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Qabalists do the Fool's Journey Backwards!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.



Kiama  16 Nov 2002 
I have recently made very good friends with a Qabalist Ritual Magician, and I was discussing Tarot and it's relation to spiritual development with him. I was talking about how we are the Fool, and we trvale through the Major Arcana until we reach the World, and explained how each card pertained to different stages in spiritual development.

He looked puzzled, and asid: 'That's the first time I've heard it done the wrong way round.' I was confused... He then explained that Qabalists (Not just people who study Qabalah, people who LIVE Qabalah) see the journey as being from World to Fool, with the Fool being the ultimate spiritual goal. We sat there in confused bewilderment, because neither of us had seen or heard it done the other's way before... He explained it all, but from a Ritual Magick point of view of course, but it made clear sense... I'll see if I can remember a few points of it...

World: We begin our spiritual journey with an awarness of the bigger picture...
Judgement/Aeon: We then move on to realising we are a divine child, the Aeon if you will...
Sun: Forgoteen this one!
Moon: This card is where we go through the stage of dabbling in 'sorcery', spells, etc... What this man called 'Low Magick'
Star: We become aware of our 'Holy Guardan Angel', and the healing power of It...
Tower: This is the opening of the Eye of Siva, where our false beliefs are tested and destroyed, where the Gods give us the first 'kick up the ass'....
Devil: Something to do with the Tower, but also about confronting our inner demons and the spiritual evil present in all of us
Temperence: We are left to pick up the pieces and balance the spiritual evi land spiritual good, and integrate both into ourself...
Death: A new change in spiritual outlook is come to, and we leave behind teh stage of the Moon etc, and go forward...
Hanged Man: The 'Vision of Compassion', where we really learn about the Uniersal Unconscious, instead of just focussing on our own person Consciosuness.
Justice: An awareness of the Cosmic and Divine Order, and the attempr to use it toour benefit...
Wheel: Forgotten
Hermit: When we take what we learned in the Hanged Man (Compasion) and put it into practice, helping others to se hteir true spiritual nature... We go out into the world withour lamp and shine brightly for others.
Strength and Chariot : These two are vey similar... Thy're very much about overcoming our lower nature, taking control of our animal instincts and using them to our benefit.
Lovers: The 'Heiros Gamos', Sacred Marriage...
Heirophant : Forgotten
Emperor: Forgotten
Empress: Where we then enter the womb on the great Mother, Binah, and 'gestate'
High priestess: The crossing of the Abyss, (Which would explain the Gimel-Camel association here! The camel crosses the desert, just as we must cross the abyss) which segregates the Adept from the Magus.
Magician: We are now fully skilled at Magick, fully spiritual beings, who can take control of our lives, and have al lthe tools we nee to do anything we want....
Fool: The Boddhisattva... We have to get rid of the ego of the Magician before we can become this eternally spiritual being.

It's a poor rendition of what this man was saying, cuz we were discussing it in a pub which was full of disctracting background noise. I'm no Qabalah stdent (Though that will soon be changing!) so I haven't writen all about the correspondances between the paths o the Tree of Life and the Sephiroth that the man was including when he spoke to me anbout this...

What do you guys think? Which way doyou prefer? Fool-World, or World-Fool?

Kiama 


Ravenswing  16 Nov 2002 
hi all--

as i see it, it's just a matter of where you're headed. and which way is up. one little thing to remember is that kether (the top) is reflected in malkuth (the bottom).

one thing to keep in mind while kabbalahing along is that everything is a model of **reality**. some models even twice removed.

if your model is internally consistent, works and gets you where you want to go, use it. you will find that you change your model now and again as you grow (or shrink); and sometimes will find portions of the new model contridicting the older version.

in fact, you could shuffle up the majors and follow that random pathway to wherever it leads. but only if you believe this is valid...

