Qabalah and Tarot - Together or Apart?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

divinerguy	05 Dec 2002
I've studied Tarot for a while now, and the Qabalah (or Kabbala or Q'abala or Cabala or yadayadayada) keeps popping up in my studies. I've done the BOTA thing, and looked at the pathways, and ya know what? . . . . . I have no idea why Qabalah and Tarot are studied together. Would someone please enlighten me as to reasons behind putting two seemingly diverse concepts into the same pursuit. I don't have a clue, really. (My wife has been saying this to me for years, so I have no idea why it surprises me).

jmd	05 Dec 2002
I won't say the reason it surprises you is because your wife has been saying it for years - for this would imply you didn't listen... and every knows that us men always listen attentively to our respective wife (or partners), especially the many times they know better - we just pretend not to listen :):):) There are a number of factors which play into why Qabalah and Tarot have been linked - though I personally think they should be studied independently. The first is that anyone having interests which pertains to the occidental occult or esoteric disciplines will undoubtedly come across both of these, and very quickly realise that they have something in common: the important number 22. It is normal for us to want to make qualitative correlations when presented with quantitative ones. Thus, being presented with 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and also being presented with 22 Major Arcana cards, effort is made to see how they can best be put together. With the Tree of Life, similar aspects results - even just within Kabbalah - for it wasn't always the case that the Tree was represented with 22 'paths'. As I have mentioned in some of the threads in the Qabalah study area, the Sefer Yetzirah makes it clear that the letters are placed either in (a) circle(s) or sphere(s). Still, wanting to unite the 22 letters upon the Tree glyph was an important achievement. Given these two together, many have since placed the Major Arcana on the so-called paths linking the various Sefirot - usually, but not always, following Golden Dawn suggestions. So, in terms of your question, and though the two are intrinsically independent, various illuminative correlations have been made, each worth investigating. Looking forward to other replies.

lupo138	05 Dec 2002
I definitely agree with jmd and would like to underline, that studying the similarities between both sytems enhances understanding of both. Of course, in detail a lot of different opinions can be heard and read. It seems to be a little bit like if a querent would go to two different readers. The cards would most probably be slightly different, but similar, as would the interpretations be. So although it is might not be the same topic, it would enhance understanding the meaning of the idea behind it. (I know that this is a somehow misty explanation.)

jmd	05 Dec 2002
For those interested, the Qabalah Study Group is eagerly awaiting other contributors :)

Lee	05 Dec 2002
I have to agree wholeheartedly with divinerguy. I spent a few months studying the Tree of Life to see if the paths really did correlate to the Majors, and while this certainly doesn't make me an expert, I learned enough to come to the conclusion that they are two entirely different systems, and that it's not particularly illuminating to study one from the viewpoint of the other. I was very frustrated when, in each book I read, the author would speak rapturously of the connection between the Majors and the paths, yet when it came down to doing a card-by-card explanation of why that card related to that path, suddenly the writing would turn vague, as if the author wanted to hurry through that part so no one would examine it too carefully. Perhaps I'm exaggerating a bit here, but only a bit! :D My search ended when I obtained a copy of The Qabalistic Tarot by Robert Wang. In that book Wang, who really does seem like an expert, states that he doesn't think that the Golden Dawn's attribution of Majors to paths is necessarily any better than any other attributions would be. If that's the case, if one could just as easily assign them at random, then why bother? I've looked at a three or four different assignment of Majors to paths, and in each, including the GD's, there are some cards which fit but several which have to be twisted, folded, stapled, and chopped into pieces in order to make them fit on their assigned paths, as one would expect if these assignments were simply arbitrary. -- Lee EDITED TO SAY: The Qabala and the Tree of Life are, of course, worthy subjects of study in and of themselves.

