Do you have to "believe" in Tarot for it to work?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	31 Dec 2002
HI. Can one be a total aetheist and have it still "work"? Can Tarot still be meaningful even if Angels don't line up the cards?

bec	31 Dec 2002
Hehe, this is one of my favorites. I got one girl come to me, ask for a reading - just for fun. She told me she didn't believe it, but still ..... I said, I don't care if you believe or not, nor do my cards - they still work :P Answer: you dont have to believe, and you dont have to be an angle. IMO

VGimlet	31 Dec 2002
Not at all. If you hang out here for awhile, you'll find everyone from Christians to athiests, and everything in between. From those who think angels line up the cards to others who feel that they are a psychological tool, or even just a game. For myself, tarot has nothing to do with religion, and it's always worked for me. :D of course, YMMV.

lunalafey	31 Dec 2002
do you have to believe in tarot or a higher power? It has always been my thought that what ever you want to believe, shall be. Perhaps cards won't work in the hands of a non- believer, because they reject the cards. But if the reader was a believer, of course they would work. Now perhaps the non-believer's time has come and the cards in anyones hands would give a very powerful message.

Thirteen	31 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden HI. Can one be a total aetheist and have it still "work"? Can Tarot still be meaningful even if Angels don't line up the cards? Well, logically speaking, if it doesn't work, then belief won't help, and if it does work, disbelief won't stop it. So I'd have to say yes, one can be an aetheist and still have it "work." We're not trying to ressurect Tinkerbell here.

bec	31 Dec 2002
We're not trying to ressurect Tinkerbell here. ROFLMAO Thirteen :D

RedWood	31 Dec 2002
I have to agree with everyone else..it works..specially if you are looking at the symbols :eek: Tinkerbell is DEAD!!! :eek: :confused:

Vita-morte	31 Dec 2002
I don't really look at it as angels lining up the cards, but more as some deep part of me telling me how to shuffle and when to stop. I do like trying to find the psychological connections with the cards. If it helps, I'm learning to use them and I am an atheist.

tarotbear	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden HI. Can one be a total aetheist and have it still "work"? Can Tarot still be meaningful even if Angels don't line up the cards? Angels lining up the cards? What the HELL are you talking about? Tarot is a divination system, NOT a religious practice.

Kissa	01 Jan 2003
I consider tarot to be a mirror that I hold in front of my soul. The archetypes presented in the cards help me think about myself, my personality, my way of reacting to my environment. Cards always bring a new light to issues that sounded sooo complicated. In fact, being able to sit down quietly -- away from job and family worries--, draw card(s) even without a precise question on mind and think efficiently and with serenity about one's situation doesn't have nothing to do with religion, belief or divination. This is my conception of tarot. Many ppl here don't share it, they have a very mystical relationship to their cards, use rituals and do spells that involve belief and religion. I personnally would have difficulties in believing that a mass-product item made of cardboard and environmental unfriendly colour ink can have any magical power. I think magick is within your heart, the commitment you make to be honestly in contact with your inner self is the real magick, whatever tool you choose to use. That's why every effort made to have a stronger connection to your inner world is to be respected, so YOU decide what you do with your cards and how you consider them. Cards are the TOOL not the PURPOSE. IMHO Kissa

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
<> Well Mr. Grumpy Tarotbear, angels lining up the cards sound silly to me too, obviously or I wouldn't have mentioned it....but I got this quote directly the thread "What are your particular beliefs" Quote: Originally posted by rota Tarot works because there are a bunch of angels who put the cards in order when somebody asks a question. Pretty simple, really. I am sure the poster was just being cute, or poetic, or both, but I thought it summed up precisely the belief I lack!! And I though "uh-oh!" The thread about everyone's particular beliefs is quite fascinating. No, clearly Tarot IS a kind of religious practice or at least a spiritual tool, not just a divination system. I think I am attracted to Tarot exactly because I AM an aetheist, and wishing not to be....

Demonesse	01 Jan 2003
- Angels lining up the cards? What the HELL are you talking about? - ----Tarotbear Uhhh. Why the A-bomb level reaction? I'm assuming the part about angels lining up the cards was more metaphorical; in any case, if anyone thinks the cards are inspired by something beyond the mortal realm (be it religious or otherwise), I think they have every right to do so without being blasted like that. Firemaiden: What is your definition of whether it "works" or not? If by "work" you mean helping you to see issues from different perspectives and gaining psychological insight into yourself and others, I'd say it definitely works for anyone with a smidgen of intelligence and intuition. If by "work" you mean being able to create spells, have tea with spirits and predict the new jackpot number with your cards, I'd give you an enthusiastic NO. It's not that I think these things cannot be done, I simply do not believe that they are achievable through the study of Tarot; that is why I refuse to make a ritual out of Tarot with candles and cloths and meditation. (Although everyone here is free to contradict me.) - I think magick is within your heart, the commitment you make to be honestly in contact with your inner self is the real magick, whatever tool you choose to use. That's why every effort made to have a stronger connection to your inner world is to be respected, so YOU decide what you do with your cards and how you consider them. Cards are the TOOL not the PURPOSE. - ---- Kissa. My thoughts exactly.

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa I consider tarot to be a mirror that I hold in front of my soul. The archetypes presented in the cards help me think about myself, my personality, my way of reacting to my environment. [...] I think magick is within your heart, the commitment you make to be honestly in contact with your inner self is the real magick, whatever tool you choose to use. That's why every effort made to have a stronger connection to your inner world is to be respected, so YOU decide what you do with your cards and how you consider them. Cards are the TOOL not the PURPOSE. YES THAT IS BEAUTIFUL !!! THAT IS SOMETHING I CAN BELIEVE IN!!

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse Firemaiden: What is your defintion of whether it "works" or not? If by "work" you mean helping you to see issues from different perspectives and gaining psychological insight into yourself and others, I'd say it definitely works for anyone with a smidgen of intelligence and intuition. If by "work" you mean being able to create spells, have tea with spirits and predict the new jackpot number with your cards, I'd give you an enthusiastic NO. It's not that I think these things cannot be done, I simply do not believe that they are achievable through the study of Tarot; that is why I refuse to make a ritual out of Tarot with candles and cloths and meditation. (Although everyone here is free to contradict me.). Thank you for putting things so clearly!!! I admit, when I wrote the question, I sort of had know idea what "it works" really meant!!! hahahah. I was sort of hoping that would be part of the answer! And so it was. Thank you!

