about the "throw the book" thing

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

le-mat	28 Jan 2003
Tarot has meanings that have been handed down over the years. We can use these meanings or not, but we must know that they exist and we must keep them alive. That's why I don't believe in the whole "throw the book" thing. The experience of other people can be useful. I think Tarot has a universal meaning but also a particular or subjective meaning. In my opinion, intuition and books should go together. -- Pablo

Umbrae	28 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by le-mat Tarot has meanings that have been handed down over the years. Actually, that’s not correct. Historically, there are two major divisions of Tarot meanings. Post Golden Dawn is the accepted meaning used by most authors. Those particular meanings go back no further than 1909. Pre-Golden Dawn could be further divided into pre and post Levi (1860). However there is no historical record of Tarot being used for divination before 1780. Each set of meanings was essentially ‘made up’ by guys who ‘claimed’ to have found historical evidence proving their claims. Such evidence never existed, and large portions were plagiarized from other writers. So there is actually a historical imperative to tossing the book, and finding your own meanings!

Lee	28 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Actually, that’s not correct. Post Golden Dawn is the accepted meaning used by most authors. Those particular meanings go back no further than 1909. Since le-mat said "handed down over the years," it would appear that le-mat is quite correct, since meanings handed down since 1909 would indeed encompass years. I also believe le-mat is correct that "intuition and books should go together." I think this is a quite sensible position and, I believe, one that is shared by the majority of Aeclectic members. If everyone simply "found their own meanings" without ever reading about other approaches, then Aeclectic would exist in a vacuum, as there would be no one to read it. Personally I'm suspicious of people who take extreme, all-or-nothing positions in Tarot. I suppose in any field of interest there will be people who have a fundamentalist sort of personality. For me, people who insist that you must "burn the books" in order to read Tarot the "right way" are on the same level as people who insist you must read certain books in order to read Tarot the "right way." Everyone's path is different. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Listen to and read about several different approaches, then follow your heart. -- Lee

Khatruman	28 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Personally I'm suspicious of people who take extreme, all-or-nothing positions in Tarot. I suppose in any field of interest there will be people who have a fundamentalist sort of personality. ...Everyone's path is different. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Listen to and read about several different approaches, then follow your heart. -- Lee I agree whole-heartedly with you here, Lee. I also carry suspicion for extremists. Yet they are needed indeed for the balance to carry. To me, it is more or less a yin/yang thing. I think Umbrae's point is good for those with too slavish a devotion to book meanings, to help bring in their intuitive senses. Umbrae, I imagine, has a highly tuned sense of intuitiveness, which is very important to have in this modern day world of information and lack of intuition. I teach a folklore class at night and my students have an extremely hard time taking folk wisdom seriously. They don't see how people could believe in magic, or spirits, or myth. Myth to them is "a story that isn't true." They don't sense the subjectivity of reality. Though I seem to reverse myself (see my signature line below..;)) I wouldn't condemn what Umbrae is doing, because as a collective consciousness, many of us have lost intuition. It takes extreme views to bring the balance back. Umbrae makes a very valid point in his The Proces series about how, as children, we are taught that the "images" that come to our minds are dismissed as imagination. I think it's interesting that the word "imagination" is image in essence. It is our understanding that has been watered down. Peace!

RedWood	28 Jan 2003
I think the people who say burn the books..Mean that the way to learn tarot is by intuition first...books second..books are a good add on..but should not be first because then your own views get muddles with the books views.

Aoife	28 Jan 2003
Quote: [i] Originally posted by Khatruman Umbrae makes a very valid point in his The Proces series about how, as children, we are taught that the "images" that come to our minds are dismissed as imagination. I think it's interesting that the word "imagination" is image in essence. It is our understanding that has been watered down. Peace! [/b] Please Khatruman, could you say more about your last two sentences. I'm hooked but I don't fully understand. Please could you develop it? Eve

magpie9	28 Jan 2003
Read the cards. Read the book, and correct it. Read the cards, and think about it. Read the book, and argue with it. Read the cards, and integrate the information. Read the book, and write in the margins. Read the cards, read the book, write the book. Teach and learn, learn and teach. It's a circle. The book is a resource. A teacher is a resource. A forum is a resource. .A study group is a resource. History, philosophy and religion are resources. The book is a resource-but by all means, feel free to throw it away, unread. Re-invent the wheel at your own speed, in your own time, with whatever resources you haven't tossed out because you personally haven't intuited them just yet. It's your dime. Why not read the book? What's it going to do, abduct you and hold you for ransom?