sometimes wondering which way is up
ravenswing 


DeLani  16 Nov 2002 
That is really interesting. I'm not a student of the Qabbala either, but I know just enough to be dangerous.
I think it is really just a matter of viewpoint. One (Qabbalistic) view is that the "world" is somehow fallen or unclean, and we puny humans must "rise above" it in order to be closer to God or enlightenment. Bear in mind, the Qabbala was invented (no offense) by Hebrews - wandering patriarchal goatherders living in semi-arid parts of the world.
The other (more Pagan) viewpoint sees the "world" as wonderful, magical, diverse, exciting - something to aspire to, not "rise above." This view is more compatable with settled agriculturalists, who see time, and all reality, as being cyclic.
Both views seem to see the Fool as very postive - childlike innocence, purity, etc. But the Qabbalistic view says that that state is something we must work toward to achieve, while the Pagan way states that we are born that way, and the natural course of life and experience can bring us to a different, but equally good, state of being.
Having said that (can you tell which point of view I'm coming from?), I believe the Fool's Journey was an idealized process - a myth (in the Joseph Campell sense), not what actually happens to us as we age. That is what the random drawing of cards shows us! But that's another thread...
;) 


Demonesse  16 Nov 2002 
I know nothing about the Qabbalah at all - but this just struck me as similar to Buddhism, where one has to remove oneself from all material attachments (the World) in the journey towards enlightenment and simplicity in one's approach to living. 


jmd  17 Nov 2002 
One of the reasons why I had decided, many years ago, to first work with both systems independently is precisely because it seemed that either imposed upon the other certain inconsistencies.

I personally view that when one looks into the Tarot, XXI the World is a goal, not a beginning point.

Similarly, Kether is also the most distant of the Sephiroth. Working Kabbalistically, one begins in Malkut and slowly ascends. I know of only few people who can genuinely (in my opinion at any rate) begin their ascent from a superior Sephiroth.

Kiama's point also makes the assumption that the Fool - traditionally un-numbered - is placed at the opposite end of the sequence to the World (ie, given an effective numeral of zero to the former).

As Kiama has read some of my earlier posts on this matter, it may now make more sense why I prefer a system which does not coincide with Golden Dawn preferences: the path of ascent, from Sefirah to Sefirah, certainly has increasing levels of spiritual depth, as do the sequences from I to VIIII and XI to XVIIII in the Tarot.

Those who accept the Golden Dawn's Tarot placements upon the Sephirot's 'connecting paths' will either seek to follow the Tarot as a descent into the world (ie, assume one's position in Kether and move towards Malkut), or seek to rise upon the Tree, leading to an inverse Tarot journey. Is either of these warranted?

Personally, I place I/XI within Malkut, II/XII within Yesod, &c..

This is, of course, just my own preference based upon my own theurgic and contemplative work with Kabbalah and the Tarot.

This is a thread with quite important, in my opinion, ramifications. Looking forward to other responses! 


TheFoolofChaos  17 Nov 2002 
In this Fool's humble opinion, it is a metaphoric language describing two infinite paths. One, the descent of the Fool (All/Nothing) into the World/Universe. The other revealing
the Fool's (Individual's) path from the World/Universe to Magus/Creator and finally the Fool (All/Nothing) once more.

The Fool is 0, All and Nothing, one and many, Quintessence. 


DeLani  17 Nov 2002 
Fabulous topic!
I agree with jmd's system, that the cards 1-10, then the "higher vibrations" of 11-20 belong in each Sephiroth, not as "paths" between Sephira (that are minor arcana!?). At least I think that's what he's saying...am I on track with you, jmd?
That system of having 1-10, then 11-20 as higher vibrations of those first ten, is part of neo-pythagoreanism that I really like. The cards then become "paired" in exciting and inspiring ways (The Empress/Death, for example).
Anxious to hear more! 


SlyR  17 Nov 2002 
Read original sources before speculating.

The Cabbalistic tradition holds that NO Tarot trumps correspond to the Sephiroth. Rather, they correspond to the twenty-two paths joining the Sephiroth.