MystiqueMoonlight	01 Jan 2003
:) I never heard that theory about angels lining up the cards. I suppose if you believe in angels it is a relevant point. But as Thirteen has indicated you don't have to be of a particular faith to use or read the cards. On a more funnier side Tarotbears less than eloquent statement does seem to carry an oxymoron. I mean "hell" and "angels" in the one sentence is kinda silly if you were a christian LOL

Mojo	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden The thread about everyone's particular beliefs is quite fascinating. No, clearly Tarot IS a kind of religious practice or at least a spiritual tool, not just a divination system. [stepping up onto soapbox] Sorry firemaiden, but if you use the typical Aeclectic member as a guide for this, you're going to frustrate yourself... some of these people will turn just about anything into a spiritual quest. I'm constantly rolling my eyes around here, but sometimes I have to respond exactly like Tarotbear when someone comes up with something so outrageous that it just cannot be left without comment (Tarotbear, if you hadn't made a comment about the "angels" nonsense, surely I would have!) Tarot is NOT a religious practice, despite what some people say. I've said it hundreds of times on these forums, it's a card game. It was created as a card game and that's all it will ever be. Sure, some people use the cards for divination (me included), and some people use them for meditation, and some people use them for self-discovery, and some for casting spells or other such nonsense. But it still doesn't change the fact that they're just cards. Most Christian religions use wine as part of their sacraments, but that doesn't make wine a religious symbol. Do they work? Yes, of course they work, but only to the limits that you place on them yourself. They're just tools, there is no power in them. Zero. Zip. Nada. They have no personalities, they have no feelings, they are not capable of thought, or memory, or behavior in any fashion. They are inanimate objects. Period. If you use them for divination, it's YOU who is doing the divining, not the cards. You use your own intuition using the cards just as a guide. Angels didn't lay them out and neither did any other invisible force of the universe. You'll hear all sorts of interesting theories about how the cards are "guided" when you lay them out. The "collective unconscious," fate, god or goddess, and even the ever whacky "scientific" explanation of quantum physics. You can choose to believe any of these, or you can just allow yourself to actually believe that things can be random. Regardless, you read them and you use your own intellect and intuition in creating meanings. It works if you let it work. [stepping off soapbox]

fairyhedgehog	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden HI. Can one be a total aetheist and have it still "work"? Yes: I am and it does. Quote: Can Tarot still be meaningful even if Angels don't line up the cards? Definitely. I believe that the fall of the cards is truly random although I behave as though there is some sort of synchronicity between my life and the cards. And it works :) I believe that the reason it "works" is because of the way the human mind works: using images, making sense, making stories, seeing connections. As to what it does when it works: it stirs my creativity, it gives me insights into myself and my situation and it's fun. It hasn't told me the future yet, but who knows ;)

Demonesse	01 Jan 2003
I believe that the reason it "works" is because of the way the human mind works: using images, making sense, making stories, seeing connections. ---fairyhedgehog Precisely. And I believe we rationalize the images the cards present as well, to make them "fit" the situation at hand.

tarotbear	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight :) On a more funnier side Tarotbears less than eloquent statement does seem to carry an oxymoron. I mean "hell" and "angels" in the one sentence is kinda silly if you were a christian LOL Good! Someone caught it! Since I don't apologise, I'm not going to. However- Firemaiden - you say that in spite of what everyone here has said that you believe Tarot IS a religious practice. You are wrong. Tarot is a tool, just like a hammer. Because you can swing a hammer and hit a nail does not make you a master builder. Using tarot may make you more in tune with your inner self, more in tune with the world around you, even help reveal things you never thought of. To me, your letters scream that you are despirately trying to find SOMETHING to believe in. Like the disturbed young man in EQUUS who turned a horse into God, believing in the power of tarot is not and will not make you a spiritual or religious person, or lead you to God. It may make you a better person than you are, but it is not going to lead you anywhere but into yourself. Belief in a deity has some other purpose- to get you into Heaven, Valhallah, front row tickets to a Mets game or a parking place at the mall. Do not deify Tarot or it's purposes. If that is what you seek you will have an empty search. To quote Doreen Valiente: "...and if thou thinkest to seek for me, know that thy seeking and yearning will avail thee not unless thou knowest the mystery; that if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou shall never find it without thee." Forget the "Gods and Monsters" routine. Learn to read the cards and use them -- you will never cease to be amazed.

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
To all of you, thank you for your wonderful, insightful, inspirational answers!! Don't laugh, it is really quite a relief to hear you say you can be an aetheist and still get something out of the cards. Now I feel I have permission to get something out them, even though I am suuuuuuuuch a non believer. You are all so wonderful!! Thank you!!

tarotbear	01 Jan 2003
Good, firemaiden - Never take anything said by members of this forum personally. But you have to admit- when one reads an outrageous statement it provokes an equal and opposite outrageous answer.

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear But you have to admit- when one reads an outrageous statement it provokes an equal and opposite outrageous answer. How true, dear Mr. previously grumpy tarotbear. However, when one is such a non believer as I, just about every other sentence out of people's mouths shocks me, so I have gotten used to just shaking my head solemnly and chalking it up to poetry.

lupo138	01 Jan 2003
1) the cards work, it is of no importance what you believe. ( I would like to know why, but this would be off topic) 2) I have never heard about a religion that says that Tarot would be part of "their beliefs" or something similar. and to Tarotbear: Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear To quote Doreen Valiente: "...and if thou thinkest to seek for me, know that thy seeking and yearning will avail thee not unless thou knowest the mystery; that if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou shall never find it without thee." errrr. Not religious at all. Not at all. Really not. Absolutely not ;)

Khatruman	01 Jan 2003
I am of the opinion that for anything to work there must be first belief. If you want something to work, you must at first believe that it will. My favorite story involves the four-minute mile. For decades, it was believed that nobody could run a mile under four minutes. After all, nobody had. Then, someone finally did it, finally ran a mile under four minutes. Within that same year, after nobody had ever done it, suddenly the four-minute mile was broken several times. What was different? It was done, so it was no longer possible to believe that it couldn't be done. What you believe about the cards is how they are going to work. If you think they are guided by hosts of angels, then you will see those angels at work, if you believe that they will draw out the deep mysterious unconscious inside our minds and the Mind running through us all, then that is exactly what they will do. Life is what you believe it will be. Peace!

MystiqueMoonlight	01 Jan 2003
Tarotbear - I suspect if someone said vanilla makes the cards work you would say what the chocolate does vanilla have to do with it :) I hope ppl this year don't take too many comments to personal heart.

Kiama	01 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden HI. Can one be a total aetheist and have it still "work"? Can Tarot still be meaningful even if Angels don't line up the cards? Personally I feel the thing that makes arot work is the reader: It's the reader giving the interpretation, and thus it is up to them what the cards mean and what the reading says. They make arot work IMO, not a deity or set of angels. Many peopel who come to me for readings scoff and say that means Tarot is useless, but I don't see it that way: Does it matter where you get your guidance from, as long as it's good guidance? Does it matter where you get the info about your fture from, as long as it's accurate? Good question Firemaiden! Kiama

Alex	01 Jan 2003
Mojo, even though I tend to agree with you, we have to be careful here and remember that the modern world view is directly influenced by science. Science is akin to religion in two important aspects: 1) it is a belief system that partly relies on faith 2) for most part, "scientific knowledge" is enforced by the institutions that foster it, rather than by the direct challenge of it's postulates. The consequence of this state of affairs is that some of our modern world view is based on faith rather than the knowledge of "the truth". I don't believe cards have personalities and I'm often amused by the people who believe otherwise; but I cannot be so sure that "the truth" and what I believe in are the same thing. I have spent a fair amount of time discussing about the nature of my work and whether one can define it in terms of science or not. The only reason why I ever spent my time on it is that we must know how to defend it in terms of science in order to get funding from the National Science Foundation. Discussing whether the Tarot is a belief system, a religion, a way to communicate with God or a cards game is of relatively little importance, as I see it, *unless* there is a purpose to trying to classify it under any of these categories. I think that certain beliefs held by a lot of the people in this forum are relatively harmless given the present state of affairs in the world. It does not bother me much. My question would be, why does it matter, that certain people believe these harmless things, and what purpose there is to classifying the Tarot as "religion", "cards game" or whatever else? From a practical standpoint, I mean. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Mojo [stepping up onto soapbox] Do they work? Yes, of course they work, but only to the limits that you place on them yourself. They're just tools, there is no power in them. Zero. Zip. Nada. They have no personalities, they have no feelings, they are not capable of thought, or memory, or behavior in any fashion. They are inanimate objects. Period. [stepping off soapbox]