Dark Inquisitor	29 Jan 2003
It is possible to give a psychic reading using tarot cards as a stimulus prop without ever learning the accepted meanings of the cards. And it is also possible to give a tarot reading based solely on the generally accepted meanings of the cards with no intuitive/psychic input. I favor the development of both sides of the issue. It is best to have both abilities. Much like driving, but also having a map with you. Since this is a forum about tarot cards & the reading of them primarily - it should not be outrageous to contemplate learning the meanings of the cards & reading books on the subject. Psychic development is related , but not the primary focus , I think. In the Adrian tarot thread, the issue was raised that learning meanings is difficult. I think it it can be difficult, but if you are subjecting yourself to a form of spiritual discipline for the purposes of learning, that is just part of the path. Not everyone wants to do that , however. For example, were I to decide to go to a Buddhist monastery to learn about the practices, I would not arrive & announce I did not need to learn the accumulated wisdom . I would subject myself to the discipline of learning in the path of those that had gone before to lay the foundation. It might not be the only thing I would ever study, but while I studied it, I would attempt to know it fully to the best of my ability. I received a reading once that I could tell had not much to do with the traditional meanings of the cards. It was an accurate but not oustanding reading. But since I knew what the cards laid out meant, I could see there was also an entirely other & highly accurate story that was not being told as well! Had I not known the meanings, I never would have seen it. And because the reader discounted card meanings & primarily followed her intuitions, she didn't see the rest of it at all. Tarotphelia

Umbrae	29 Jan 2003
For starters, I did not read a book on Tarot for over 25 years of reading. True…I take a stance as an extremist…because I honestly feel that someone around here has to. Too many people tell others to buy this book buy that book it’s the only way to learn. That too is an extremist view (in my opinion). I simply want to make the case that there is a whole other path out there. Also please remember, that more than once I have reminded folks – that there is more than one way, and more than one path – to read the cards – and that all are valid. And although I tell folks to burn their books, it is more of an insinuation than a recommendation. I have often stated that books should be a reference tool and not a reverence tool. I happen to collect books. Every room in my house if filled with books. I hate to see folks read a poorly written book (as many regarding Tarot are) early on, and get their heads ‘locked into’ an authors world view, and never get to ‘try their own wings’. Often the new reader does not get to try several different approaches because they are ‘steered’ towards one approach. I am, and I represent another approach – which is not for everybody.

HOLMES	29 Jan 2003
i myself used to get confused, ( still do ) what i did was took like 5 books and search for the universal meanings in each card and wrote it down, and combined them into one title which i called the fool innerchild, the emperor father, emperess mother, hermit inner self. death change,, then slow change, devil , changed fear, to bondage through fear, then bondage through power of fear. you see my meanings have changed over time, ? this is due to constant studying growth. the tarot as you study it will change for you,, and both ways can compliment the other book, vs self study, inuition vs book meanings. so i agree with lemat, they do go together, and the things that will make them gel is as umbrae said your personal meaning, so do it all ,, buy the master books ( so called for they are advanced) then use that knowledge to transcend, that which you have studied. what we are all saying is this ,, in the end tarot becomes the personal you that you understand how you get there is up to you . extremist no books ,, extremist books all the way,, moderation both. side ways , apply other system to the tarot. up ways , channel on the tarot reading like i do ( i don't look at the pictues for inuition unless i get stuck) and more ways, so dont' throw out the book unless it is badly written book eheh

