Dark Decks

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Emily	08 Dec 2002
I was looking through my growing collection of decks and decided to have a look through my Thoth deck. It started me wondering how many others on here have decks that they would describe as "dark" in their collections. The Thoth is the only deck I have that would qualify. Its not that I don't like them, the artwork is wonderful, very intense but I don't like the powerful/dark vibes that the deck gives off. I've read extensively of Aleister Crowley and also of the work that he and Lady Frieda Harris put into the cards and it does show, but I still feel like I have to wash my hands after handling this deck. I wish I didn't feel like this, I would love to be able to use this deck without feeling uneasy, but seeing as I've had it for well over a year, and I've tried to get to know them, I don't think this is ever going to happen but I don't want to trade it on. But this isn't only about The Thoth deck, other decks have given me "dark" vibes and I've stayed away from them so I thought I'd ask what decks you have in your collections that give you similiar vibes or you consider them "dark".

faunabay	08 Dec 2002
I feel the same way about the Thoth. I tried to get past it, but ended up trading the deck. :) Interestingly enough another deck that affects me the same way is the Sacred Rose Tarot. The eyes are WAY to creepy for me! I know there are quite a few people who see it the same way too.

truthsayer	08 Dec 2002
by your description of dark decks, i'm guessing that you mean feel evil or menacing in some way either due to the creator's influence or the deck itself. the thoth is the only i have seen in that light. after many lectures here that i should not judge the deck by the creator's personality or even judge the creator by the way history records him, i am more relaxed with the thoth. remember lady freida harris had good energy and she had lots of energy and time put into the painting of the cards. so when you hold the thoth in your hands, reflect on lady freida's contribution instead. without her lovely art, thoth wouldn't be the masterful piece of art that it is. crowley wasn't capable of painting the thoth. he was the source of her inspiration but based on my own research i truly believe much of the designs are truly her own instead of his. read this link: http://www.piranho.d/claas/olive_e.html there's other links out there on lady freida and crowley that someone here may have access to. this is the only one i can find. there is also evidence that crowley made some golden dawn members so angry that they did everything they could to ruin his reputation by staging false rumors. i'm not saying that he was a gentle kind guy. he wasn't but perhaps there was more bark than bite by what was said about him. that being said, i do have some decks other than thoth or shadowed but not evil. i like my moody decks. they are more inclined to tell me hard truths than my fav lighter ones. these would be the rohrig, knights templar, vertigo, sacred rose, light and shadow, margarete peterson, enochian, and mage the ascension. there might be some others but this is what comes immediately to mind.

Maan	08 Dec 2002
I have a few..lately i seem to be more atracted to purple and happy funny decks but there was a time that i liked things dark ;) Toth is one of them but i have never been able to read with it so i have it for study purposes Secret tarots, barbara walker had the giger but that one was to spooky for me. Maybe some more will come to mind later today ... have soooo many decks ( and still not enough LOL )

jema	08 Dec 2002
i think i may be weird here, but i don't feel that Thoth is very dark myself. it feels like a very even-balanced deck. dark for me is Barbara Walker - that must be one of the darkest i ever seen. oh and the Enochian but i still don't "know" that deck so well yet so i may be biased simply by the images looking kind of dark and a bit creepy. i do like dark decks though. i like working with them and think they have an important place in my collection. sacred rose have been on my wishlist for years. when i got my first two decks i had my eye on the sacrd rose. but i didn't get it. since then i have wanted it but yet shyed away from it at once. always buying some other deck in it's place. but i think i will invest in it soon. with the book she wrote herself of course!