Sea Sprite	01 Jan 2003
Re: We're not trying to ressurect Tinkerbell here. ROFL...thanks thirteen for the laughs! ;) Sea Sprite :CL

HudsonGray	01 Jan 2003
I've always figured the strongest connection the cards have to you is as a doorway to your subconscious. You pick up tons of information that isn't accessable to the conscious mind every single day, it's all there down deep. Using tarot helps connect with it (where some see angels, I say they see a portion of their own self that they rarely have the ability to communicate with). Tarot is a tool, I don't look at it as a spiritual system any more than meditation is a spiritual system. That's a tool too (meditation I mean). It works regardless of what you believe spiritually, so accepting that it connects somewhere is maybe all you need to do. It connects & it gives you what you ask of it.

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
um...science based on a belief system? what belief system?

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
Sea Sprite, how the ******* do you do that blue???

HudsonGray	01 Jan 2003
Well, SOME of the world view of science IS based on a different belief system, there's very little that's PURE science (outside of mathmatics). A lot of it is religion based. For instance, science dictates that any creature with a nervous system feels pain, right? Even planaria & 'primitive' life forms react to pain 'stimulus' (interesting word stimulus, sometimes you can call it torment or torture). Knowing that animals feel pain, still for the longest time veterinarian didn't use pain killers on dogs, cats, horses, etc. after operations, they let the animal just deal with the pain. If you asked the vet for a pain killer back in the 1970's they'd have looked at you like you were crazy (yes, I had the experience.). Now they do it. Back then they didn't, and they DID have safe pain killers to dispense, they just didn't feel it necessary even after setting a bone or with tooth extraction. Back then animals weren't 'people', therefore they didn't FEEL like we did, there was no need to supply pain killer to help them through times like that. Grief in animals wasn't recognized by the scientific world either, though most pet owners recognise it in their animals & it's accepted now that the animal world DOES have a connection like that just as we do. The hard science would say 'yes, pain does get felt by a dog after a bone is set with a metal rod & 4 screws). The vet thinking at the time says 'they're not people, they have a mysterious way of not feeling pain because we don't recognize that they do'. Sometimes it takes a while for thinking to catch up with science. In the past, people like Galileo were shouted down for going against the common way of thinking & relying on what science said. The sun revolved around the earth, everybody knew that. Humanity came from Adam & Eve. Everybody knew that. You can't break the sound barrier, everybody knew that. You can't go faster than the speed of light, everybody knew that. Culture puts more pressure on science than a lot of people know. Look at the current stem cell research....at least other countries are advanced enough scientifically to pick up where we got pounded into the ground. They might find the cure for Alzheimers & MS and other diseases. When fear of one thing stops all research across the board, that's when a belief system interferes with science & if it is constantly applied, the science shifts & HAS to become so adapted it does become based on it in a way for any advancement in that area to be made. (Ok, if that just came out completely incoherent, my fault, I need to go get something to eat).

Alex	01 Jan 2003
Science is a belief system which aims to minimize faith and to rely on "objective methodologies to acquiere knowledge". However, there are two assumptions in science which musty be taken entirely on faith. 1) There exists an external objective reality 2) There exists some sort of uniformity through time 2.a) the universe has structure 2. b) predictions and generalizations are possible. A scientific belief can only be true if the basic assumptions of science are true, and absolute certainty cannot be obtained due to the problems inherited from subjectivity. Therefore, knowledge derive from/subjected to test by/ the scientific method also relies on faith. Hope that suffices. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden um...science based on a belief system? what belief system?

Alex	01 Jan 2003
for years acupunture had been rejected as a valid healing system because it was not considered to be "scientifically valid". So I'll tell ya this personal story: I almost died of Asthma at the age of 25 while under a treatment that was "scientifically valid". Covered by insurance is another name for it. OK. One day I was laying in the emergency room with tubes all over me and I though "that sucks". So as soon as I got out of there I found myself a Chinese practitioner. I had to pay the entire treatment from my pocket cause it was not "scientifically proven to be valid". Guess what. Two things have happened then since: 1) after 3 months of nails being pinned all over me, I was never again admitted to a hospital because I could not breath. There have been ten years already 2) in the meanwhile people have decided acupuncture is "scientifically sound" and insurance now covers for it. However, there have been decades of ignorance in which "science" denied many, many people the right to their health. We have to stop believing in "science" and start thinking. Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray Culture puts more pressure on science than a lot of people know.

firemaiden	01 Jan 2003
That was fascinating, thanks! Glad I asked.

tarotbear	02 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Tarotbear - I suspect if someone said vanilla makes the cards work you would say what the chocolate does vanilla have to do with it :) Nope. I hate chocolate. I'd have said PISTACHIO !

zander770	02 Jan 2003
you just have to use it, that's all (how many scientific reports and documented accounts will it take you, ???) i wish i could macrome. ~770

MystiqueMoonlight	02 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear Nope. I hate chocolate. I'd have said PISTACHIO ! Oh nuts !!!

Fuzzmello	02 Jan 2003
Umm, ahh, no, you don't have to believe in Tarot for it to work. But those other answers were good, too. Fuzz

Sulis	02 Jan 2003
Some things just are and it matters not a jot whether people believe in them or not, tarot IMHO is one of these things. It works and that`s that. Crystalmynx xx

Webfoot	02 Jan 2003
“I don't believe cards have personalities and I'm often amused by the people who believe otherwise . . .” Alex “They're just tools, there is no power in them. Zero. Zip. Nada. They have no personalities, they have no feelings, they are not capable of thought, or memory, or behavior in any fashion. They are inanimate objects. Period.” Mojo Just read this whole thread. Jeez! I have one question—well, only one I’ll mention right now. What’s wrong with personification? Heck, I’m sure there are a number of us who talk to their computers and cars. Guys name their boats, certain parts of their anatomy. We develop Relationships with objects—books, songs, a favorite jacket, toys. I know the Magician card is not suddenly going to pop up and walk across the room. If he did I’d probably have a heart attack. But, he is still is some sense alive for me. And so is Tinkerbell.

tarotbear	03 Jan 2003
"What's wrong with personification?" --webfoot Nothing that I can see. However, in regards to inanimate objects being incapable of memory...a wedding band is an inanimate object, yet in the hand of a psycometrist (sp?), that wedding band is a wealth of knowledge about the life, personality, trials of the person who wore it, even if they are long dead! One of my theories is that when you are studying your cards, you pick up the "x' card and say 'This is a card about "____".' You do this many times in the course of your studies. You do this with the whole deck, imprinting each card (consciously or unconsciously) as you do. One day, the person shuffling the cards says "Tell me about 'x' " - and sonofabitch! Doesn't that card show up! This is one of my theories about just why the appropriate cards come up in a spread, and why reading that ludicrous statement (first post in this thread) about the cards being "lined up by angels" in blue satin sashes or something knocked me on the floor- laughing my ass off!