magpie9	29 Jan 2003
Jeez, Louise! i don't see anyone here preaching lock-step adheirance to some defination found in a book. I don't see anyone here saying don't use your intuition, or don't develop your psychic abilities. I do see people saying use your abilities to learn to read tarot....reading and thinking are also abilities we can use for tarot. Umbrae, I haven't been here at Aeclectic long, but I have come to respect your posted opinions. I just can't agree with you here, I think you are assumeng that new readers are weak-minded and easily led. i don't think thats true. I think the more opinions and influences a new reader is exposed to, the more strongly s/he will develop and flower as a reader, in his own right. You read for 25 years before reading a book..I read for 10 or 15 before I started finding books to read. Would either of us have been better readers had we been exposed to books at earlier stages of our studies? Would we have been less attached to our own opinions? We both seem pretty strongminded, and so do most of the people that I've seen posting here! But I don't really know, for sure,and I'll bet you don't either. IMHO, exposure to a wide variety of opinions, traditions, teachers, decks helps create better readers. What's so wrong with learning from all the sources you can, and trusting your own innate good sense/intuition/abilities to sort it out? In the end we each create the ways in which we read and our individual relationships with the cards. Whats so wrong with learning the traditions and language of Tarot? Could we, as a group, be participating in this forum, if we diddn't all speak Tarot? Are we not, all of us, seasoned readers and new, learning from and teaching one another? I don't mean to be offensive to anyone, or their beliefs. But I do feel passionate about this - and I'm certainly not alone in either my passion or my opinion. :)

Macavity	29 Jan 2003
I think that's right. }) To overuse(?) the musical analogy: Sure, Jimi Hendrix could play electric guitar. Sure, Stephane Grapelli could play jazz violin. Both to an incredible standard and both (doubtless?) without reading music. BUT, unless you're a genius of that callibre, then what harm in having SOME basis in theory (aka books)? As e.g. Jimi moved towards lengthier symphonic style, he spoke of wanting to acquire more "book learning", simply to better explore the world of classical masters that had gone before. And, if not Hendrix (for non officionados!), I notice this as rather a common trait in modern musicians. Books on standard technique can avoid the unpleasant experience of "unlearning", that many self-taught amateur musicians (e.g. moi!) have to go through to rid themselves of harmful quirks developed over the years. Another merit is to avoid falling into a fixed style. By all means, develope your OWN style - But even these, my icons, can sound a bit "samey" after a while? Significantly also a number of (obviously misguided ;)) people can't abide the playing of either? To me, it's a question of ORDERING, little more. Given sufficient book learning, I can THEN better judge for myself what I need to know or what I need to develop for myself. I also agree that we do need some kind of Lingua Franca to communicate - Otherwise what's the point of Music - Oops, I mean Tarot forums? :D (Hopefully) On the side of Balance, Macavity

Karenwhe	29 Jan 2003
When I was studying arts I remember until today a teacher saying: "before you start your project DO NOT jump out there to get ideas from magazines and other sources. You will just lock yourself into those images and your result will be poor because it won't be yours and it will end up in an uninspired clone of someone else’s work and your marks will reflect this". Hey that was a sure lesson for me. I think this statement totally reflects what happens when you read books on tarot at the very beginning of your journey. It is ok to observe and get inspired by art or in this case by tarot books, but not when you are learning and your own artistic style or in this case meaning and style of reading has to form. You will get locked into the books weather you like it or love it. This is the way the brain works. Our arts teacher had nothing to do with tarot, but she knew how the brain works and tried hard to get the best out of us. She also said something about being lazy when doing the opposite of her recommendations, but then again that goes with the enthusiasm and the age, as that was in my high school years. Who wants in high school to be bothered with working hard, we just wanted to copy other artists that where good or good enough to get a good mark.

patter	29 Jan 2003
Yes but in art you are trying to create something new, in tarot you are trying to understand and personalise something very old -- tarot is a tool we make fit to our palm, not a tool we build from scratch [imho]. I mean if you lock someone away with a violin and no clue what is meant to be done with it -- they may make a very nice drum out of it... but I'd rather they were taught how to bow before they were encouraged to improvise. The art teachers knows that you know to press the pointy end of the pencil onto the page -- you are alredy past the 'learn the basics' stage in that discipline. And it is in the next apprentice and journey stages that i think intuition really kicks in -- not at the beginner stage.