lupo138	05 Dec 2002
So a reply from the other viewpoint is needed: The claim to have found what special Arcanum relates to a special Sephiroth is indeed doubtful. But ALL (sorry, I don´t know how to underline, but I don´t mean shouting) correspondences change from differing points of view in the Four Qabalistic Worlds. If you try to relate to the tree of life as a symbol of personal development, as I do, different cards point out different meanings and challenges of or on your path. Just an example: It does make a lot of sense to me, that Temperance leads directly to Tiphareth, while if you travel sideways, you have to face the Devil , Death or the Tower. If it has no value for you: ok. To me it has - although I have to admit that I am not sure whether my lifespan wioll be long enough to explore and develop my personal correspondences. I think it is important to state at the end, that the Tree of Life is just a symbol and you have rather to find out what it means to you than look for "the perfect way". It is the same with Tarot, isn´t it ? ;)

Macavity	05 Dec 2002
I think I have become (remained) rather unconvinced of any direct relationship. The more obvious ones seem to rely on the commonality of certain numbers and I would imagine that the odds on this are quite high, given a tendancy for human beings to use/like(?) similar-ish number systems. The only thing I might add would be some interesting reading with some (more plausible?) alternative assignments of cards to BOTH paths and sephira. Food for thought: http://www.spiritweb.org/KeysToKabbalah/index2.html by Alan Bain. I picked up on this via a reference in: http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/nok/ by Colin Low which is quite a nice pdf book (sic) more generally on the Kaballah, which I found imformative - Moreover t's free! This perhaps reflects the general level/quality of my knowledge/opinion on this topic :D Mac

Ravenswing	06 Dec 2002
hi all-- let's look at it this way: there's ten sephirah. there's ten numbered pips. there's 22 paths and letters. there's 22 major arcana. there's four worlds. there's four suits. there's four letters in the most sacred name. there's four court cards. there's an apple, a book and a camel. there's blue, red and green. each one of these leads to a one-to-one corrospondence between the sets. but there is no unique-ness to the match-up. eg-- kether could match up to pip number 6-- it doesn't HAVE to match up with the ace. what we look for in examining these corrospondences is meaningful match-ups. but please remember: WE are the ones who determine meaning; it is not an inherent property. if you find (create, discover, uncover-- whatever word you wish here) no meaningful match-ups, then there are none for you. and kcqaballah would be a separate study from tarot... on to the drawing board raven

Jewel	06 Dec 2002
Since I first ran into the association of the Qabalah with Tarot I have been fascinated by it. I do believe these systems are independent of one and other, but the GD influence has led to more efforts in integrating the systems. I personally find this fascinating, although like many of you I have issues with some correlations and have to make scrunchie faces about some of the things I sometimes read. Think of Tarot and the Qabalah as a coparitive study situation. You take a deck ... look at the tree ... you may have an "aha" moment with a card, you may make a scrunchie face. If you want to go back to the origins or tarot I would definetly have to say they are apart. But since the GD we have the option of together or apart. As with most things tarot I would say this is a personal choice. I like seeing how people integrate the concepts while trying to remain true to both the Tarot and Qabalah (very tricky), but as I noted I personally view them as apart with neat correlations. I hope AmounrA will respond to this thread. His deck, the 418 is Qabalistically based and I am learning a lot through how he is doing it. AmounrA, if you read this post please add your perspective to this question.

jema	06 Dec 2002
i studied the tarot for almost 15 years without any connection at all to the qabalah, now i love to learn about the qabalah but i am not yet at the point where i am even beginning to read tarot-cards into the paths. i haven't really started on the paths at all so far. but i love the tree of life. i can't explain it better then that - it is just a love. and i love the tarot. i doubt the two had anything to do with each other from the onset and perhaps they are totally unrelated in all ways. but if someone finds that the tree of life is deepening their understanding of the tarot - that is a great thing and perhaps i too will find that some day in the future when i know more. but that is not my goal with learning the qabalah. just as finding connections with tarot and runes are difficult but probably something many still do, i studied the runes (a short while only) on their own merit. i see the tarot-astrology in the same light. great if you find it working but hardly a discipline you need to learn. it is just for the joy of it. for the detective in us, wanting to find the subtle threads keeping our very universe together. perhaps there are no such threads - but we can have fun and interesting "Aha" experiences while trying our best to find them.