Kazz	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear and why reading that ludicrous statement (first post in this thread) about the cards being "lined up by angels" in blue satin sashes or something knocked me on the floor- laughing my ass off! Hang on just a minute!! There are some people who "believe" that angels DO line up the cards.......and to them they probably do. Different people use tarot for all sorts of different reasons, religious reasons, self discovery, divination, meditation, spells,etc.etc...whatever it is for you, that's fine, and we respect it....Aeclectic is a community for people with 'common' interests and whether or not you think that they may be ''LUDICROUS" in what they believe in, it should be said as constructive critisism, not flat out disrespect! Firemaiden........Personally, I think you have to have some degree of belief in something for it to work for you....as far as being religious..I am not, but I believe in the tarot, and it works for me. I tell my kids, that if you believe in Santa, then he will come....... but in saying that, there is nothing wrong in NOT believing, but then why would you bother and what would be the point! Cheers Kazz :TQC

bec	03 Jan 2003
“I don't believe cards have personalities and I'm often amused by the people who believe otherwise . . .” Alex *holding my hands over their small and very sensitive ears here* hush hush now my babies, dont believe a word you hear.

firemaiden	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear To me, your letters scream that you are despirately trying to find SOMETHING to believe in. Well....what led me to the cards in the first place was a story I was writing called ..yikes…“LETTERS FROM THE WALL”. It was to be a magic-realism/autobiography/record of a year in Berlin. I began writing because of a blinding dream I had one night, after falling absurdly and inappropriately in love – IN the dream, a fairy (a boy fairy) is recalled from earth by the boss…dances a farewell ballet, then flies through the window to THE OTHER SIDE…alas…but misery of miseries, and the poor fairy falls into the bleak eternal abyss. The person in the dream watching the dream says, “well if it is like that, then I am leaving too”. She opens the door to go outside, but ALAS there is no outside!! She falls to her death into the eternal unending black abyss… Police come to the door and shine there flashlights inside to see what is the matter. But they cannot see inside the house!! We were as non-existent to the police shining outside shining their flashlights through the grate as the other side was to the angel and the fairy who fell to their deaths. In this period of attempted writing, I was sleeping under a painting (provided by the rental agency in Berlin) by Miro, called “Naissance du jour”. There were just dots and squiggles in the painting. But every morning when I woke up, I saw more faces in the in the dots, -- this painting is one big ink-blob test, one big Rorschach card. After months of waking up under this painting the coincidences began to break my head – there was an angel in clouds reaching a hand down and pulling a girl up into the sky, there were japanese deities, there were George and Martha Washington ( american deities), there was a burlesque Pan-God, etc. I later found out, by research on the internet, that all these dots were meant to convey the birth of day, birth of the sun, that Miro was profoundly catholic, and that he never considered any of his paintings to be abstract— I came across Alistair Crowley’s writings and was stunned by the correspondance between his Universe card, and this Miro painting, which was after all depicting the birth of the universe… In the story I had going a dialogue between myself, the non-believer, and visiting angels, who would come in clanking their little toys, the halo, the bows and arrows, and tripping over their long white gowns. The angels in the story said, “DON’T YOU SEE THE UNIVERSE IS TRYING TO SPEAK TO YOU” --and I had to answer, “well, no, I think rather it is my mind connecting the dots --And then the angel would answer ‘DON’T YOU SEE IT IS THE SAME THING’ (Nothing = everything=the abyss = eternity = zero=infinity, etc.) --And I would answer, “no I don’t see at all, I think it is rather quite the opposite”. Now it comes to me --Belief is totally beside the point, isn’t it. Belief is just the frontal lobes agreeing to come along or not. What I am really interested in, is not belief, but experience., experiencing something magical. When the tarot speaks to me, that is magic. Indeed.

Kazz	05 Jan 2003
By the way Firemaiden, Welcome and it's nice to meet you...lol:D Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden When the tarot speaks to me, that is magic. Indeed. So...you must BELIEVE that the tarot speaks to you??...Mmm!! and you BELIEVE that it is magic?? don't you?....so isn't that saying that you DO BELIEVE??? Cheers Kazz :TQC

Alex	05 Jan 2003
only a portion of what I have written you made me sound totally intolerant. Yet I was just defending the contrary: that people have the right to their beliefs no matter how strange they might look to me. This thread has grown out of proportion and I just can't keep up. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Webfoot “I don't believe cards have personalities and I'm often amused by the people who believe otherwise . . .” Alex

tarotbear	05 Jan 2003
First of all, firemaiden is quoting someone else with the 'angels lining up the cards' line and should have given them credit for it. that much aside... Firemaiden says she is an ATHIEST and in her same sentence asks about ANGELS. And I got blasted for using ANGELS and HELL in the same sentence. Get over yourselves, you bunch of hypocrites! How can you say you believe in nothing, yet ask about the something of a western religious nature that causes something to work? Doesn't go together for me. And in my personal opinion (IMHO), since I do not believe in Angels moving cards around, it is LUDICROUS. So, I will modify it to be constructive criticism : - If you think that angels move the cards around, there is no one going to stop you...but they do make medications that work wonderfully well in these instances when you think they do. Remember, like it or not, 'community' or not... I am entitled to my own point of view. You do not have to like it. Now move on. No one cares about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And the angels probably don't either.

Major Tom	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden what led me to the cards in the first place was a story I was writing called ..yikes…“LETTERS FROM THE WALL”. It was to be a magic-realism/autobiography/record of a year in Berlin. Now it comes to me --Belief is totally beside the point, isn’t it. Belief is just the frontal lobes agreeing to come along or not. What I am really interested in, is not belief, but experience., experiencing something magical. When the tarot speaks to me, that is magic. Indeed. So is this a book you're writing? Why don't you start another thread on your book? It sounds fascinating. :) Some of us find belief useful for furthering experience. }) My own belief is: God is everything. edited to expand quote and generally try to make sense. :laugh:

Diana	06 Jan 2003
off-topic: firemaiden, when and where can I get a hold of your book? Sounds wonderful. I'm off to the library this afternoon to borrow their books on Miro. on-topic: I think some people have been focusing an awful lot on the word "angels" which I seem to think was just used as a kind of analogy and was not necessarily meant to be literal. What are angels anyway? When I was a little girl, my mum used to tell me that they are "God's thoughts coming to Man" (man is used in the generic sense). So yes, angels line up my Tarot cards for me. I choose the cards that I am guided to choose. (My angels don't have wings and white robes.) I try and listen to them and let them guide me. I would be silly not to.

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kazz So...you must BELIEVE that the tarot speaks to you??...Mmm!! and you BELIEVE that it is magic?? don't you?....so isn't that saying that you DO BELIEVE???:TQC Or it could just be my mind connecting the dots!

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear First of all, firemaiden is quoting someone else with the 'angels lining up the cards' line and should have given them credit for it. I did give them credit for it.

