the more experienced in Tarot, but accessible to all. It requires knowing how to listen. Questions regarding details such as shuffling, the care of the cards, addressing the needs of the querent both known & unknown & so on--all contribute to the journey or "the process". Each facet of the Tarot experience is another step in the journey to actualizing "the process".

Umbrae	30 Nov 2002
“The Process” has very little to do with meanings, but they are involved. The process is everything else involved in the reading. It is about putting the skeptic at ease, finding their issues… It is about the interaction between the sitter and the reader, both conscience and unconscious. It is about the process of a reading, and not the reading itself. …yes, care of the cards… I was just wondering if more folks wanted to chat more about…the process? Just wanted to know if folks want to begin to look deeper…

MystiqueMoonlight	30 Nov 2002
Umbrae, Understood right from the start. When I first began with the cards I said I was only going to have the one "true" deck. I have several now. Not because I like to collect them or because I like the sitter to have a choice of decks. I have them because the decks have led me to them. I don't do a lot of readings, but when I do I do try to see more in the cards other than a "tall dark man"...The cards are a lesson for me. A pathway if you will. Have you ever looked at a card in your deck and thought "I just don't get it" or "I really don't like that card". I do. Then I ponder on this a while. Meditate on it if you will. Peer into the darkness. As for the process of reading. Well I don't have a "process". If I feel right about doing it I will, if not I refuse. I do ask for guidance and I do spend some time with the layout as I read. Firstly analysing each individual card as they are drawn and then the relationship they have to each other in the over all spread. I would like to discuss this topic further so I won't go on too much just yet :)

Talisman	30 Nov 2002
'Lo all, Umbrae, I'm not sure what you're fishing for here. You've baited your hook with amorphous generalities, studded with a few specific questions like raisins in a pudding. If you just want to make people think, well, you ususally do. If you just want to encourage talkin' Tarot, well, that's what we do here. In every thread. You keep asking for "process," as if that were some allusive goal. It's not. ** process: n., 1. the course of being done 2. course (of time, etc.) 3. a continuing development involving many changes (the process of digestion) 4. a particular method of doing something, generally involving a number of steps or operations . . . ** So, the beginner's question, "How do I get my new cards out of the box?" is part of the process. Since we're all quoting, "The process of journeying a thousand miles begins when we grab our packs and open the door." So's Umbrae's seasoned veteran question, "How do I put a skeptical person at ease so I can read for them?" -- just tell 'em to buzz off is my answer -- is part of the process. Just ask the question. Is the question, "What are the seven things every reader should tell their client?" any more important a part of the "process" than the beginner questions people like me ask? ("Okay, I've got my cards out of the box, now how to I shuffle them?") You rightly observe that we are a driven society, but, Umbrae, I think you are teetering on the brink of falling into this yourself by seeking a treasure map to find "process." This is like looking for the ocean when you are up to your neck in water and hundreds of miles from shore. If you think, "What should the well-dressed Tarot reader wear?" is a good question, ask it. Or, in your case, answer it. That's part of the process. But, if you try to make finding the process a mystic goal, then, as they say down in the Ozarks, "You've screwed the lid on too tight." Talisman ------------------------- "All paths lead nowhere, so pick one that is fun to follow." -- (Wish I knew who said that.)

Lee	30 Nov 2002
I am, once again, troubled by the implication that certain kinds of posts are desirable and certain others undesirable. My feeling is that as long as folks are on-topic, are posting in the appropriate forum, and are not violating the Forum Guidelines, then they ought to be able to discuss anything they want without having to fear that the forum moderator will make fun of them. Umbrae, if you want to discuss something in particular, why don't you just discuss it, instead of telling us all the things you would rather we don't discuss? -- Lee

zander770	30 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah . . . a teacher will be found. No, when s/he is "ready," I "appear..." (just kiddin' ya...) ~Z~770 })