Laurel	06 Dec 2002
I think Kabbalah, Astrology, Alchemy, Archetypal Psychology and related topics certainly add important aspects into post-occult revival tarot and its impossible to study/work with modern esoteric decks without picking some of all of them up. However, is it necessary to seriously study these things to be a good tarot reader? Not at all. Do any of these topics approach the same material in parallel methods? Nope; similar but not parallel. So why do people bother? I think its because a tool box or a first aid kit is a lot more generally useful than having just a hammer or a box of bandaids respectfully. The more esoteric tools you can competently access to address either Self-Understanding (tarot for self) or Spiritual Counseling (tarot for clients), the easier it all becomes. Qabalah is handy because the Golden Dawn created a system where they tried to teach a little of everything and offer relationships and correspondences that offered a lot of insight. This doesn't mean its the One True Way to read tarot however. Its probably not even the best way. But it is a way that's proven effective over the years for enough people to keep Llewellen, US Games, etc., putting more books and Qabalah-friendly decks out there! Laurel Laurel

Ophiel	06 Dec 2002
So, you thinks the Tree and the Tarot be Truth of a different and not necessarily linked systems, huh? I just do not know, but it is an interesting idea. I am guessing you will find more of your supporting sentiment from the people who use the cards as a complete system, then those who start with the Tree and then hang the cards like Christmas ornaments. It is odd...I have been studying the Tree for many years, and at first took the path/card assignments on faith, following basically the assignments of the Golden Dawn system. Crowley switches a few cards (Emperor and Star), but the rest falls in place. Lacking any experience with the nature of the Tarot, or the paths, it is difficult for a novice to start hanging cards on the Tree. English occultist Wm. Gray came up with an entirely different scheme for the Tree, assignments that his students still follow, as well as Phillip Cooper, in his brand new book, "Esoteric Magic and the Cabalah." I avoided Gray for years because in order for me to try out his assignments, I would have had to disregard the Cabalah Wing (in the tradition of the GD) of my library. The balance was way off...a handful of books (Gray) versus a few shelves of the other. And many reputable occultists, including Regardie, stuck with the GD system. Perhaps the only true test would be to learn both the Tarot and the Tree independent of any outside influence and hang them yourself. However, that is quite difficult since it would require not being contaminated with other's thinking. At least two conclusions can be extrapolated from this posted question: 1) fixed card/path assignments do not exist (one and only one way to the Truth), or 2) all those authors writing about the assignments are trying to fool us, and there is no Gnostic experience to be had from the joint effort of Tree and Tarot. That there are no fixed pattern, one and only one way, is evident. Otherwise, wouldn’t the genuine occultists all be doing it the same way, assuming that #2 isn’t false, meaning there are no genuine occultists! lol. No doubt the number twenty-two was handy, with the Hebrew alphabet corresponding exactly to the number of paths on the Tree. And this number is convenient because by body-count, we can include the seven ancient lords (the seven planetary bodies), the twelve signs of the Zodiac, and three left over for the elements, using the experience of the Tree in Malkuth as Earth. I’ve never seen such an assignment, but possibly the three alchemical processes, Sulphur, Mercury, and Salt, would have fit in, too. The Hebrew alphabet was a good choice, since it was alien enough from Church thinking to be able to conceal from the Church a system of occult symbols. Drifting a bit…a 20th century alchemist named Fulcanelli wrote an incredible book, “Les Mystere des Cathedrales” in which he shows how the bas relief art work found in the Notre Dame of Paris corresponds exactly with the alchemical processes. He suggests the Church’s architecture and art were used AS a book, in initiations into the higher mysteries by medieval occultists, not only under the nose of the Church, but even in the Churches own pews! Remember that the Church has always ‘frowned’ on individuals experiencing gnosis without the guidance of a Church official, and often the churches ‘frowns’ were accompanied by torture and death. Besides, the Church was not in the position to administer such guidance, since spiritual development seems to be a lower priority by them. Ah…here it is…the trail I was following before I got lost. Recently I read the new Cooper book mentioned above and since I liked the book a great deal, thought I’d reconsider the Gray Tarot/Path correspondences. I must say, at face value, they make a lot of sense. Someone in this thread suggested that while many authors supported the system of correspondences between the Tarot and the Tree, actual links and reasons for the links were often vague when they began describing them. I have had that experience many times, studying the Tree and Tarot as one system: In fact, most of the time. Too many times I’ve left the pages of books scratching my head in bewilderment. It has occurred to me that perhaps the author is ‘stuck’ with fixed correspondences, and having to make the most of it, finds the thinnest of support for why that particular card represents a subjective experience one would have experiencing a combination of the two spherical energies the card allegedly connects. So, if the cards themselves are not the an intrinsic part of the Tree, why continue with this tradition? Please don’t try to convince me this is all part of a Illuminati plot to confuse us all so as to more easily control us! I am not convinced that the Tarot and Tree are not part of the same system. However, this thread is quite stimulating and may force me to sit down (by candle light, of course) with my dusty Cabalah books and decide once and for all (at least for the moment) what it is that I do believe about all this. Rather than answer your question, I am probably tossing in more pieces of confusion!