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
off topic: Dearest Diana, and Tom, thank you thank you so much for expressing an interest in the book! -- well the book has a long long way to go, since I am writing it as I am living it, and because it was rather distracting me from what is my purpose here -- to get auditions in Germany and sing opera. Perhaps, in the end, it will be the writing not the singing that wins...but I hope not, because I can write later, but have to sing now. LOVE

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear Firemaiden says she is an ATHIEST and in her same sentence asks about ANGELS. [...] How can you say you believe in nothing, yet ask about the something of a western religious nature that causes something to work. ....My dear Tarotbear, because I truly believe in nothing, yet am fascinated by what I call the "imaginary" -- what I call "imagination" or 'dream-land" is for some people experienced as another reality. Studying french literature, I saw how the experience of magic (as in the holy graal medieval writings) evolved gradually to a perspective as in 19th century writing where magic is in the hallucinations of a mad man (i.e. Gerard de Nerval) --- yes, requiring medication. To me it is all beautiful, imagery, but I do not believe that it represents anything real -- if I did, I would become very concerned, and definitely consider medication!!! Yet I am a student of the imagination. I think it is possible to spend a lifetime looking at bugs without becoming one. I am what you might consider a person standing firmly between two realms -- i.e. the real world and the dream world, and have been there for decades. PEACE

Kazz	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear Hate me, adore me, despise, me, whatever. Now move on. Is this multiple choice?? tarotbear, you need to chill out Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I think I am attracted to Tarot exactly because I AM an aetheist, and wishing not to be.... Firemaiden, this is really fascinating.....The 'born-again-Christians' that I have met recently (one of them, my next door neighbour), when they found out that I read tarot cards, are all really shocked, and say that I am allowing the Devil into my life and it is his work that I am doing ..etc..etc.....but we get along great mind you..( I just don't mention it ) What I wanted to know is ...why is it that you are wishing NOT to be an aetheist??... Cheers Kazz :TQC

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kazz What I wanted to know is ...why is it that you are wishing NOT to be an aetheist??... I would love to have that sense of being watched over and protected, and taken care of that those few people who really believe have. It might help me with my opera career..... The most fearless ballet dancer I ever saw, back in the days when I was trying to do that, was a born again Christian who really believed God would protect her,and so she could do pirouettes on point with 7 revolutions, or more. Unfortunately ever since at age nine, I forced my Mom to admit, that ..well, no, actually, there is no Easter Bunny....I have never been able to regain that belief. I am sorry, please don't be shocked, but I do equate belief in God with belief in the Easter Bunny, and fairies and witches. They were the only experience of "believing' that I ever had. ...

tarotbear	06 Jan 2003
Firemaiden and I resolved all of this a long time ago in pms, where it belonged. Both of us feel that we both knew each other was being faceitious at times. We have no big problems, no axes to grind , or holes to dig about this; in fact, the two of us are confused by the outpourings of the rest of you, "springing to action" to defend someone you see and being downtrodden by the overbearing personality (or some such bullcrap) that really doesn't exist...except in your little minds (ooops! Sorry! I am told I am being too caustic to refer to you all as hypocrites and I apologise to all the 'hypo-TWITS' out there.) Then again, I was making a statement to no one in particular, and it's interesting to see WHO took it sooooo personally. It says a lot more about them than it does of me. Firemaiden and I have both moved on, far past this flare-up of personality differences. We look forward to sharing views together in the future. Once again, the readers have taken this far beyond the reasonable life it deserved. The written word is print, it has no life, yet some of you chose to give it a life of it's own. I repeat - get over yourselves. We (meaning firemaiden & I) both have. (Accent there is on word 'both', something you cannot get from a printed sentence).

zander770	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden because of a blinding dream . . . this period of attempted writing, I was sleeping under a painting (provided by the rental agency in Berlin) by Miro, called “ Naissance du jour ” . . . there was a burlesque Pan-God, etc. I later found out, by research on the internet, that all these dots were meant to convey the birth of day, birth of the sun, that Miro was profoundly catholic, and that he never considered any of his paintings to be abstract— I came across Alistair Crowley’s writings and was stunned by the correspondance between his Universe card, and this Miro painting, which was after all depicting the birth of the universe… ~zander from dander~ now, this . . . this here? i want to hear MORE about this! **firemaiden-- Now it comes to me --Belief is totally beside the point, isn’t it. Belief is just the frontal lobes agreeing to come along or not. What I am really interested in, is not belief, but experience., experiencing something magical. When the tarot speaks to me, that is magic. Indeed. [/b] ~Z~ i, for one and for (as my 3 yr old son might say, if he would cease screaming: "mine! Mine!! MINE!!!" all of the time) "whatever" reasone ("two-cents") agree w/this statement, but, then again, i "tend to 'believe'--a real, true "committer," ain't i?--in god(s)" but, i'm "weird," some think, and . . . that's "cool!" "they" don't know my experience(s), nor what i've "been through," and they don't "know my soul," nor i there's (hell, i'm "c.i.a." = "catholic-irish-alcoholic!!!" naw, really: recovering catholic who practiced waaaaaay too much buddhism in the(m) eighties to "go back," now! everyone ("have you not noticed, yet?!?")--her and everywhere! PEOPLE: murcery IS in RETROGRADE, remember?!!? look! even the V.H. kelli fox says so!!! listen: January 2 Mercury Retrograde at 28 degees Capricorn New Moon at 12 degrees of Capricorn Mercury halts its forward progress and begins its retrograde cycle. During this Mercury Retrograde period, which lasts until January 22, we're cautioned to plan ahead even for simple travel, to watch our words carefully, to listen closely to what others say and to pay careful attention to subtleties like body language and gesture. Without this caution and attention, we're bound to get tied up -- both in traffic and with our tongues. Still, slowing down and really paying attention is hardly a bad thing; we all can benefit from a less frantic pace. Also today, we welcome a New Moon. New Moons signify beginnings and momentum, a chance to channel enthusiasm into new projects. Since this particular New Moon falls at 12 degrees of Capricorn, a Cardinal Sign very concerned with personal status and achievement, special celestial attention is now being paid to the realization of our highest ambitions. If you're a Capricorn born between January 3-6, an Aries born between April 1-5, a Cancer born between July 3-7 or a Libra born between October 4-8, keep your eyes and ears open for exciting new opportunities. ~770~ i mean, jaysus . . . i'm just barely getting over new yr's eve! TRULY!!! slan leat, ~770 :laugh:

Khatruman	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear One of my theories is that when you are studying your cards, you pick up the "x' card and say 'This is a card about "____".' You do this many times in the course of your studies. You do this with the whole deck, imprinting each card (consciously or unconsciously) as you do. One day, the person shuffling the cards says "Tell me about 'x' " - and sonofabitch! Doesn't that card show up! This is one of my theories about just why the appropriate cards come up in a spread... What a wonderful observation, tarotbear... one that, I think, got lost in the Springer-esque bandying that has since plagued this thread. I think it explains a lot, and something that I haven't been consciously aware of, but which makes sense to how I see the cards and the imagination, on how a deck becomes so much more vibrant the more I use it. It also inspires me to work more with my other decks to make them more "lucid". Thank you for this observation! Peace!