Khatruman	08 Dec 2002
I think Rider Waite offers some dark images, the Death and Devil cards, and many of the Sword suit cards, and a few pentacles... As far as a completely dark deck, what about the H.P. Lovecraft deck? Peace!

aeonx	08 Dec 2002
Wow, I don't consider my Thoth dark at all! I absolutely love it, although I cannot read with it. Yet. :D This question reminds me of a discussion we had some time ago here, whether authors of decks have any 'impact' on the manufactured decks or not. Some people responded that they couldn't bear the Thoth because of Aleister Crowley. I don't agree with this view, and I don't think the spirit of the deck's author has any influence at all. :) However, there's certainly one deck I consider 'dark': The Vampire Tarot. I have never liked this one! The images are gloomy, depressing and scary. IMO. The worst thing is... Amazon actually sent me this deck, instead of the one I had ordered. *shiver* Kinda creepy that this deck showed up in my mailbox. Anyway, I got rid of it right away. Hated having it in my house even. :rolleyes: ~aeonx~

kabuki	08 Dec 2002
For years I was put off getting the Thoth deck becuase of Crowleys reputation and the fact that it was considered 'dark' ... however, recently I got it and have fallen in love with it. I don't find it sinister or dark just very interesting and beautiful ... as for the sacred rose ... this was first deck and I read it exclusively for a number of years. I found a lot of the imagery compelling and vibrant and haven't been put of by 'strange eyes' (I seem to remember them being a source of worry in other threads) ... however I never quite bonded with it's court cards (the knights especially) or the sword suit, finding them a little bit too disturbing. I seemed to prefer it's major arcana and now use it for major arcana readings only. I would say that I'm happy studying 'darker' decks and enjoy reading with them but for any personal, meditative work I far prefer using less dark decks, such as 'The arthurian tarot' ... as the figures, people and images seem a lot more personal and approachable to me

Cerulean	08 Dec 2002
Less threatening Thoths... Some people just have used other sources such as Angeles Arrien, Gerd Zieglar and Hazo Banhoff books on the Thoth to come up with creative questions. There is also a book by Rose Gwain that notes personality types for the court cards and also has a reflective emphasis on the Thoth meanings for creative self-exploration. For instance, if you take her quiz and find that you favor Cups (feeling) and then Swords (analysis) tendencies, but you're less well expressed in doing (Wands) and having physical results (Pentacles), she suggests ways to balance the under-expressed side of your tendencies. I saw a small Thoth--I mean, half the size of of the small playing card size (the playing card size is the green box by U.S. Games but NOT the greenish tinged cards)---which I was hoping to get for travel. But they didn't have copies in the small new age shop that we just happened by. So I will look for it after Xmas... Darker... Well, the Giger is dark and I've decided just plain never-mind-for-me. I see it on a shelf in a local bookstore. I almost wrote 'not knowing anyone that I like owning it', but that is wrong. If people collect that stuff, it is their private thing and I probably will just retreat into the silly land of anime, gilded tarots and whatever other tarot roads there are. Just my take, Mari H.

Ophiel	08 Dec 2002
Actually, the Thoth deck is excellent for visually showing the energy of the card in an artistic way. I see the energy lifting right off those cards. This is really a great deck to spend time with, as a meditation tool. I don't read cards so have no idea how it works that way. I don't see the darkness in this deck. Donald Kraig ("Modern Magick") suggests the Thoth deck as a good meditation focus, but suggests this might not be the best deck for reading. There are some more dark decks we haven't discussed. The focus of this post seem to settle in on the Thoth deck. I believe there is a Major Arcana only deck called the Gothic Deck that I recall has dark themes. Also, I am waiting for delivery on my most recent addition, the Tarot of the Imagination. I haven't seen the whole deck, but others have described some of the cards as dark, with some death imagery. The Enochian Magick deck is pretty energetic, so I guess you might call that dark as well. ;) I do not own this deck. And what about the vampire decks, and those more dedicated to pagan users? I bet there's a few in there that could be considered 'dark,' except for the Wiccan-inspired decks, at least those intended for the U.S. Wiccan crowd, which I understand is quite different than their English counterparts. What about the Vertigo deck, released by D.C. Comics, based on images from either Vertigo comic artists, or images from the comics themselves. I 'm not sure which. I'd like it if we discussed more dark decks!