I will recommend, as usual, Madonna Compton's "Archetypes on the Tree of Life," which prescribes a pathworking regimen using the Tarot trumps as a theme. She also begins with the World.

The reason for beginning with the World (or Universe, as per Crowley and Compton) is that the World is Malkuth (mal-KOOT), the physical universe, from which be begin our journey towards the pure light of our higher selves.

Yes, Demonesse, it does resemble Buddhism. In fact, Dion Fortune calls the Qabalah "the Yoga of the West," because of its similarities shared with Eastern traditions. The Qabalah is a system of spiritual study in which one aspires to obtaining the Knowledge and Conversation With the Holy Guardian Angel (Higher Self), not unlike the Yoga goal of raising Kundalini energy to a point at which enlightenment is obtained. It is this "being in tune with" so many Universal systems and paths that lends the Qabalah its credibility.

L.V.X.,
Frater S. L. Raymond 


Keslynn  18 Nov 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by SlyR
Read original sources before speculating.

The Cabbalistic tradition holds that NO Tarot trumps correspond to the Sephiroth. Rather, they correspond to the twenty-two paths joining the Sephiroth.

L.V.X.,
Frater S. L. Raymond


I believe that jmd and DeLani weren't speculating. I think that they were positing their own views on the system of attributing certain cards to parts of the Tree of Life.

As for "original": tarot and qabalah are artificially tied together, as are many other esoteric systems these days. Umbrae always has a lot to say about that. Qabalah developed first and others later forced tarot correspondences onto the Tree. (Okay, so there's a theory that tarot and qabalah are from the same idea... etc. But I'm an historian, and I need documents to prove it!) I have no problem with tying esoteric systems together, as long as you realize how such ties developed over time. Also, since the ties are artificial, they're fairly adaptable.

:) Kes 


jmd  18 Nov 2002 
Just a quick response before I have the time to make a longer one.

There certainly are different views, some of which are undoubtedly more correct than others.

In terms of reading original sources, I totally agree with SlyR - and of course, therein you will find absolutely NO correlation between the two systems. 


SlyR  18 Nov 2002 
I do appreciate the remark about Tarot & Sephiroth having no original relation. In that spirit, I should amend my own comment slightly: When I said that the QBL tradition superimposes the Tarot trumps onto the paths of the Tree of Life, I was not referring to the earliest Kabbalists. Naturally, the attributions came later, perhaps around the Renaissance, and maybe even as late as the Golden Dawn.

So strike my almost-inflammatory comment about original sources from the record.

However, in response to this statement:
"I believe that jmd and DeLani weren't speculating. I think that they were positing their own views on the system of attributing certain cards to parts of the Tree of Life."
... Isn't what you just described _speculation_? One's "own views" are nothing more than the opinion of one person, which isn't necessarily bad or inaccurate; but it definitely lacks the credibility of centuries of tradition from which other Cabalistic authorities draw. 


Keslynn  18 Nov 2002 
It was just that speculation implied that it was more tentative and not well-formed (i.e. not based on any sort of educated base). I was just pointing out that it seemed to be something that jmd and DeLani had thought about before. It was the shading of the word.

Please don't think I'm a rancid b*&^h. I just like a good debate.

:) Kes 


jmd  18 Nov 2002 
My previous post was made in the rush of leaving my desk to join my wife for an afternoon coffee in the hills in the surrounding of Melbourne - always a pleasant relaxing and rejuvenating break after work :)

Now I've returned home and give my somewhat longer reply to SlyR's post - a post having the potential to create some animosity or defense amongst some due to its opening comment. SlyR's original post certainly appears to presume that somehow the Golden Dawn (GD) variety of Tarot and Kabalistic associations are somehow either/both the correct ones or/and the only ones. This is certainly not the case, though it remains very worthy of investigation and also remains, for the time being, predominant in Anglophonic sites and countries.