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
Oh dear...my dear friends...what have we done...? once the first egg breaks, so are all the others to fall off the stack and smash spilling their yolks all over the floor? IN the German Magazine Der Spiegel today the front cover was a picture of Hamburg in 1942 after having been destroyed by allied bombs. I saw it and wanted to cry. The article asks, must we fight terror with terror? It is a retrospective on the allied bombing of Germany. The perspective of one allied bomber is cited: -- after he dropped his bombs, and then saw the ensuing fire storm, and the tens of thousands citizens being burned to death, -- he went home feeling sick, and said, from that day he became a pacifist. We, the allies overbombed the German cities...even our just mission to save Europe, could not be exempt from the excesses of revenge. Thank Goodness posts are not bombs. The adrenalin is there, and the fight or flight reaction. But words can be deleted...That is my suggestion.

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
Perhaps I should start a new thread. What should I call it? Miro and the World Card?

Shadow Wolf	06 Jan 2003
Tarot is not necessarily religious at all. Especially since some us here believe that the tarot reveals things that are within our subconscious minds. It's a very personal, thing. It can be used a tool to improve our lives or for spiritual growth. I was raised Catholic, but for personal reasons, have not been a practicing Catholic for some time. I've sworn off organized religion altogether. I'm what I like to refer to as a spiritual explorer. Tarot most definitely works for me !!!! It works so well, it's almost scary !!!!

firemaiden	06 Jan 2003
Aha!! .......it works so well it's almost scary!! And why is it scary??? That is the question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (somebody please humm the twighlight zone for me) its like there is a this little crack there, a little crack between the dreaming and waking worlds...

Kazz	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Aha!! .......it works so well it's almost scary!! And why is it scary??? That is the question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (somebody please humm the twighlight zone for me) its like there is a this little crack there, a little crack between the dreaming and waking worlds... Firemaiden, you might want to have a look at this thread. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9513 It might give some idea of how 'scary' it can get at times;) Cheers Kazz :TQC

firemaiden	07 Jan 2003
Thanks Kazz, I just read that whole thread. It was really an exciting and fun read!

Eowyn	07 Jan 2003
I had a boyfriend who doesnt believe in tarot ways, and once he made me have a little read to him. He asked something light about his carrer, but just for fun. But I remember he told me he wasnt asking about us, just asking about him. Anyway, I got 3 cards. Dont remember the 1, just the 2 and the 3: Qeen of cups and 5 of cups. I strongly felt that was somekind of warning. 2 weeks later he broke with me because he felt frustrated and a lot of other thing about him. So my question is the following: if you ask anything without believing, can the tarot talk by itself of something important? what do you think it happens? Peace

zander770	08 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Perhaps I should start a new thread. What should I call it? Miro and the World Card? yes . . . please do! (firemaiden) "I came across Alistair Crowley’s writings and was stunned by the correspondance between his Universe card, and this Miro painting, which was after all depicting the birth of the universe…" i (and many other's) would be very interested in hearing more regarding your experience's, w/this . . . here a link to the #21/the universe thoth card; i trust that you'll find the painting gif, firemaiden? http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/images/t-decks/thothcards.gif ~z~770 :TDEV

magpie9	08 Jan 2003
Tinkerbell is not either dead, she is in Intensive Care,awaiting a transfusion from Harry Potter or, lacking that, a frog prince with a sense of humor....Do we have a volunteer? But seriously folks, speaking ex-cathedra from MY belly button, I don't think belief is a huge issue, paying attention and being open to other points of views is. I've been witnessing the cards making sense (whether or not you wanted any) for many years. Tarotbear, you're missing a lot if you've never had a 2-way conversation with your cards! I like the way you slipped in some of the Charge of the Goddess.....pretty interesting tack for a non-religious dude to be taking! How Do you manage when she gets to: "for behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.".....and there's that bit about , "Let my worship be in the heart that rejoices....et all. Just curious.....:)) And how DO we account for the cards habit of giving us the information we NEED, instead of the information we thought we wanted?! ...that happens so frequently to so many of us...It is obvious to me that the cards are more than bits of cardboard. They link to SOMETHING, 'tho I won't claim they are in the mind of Goddess or God, it seems to me that if there isn't a collective unconcious,( or equivalent ) where does it all come from?? Just because we can't prove anything dosn't mean it isn't there...look at gravity....it was there for a very long time before science got a grip on it............I think that what we call Magic is only an undiscovered &/or unproven Science!!

firemaiden	08 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by zander770 I trust that you'll find the painting gif, firemaiden? I had to steal it from a poster sale site, then turn it into a jpeg. I put up an excerpt from the insane story I was trying to write about the Miro painting, and on my index page is a copy of the painting. www.hometown.aol.com/paulagood/index.html You won't be able to see much in it really, the poster I had was quite large, you have to really be able to see the individual dots, and sleep under it for months....Apparently not all of the links on my site are functioning reliably yet. I hope that it is just a matter of AOL needing some time. I began another thread in "Talking Tarot" called Miro and the World.

tarotbear	08 Jan 2003
Dear magpie9: What makes you think I am 'non-religious?' Because I refuse to waste my time believing that maybe, just maybe, an angel comes down and 'hand selects and places' the cards in my Tarot spreads? Eileen Connolly might accept this, but I don't. One must believe in angels to begin with, much less believe that they would spend time earthbound in such mundane pursuits. The Goddess - I believe in Her quite strongly. I also use that quote to start and end each session of tarot classes I teach. I do not believe I have 'angels' inside of me, either. If you go to my website, I say in plain English that I do not believe in 'angels sitting on my shoulder' or anything else along those lines. "If that which you seek you find not within you shall never find without...unless there's an unemployed angel standing around doing nothing at the moment..." - it just doesn't have a true 'ring' to it.

tmgrl2	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden HI. Can one be a total aetheist and have it still "work"? Can Tarot still be meaningful even if Angels don't line up the cards? Firemaiden....do you remember this post? Near the beginning of your time here at Aeclectic? I read the whole thread. Now that I "know" you more from reading so many of your posts ...and from having such a beautiful reading from you for me....I think I'll take up Merc's challenge and go back to this, one of your earliest questions and try a three-card spread (I'm new, remember, but I know you will be kind....some of the old posts I have read were a bit scarey...I may have turned tail and run...not you, thank goodness for all of us). So....fire vixen, songbird, artist and believer or non-believer...(and I don't think that is really the issue anyhow)....be patient while my sick and weary mind draws the cards from my familiar RW deck to do my first online reading with one I trust...Will PM you so you know to look for it. (Now I am committed....and worried...but I will move ahead just a little from that garden where the Empress holds me safely in her hands) Be patient...I shall return

firemaiden	09 Mar 2004
What fun!!!!!!!!!!!!

tmgrl2	09 Mar 2004
soon....didn't realize it would post on the end of the thread that you started, but that's even better, since anyone who is interested can reread the thread...heh, heh....I love it...later... I shall return....:D:D:D:D terri

Moonbow*	09 Mar 2004
Good luck terri, :D I know it will be a good reading - trust your instincts and go with them. Moonbow*