Cerulean	08 Dec 2002
I can see people calling the Vertigo as dark. But it actually has lots of naturalistic and tangled bits that go along with skewed perceptions or humanlike figures. It also has perceivable story characters or storylines that follow some concept. In other words, there's a mapping. The ones that I call darkest has nonhuman elements usually distorted with vaguely naturalistic forms in a way that is unexplained. I'll try to find a link to one that is supposedly disturbing...the online site is experimenting and featuring pictures only and warns people it might be disturbing. To me it looks like some images of bad staging that is more irritating than dark, mixed in with some better artwork. Probably my take on what is irritating is just a skewed perception on my part. It's called the Torot, which might make it not suitable for this forum--but there might be other tarot oracles there that have a dark look (although I saw Glastonbury on there-not dark at all in my eyes). http://www.toriffic.co.uk/

Umbrae	08 Dec 2002
He he he…do you want a dark deck? Look to the Lovecraft. None of the pictures do it justice… It is so dark, I cannot recommend it for the common reader. But I love mine. :smoker:

aeonx	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae He he he…do you want a dark deck? Look to the Lovecraft. None of the pictures do it justice… Here's a link: Lovecraft Tarot. I still consider the Vampire Tarot darker. :P ~aeonx~

Ophiel	08 Dec 2002
Hi. The Vertigo deck is based on the Vertigo comics (I believe it was based on the title, "The Sandman"), of which I am a fan, and the storyline to many of the titles are dark, very dark, even apocalyptic at times. The imagery is closer to a "Nightmare On Elmstreet" than "Babes." The Five of Wands is an image of four fingers plus thumb on fire... It's a very dark deck indeed, and I'd love to own it.

Ophiel	08 Dec 2002
Here's the complete Vertigo deck viewable online: http://www.elsewhere.org/tarot/vertigo/

truthsayer	08 Dec 2002
one way i define what i see as a dark deck is to compare it against the universal or hanson roberts deck both by mhr. of course, in comparison most are going to look like dark shadows compared to it. i look at the colors used in the deck that help create the mood. i look at if the art appears realistic as in a photo montag or graphically violent pix or cartoonish or ethereal or surreal pix. even though the vertigo or the rohrig show body parts not connected to body, i don't see them as violent decks. intense-yes! they aren't filled with bright clear colors like the glastonbury. a lot depends on what you perceive as the shadow side of humanity. some see sex and violence as being on the edge. but if sexy is considered darker is sensuality as seen in the rohrig negative? darker doesn't have to mean negative. dark has positive things to offer like sensuality. personally, i love the sensuality in the rohrig but i know some ppl here don't. i don't perceive it as a light and happy go lucky deck either. not all violence is negative but realistic and perhaps a course of necessary action--for example, some sword cards in the tarot of the imagination. whether or not a deck is light or dark, negative or positive depends on personal perspective. some ppl see the hanson roberts in a negative light b/c it's perceived at times as being too sugary sweet and lacking a balance. i don't think so but that's my perception and i have respect those view points. some ppl are comfortable with the violence in the tarot of the imagination but it bothers others. the main thing is we respect the differences of each others perceptions of the decks in question.

Ophiel	08 Dec 2002
Obviously I do not agree with you. But how can you argue with someone posting as frequently as you do? lol. (I'll see what I can do!)

Emily	08 Dec 2002
Hi truthsayer, I wondered if that might be my problem, all my other decks are Rider Waite clones and I thought maybe I was caught in a sort of R/W rut, so I decided to shy away from an obvious clone and go for something a little different - the deck that caught my eye is the Crow's Magick tarot. I've seen all these cards and am now awaiting the deck itself. Some might consider this deck 'dark' but I get a good feeling when I look at the copies of the cards in the book. I also don't like the Barbara Walker tarot.

Cerulean	08 Dec 2002
Just my take on the Vertigo... I agree the Vertigo tarot is intense and many of the graphic novels of the Sandman follow an intense storyline. Probably because of my slant on the art, I feel it has intensity, darkness and strength, very moody. The original cards are clearer and have silver and lighter tints and is bigger than the later DC reprint, at least in my eyes. The original deck and book was a used bookstore find and I don't think I'll ever find that set again with that luck. Rachel Pollack's mapping of the arcana also makes a difference to me. In terms of the Sandman art as a whole, I only have a collectors edition of some of the covers because of the art. The only one of the DC Vertigo titles that I was drawn to wasn't Sandman at all, being the colloboration with the artist F. Ando. Just my thoughts. Mari H.