Karenwhe	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 Whats so wrong with learning the traditions and language of Tarot? Could we, as a group, be participating in this forum, if we diddn't all speak Tarot? I would like to reflect on these two questions from my opinion and I hope I shall not offend anyone. I apologize ahead if that occurs as it is not intentional. 1. From my personal opinion it is not about learning the traditions and language of tarot the issue. The issue is WHEN to hit the books. Not IF to hit the books but WHEN (this is also what I understood from Umbrae’s post). At an early stage I tend to agree that one can't form or develop his own intuition and will get stuck in the books and that will make it harder. 2. I don't think that we all have to read books to participate in this forum. I for one, don't have one book on tarot yet, and I don't think I will have one for quite a long time, even though I have been reading them for 15 years. I still participate in this forum, and I think that I add my value from time to time, and I also see how much I learn from others, but for me it has nothing to do with books. Do books validate my participation in this forum? I should think not, or I am in the wrong place. Therefore my own conclusion for myself is that I don't need to read books to speak the Tarot language. And I also know so little about the history of tarot you would be surprised. Hope I will never get tested on Crowley :) :) :) :), I will fail for sure. The only thing I know about this guy is that he was a mad man and his wifes went to asylum and his kids died of negligence. And that has nothing to do with tarot but I heard that he (Crowley) has some importance in the tarot history. My point is that I do not believe we have to read books to talk tarot or the tarot language. And if nothing else, I am a living proof of that.

Umbrae	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Yes but in art you are trying to create something new, in tarot you are trying to understand and personalise something very old… "…Imagine a building divided into many rooms…Every wall is covered with pictures of various sizes…a Crucifixion by a painter who does not believe in Christ; flowers, human figures sitting, standing, walking etc…all this is printed in a book - name the artist - name the picture. People with these books in their hands go from wall to wall, turning over pages, reading the names. Then they go away, neither richer nor poorer than when they came, and are absorbed at once in their business, which has nothing to do with art. Why did they come? In each picture is a whole lifetime imprisoned, a whole lifetime of fears, doubts, hopes and joys… "…To harmonize the whole is the task of art. With cold eyes and indifferent mind the spectators regard the work. Connoisseurs admire the "skill" (as one admires a tightrope walker), enjoy the "quality of painting" (as one enjoys a pasty). But hungry souls go hungry away. "The vulgar herd stroll through the rooms and pronounce the pictures "nice" or "splendid". Those who could speak have said nothing, those that hear have heard noting. Thh9s condition of art is called "art for art's sake" This neglect of inner meanings, which is the life of colours, this vain squandering of artistic power is called "art for art's sake." Concerning the Spiritual in Art by Wassily Kandinsky. Then again, "You can only make art by setting it free. Anything else is just a memory, no matter how you store it, on film, paper, sculpt, or recorded. Everything that exists in a captured state, animate or inanimate wants to be free. Capturing an image on paper or stone is not art. Putting a story or poem on paper robs it of freedom. Music and dance come the closest to what real art is, so long as it is live. Musical notation is only dead ink on paper. Choreography is planning. Neither are art. But music can transform the most grim surroundings into a place of magic; for music gives voice to the mysteries that the voice cannot encompass." I view reading Tarot from the heart…real and true art…You may be "understanding and personalizing"…I am not… Some folks should read books. Some should not. Out in the real world, folks stand on corners and preach tolerance…accepting of others views which make a diverse whole. Just don't voice another view…for they value intelligence, but not intellect…

Silverlotus	29 Jan 2003
I'm a book person. I learned Tarot, and Wicca for that matter, in a vacuum. I was way to young to find a teacher when I started. And quiet honestly, book reading has always gotten me far in life, even when I was very little. I am a person who learns by reading. Pictures are great, which is why I like Tarot, but I learn by words. I have read a lot of bad books over the years, but I think I have been smart enough to realise which information is right for me and which isn't. I wasn't very smart in staying with a Tarot deck for many years even though it didn't work right for me. I never made it all the way through both of the books for it. I guess that should have been a clue right there. Anyway, my point is that there are lots of people out there who learn better by reading. I am, and I figured out ways to make a picture system (i.e. Tarot) work for me. I read the book, look at the cards at the same time, and make notes. I try to draw parallels, to find things in the card that correspond with the text. Maybe that's why the Three of Swords is one of my favourite cards. There is no question as to what it means. Once I'm done reading the book, I use the cards along with my notes. If things don't seem right, then I work with my notes and the cards to figure out what is wrong and how I can make it right. This system has worked for me. I still have a little pocket notebook on my bookshelf, dated October 25, 1992, with my notes on meanings taken from several years of work with books and two decks. It's interesting to read over what I thought ten years ago, when I was 15. (And to see my silly high school girl writing!) Today I am doing the same thing with different decks and different books, and my meanings are evolving and growing. Some are still the same, and some are very different. And I think that I would never have seen the cards the way I do now if I hadn't read some of the books I now treasure, such as Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom or Robin Wood Tarot: The Book. Both of those books are very different, but they both gave me an excellent new perspective on cards and meanings I thought had become old friends. I think the point that I am trying to make might be that reading a book might lock you into one mindset. But I think reading several books opens up new ideas. And if you never read a book, aren't you stuck with only your own ideas? Where do you get the nudge to take a meaning or a card into a whole different direction you may never have considered before?