MystiqueMoonlight	30 Nov 2002
aaahhh metaphors! An invention of the poet writing a love letter to the Universe. How can it be that a simple question can receive such complicated answers. The student would like to become the teacher I fear. Perhaps an innocent question has been posted. How do I shuffle my cards? The LWB's say this or that so which one is right? Can anyone give me a spell to cure my sick dog (even though I have never practiced the craft)? What is the process? Are these questions to mock? Are these questions to lure the so called naive into a web of deceit? Are these questions to ask for clear direction? Are these questions to merely incite provocative discussion? We are a community of a few. Yes a few in the great cosmic form of Gaia. Have we not joined this community to debate, discuss, learn and perhaps from time to time even teach? I do not believe the question suggests anything other than to raise discussion on the subject in an objective and perhaps enlightened matter. No mockery or teasing was meant by it. The interest of one can sometimes inspire the minds of the learned.

divinerguy	30 Nov 2002
It appears, Umbrae, that you have dropped a grain of sand into a euphemistic oyster; challenging our brothers and sisters to think about how they read the cards. As interesting as the question may be, I find the inquiry more fascinating than the responses. Is your question motivated by the engineer in your soul, who wants to know about the mechanics of the readings? If I turn card X, when adjacent to card Y, when in position Z, then result XYZ will occur. The word, "process," sounds very mechanical in nature. Or is it the philosopher in you, who asks the age old question in the form of Tarot, "What is the meaning of life?" The phrase, "look deeper," strikes me as being very metaphysical in its intent. Or is it the teacher, who uses the methods of Socrates, who teaches the students by asking them to justify their conclusions? I think this, because your second post seemed to prod us into responding. If I had to bet money, without knowing more, I'd wager that its a combination of the three.

Diana	30 Nov 2002
I'm a little at a loss here. First of all, your question, Umbrae has uncovered numerous unexplored paths in my mind. Before I have started exploring them, I cannot respond to the issue you have raised. Let's just say that I'm peering into the darkness here, not realising how dark it was before. So I thank you. Lee, I do not understand your post. Where does Umbrae say that some posts are desirable and others are not? Does he not just say that he wonders whether anyone would like to join him in thinking about the Process? Or is it I who have not understood your post?

Lee	30 Nov 2002
Umbrae, as I'm reading your post for the zillionth time, it occurs to me that perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're writing. Maybe I could ask you a few questions and you could clarify... Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Few posts are about the process of reading..."How do I get there? Are meanings static? How do I take what I know, and meet the needs of the sitter? How can I tell what the client really wants? What are the seven things every client wants to hear during reading? How many spreads do I really need to know? Should I keep my decks in a box or a bag?" I can't tell here if you're being sarcastic or serious. Are you saying these are the questions you think we should be asking, or are these not the questions we should be asking? The reason I'm confused is because the last question, "Should I keep my decks in a box or a bag," seems to be in line with the previous topics which you seem to say are the ones we should steer clear of, i.e. what decks to use, how to shuffle, etc. Quote: How many more posts about religion must we endure? I'm at a loss as to what this has to do with anything you've raised. This above all else is what led me to make my post above about not editorializing on members' choice of topics to post about.Here again, are you being serious here or sarcastic? I was taking it as being sarcastic and thus mocking of others' posts, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm confused because this seems to conflict with your prior posts which suggest that we should avoid intellectualizing too much and avoid worrying about such things as what to wear and how to act and what meanings we're using for the cards. Quote: Now I'm totally confused. How is the process of a reading different than the reading itself? So, I apologize if I've misread. As I say, I've been reading your post over and over and I'm genuinely having trouble understanding what you're getting at, probably due more to my denseness than anything else. -- Lee