AmounrA	06 Dec 2002
[thanks j:-)] I think what I would say here is, that with decks like Marseilles, there does not appear to be a pre-emptied link with the qabalah. Saying this the numbers, as pointed out by ravenswing, do add up to allow the tarot to be projected onto the tree of life. Now there are decks designed with this in mind, the best is [in my mind] Thoth. This deck is designed with tarot and qabalah to be embedded in its framework. As such the two are linked, in a system that does work. A bit like a knife and fork, they exist separately, but can also work to great effect when combined. [of course, we have already established there is no spoon:-)] Whether or not the fork was designed to work with a knife is not really important. The fact is they work well together and independently.

jmd	07 Dec 2002
Great posts! AmounrA, of course there is a spoon... and it may be the missing link to the set! In terms of placing two independent systems together, it is certainly the case that many decks have been designed with the influence of specific views about both the Tree of Life and Tarot's place upon it. However, this is an alteration of the deck. Levi's, Sadhu's, Gray's, Waite's, Wirth's or Crowley's differing views and consequent card designs each have various imposed Kabbalistic thought thereon imprinted. As a result, those decks work well within there own super-imposed 'systems'. Maybe the Tarot and Kabbalah do have an intrinsic link - if so, the card placements upon the so-called paths comes historically later than the cards. If they do, the best candidate I have seen to date is the one proposed by Mark Filipas (which I mentioned many months ago, and is therefore worth mentioning again). He claims that there is evidence to suggest that the twenty-two cards may be based on a Hebrew 'abecedarium' (basically an illustrated abc of Hebrew letters - see his An Alphabetic Masquerade: the letter symbolism of the Tarot). Of course, one may properly investigate syncretistic elements within the two, and 'discover' connections which remained hidden - the spiritual world has many wonderful ways of revealing itself. What I probably often respond to is the un-investigated assumption that the Golden Dawn's allocations are correct. To me they seem more like 'forced' attributions - though ones yielding many wonderful insights - then ones properly emerging from investigative reflection. Steiner once said, in a quite different context (see lecture 2 of the lecture series on Egytian Myths and Mysteries) Quote: it is easy to let a certain gift for combinations get the upper hand, so that we try to apply such schemes or diagrams in other contexts also. It is easy to believe that we can do this, and many books on theosophy actually contain a good deal of rubbish of this sort. Hence there must be a strong warning that such combinations are not controlling, but only perception, spiritual vision, without which we go astray. Such combinations must be warned against. What we can read in the spiritual world may be understood, but not discovered, through logic. It can be discovered only through experience. Here the last three sentences are crucially important: not the ability for combining, but spiritual 'revelation' is important. In terms of the Tarot, for me this is another indication for the importance of allowing the spiritual dimensions inherent in each of the Tarot and the Kabalah to be given the space and time to reveal themselves. If there are connections between the Kabalah and the Tarot, we must also be careful to investigate each for its intrinsic merits - for we may otherwise make what I consider to be a mistake of taking away elements of one in order for the other to better 'fit' (and likewise for astrological correspondences - we certainly wouldn't dream of interposing Leo and Libra, would we?). This is already a far longer post than anticipated - so I'd better leave it here! Hopefully, the can of worms has only been stirred the more as bait!