Karenwhe	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Silverlotus And if you never read a book, aren't you stuck with only your own ideas? Where do you get the nudge to take a meaning or a card into a whole different direction you may never have considered before? Speaking only for myself, this is where the interesting part comes in. My meaning grow and they change from reading to reading, sometimes they don't even link to the images what so ever. I must admit that I have my blank spots, but the general picture is that I discover new meanings as I personally grow not as I read books. And they happen to be more true to me. The cards take a whole different direction by themselves, in specific reading and over time..... I can't rationalize this, but this is how it is for me. If I read meanings of cards on the net I feel like I am ticking off a grocery list "this is true for me, this is not" and putting a V or an X next to each point. It is boring. But them again I speak only for myself here, this is how I feel. I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the way to go, but I am trying to say that there is an option of not using books and it can work just as well as using books and you don’t have to be an extremist to do that. However for beginners that truly want to develop their intuition it is wise not to use books. It may be harder but pays off big time dividends in the long run.

patter	29 Jan 2003
Silverlotus... Indeed! There is a different between being the slave of one book versus being a reader of many. I think that books and conversations are what feeds my intuition -- mainly books in that only with the advent of the internet have I been able to talk directly to other tarotians. And of course everything I said reflects what is right for me rather than necessarily right for others [have i ever suggested otherwise?]. Just as we pick and choose useful parts from books, we must do the same from forums such as this ;)

patter	29 Jan 2003
To my mind, we cannot have each card meaning only and exactly what we choose it to mean. If my understanding of 'the fool' bears absolutely no relation at all to the meanings attributed to it by other users, then am I really reading taror at all. There is a degree to which at least some cards must have similar meanings to different people -- or communities like this would have little function?

Jewel	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood I think the people who say burn the books..Mean that the way to learn tarot is by intuition first...books second..books are a good add on..but should not be first because then your own views get muddles with the books views. Thank you RedWood ... that is what I mean. In my learning experience I went the book route first and found myself not trusting my intuition at all, and leaning on books as crutches. Then I "burned" (put away) the books, journaled and made myself use intuition and become more comfortable with that, then began using books as reference guides not crutches. I think what some of find as the beauty of the process of starting with intuition is that then when you open the books you find yourself quite surprised at how much you picked up on your own so you trust yourself even more. But as with everything ... different people learn in different ways and there is no right or wrong way, there is simply our own individual ways.

patter	29 Jan 2003
I guess like any polarised debate we might agree the truth in in the middle -- where in the middle being a matter of taste/emphasis/world view etc... ?

Silaria	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel In my learning experience I went the book route first and found myself not trusting my intuition at all, and leaning on books as crutches. I don't post often but felt I needed to contribute to this discussion. What Jewel describes is what I experienced. Even though my readings were still coming out accurate, I didn't feel successful at reading the cards deep in my heart. A connection was missing that something inside screamed should be there. The answer for me WAS the intuition. Reading the CARDS not the book. What I found was there were some cards that I just simply couldn't agree with the book's interpreation on because my instincts told me otherwise. (Side note: I use the Unicorn Tarot as my primary deck. IMO some of the artists interpretations just don't match the "starndard" RWS meanings and for me reading the cards and trusting myself is more important.) I feel, based on my own experiences, that it is necessary to develop your instincts with the cards; to learn to trust yourself. All too often we, as humans, get hung up on "being right" that the books become a crutch. The books are a tool and guide, just as the cards themselves are a tool and guide. When I advise people who are just starting out with the cards, I suggest they put the LWB away, get the book that accomanies the deck itself for the artist's insight into the design of the cards, and to get a journal. I suggest them look at each card, usually as a "card of the day" pull, and 1 - write down what they initially get out of the card; what their eye is first drawn to; what it makes them feel; what they THINK about the card. 2 - I tell them to go about their business for the day (assuming they draw the card in the morning. 3 - I tell them to come home and note anything during the day that may tie in with the card. 4 - I tell them to THEN look up the "standard" meaning of the card. This gives the new reader a chance to develop their own intuition and still gain the "book" knowlege to expand their views. Intuition, books, discussion with others - I honestly feel ALL are necessary when studying Tarot. To ignore 1 or more completely leaves you with incomplete understanding and knowledge.