Ophiel	08 Dec 2002
I hope I did not give you any negative impression about my reaction to this deck. I actually like it quite a bit, and had one on order with my local comic book dealer. The special order didn't work out, and I think it has more to do with the dealer being more familiar with comics than Tarot. It's too bad. I'd still like to get it. And having read Vertigo comics for years, it would make sense I'd be wanting those cards. Actually, I like darker themes much more than sunny bunny decks. Dark energy is easily misunderstood as negative, and yet it is obviously the other half of the picture. Light would be meaningless without dark to contrast and define it.

Silverlotus	09 Dec 2002
Reading this thread got me thinking that perhaps I would like a darker deck to go with the decks I already have. I had been wanting a more fantasy feeling deck, which I recently bought. But I still feel I could use one more deck for another way to view things. Unfortunately, none of the decks mentioned here appeal to me. :( I guess I'm doomed to search. It's kind of interesting that "light" decks seem to really outnumber "dark" decks, though. Perhaps a majority of people perfer less dark images. And I guess it could be because a lot of decks are based on traditional decks, which are lighter (but still contain some dark images). Am I making any sense? :)

Cerulean	09 Dec 2002
If given the right book or frame of mind, some of the more thoughtful decks can activate insight on the shadowy nature or the underexpressed side of a suit. I agree, I wouldn't want a dark side deck for everyday---the Vertigo or some of my celtic decks are used in different situations. But if I was in a quiet time where thought and retreat needed a very different slant, sometimes I have to start from the understanding or precept that is sadder, moodier...in those instances, the Hudes or Greenwood minors sometimes brings a bit more to the surface, at least in my waking mind. But those aren't dark decks at all, just more reflective...to me. If you simply read reversals using a favored deck, using Mary Greer's book, there's a definite shadow to the lightest tale or card...A simple book called Choice-Centered Tarot by Gail Fairfield was retitled Tarot for Everyday also redefined some of my ideas of a working every-day tarot for readings...hope this isn't too off the subject. Mari H.

dangerdork	09 Dec 2002
I had problems with the Crowley deck for a long time, til I got the Giger deck. That deck disturbs the heck out of me, but I suppose as a collector I should keep it. However, I DO keep it in a completely different part of the house than the cabinet where the rest of my decks live. Not only do I not want its vibes contaminating the rest of my decks, but also it's the only deck I would prefer my 13 year old not be looking at... After seeing the Giger I didnt really find the Thoth scary at all any more. After hearing some differing sources (lastly here) say how misunderstood Crowley was, I took that deck along to the pub when I went out reading on Hallowe'en. I let all comers pick a deck (I'd brought maybe 7 decks, varying degrees of scariness) Nobody chose Thoth all night, but about 5 till midnight, I started shuffling it, psyching myself up. I was going to read for myself if necessary. I figured reading the Thoth during the "witching hour" would disspell (no pun intended) all my prejudice against it. Just as I set the deck down to cut the cards, a woman walked up. "Hi, remember me? You read my cards LAST Hallowe'en!" I vaguely remembered her face - but not the reading. "How did it turn out?" "Pretty much dead on. Want to read for me again?" "Sure." She picked up the Thoth and began to shuffle. After a few minutes, she cut the cards into three piles with her left hand. I was impressed she had remembered. OK, I was a little nervous. What if Crowley sent this woman a bunch of swords and Towers and Devils? I laid the Celtic Cross... it's my "comfort spread." I can't cite the exact cards, but think... Nine of Coins, The Sun, Six of Cups... It was the calmest, most stable and quietly content spread I have ever seen. "You know who you are and you're comfortable with yourself," I said. "You're good at what you do, you like yourself, you have strong and rewarding relationships. You have no serious problems right now and no real reason to ask for a reading. I see that you may possibly be struggling with a choice of some kind, perhaps to start out on a new venture. Maybe you're a little worried about disrupting the very nice life situation you have now. Don't worry though, The Sun here shows that whatever choice you make will be made with a clear head and will bring you great joy." "Well, you're completely right again," she said. "All that stuff you said about my life is pretty much true, but I was thinking about going back to school. I haven't made up my mind, but I'm sure I'll stay happy either way." ...and that was my Hallowe'en witching hour reading. I don't think I will ever see the Thoth as a scary deck again.