Ophiel	07 Dec 2002
Can of Worms, DMJ? Oh, I see, you are the fisherman, and we are the fish you are trying to catch. You didn't indicate what you intend to do to/with us once we are out of the water. I suppose it's better than being the can of worms... Just a quick note (before leaving for work, so I can earn more money and buy more decks)... Your Steiner comment, of course, caught my eye, and got me thinking, about the experience part of the cards. There is a great deal of literature written about these topics, the meaning of the cards as they relate to the Qabalah. Some say it's the arcana, the "real" truth will be found there. Others say, no, it's an occult secret that the real power of the cards will be found in the pips, that they reveal the workings of the septhiroth (btw, please don't ask who said this...it's been years!) But back to that Steiner statement, the best teacher for all of us is to put down those books and crawl into the cards. Of course, one needs a bit of an idea of how to get in there first, which is why we read all those books in the first place! It's difficult sometimes to tell whether an author is truly gifted with a connection to spiritual wisdom, or if the words are merely intellectual masturbation. The truth therein from 'connected' authors will not strike a chord in us until we have wiped the corrosion off the strings and tuned them ourselves to the spiritual worlds. As I said earlier, I am guilty of accepting that the Golden Dawn was, at least, mostly right in their assignments. The bulk of the literature basically stands behind those assignments. This reminds me of Monty Python's "Life of Brian," when the masses find/chase Marty Feldman's shoe, a truly holy relic. Did the Golden Dawn find a shoe, and are we all chasing them because they are running with it? I know the spiritual worlds do not speak in a language that the intellect understands, but we have to start somewhere, and transforming the intellect into a spiritual tool is certainly a worthy cause, since I believe that was part of what Rudolf Steiner was trying to teach us in the first place. HE wrote about penetrating the spiritual worlds in full consciousness, and I for one plan on having my favorite deck of tarot cards in my back pocket.

Ophiel	07 Dec 2002
Yes, is true. I took myself on a journey of the mind, and forgot the reason of my post. It's about putting the books aside and getting into the cards, that we desperately need to do that more. Isn't that the point of the Qabalah, or at least ONE of the points, to make a spiritual connection through the cards? And perhaps the important point here is not what we find, but that we are doing the work.

jmd	07 Dec 2002
I agree with much of your two posts, Ophiel - except for the first paragraph of the first: the can of worms are these posts, the fish our thinking (including mine) - I certainly do not presume such an elevated title as 'fisherman'. With regards to whether the Spiritual speaks a language not understood by the intellect, I would have thought that the intellect is but one of the tools at our disposal - we do the understanding - as you implied in one of your posts. I also agree that reading much of what is around is very worthy as part of deepening our understanding and resources - including Golden Dawn material, which are the more understood when the more ritually worked. Having welcomed you back after a long absence - my apologies if my post seemed to irritate you in some way (I am surmising this from your reversal of my initials - if it did, it may hopefully just be my style of expression - usually very dry and succinct but long and somewhat opiniated). For me, this is one of those wonderful threads I feel a positive challenge in - and trust others read my posts merely in that context.

Ravenswing	07 Dec 2002
hi again-- one thing i think we may be missing is the intent of the creator of a particular tarot deck. personally, the deck laurel and i are working out intentionally includes qabalistic symbology and uses the tree of life as an underlying structure. this is not to say that one **should** study these two as a unit. it is just that our particular deck has been modeled with this as its intention. a little bit of this, a little bit of that... ravenswing

Ophiel	07 Dec 2002
I do apologize for the reversal of your initials. I was in a hurry when I wrote and rather than back out of the screen, THOUGHT I knew it! Just goes to show what good a thought can do. You have in no way offended me, I assure you!