I personally agree with the predominant Kabbalistic practice of starting in Malkut and from there work upwards (some Kabbalists begin their work from Tiferet). If one places the Major Arcana a-la-GD, then of course one places these not within Sefirot, but upon certain fixed and determined postulated interconnecting 'paths', and thus begin to travel though, firstly, the World. To give one alternative (amongst numerous), if one works more along the lines of the OKRC (also formed, as did the GD, in 1888), then in Malkut one would work with the Wheel of Fortune.

I presume that SlyR intended to include me when stating 'read original sources' - and I presume (though am quite willing to be corrected) that these 'original' sources include Fortune, Case, Zalewski, Cicero, Wang, Knight, and of course Mathers, Levi, and Regardie (amongst others). Of these, my personal favourites are without doubt the Zalewskis and Regardie: their material support for the Golden Dawn is, in my view, unsurpassed - and I am certain that SlyR would agree that these have to be more than just read, but rather form merely part of the background study for what needs to be worked!

With regards to, however, Kabbalah and Tarot, I prefer A. Kaplan, M. Idel and G. Scholem for the former, and S. Kaplan, R. O'Neill and V. Tomberg for the latter. Again, these have to be more than 'just' read.

The question is also, to be sure, whether one wants to work within forms created by Mathers, Woodman and Wescott (or, for that matter, the forms of another order created by yet others), or whether one wants to investigate the Tarot and the Kabbalah independently and allow each to reveal their intricacies and various points of possible interweaves. Levi, Mathers, Wirth and others were lead to discover some which they thought of high significance, but are these either correct or the only ones?

Each path has its merits and, in my view, the world is enriched by the complementarity of our various pursuits. Additionally, however, I also acknowledge that each has its possible limitations and cul-de-sacs.

I look forward to SlyR's posts in the Qabalah section. 


Ravenswing  18 Nov 2002 
to all--

don't all traditions begin with a speculation???

unless of course G-d HerSelf hands it to you...

(then again, might that concept (exist of g-d, i mean) be speculation???)

and what about **reality** him/her/itself???

all is personal model, pick it out as you go.

then again, i might be totally wrong, but does it matter?

we're here for the trip, let's make it majickal (tickets, please)

have a happy monday
ravin' 


Kiama  18 Nov 2002 
Right now, I am beginning to change my ideas of Tarot and Qaballah. Before, I was totally against it, because of the fact that the original Qaballah had nothing to do with Tarot.

But I've now come to a point in my Tarot studies, where I have basically run out of things to study, and am left only with Hermeticism and Qaballah! So, I really don't care if any of the above is speculation, or whether Qaballah and Tarot were originally linked!

After all, Divination and Tarot were never originally linked, but most people on this forum swear by it! And I just want stuff to fill my brain...

Kiama 


Laurel  18 Nov 2002 
Excellent thread.

As one of those folks who attempts to "live the Kabbalah" and seen discrepencies and opinions vary dramatically in how to do so even just in formal commentaries on the Sefer Yetzirah much less getting tarot involved... I have to agree with jmb (I do that a lot, I just realized).

Don't take pathworking and even the core diagram of the Tree of Life too literally. They're models, and all models have limits. The point is to grow and Know Thyself. Beyond Knowing Thyself, the Key to Wellbeing is "Nothing To Excess". Judaic Kabbalah (or any form of mysticism) and Hermetic Qabalah (or any form of ceremonial magic) are tools for for achieving both. Thinking in literal terms like spiritual growth as a straight line, a progression through the trumps or along the twenty-two paths is good only as allegory- albeit powerful allegory.

Laurel 


DeLani  19 Nov 2002 
Ah, yes, the debate rages on!
I believe that speculation is not the same as opinion (this is based on American English journalistic style). A speculation is an assumption or inference of a fact - a hypothesis. An opinion is a subjective reaction to (or judgement of) something, or a belief about something unverifiable. Since we're talking about something pretty unverifiable (spiritual journeys and mystical traditions), all we can do is offer opinions. Just because an opinion is very old it is no more "verifiable" or "correct." I suppose that I'm offending the orthodox now! Sorry! :)
Anyway, like I said, I'm not a serious Kabbalist. My mom is serious enough for the both of us...But as SlyR said, the Tarot/Kabbala associations are a fairly recent invention (or discovery, if you prefer). Since I don't necessarily agree with the whole worldview of the Kabbala, I suppose I "shouldn't" give opinions about it. Not that that ever stopped me!
But the thread was about the Fool's Journey, and two different ways to look at it. Really, my point is there are infinite ways to look at it and travel it.
D. 