Star Spirit	09 Mar 2004
Do we have to believe in tarot for it to work... I'd say no. If we did, we'd never recruit skeptics :D

tmgrl2	09 Mar 2004
And so, Firemaiden, we begin... Your question from so long ago: "Do you have to 'believe' in Tarot for it to work? Can one be a total aetheist and it still 'work?' Can Tarot still be meaningfull if Angels don't line up in cards?" Forgive me for requoting, but it helps me focus instead of quote/cut/paste/comment....oh yes, I had to change my signature to do this reading since I had the word "faithless" in it and your question, I gather, is not really about faith, but "belief." And...I make no judgments about what has been said up to this point...about "beliefs" or "religion" or "faith"....since I am not sure where I fit in any of these topics....(This could and should be part "spoof" since that was your thread of recent readings...alas, I cannot promise what shall creep in as I go along)... May as well settle in and have a cup of tea with me...I prepared on just for us...since I am sick (for real...in body...well, maybe not just in body, since I was headed toward the nut house with Ros...Isn't that the house you once opened?....Hmmmm....) Now I know I will be comfortable... So back to the tea...chamomile, honey, 20 extra drops of green tea extract and a few drops of bitter echinacea.. echinacea to heal and to prevent you from catching my "sickness," not because I am bitter...that is not me... I take up the sword of challenge from Merc (not HIS sword, a metaphorical one....or, hmmmm....better now use sword since it is one of the four suits and I have not yet drawn the cards or spoken the spread, but shall do so now. JMD, again iin his infinite wisdom to newcomers, has supported my choice of a three-card spread (since I am new at this) and he even offered a list of suggestions for some possible versions...(back up in this thread to read them).... As I glanced at the list, the spread became clear. I shall draw three cards, using his suggested version that jumped out at me: Problems Benefits Advice I am going within for this reading, so "lurkers" and citizens bear with me. Oh...that's right...I need the cards...after shuffling them at length and cutting 9 times....I set them down....somewhere....so I could walk the dog... Aha! found them (so much for breaking the ritual of meditation) No reversals...I have carefully set the cards upright and intend to read them so. I take the top three cards and turn them over. [font=7] 3 CUPS - (problem)[/font] [font=9] KING OF CUPS (benefits)[/font] TEN OF PENTACLES-Reversed (advice) OH dear...I'm being flooded with information...since color has been a channel for me, I selected a color for the card before I turned over the card...I selected "blue" for the "advice" card but it came up red so I must take the "red" for this position since that is what happened. 3Cups-Yellow....Firemaiden walks toward three woman, cups raised in revelry. She approaces them cautiously, yet they turn to her and welcome her into their circle. "Join us as we celebrate our friendship and community." "But I am here on a quest. You appear to be celebrating while I am seeking and puzzled and confused. I am searching for an understanding, for a philosophy that will bring me peace. I'm not sure it's time for me to party, here." "But that IS our purpose ...we are all here to help one another understand and learn ...we do this through our friendship. We have some fun, too, unless you're opposed to that? "No, No...I'm not ...but I'm not sure I'm really welcome here because I'm not sure we share the same beliefs." "Beliefs? Beliefs, you say? (In walks the Kind of Cups in full monarchial garb) What beliefs? Are you talking about religion? spirituality? Are you speaking of those rules we have deep within us that unconsciously drive us forward through life? You must help me understand, here, so I may help." The King steps into the circle (he brought his own cup and, of course, his sceptre, since that's what he does...he rules) Firemaiden steps forward..."No, no ...I'm not interested in talking about religion...I want to find out if I belong here in this community and I am searching for answers about the Tarot and I need to know if I have what I need to be a part of this kingdom of travelers ....I am somewhat weary and uncertain about all of this...but I'm definitely not talking religion here...I guess I could use the word "spiritual" if I must. Can you help me?" The King of Cups invites the four maides to be seated...He sits alongside them, an equal, one of them, not their ruler and from his deep experience and maturity, he speaks: "Firemaiden...You are solving your own problem already..that is your greatest gift...the benefit you will bring us ....You are secure enough to raise a question that could spark, shall I say, 'controversy?'.....You must go deep within and you will see the glowing pink of the love that shines forth wherever you go...You are destined to bring understanding to us as we will to you..Since I am such a great and wise King, though, I know that you are really testing US...you want to find out if you are welcome. Will we accept you as you are...beliefs and all?" Firemaiden lowers her head and reflects: "The King is right...that IS why I came to ask my question...I must be welcomed or I cannot stay." Firemaiden raises her head, stands up, steps back from the circle and says: "You are right, oh great King. That is what I seek. What advice would you give me?" "Well, for a start, that Ten of Pentacles card over there, pretty much says it all..." The King looks at tomgrl2 who is lurking outside, hoping to learn anything, something...."Excuse me, could I please have that Ten of Pentacles you have in front of you.." Tmgrl2 hands the card to The King. As she does, she notices it is reversed...oh no, now what, a reversal! But that's how it came up and it's red. She hands the card sheepishly to the King. "Not to worry, tmgrl2, I am a wise and great King and I can read reversals with little difficulty...Besides, this one is quite clear.... Firemaiden, arise and hear as I proclaim: You have entered our community as great rish, since it is not wealth, and worldy security you seek...that is why the card is upside down. It is adventure and knowledge and a warm welcome you want from this community. You shall have it here! With the great energy (that's what the red means here, you see) you enter our Tarot community, and you are here to help us as we are here to help you...are we not all seekers of peace and love? That, Firemaiden, along with your great wit and humor, I challenge you to weave among the threads of souls you will see here as you travel...You will then find the serenity and peace within that you so much desire." Firemaiden jumps up and down like a child...she's like that sometimes...happy, overjoyed...."I belong, I belong....I'll do my best. I promise I will. I will learn AND share." With that, The King, rises up with his chalice in hand and says, "Remember, Firemaiden, there are even places on earth where people who feel they have no belief in God? or god? or gods? find a way to fit in...My cup was filled with Dr.Pepper, diet, caffeine-free...you see, I also am part of a community of people who can't drink alcohol and are expected to believe in GODs....so some of us call our GOD in that community...a Group of Drunks. " And so, Firemaiden, wisdom comes from almost everywhere. Didn't you mention something about a "link" opening up between the "waking" and the"dreaming" world? Well, if that works, so be it. [font=10] LOVINGLY,[/font] tmgrl

tmgrl2	09 Mar 2004
OH, my typing! I meant 'at great RISK" ....while I did the reading and typed, I lost pieces of the reading and had to go back and redo...but guess that was what I was supposed to do...forgive the typos...was afraid I would lose the WHOLE THING...and that would really not have been a message I wanted...Heh, heh, terri

firemaiden	09 Mar 2004
Oh terri, that is absolutely SPLENDID!! What a wonderful benefit that King of Cups is ;) I love how you have the cards talking to each other ROFL. How perfect -- we are always told to look at the relationships between cards. LOL You are so right -- what is belief anyway - I came here thinking belief was "something" and whatever that "something" was, I didn't have it. Diet Dr. Pepper is my favorite soft drink, bye the way. :) I really laughed when you said I was "testing". ROFLMAO It must be true, or it wouldn't make me laugh. :D :D (laughter as recognition) terri, thank you! What a lovely gift. You've warmed the cockles of my heart -- and so fun to have it at the end of this thread as the answer to the question, which did indeed raise quite a bit of controversy!!