AmounrA	07 Dec 2002
JMD-"What I probably often respond to is the un-investigated assumption that the Golden Dawn's allocations are correct. To me they seem more like 'forced' attributions - though ones yielding many wonderful insights - than ones properly emerging from investigative reflection."- I completely agree with you here. I find the GD is a nice and simple base to start from, but there attributions are only one, of a limitless way of working with the Qabalah and the tarot. I personally don’t use their links with the trumps to paths of the tree, but do find great value in linking the pips to the tree. The Qabalah and the tarot are not static in my mind; they are vibrant living mechanisms and keys for gaining deeper insight and inter-action with the more abstract areas of consciousness. Ophiel-"It's about putting the books aside and getting into the cards, that we desperately need to do that more. Isn't that the point of the Qabalah, or at least ONE of the points, to make a spiritual connection through the cards? And perhaps the important point here is not what we find, but that we are doing the work." YES. A right balance certainly has to be found between theory and practice...and perhaps that balance is not struck at 50/50. JMD"With regards to whether the Spiritual speaks a language not understood by the intellect, I would have thought that the intellect is but one of the tools at our disposal - we do the understanding - as you implied in one of your posts." - An excellent point, the way we interpret and understand thoughts is for me a very magickal and profound area of reflection. The thinking about thinking strange loop J. JMD, thanks for posting that Steiner link. I will endeavour to read the whole lecture at some point in the week :-) I found the following passage from lecture 2 very interesting, and very obscure- "It can remember nothing. This is the reason why in this period, godlessness has been able to make headway in many respects. This is why the fifth period is driven to look toward the future rather than the past. It must look toward the future, when all the gods must arise again. This reunion with the gods was prepared in the time of the bursting-in of the Christ-force, which worked so powerfully that it could again endow man with a godly consciousness. The god-pictures of the fifth period cannot be memories. Only if man looks forward will life again become spiritual. In the fifth post-Atlantean period, consciousness must become apocalyptic."

ihcoyc	08 Dec 2002
For better or for worse, whether there is a historical relationship at the beginning between Qabalah and the Tarot --- something I rather doubt as well --- it's become part of the current tradition. The correspondence between the paths and the Trumps seems rather weak and forced, and may do some mild disservice to both. It does the greatest harm to the Fool, which as originally conceived is neither a suit card nor a trump, because any attempt at working out relations between the paths and the Trumps must necessarily include the Fool among their number. The Qabalah seems more useful in interpreting the pip cards; largely because it is a numerological tradition, and something that assigns meaning and associations to numbers is what is needed with the pip cards. It is, of course, not the only system of numerology out there, and there are others available to use. But this one underlies much of the traditional lore of the meanings of the cards in reading; and this tradition, like any other, is not something to lightly cast aside.

Ophiel	08 Dec 2002
Perhaps some of our group's magicians will step forward and give testimony here. Do these two work together? Since doing pathwork is a verb, we gotta find some action guys. The only problem here is that this work is totally subjective. Good magick work requires a clear mind with an objective POV.

Ravenswing	09 Dec 2002
okay guys-- would you consider the creation of a tarot deck a work of majick? perhaps pathwork of a sort-- discovering and imaging the path as you go along... if so, then i definately see tarot and the qabalah as intimately intertwined. all inter-relations and symbology/corrospondences go into the mix to produce the image. and many times there is a part of the image that is not planned (consciously...) that will bring out a new angle previously unexplored... laurel and i are using GD associations as a springboard. a mix of qabala and astrology placed within the context of a particular card. any questions? i'll be happy to nswer-- if i can ravenswing

Ophiel	09 Dec 2002
Don't forget that the GD members each made their own decks, at least the Major Arcana, and I think that has to account for something, assuming they used those cards for pathworking. I keep tempting myself with the idea of making my own cards. Perhaps it is a next logical step, at a point...My art skills are, well, not quite up to par as Leonardo and probably less honest than a primary education student, first year.