SlyR  19 Nov 2002 
I'd like to address a couple posters directly:

First, jmd:
I am rather inspired by your apparent familiarity with the great authors on the subject. I'm going to keep an eye on you if you don't mind. I've got a lot to learn, and it's good to see folks that are familiar with my particular field of interest hanging out on this forum.

Ravenswing:
You ask, "don't all traditions begin with a speculation???"
Answer 1: No. Think about that statement for a second.
What is a tradition? A practice or observance that is repeated over a great deal of time, by many people? If so, then what about a tradition like, say, the Academy Awards? Or Independence Day? Were they started by mere speculation? Or wasn't one planned by a committee, and the other imposed on us by the tide of history? No speculation there.
Answer 2: Not if you believe in a Deity-based religion, in which case the tradition was specifically laid out for you by a higher power.
Answer 3: Maybe. But by defending speculative viewpoints as the foundation of tradition you are implying that the humble posters on this forum are on the verge of creating a new tradition. That's a bit ambitious of a claim. It represents the "They Thought Columbus Was Crazy" logical fallacy, which holds no water in matters of debate.
Answer 4: Irrelevant question. We're not trying to dictate a new tradition; we're simply exchanging viewpoints. If I criticize a viewpoint by claiming that it is speculative, that's just my opinion about another man's thoughts. Heck, I might even change my mind. I have been known to. 


SlyR  19 Nov 2002 
"unless of course G-d HerSelf hands it to you..."

BTW, the Qabalistic model of God encompasses both male and female essence, yin and yang, Chockmah and Binah. If God is completeness in all respects, then he (I use "he" for the mere sake of convenience) must contain both genders.

Hence the usage of "Elohim" in Genesis.

Just sayin'.

;^p 


zander770  19 Nov 2002 
:confused:
Quote:
Originally posted by jmd
Those who accept the Golden Dawn's Tarot placements upon the Sephirot's 'connecting paths' will either seek to follow the Tarot as a descent into the world (ie, assume one's position in Kether and move towards Malkut), or seek to rise upon the Tree, leading to an inverse Tarot journey. Is either of these warranted?

Personally, I place I/XI within Malkut, II/XII within Yesod, &c..


the g.:d.: ALWAYS descends, from 1--to--10.

o...i see you think that daath is a sephorot (or: do you think that the magician is "IN"? the crown and not "BETWIXT" malkut and binah, on the twelveth path)? this is also the way ("descend") the way the g.:d.: grade degrees are earned.

~Z~700
:T2P 


jmd  19 Nov 2002 
Good to see I'll have a watchful eye on my posts ;) You may also want to check my posts in the Qabalah Study section - and please, do add to these, both of you! As to being 'inspired' by my apparent familiarity with the authors mentioned, I have certainly studied those and others, but would certainly not be able to recall what each says (some I haven't read for many years).

With regards to Da'at, it is clearly, if one accepts the authority of the Sefer Yetzirah, not a Sefirah - and I have posted the same in various earlier posts.

With regards to Zander770's post, I presume a rushed error was made unintentionally. With the G.D., the Magician is placed on the so-called twelfth path connecting Keter and Binah (not Malkut and Binah - unless there is a path postulated by a different GD of which I remain unaware!).

For the sake of explanation, the reason this is called the twelfth path is iin defference to a little text called the thirty-two paths of Wisdom, which the GD links to the ten Sefirot and the twenty-two letters and interconnecting Sefirotic paths. As the first ten correspond to the Sefirot, the eleventh connects Keter and Hockmah, the twelfth Keter and Binah, and the thirteenth Keter and Tifaret (crossing the Abyss, and Da'at!).