Jewel	09 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ophiel And what about the vampire decks, and those more dedicated to pagan users? I bet there's a few in there that could be considered 'dark,' except for the Wiccan-inspired decks, at least those intended for the U.S. Wiccan crowd, which I understand is quite different than their English counterparts. What about the Vertigo deck, released by D.C. Comics, based on images from either Vertigo comic artists, or images from the comics themselves. I 'm not sure which. I'd like it if we discussed more dark decks! I agree with you Ophiel. At one time I owned the Tarot of Wicca (or Wicca 2000), and also the Vertigo. I found both of these decks usettling. I could not put my finger on what exactly gave me the creeps about these decks, but I was very pleased when they each found happy homes. I also found the Bosch to be dark, but I had no doubts about what bothered me about this deck ... it luckily found a different home as well *LOL*. Other decks I found to be dark for me were the Crow's Magic, and I am sure you will all laugh but the Raider Waite! *LOL* ... the people in the Raider Wait are what make me view this deck as dark. The Londa is also somewhat dark but I really like it. Another deck I consider dark but really like is Mage the Ascencion, this one is a keeper for me. The Thoth does not feel dark to me at all.

ihcoyc	09 Dec 2002
One of the things I like about traditional decks as opposed to esoteric or theme decks is that the traditional decks do seem darker. With esoteric decks, the symbolism is somewhat "in your face;" these decks seem to lack subtlety. With the traditional decks, the figures seem enigmatic and timeless, with no obvious agendas or belief systems written into them. They stand indifferent to your attempts to ferret out the mysteries they represent. I find this attractive. The darkest traditional deck I know of is the Parisian Tarot. It qualifies as "primitive" in its production and general appearance. The Lo Scarabeo Classic Tarot are dark in a different way, especially in the court cards. They all seem somehow dissolute. (The Ancient Italian Tarot, based on the same engravings, has much less of this quality, which suggests this is the work of the Classic Tarot colourist.) Most of the Wiccan and Pagan decks I am best familiar with seem rather sunny-bunny, not dark at all. Robin Wood is not a dark deck. Old Path is not a dark deck. Motherpeace is not a dark deck.

Demonesse	09 Dec 2002
I think the Vampire is funny, rather than dark - it's simply too comic and silly to be truly dark, like the High Priestess with the Mickey Mouse bat ears. The Thoth is another that doesn't seem dark to me either - just lots of art with colours and swirly patterns. The Vertigo and especially the Baphomet, may be considered dark, though, and that is why I am quite fond of the latter. :) If you ask me, the melonhead people in the Hanson-Roberts are far scarier.

truthsayer	09 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse If you ask me, the melonhead people in the Hanson-Roberts are far scarier. ROFLAMO you know you have a point now that i've thought about it. not everyone has a scarey melon head in the deck but the ones that do seem to have some kind of genetic cranial deformity or a bad case of the mumps. }) how scarey to think there might be melon headed ppl out there posing for tarot decks... <<<<>>>>>>>

Laurel	10 Dec 2002
**mentally looks through her tarot collection** Thoth, Vertigo, Baphomet/Giger.... hmmn... guess I have a lot of 'dark' decks and would have more if I didn't spend all my money on books instead :) When I was a little girl, I used to dance to music alone in the dark. Sometimes I felt....things... inside the darkness, watching me. It made me afraid. I learned to dance any way, and to move beyond my fear. Then those...things... became simple, harmless shadows and I would feel pure ecstatic exaltation (aided no doubt by the release of endorphins by the dancing itself). I think tarot work, especially with tarots that make us afraid on some level or another, can facilitate a similar flow experience. Laurel

isthmus nekoi	10 Dec 2002
Vertigo is my main deck... I used to question whether a deck based on comics (as opposed to say, some ancient esoteric system) could serve my needs, but it has proven itself to be a very powerful deck indeed. I've never found V to be dark or unsettling, although at times, V can be like, terminally serious! I get a lot more laughs out of Rider Waite. RW is more social, my RW loves groups. V on the other hand just cuts right into the muck and demands your full concentration. I used to feel like I should try to like lighter decks. For instance Robin Wood never appealed to me, but everyone raves about it so I figured I was missing something! I guess deep down, I'm also terminally serious :P