Minos	29 Jan 2003
I'm of two minds on this one. What it comes down to is that when you do a tarot reading, you make a pronouncement about human nature based on looking at an arbitrary symbol set, which acts as a jog to your memory. In order to do this, you need to learn the arbitrary symbol set. That's where books on tarot come in. But once you've got that down, the more important thing is to understand more about human nature, so that when the cards jog your memory, there'll be something there for them to jog. Books on tarot are great for learning the symbol set. But for insightful commentary on human nature, they are not necessarily the best. Quite often, a Simpsons episode or a good play or a new CD or just sitting and talking with a friend tells you a lot more about human nature, and thus tarot, than all the tarot books in the world. So I'm pro-book. But I'm only pro-one-or-two-books.

Khatruman	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife Please Khatruman, could you say more about your last two sentences. I'm hooked but I don't fully understand. Please could you develop it? Eve Ok, let me give it a try. :D I guess, being a teacher, I see how our understandings and concepts take root in the very words we use. Today, our understanding of imagination has the connotation of "made up". We live in a very left-brained, scientific, seeing is believing world where myth means a made up story and is therefore not "true". Truth to us tends to mean something we can perceive with our senses, through the images we get through the five senses. We often forget how subjective our own perceptions of the world are. There are an infinite number of things we are bombarded with every second through our five senses. Our brains have to take the stimuli and decide what we should be paying attention to. We emphasize that which our brains determine to be important. For example, what if you took a tape recorder with you to a cocktail party. You get into conversations, you hear others across the room, you pay attention to certain things, all the while recording everything your ears were hearing. Now, take that tape home and play it. You will be disconcerted to find that voices that boomed in your ears may be barely audible on the tape. Your mind focused and enhanced some sounds selectively, and deadened others it felt weren't important. I do this exercise with my students when we read Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself." I will talk about that, and mention that, at that moment, they are filtering out the sound of the heating system (or air conditioner in summer).. and I point to it. I tell them, "You weren't hearing that sound before, but now that I have called your attention to it, you hear it loudly, don't you? The volume has not changed, I just made it now more important in your minds." It is also the same as when you hear and learn a word for the first time. Then, the word keeps popping up all over the place. The word was always there, your mind now says it is important. Ok, back to my imagination point. Our minds give us the reality of our world. If we are under the belief that "Life Sucks" everything we see in the world will show this to be true, we will see terrible things happening and won't notice the good happening in the world because, after all, we know that life sucks. We have filtered the images of the world through our imagination, so in effect, we are "making up" our world. What is true, then, is what fits our imagination. When we are children, and haven't been taught what is "real" and "true" we see things that grown ups see as simply make believe, and we are told that they aren't real. I still have a memory of when I was perhaps seven years old, and I lived by a bay. I "remember" seeing a dinosaur, something like a tyrannosaurus rex, rear itself up out of the center of the bay, roar to the sky and slip back down beneath the water. In my memory, I saw that dinosaur just as I saw a tree in my backyard; it wasn't any different an image, any less real. So I guess my point is that to dismiss imagination as simply "making stuff up" is to ignore the power of it, and to ignore the reality that truth is much more subjective than many realize. One must realize that the root of imagination, both linguistically and in reality, is image, what comes to our senses. It is interesting how many abstract concepts linguistically have root in concrete experience. For instance, the word inspiration has its root in the Latin spirare, "to breathe". Which is saying that inspiration comes quite literally from the breathing in of the very air around you... Did I make any sense?

