Which numeration do you prefer?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	22 Nov 2002
Over the last few years, the question of Justice's and Strength's numeration has popped up on occasions. The two most common (but not sole) numbering have these as eight and eleven. Which do you prefer, irrespective as to which may be deemed 'correct'? (I obviously prefer the Marseilles numeration:))

Diana	22 Nov 2002
I voted. :D (Justice VIII, Strength XI)

Sulis	22 Nov 2002
I voted too Crystalmynx xx

Kiama	22 Nov 2002
I prefer 8 for Strength, 11 for Justice, mainly cuz that's how I learned Tarot. It doesn't make any doifference whatsoever, cuz I don't use astrology pr numerology in my readings, but it's just the way I feel right with it. I do like Robin WOod's reasons for poutting it this way though: The 8 on Strength looks the same as the lemniscate (Infinty Symbol) above the woma's head, and the 11 looks like the two pillars either side of the woman in the Justice card... Kiama

MeeWah	22 Nov 2002
I prefer 8 for Strength, 11 for Justice--which is the way I first "learned" it & also relates to the numerological sequence based on a similar view as Kiama mentioned (though the lemniscate also appears prominently on The Magician). There are decks I am interested in that have the numbering vice versa. I would appreciate it if someone (JMD?) could offer an explanation for the other association. This is a subject that has seen discussion on previously, but it has not seemed clear to me why.

Fuzzmello	22 Nov 2002
Not that I could answer! This situation is one of the most interesting I've encountered since coming to Aeclectic. Somebody spell it out for us, please... Fuzz PS Eight for Strength. Because I learned it that way.

DeLani	22 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah There are decks I am interested in that have the numbering vice versa. I would appreciate it if someone (JMD?) could offer an explanation for the other association. This is a subject that has seen discussion on previously, but it has not seemed clear to me why. [/b] The original numbering (on Marseilles-era decks) was 8 Justice, 11 Strength. Well, A.E. Waite said that that numbering was incorrect, and that he had "his reasons" for changing to the now-common 8 Strength/11 Justice numbering. Some have speculated that it was to keep the astrological correspondences in order (7 Chariot = Cancer, 9 Hermit = Virgo; therefore, #8 should be the card for Leo - Strength). But Waite himself didn't say that. Since the Waite-Smith deck was the "standard" for almost every deck published since then (1910) (Thoth and a few others excepted), the 8 Strength/11 Justice numbering is now quite common, and the one most people are familiar with. So, truly, Waite and Smith revolutionized the Tarot. Hope that answers your question.

Diana	22 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani [bthe 8 strength/11 justice numbering is now quite common, and the one most people are familiar with. so, truly, waite and smith revolutionized the tarot. hope that answers your question. [/b] I would like to pick some nits here. This numbering is the most familiar in the anglo-saxon world of Tarot. It is true that Waite and Smith revolutionised the Tarot in the anglo-saxon world. Indeed, I would say they practically introduced Tarot to the anglo-saxon world. But the world is large. In this link, you may find some things of interest: http://www.psyche.com/psyche/tarot/RevivedTarot/traditionaltarot.html

Kaz	22 Nov 2002
i voted. 8 justice, 11 strenght kaz

MeeWah	22 Nov 2002
DeLani: Thanks for the info. I had read in Waite's book that for reasons known only to himself, he changed the numbering sequence--but his lack of explanation makes no sense! My attempts to discover why have been largely fruitless. I decided to keep the sequence as 8=Strength & 11=Justice because it makes sense numerologically & astrologically. That has worked very well for me, but I am still nagged by the fact that older decks such as the Marseilles decks & the more modern (?) Thoth follow the different numbering.

MeeWah	22 Nov 2002
Diana: I shall check the link. I take it that it may shed some light on the subject. Thanks!

DeLani	22 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I would like to pick some nits here. This numbering is the most familiar in the anglo-saxon world of Tarot. Diana, You are certainly right about that. I have noticed that the European decks I've encountered (Lo Scarabeo, mostly) had the original numbering sequence, and I completely forgot about that in my post. Sorry for being such an ethnocentric pig!

kayne	23 Nov 2002
I voted either, depending on the deck. To me it really doesn't matter that much about what the numbering is because I mainly use the visual cues on the card to give me a reference for the meaning...

blue_fusion	23 Nov 2002
i chose 11 for justice, and 8 for strength, only because i'm so used to using this format in my readings, and since the cards i've used, well, use this.

Jenny-Li	23 Nov 2002
I decided to pick either, even though I'm used to the Strength-card being 8 and Justice 11. I'm learning now to work with the Cosmic Tribe, which is the other way around, and I am sure once I get to know that deck I won't have a problem with the numbers being reversed for those two. The main thing is after all the relationship one has with one's deck. Jenny :)

ShyButSly	23 Nov 2002
I voted: Strength 8, Justice 11. I'm used to it this way. Plus, Strength is my personal card(is that what it's called?, not sure), and I'd like to keep it that way.

faunabay	23 Nov 2002
Although I use decks that either so it really!! doesn't make a huge difference to me - I voted 8 Justice, 11 strength. I learned the other way around, but lately, to me, it seems to just make more sense with Justice as 8. I couldn't even give a solid reason.....just because I guess! LOL

ihcoyc	24 Nov 2002
I voted Justice VIII, Strength XI. They aren't really right, either, unless they're in Roman numerals. ;) Technically, the numbers are extraneous, not there on the earliest painted decks. And there used to be variant traditions of numbering the Trumps that differed even more widely than Mr. Waite's reassignment.

The Which numeration do you prefer? thread was originally posted on 22 Nov 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.