Sara	19 Dec 2002
Oddly enough, the Morgan-Greer deck always felt strange to me. I had a nightmare involving that deck once. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to though. I've never had any problem with Thoth, I love its artwork. But I agree that the Barbara Walker deck is dark in feel. Hansen-Roberts is a little too light for me, but the ten of swords bothers me in that deck, the scene and the style just...don't go together well. Sara

Osher	19 Dec 2002
Maybe a better word than dark is menacing. Quite a few decks have a dark feel to them, and I don't just mean dark colours. Some of the cards in Cosmic are like that. Yet, there is something both menacing and powerful in the Thoth. Giger is dark, and looks menacing, but only Thoth feels menacing. Maybe's it the reputation, maybe it's the artwork, but it, well, it does feel different. Still, I suppose a powerful sportscar feels menacing, brooding with energy and power. You just have to learn to control it. In the end, it provides more back.

WolfSpirit	22 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness only Thoth feels menacing. Maybe's it the reputation, maybe it's the artwork, but it, well, it does feel different. It could be just the artwork. When I first saw this deck I knew absolutely nothing about crowley and the deck looked oppressive to me, too much in the pictures or something like that, as if it was closing in on me. I must say I don't have any dark decks...I once had the fantastical tarot but I traded it away because I did not like the people in it (shallow pale angry looking faces...I traded it to Kaz who thinks it is funny so there you go...) I would like to have crows magick though, people call this dark sometimes. And I once saw a deck with all skeletons (tarot of the death or something like that ? can't remember), that I liked as well but I don't think that was a dark deck either, some cards had cheerful skeletons :D In general I like decks with lots of natural elements in it and those decks are never dark I guess.

Trish	22 Dec 2002
I'm not really sure if I do or not. I'm most drawn to colorful, fanciful decks, so there's nothing really particularly menacing about the ones I have. My 'Cat People' deck's Devil is not even all that ominous looking. Yet he wears a scarf over his face, so perhaps the ominous quality lies in the wonder of what is not seen.

DarkElectric	24 Dec 2002
I used to have a problem with my Thoth deck too. I didn't find it menacing, but it would play with my head, and wank me around with the answers to my questions. I got fed up and put it away in a box for a few years. Recently, I took it out again. For some reason, my relationship with it has dramatically improved. Who knows, maybe the years of solitary confinement truly rehabilitated it. Or, more likely, I am experienced enough now to understand and appreciate this beautiful deck, and it has decided that I'm ready to read with it, and cooperate with me! I think it is a 'dark' deck, but I personally like dark decks. I wish I could find a reasonably priced copy of the original Vertigo. I looked at the link to the Lovecraft, and I dig that one too. I don't know, 'dark' imagery doesn't scare me. Maybe because I see a distinct and inherent philosophical difference between the concept of 'dark things'and the concept of 'evil'. In my opinion, these are two extremely different concepts.

Osher	26 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Trish My 'Cat People' deck's Devil is not even all that ominous looking. Yet he wears a scarf over his face, so perhaps the ominous quality lies in the wonder of what is not seen. The Cat People is quite a dark deck, and there is of course, the Black Tarot. I think one of the attractions of the Thoth is that it is menacing?

Phoenyx*	26 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer by your description of dark decks, i'm guessing that you mean feel evil or menacing in some way either due to the creator's influence or the deck itself. the thoth is the only i have seen in that light. after many lectures here that i should not judge the deck by the creator's personality or even judge the creator by the way history records him, i am more relaxed with the thoth. See, when I got the Thoth, I knew nothing about Crowley. I still know practically nothing, except what I read from The Book of Thoth, that he seems to have a "I'm smarter than you and I'm going to let you know it" type attitude. It's pretty sad. But, I still get that dark, creepy sort of overwhelming feeling from the deck.