Umbrae	30 Nov 2002
Hey guys… I am sorry. That must have been the worst thing I have ever written. One or two of you got it. Others, chose to attack the messenger, and come off heavy handed (lighten up guys)…and no I do not have all the answers, after all… Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae New to site. Have been studying/using tarot since ****so I’m still a student). Just wanted to say “Hello”… It was just a question… Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight aaahhh metaphors! An invention of the poet writing a love letter to the Universe. Are these questions to mock? Are these questions to lure the so called naive into a web of deceit? Are these questions to ask for clear direction? Are these questions to merely incite provocative discussion? I do not believe the question suggests anything other than to raise discussion on the subject in an objective and perhaps enlightened matter. No mockery or teasing was meant by it. The interest of one can sometimes inspire the minds of the learned. Perhaps the word ‘process’ was confusing, although divinerguy ‘got it’. It is about the act of reading, the interpersonal aspect between the sitter and the reader, it is about… Let me answer with a question; why might I give a sitter a chocolate before a reading? Why might the price I charge dictate a sitter’s expectations? The ‘process’ is a metaphor, a euphemism, for the aspects of readings that are not covered in books…that’s all. Once again, I apologize for not writing clearly – and addressing our focus – a focus on Tarot and Reading Tarot. :smoker:

Alex	30 Nov 2002
increasese levels of serotonin, i.e. it's a natural anti-depressant. On the other hand if the "sitter" has hyperactive disorder mediated or worsened by foold allergies and/or rapid increase in blood glicose levels, you might end up with a problem. (Oh well each one contributes the way one can). I guess Mojo has written some enlightening posts on the subject matter however within different contexts. I don't have exp to oppinate but I wanted to leave a note about the chocolate. Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Let me answer with a question; why might I give a sitter a chocolate before a reading?

Jeanette	30 Nov 2002
I thought for a brief moment I understood this whole thread, but then I didn't :( LOL Umbrae, is this about the interaction that occurs between the reader and querent, and everything the tarot reader has experienced previously while studying tarot and brings to the reading?

MeeWah	01 Dec 2002
Lee: I hope I am not speaking out of turn, but I hope to inject some clarity. I see your point & understand that some of Umbrae's comments may appear a wee ambiguous--though I am not sure that is the correct term. Initially, I wondered too, but as I read further into Umbrae's post, it occurred to me that Umbrae is acting (again) as Socrates would, the ancient Greek philosopher who was also a teacher. Socrates is known to have acted as a devil's advocate in challenging & encouraging his students to really *think*. To ask of themselves the whys & hows of a thing; to question themselves & others, including a teacher. Granted, we are not Umbrae's students per se, but in this venue, we are all both teachers & students; philosophers, too. What ensues is a discussion of aspects that can broaden the individual perception & perhaps, extend insight into another's view. Edited to add: I do not think that Umbrae meant anything personal in his approach to eliciting a discussion.

lawguy51	01 Dec 2002
Let me weigh in here, although a little late. I wrote a book once. I had all sorts of decisions to make. First person, third person, past, present tense. There was a lot of research, and words to look up in the dictionary. I had to choose font type and size and create names for my characters. I had an outline and a plot and a weekly timetable. I counted words and lines and pages. But none of those things were the 'process'. They were the things like, how do I shuffle and should I wrap my deck in silk and how do you smudge a deck. But the actual writing, the dipping into the universal creative well and letting the words flow, that was the payoff, that's what made it worthwhile; later shocking myself as I read back what I had written and stared in wonder as I pondered where those sentences could possibly have come from....that is the 'process' Umbrae is talking about. At least for me. It's what comes after all of the accumulated knowledge and ritual and social interaction has melted away and left you alone with your cards, dipping into that same unconscious that allowed me to take care of the quantity while the creative force took care of the quality. Lawguy51

Lee	01 Dec 2002
Just to make sure that I'm being clear, I'm withdrawing my criticisms of Umbrae's post, because on rereading it I realize that I don't have the slightest idea what he's talking about. I fully admit the possibility that the fault lies with me, especially since most everybody else who has posted in this thread seems to have no problem with it. Unless Umbrae chooses to clarify the points I'm confused about, then I have no basis upon which to criticise. -- Lee

The On Posts and 'The Process' thread was originally posted on 28 Nov 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.