As the GD also begins the Tarot sequence with the Fool (which it numerates zero), the eleventh is placed with the Fool, and the twelfth with the Magician (&c.).

Even the GD, however, has clear ascending grades, beginning before the entry into Malkut. Again for the sake of simple explanation, the reason for the grade numeration is quite simple and straightforward (as it should be, in my view): the first grade, '1' (following the Zelator 0=0) in Malkut (the tenth Sefirah) is labelled, appropriately, 1=10, the second, in Yesod, 2=9, &c.

With regards to the original thread, however, this ascending sequence is not itself linked to the Tarot, except in the indirect sense that each Sefirotic 'temple' has gates to the 'paths' leading to other Sefirot, and hence GD associated Tarot cards. With the 1=10, then, XXI the World, XX Judgement and XIX the Sun can be accessed.

There is nothing here said which hasn't been published before by some of the authors I have mentioned earlier, and certainly consider that GD materials is worthy of further investigation. 


Kiama  19 Nov 2002 
*Kiama's brain goes... SQUUIISH*

Are there any books out there that I could obtain from my local library, which would be useful for me? Bearing in mind I am a complete beginner to the studies of Qabalah.

Kiama 


Ravenswing  19 Nov 2002 
[quote]Originally posted by SlyR
[b]I'd like to address a couple posters directly:


Ravenswing:
You ask, "don't all traditions begin with a speculation???"
Answer 1: No. Think about that statement for a second.
What is a tradition? A practice or observance that is repeated over a great deal of time, by many people? If so, then what about a tradition like, say, the Academy Awards? Or Independence Day? Were they started by mere speculation? Or wasn't one planned by a committee, and the other imposed on us by the tide of history? No speculation there.


*** I am not using that definition of tradition. i think that you realize that.***


Answer 3: Maybe. But by defending speculative viewpoints as the foundation of tradition you are implying that the humble posters on this forum are on the verge of creating a new tradition. That's a bit ambitious of a claim. It represents the "They Thought Columbus Was Crazy" logical fallacy, which holds no water in matters of debate.


***for the last twenty years, i have been working out a system paralleling the GD, but centered around an english-based gematria. it works.

('justification' for this mind-set and model:

“Let us then walk in the right way, let us speak before God with heart and mouth alike opened, in our own maternal language, since how can you pretend to obtain any Grace from the Lord, if ye yourselves know not what ye ask? Yet, however, the number of those who lose themselves utterly in vanity is infinite; many say that the Grecian language is more agreeable to God, it may be true that it was perhaps at one time, but how many among us to-day understand it perfectly, this is the reason why it would be the most senseless thing to employ it.”

from “The Book of Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage” as translated by Mathers

so why a hebrew system if our mother tongue is english???)


it is what i term a metamathemajickal system --ie first comes the mathematics ( i have a geometry of words, an algebra of numbers, and am working out the calculus of reality). from the math, you find the metaphysical parallels ('as above...'). from there you develop the practical applications.

triad is the only stable structure, so that becomes the basis....

gemetric values are therefore triples. first values in words the same, words are 'equal'. all values in words the same, words aer 'equivalent'.

'gematria' is equivalent to 'tarot'

'tree of life' = 'archetype' = 'immortal' = 'ultimate' = 'ellipsoid' = 'system'

(ellipsoid is the shape in my system wherein the tree of life resides)

the number for 'tree of life' is 101. physically a glyph for the two pillars on either side of beauty.

the gematric value for the golden mean mathematically defines itself.

and on, and on...

Answer 4: Irrelevant question. We're not trying to dictate a new tradition; we're simply exchanging viewpoints.