Ravenswing	09 Dec 2002
it's the journey, not the destination... nothing can beat your own cards raven

Ophiel	09 Dec 2002
Yeah, that's what I think, too...one's own cards rule. But I think after one makes a deck, one need revise that deck some time down the path. These things, working in symbols, have a way of attracting like energy, even like energy that doesn't *seem* related. If someone wants to go on a different journey, perhaps try a different deck for the scrying. That could be interesting. However, I tend to stay more with recognized 'occult' decks, ones that were developed/designed by someone with an occult mindset. Fancy free thinking is fine for some decks, but when I'm crawling in the conduit between the spheres, I'd like to know the designer was thinking along the same lines as me and I could trust a secure fitting. More fanciful decks are good for other things.

jmd	09 Dec 2002
Ophiel, on this point, I must agree with you a thousand-fold: 'These things, working in symbols, have a way of attracting like energy, even like energy that doesn't *seem* related.' Hence my point, often mentioned in different ways, that the cards are not just random bits of wood-pulp upon which are random splashes of pigment, but are creations through which too the spiritual manifests...

AmounrA	09 Dec 2002
Ophiel-- ""Don't forget that the GD members each made their own decks, at least the Major Arcana, and I think that has to account for something, assuming they used those cards for pathworking. I keep tempting myself with the idea of making my own cards. Perhaps it is a next logical step, at a point...My art skills are, well, not quite up to par as Leonardo and probably less honest than a primary education student, first year"" If you where to create a deck yourself for pathworking purposes, you could perhaps create your own deck 'in your minds eye', without needing to 'ground' them. You could just keep notes in written form and symbol sketches in your magickal journal. I am sure such a mentally visulised deck would attract the same type of like energy, and channeling connection. JMD-""Hence my point, often mentioned in different ways, that the cards are not just random bits of wood-pulp upon which are random splashes of pigment, but are creations through which too the spiritual manifests..."" I whole heartedly agree with this.

Laurel	10 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ophiel Perhaps some of our group's magicians will step forward and give testimony here. Do these two work together? Since doing pathwork is a verb, we gotta find some action guys. The only problem here is that this work is totally subjective. Good magick work requires a clear mind with an objective POV. As a practicing magician I can say yes, these work together- for me. But they work best when I incorporate them in my own ways via experiment and experience, rather than going by rote with what any mentor or book has ever suggested. For example, I prefer to work with the Lurianic Tree as opposed to the glyph more comonly seen... but that's just a whole other can of worms. :P Laurel

Ursula	11 Aug 2003
i realize i'm weighing in to this discussion a bit belatedly, but i've only just begun to read about the qabala. i was away from my study of the tarot for a bit, but have returned to it as enthusiastically as ever. i remembered seeing some posts concerning the relationship between tarot and the qabala, so having a bit of free time on my hands at work, i decided to look into it... and as part of my search, i decided to look again at this board & see if i could find some helpful posts, which of course led me to this thread... if any of you still post here, i want to say THANK YOU very much. i was wondering how in blazes they came up with these major arcana associations along the pathways between spheres (sorry if my terminology leaves something to be desired here). the idea that they were assigned essentially by people who saw connections that were meaningful to them makes sense. i think people have been inspired to relate the tarot and the qabala because they both represent common human and spiritual themes. if you love the tarot, then come to love the qabala (or vice versa), i think it's a very natural tendency to try to integrate them as much as possible. people see biblical themes in the tarot for the same reason. i'm at work so gotta go, but that's the gist of my thoughts. thanks again! ~Urs :OP

full deck	11 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd . . . I would have thought that the intellect is but one of the tools at our disposal - we do the understanding - as you implied in one of your posts. I also agree that reading much of what is around is very worthy as part of deepening our understanding and resources - including Golden Dawn material, which are the more understood when the more ritually worked . Yes, it is a tool and the good craftsman always knows the limitations of their tools, based upon their intrinsic nature. Being short of perfection, all things do have limitations and in knowing these, one might transcend the tools. I too don't think there is a direct relationship between the Kabbala and Tarot historically (from what I know so far). There are parallel similarities it seems but, I am reminded that it is the nature of our human brain to look for order. I'm not sure why but often it seems that we impose order, for the sake of our senses, where there may be no deeper relation than what we believe to perceive. This does not mean that both can not work together though and if one uses them together . . . why not? There's still enough mysteries of God to go around.