MeeWah	26 Mar 2004
I do not find the Thoth dark. Its images are intricate & intense, as if imbued with pulsating energy. It was not until I acquired a non-green version that I finally saw more of the details that appear obscured by the green wash. A kind member offered a smaller non-green deck in exchange for another deck & I was amazed at the difference! Like seeing with improved vision. Of all my decks, I tend to see the Vertigo as a dark deck, which I got because I like Neil Gaiman's writings.

Nevada	26 Mar 2004
All I can say is that I love Thoth. It will probably always feel like home to me, as far as Tarot, though it was the second deck I owned. I don't find it dark, but it can be edgy. It can indeed focus in on the darkest part of a question. My advice with Thoth is not to take its edginess to heart. Over time I've made friends with certain of its cards that I could barely live with at one time. My favorites, definitely NOT dark: II Priestess, III Empress, XIX Sun, 2 of Cups, 8 of Disks, Queen of Cups and many others. If you want to use this deck, I'd also suggest not taking Mr. Crowley's writings too much to heart. He lived a life with some twists and turns that perhaps left him overly bitter. Remember who painted the cards. I suspect that a lot of the beauty of this deck can be credited to Lady Frieda Harris. Nevada

Umbrae	27 Mar 2004
Soon after I made my post way back on this thread (it’s a old thread), I sent my Lovecraft deck to a dear friend because frankly…it’s not dark enough. Giger is dark (Lovely deck). Vargo Gothic is (Gothic) dark. Tarot of the Vampires is dark. Mage: The Ascension. Vertigo. Thoth, personally I have never found dark at all, nor menacing, nor sinister (lol).

smokey	28 Mar 2004
The first deck that sprang to my mind was Giger; Very Intense! ( I wouldn't mind having this one just to see what my intuition comes up with, cuz I can't make sense of any- thing I've viewed so far.) I LUV the Vertigo, & tried to order it in the past, out of print.../ H. P. Lovecraft/ Mage:the Ascension and the Gothic Vampire Tarot. I've never considered Thoth to be dark at all. Last but not least, Vargo's Gothic, which I'm eagerly awaiting to arrive.

mingbop	28 Mar 2004
im with aeonix in that i hate the vampire deck and i wont have it in the house either..

Emily	28 Mar 2004
Ahh I remember this thread When I posted on my unhappiness at not being able to even hold a Thoth deck, it bothered me because I loved the artwork I'd seen online and couldn't understand why I was getting such a strong reaction from the deck itself - I found out why later. It was the large green tinged US Games version, I still have this deck and it still gives me the same feelings but not quite as strong because the deck has been in my collection with other decks - I now use regularly the large none-green US Games version (the new colouring) and also the standard and pocket size. I know this deck alot better now than I did in the first original posting in this thread and I can't see anything dark about them. All I can say is that I've grown and changed with both attitude and experience (I hope) :D I do think the Vampire tarot decks, both of them, and the Gothic are pretty dark but I wouldn't mind having them in my collection, especially the Gothic. :)

raeanne	29 Mar 2004
Hi all, I still wonder what people mean when they call a deck “dark”. I can think of at least three different meanings: A. using a lot of dark colors and black (Tarot of the Cat People fits this category for me.) B. evil, meanness, and torture (Oh, I hate to be judgmental but I suppose the H. R. Geiger Tarot would fit here.) C. exploring all sides of the human psyche (This is definitely a category for the Thoth deck.) So, depending on the definition, a lot of very different decks could be called “dark”.

Emily	29 Mar 2004
I too think there are different catagories of dark. Darkly coloured decks like the Crow's Magick, but not dark in the vibes it gives off - The Bosch, to me, is a dark disturbing deck, also the Barbara Walker - ones I wouldn't have in my collection. The Thoth, dark and deeply intriguing but in vibes not colour, the same as the Tarot of the Spirit and also I think the Gothic, although I don't have that deck. Still the classic 'dark' deck for me is the green tinged Thoth, its not dark in colour but its an uncomfortable deck to use, although, as I posted earlier, it does seem to be growing on me.

The Dark Decks thread was originally posted on 08 Dec 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.