*** you may not be, but i am


raven 


zander770  19 Nov 2002 
Quote:
[i] . . . if our mother tongue is english???)
[/b]


me thinks it was dion fortune in her _mystical qabala_ who noted, or asked, when there was a major clamor in america for "eastern religion" in the 1960's: "why are we searching for truth in the east when we have our own system right here from the west?"

something like that.

isreal is "in the west . . ."

leat,
~Z~700
:T2P 


Laurel  19 Nov 2002 
At the risk of going off topic of the thread...

The irony here is that Dion Fortune's magical order offshoot of the Golden Dawn, the Brotherhood(?) of Light relies very heavily on Yoga and Eastern breathing techniques. She must have found a practical answer to her own question.


Laurel 


SlyR  20 Nov 2002 
Ravenswing:

You're absolutely right about native tounges being as relevant as Hebrew.

The reason, I think, that Hebrew gets so much attention is that it has millenia of historical record backing it up. Plus, the Bible was preserved in the original Hebrew. In fact, thanks to the meticulous Jewish traditions, the Bible is in fact the most well-preserved ancient religious text. That's got to count for something.

Working magick? Sure, use English all you want.
Looking for Qabalistic insight? Well, Moses didn't exactly speak English.


BTW, good luck on your research. Just keep clear of allowing your progress to support your preconcieved hypothesis, and your results could be intriguing. 


lupo138  20 Nov 2002 
and so I can´t do else but add my thoughts to it:
1) Both, Qabalah as well as the Major Arcana can be read as landmarks for personal development. Although they do not go together 100%, one can earn a lot of understanding, if one tries to combine them. (Although I do not claim to be an expert on either field)
2) The Qabalah has to be worked upon. "One grain of practical experience is worth more than hundreds of books" (quote from Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki)
3) We are in Malkuth, so the journey goes rather upwards. If we would be the Divine Force, it would go down, but at least I think my journey is rather up.
4) So standing on Malkuth, I know that Kether is Chokmah and Binah together, so representing both sexes. But the next Sephiroth is Yesod, that is quite feminine. So I have a better understanding, if I regard the Divine Force as being femine - although I know, that thinking in gender is not adequate in order to understand the sphere of Kether.

Replies welcome :) 


lupo138  20 Nov 2002 
in 1) please read map instead of landmark. Sorry, but sometimes German as my native language comes through. 


Laurel  20 Nov 2002 
Lupo, some excellent points and ones that I would agree with.

Which leads to point that if the most helpful way to work through the tree is "up" towards Kether, and with the tarot is to make the fool's/magician's journey to the world, then the traditional correspondences of Tarot to the 32 paths aren't applicable and the two have to be approached in a different manner.

Personally, I look at myself as attempting to move towards the Magician in this life, starting from the World, and then, after death, into the state of eternal potentiality of the Fool (0). But I have a particular paradigm that supports this point of view. It wouldn't be a helpful point of view for most people, and why I can see the Journey 1-22 or 0-21 as being a very relevant analogy.

Laurel 


Cerulean  20 Nov 2002 
That tarot and associated book will help you explore the 'backwards' walk.

The allegories truly are a guide, so if this pathway speaks to you, my suggestion is to check out book for the Navigators, make a list of the majors and associated keywords and list the new-to-you order of the majors in a notepad.

I took a month away from other tarots to check this out...it's not my path, though, I realized that. But if you want a truly different take, sometimes combining a new tarot structure and just pretending it's a different way of writing/presenting ideas, then this is helpful. Many of the keyword associations of the Mystic Sea seemed to correspond with Thoth-based systems to me, so after awhile the different walk through the majors just seemed a different way of presenting similar concepts to some of my more favored tarot decks.

Of course this brief note is just a suggestion---maybe not a good one to the truly dedicated student? My small survey of the Navigators of the Mystic Sea might be like telling someone to take a beginning swimming 101 to see if you like it, when your true interest might be scuba-diving. If it turns out to be a bad suggestion, please let me know---it's meant to be helpful.

Best wishes,

Mari H. 


The Qabalists do the Fool's Journey Backwards! thread was originally posted on 16 Nov 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.

 
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