tmgrl2	09 Mar 2004
You are welcome...the question you raised several years ago...I am sure is one that many of us wonder ...I do...still....will this be a safe harbor for me....but now, as I read, back and forward through postings...you were clearly earmarked to be an important ingredient in this mix at Aeclectic...as are SO MANY OTHERS>>>>Thank you...I will post a thread or ask a question about why parts of what I was writing "disappeared." I saw that you "stumbled" into the Redwood Circle again...so will be following there ....(I was afraid to preview and lose again so there were many typos..I know ...the perfectionist of your reading for me coming out again)....I am getting a bit more confident...thank you for your kindness and tolerance. terri

Phoenyx*	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden HI. Can one be a total aetheist and have it still "work"? Can Tarot still be meaningful even if Angels don't line up the cards? I'm in my micro rotation right now, and one of the things we do every day is read the plates of the specimens we plated out the day(s) before. My instructor can look at a plate and say "That's ..." or "That's just normal flora..." or "That's MRSA..." I'll look at her and ask the question she dreads to hear from me, since I ask it so often..."How do you know?" And she'll always respond with..."I don't know how I know, I just do....you just get a feeling from these things..." Today, she said specifically, "I know you don't hear them standing up and saying what they are yet, but they're talking to me loud and clear...One day, you'll hear them too." I thought of the Tarot. We lay the cards out, and for us newbies, and those who are unfamiliar with the cards, they're just pictures. We can't hear what they say. But for those who have a past with them, who know them, can hear what they say and interpret them fine. I don't think it has to do with believing in it or not, I think it has to do with whether you can read it or not.

Nevada	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Well, logically speaking, if it doesn't work, then belief won't help, and if it does work, disbelief won't stop it. Exactly! What I would have said, only Thirteen said it better. :) Wow I just noticed when this thread was started. :D Nevada

Phoenix Rising	12 Mar 2004
Is there anytime the cards may not respond? Or is it that we're feeling tired? I remember a reader telling me "the cards never lie" but it's how it's interpreted! Speaking of interpretation. My sister's car got damaged. She said "That wasn't in the cards" I said "Well it could of been, but I just didn't see it"

tmgrl2	12 Mar 2004
Yoo new to the cards...but years ago (again when I worked with color and handwritings) I also delved in to Remote Viewing...Keith Harary had written a book on it...in fact, I had contacted him and I was going to be involved in some research...for Remote Viewing, one gets quiet and tries to see something/someone far away and describe it or describe person'a surrounding..people mistakenly thought that I or a remote viewer could say.."He or she n SanFRancisco...or"The object in the box is 'lipstick.'" I doesn't usually work that was either...(literal, although it can at times). My granddaughter who was very young at the time thought this was a wonderful game. We would take turns hiding an obect in the box, then getting quiet and saying what we "saw" She had an incredible number of hits. More than I did. For, example, on one I said "it's round, short, can fit in palm of hand, is made of glass ?or plastic? at least is is clear...you look through it....bigger." It was a small magnifying glass. But until I saw it, I couldn't have "named" it...she did the same thing with a tube of lipstick.."it's round, long, has parts that go in and out...very shiny outside, bright color inside....) Anyhow, I stopped remote viewing and the color and graphology work and now many years later, Tarot is at my doorstep. Although some cards relate literally to my life, I feel...(I think Luna pointed out in Redwood Circles that one of my cards was..and clearly I agreed)....that all of the semantic relationships, definitions come to us...but for me, I don't know if I even expect to see things like "you will get a new car, " or "your daughter will get an A" ...more like general areas of travel and newness or a child ..Page card, perhaps and something positive surrounding learning....Am I rambling or did this address what you were asking, Lucille. I am a new seeker here at Tarot, but when you read the great readings by our citizens and "elders" here you will learn so much to support your developing beliefs...terri

Umbrae	12 Mar 2004
There is an answer to this question. It is buried in the ultimate definition in the word 'Believe’, and ‘Imagination’. Both ask you to accept something ‘without facts’ – but what are facts? Some folks will spout the old “100% of all murderers in prison ate candy-bars and drank milk as children.” It’s a fact, but it lacks relevance and implies causality where none exists. How about “Does the Tarot need to believe in me for them to work?” Or better and closer to the truth…”Is ‘imagination’, or ‘just made up stuff’ truly all false? What if…? What if…? What if your ‘imagination’, since it contains no ego, on habit – taps into that higher space – the higher self…the realm of the gods? Perhaps sometimes imagination is closer to the truth than ego driven ‘spirituality’? And perhaps belief and faith – when used by ego – become lies? And perhaps atheism and agnosticism are simply shields for the ego…to reinforce that ‘specialness’. Remember what mother said, “It’s just your imagination…” Never discount the medium the message uses to reach you… …and why should the cards tell you ‘everything’…it would remove the purpose of life itself… :smoker:

thanatos	12 Mar 2004
it dosent matter if the person seeking the reading belives in it or not ... as long as the person that is doing the reading belives then it will be a true reading .... but then I belive that if person didnt belive then they wouldnt be doing a reading to start with

tmgrl2	12 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae [b] There is an answer to this question. It is buried in the ultimate definition in the word 'Believe’, and ‘Imagination’. Both ask you to accept something ‘without facts’ – but what are facts? Some folks will spout the old “100% of all murderers in prison ate candy-bars and drank milk as children.” It’s a fact, but it lacks relevance and implies causality where none exists. How about “Does the Tarot need to believe in me for them to work?” Or better and closer to the truth…”Is ‘imagination’, or ‘just made up stuff’ truly all false? What if…? What if…? What if your ‘imagination’, since it contains no ego, on habit – taps into that higher space – the higher self…the realm of the gods? Perhaps sometimes imagination is closer to the truth than ego driven ‘spirituality’? And perhaps belief and faith – when used by ego – become lies? And perhaps atheism and agnosticism are simply shields for the ego…to reinforce that ‘specialness’. Remember what mother said, “It’s just your imagination…” Never discount the medium the message uses to reach you… …and why should the cards tell you ‘everything’…it would remove the purpose of life itself… I agree wholeheartedly, Umbrae. Sometimes we "trust" because of what presents as authority or research .....I tell my children at school when they say hurtful things to each other that "Words are weapons." My dear mother who lived to 101 lived in a prison of fanatical religious beliefs that terrorized her, imprisoned her. How sad...she had to much joy to offer but prayed ritualistically hours and hours a day. Her beliefs were, at least, great lessons to me of what I didn't want to do with my thouhts and my life. I wear a necklace that has Rilke's poem, "Be patient towards all that is unsolved in your heart, and try to love the questions themselves..." to remind me that I will walk into the answers when I am ready for them...very freeing. tbctd.. terri

DesertHowler	12 Mar 2004
Angels, quantum mechanics, mana, random chance, cards with personalities...it's all the same thing. Just different names for the same idea. We all see things differently through different experiences and cultures. What works works. I don't believe in much myself, but I don't disbelieve in a lot more. DesertHowler

The Do you have to "believe" in Tarot for it to work? thread was originally posted on 31 Dec 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.