lupo138	12 Aug 2003
hi all, as I was quite assured that Tarot and Kabalah did not originally stem from the same source, and recently became a bit uncertain about that, I want to share my thoughts: What is "the" Kabalah" that we are talking about ? Is it the classical, Jewish one ? Or rather the "esoteric" Christian offshoot ? As most probably the majority will work with the Golden Dawn system, it will be the latter. As was pointed out in other postings, this Christian Kabalah differs from the Jewish system(s) - and is in time not earlier, but later than the first Tarot decks (circa 200 years). The elder Jewish Trees had not really a fixed version, although they are quite similar to each other. I do not know, at what time the paths changed from a metapher to the idea of something like a spiritual map, but it could well be, that this change occurred within the same time-period as Tarot was "invented" and transformed into the system as we know it from the Marseille decks and, in the end, used for divination. I am aware that there is no evidence that Tarot was used for divination as early as the middle of the 17th century. Anyway, the more I delve into this, the more I assume it could well be, that Kabalah and Tarot, both as we know it, have had influences vice versa. Maybe someone more familiar with these topics (jmd ?) could add her/his view. bright blessings L.

Pagan X	11 May 2004
Preface from Robert Wang's The Rape of Jewish Mysticism by Christian Theologians This book pretty much lays it all out. I'm thouroughly impressed with Wang.

Jewel	11 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Pagan X I'm thouroughly impressed with Wang. Have you read his book Qabalistic Tarot? If not I recommend it.

SongDeva	11 May 2004
Apologies if this has been posted already, but I'm in the middle of a quite amazing book: Discovering Your Self Through the Tarot: A Jungian Guide to Archetypes & Personality by Rose Gwain http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0892814128/ref=nosim/aeclectic/ It has a straightforward discussion of Jung, tarot AND the Qabalah, including a great application of the majors to the sephira, etc. And it's not overly dry, believe it or now. Is anyone familliar with it? It's used on Amazon for under $6.

smleite	12 May 2004
What a strange thread for me to find right now. Being rather new to Tarot, I must say I started to study eventual relationships between the major arcane and the Cabala because I thought everybody agreed on them – even if not in every detail. There is only one thing I am sure of, for the moment (I can always change my mind, as I learn more), and it is one thing that remains as a basis for my entire spiritual structure and perspectives: every system, aphorism, or symbol that reflects Truth is somehow related, and, the more it corresponds to a high spiritual level, the more this relations are accurate. In the highest level I can thing off, it should be possible to absolutely “overlay” every true symbol or system, hope you understand what I mean. Truth is one, even if its reflections are soooo plural. This is the main reason why the eventual correlations between these two systems (and between them and Alchemy, Astrology, etc) are so appealing to me: I have a very high opinion of them; they seem to reflect Truth in a very pure and absolute way. Of course, one can argue that all this paths are somewhat polluted and partially adulterated, but maybe even the distortions are necessary, like a meeting with The Devil… This said, I must also state how much I hate syncretic systems. I think they are generally abusive; they distort true meanings and fundamental correlations, and represent dangerous spiritual debris. Symbolic correspondences (the traditional science of Analogy) are not the same as syncretism.

Ravenswing	12 May 2004
Truth is the utmite jewel-- that which we all seek to own. Yet it is so multi-faceted that we are only able to percieve a few faces at a time-- never the entirety. fly well Raven

The Qabalah and Tarot - Together or Apart? thread was originally posted on 05 Dec 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.