Aoife	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Did I make any sense? Yes, absolutely - but it's a lot for me to take in. I need to take time to mull it over. What an excellent teacher you must be IRL - your explanation was brilliant. Many thanks Eve

firemaiden	30 Jan 2003
harking back to an earlier part of the discussion, in defense of Umbrae, I say, Who was it who said, "if you can't set a good example, at least you can serve as a horrible warning" -- or words to that effect? I will serve you as the horrible warning until future notice: have read reams of books, but can't read tarot worth beans. hahahahahah Now I have read Khatruman's long post, and must say, this is beautifully put, and enlightening, serves to show how some of us are describing the back end of the elephant and some of us the front end...

patter	30 Jan 2003
Books are like maps, you can use them well, or poorly. While using a map you can only go places shown on the map. After discarding it you may find places you never dreamed existed, but you are more likely to just get lost. Some benefit from taking the risk -- but I prefer to play it safe.... ;)

Silverlotus	30 Jan 2003
What about reading a book that helps you see the images more clearly? I have just finished reading The Robin Wood Tarot: The Book, and quite honestly I don't think I will ever look at another Tarot card the same again. She has helped me to see the symbolism in the slightest thing, the lift of a hand, the colour of an eye. I think I will be able to read my decks, all of them, better for this. Something that may not have happened, or not for many years, if it wasn't for reading this book. Of course, I'm sure there are wonderfully lucky people out there who are much more in tune with symbolism then I am. :) Like I said before, I tend to be a word person.

lili	30 Jan 2003
some books will tell you that before starting to read the meanings of the card in their book to examine each card on the deck and to look any single detail and see what stand out on your mind, if there any thing that make you feel uncomfortable and once you have studied each ilustration, write down your impressions of the card the details, what each detail means to you and what you think each card has to say. When I saw this for fist time on a book it seemed like a waist of time i just wanted to jump that part and start with the meaning, now I'm glad i did not do it because like the book told me this is an opportunity you will only get once, because once you have read someone else's impresisons of the tarot, that will forever affect how you see the cards, some people will disagree but it was what worked for me. First put the book at side try to get your own meaning and later check with a book, you will be surprise.

Umbrae	30 Jan 2003
I think it’s wonderful, after standing as the lone extremist for so long to see others come out of the dark corner. Khatruman – wise brilliant words, everyone should go back and read his posts again. Back in the Essay in “The Process” on ‘Flashes’, I touched briefly on “It’s in your imagination”…well although I am not nearly as scholarly as Khatruman (he says it so much better), all I can say is…”What if it’s not…?” Lili brought out brilliant points…that author was correct…you get one chance. Someone once said, “You are only a virgin for so long, enjoy it while it lasts.” Very true. Jewel…come out of that corner. Silaria, I would hug you but we do not know each other well enough…yet. Aoife…not the novice you think. Firemaiden…you are doing just fine. Wonderful discussion…wonderful! If your name was not mentioned…you’re okay too. Wonderful discussion. Those of you who have read my rantings for a while may remember that I have recommended one particular book from time to time (“oh my gawd he knows how to read”). That book is The Complete Book of Tarot Reversals by Mary K. Greer. Guess what…it is a book all about…meanings. Quote: This book contains meanings for reversals based on many different theories and traditions. The intent is to give you a background in both “traditional” Tarot meanings and modern approaches to generating such meanings based on principals and analogies drawn from numbers, elements, and pictures. The interpretations are meant to stimulate your own intuitive ideas . As you try them out, note which approach works best for you. This will depend, in part, on your own world-view, style of reading, purpose in doing the reading, and kind of questions asked. From the book *(emphasis added) What a refreshing approach. Wonder why it is the only book I ever recommend? Some folks need books. Some folks will never do anything more creative with a toothpick than remove the olive. However many folks misuse books. You know, this chair is wobbly, if I take a copy of A Short History of Financial Euphoria by John Kenneth Galbraith, and wrap it in this Spread Cloth…

Trogon	30 Jan 2003
This has been an absolutely fascinating thread. Everyone has made excellent points and observations to both "sides". It is discussions of this sort which make me so very glad to be a member of the Aeclectic Tarot family. :D My own experience has been a little bit of both sides of the issue. I have to say that I am pretty good at learning things from a book... anything technical especially. I learned how to operate computers from books - but computers are very logical... or they were until Windows 98. :P ;) The point is I can learn those sorts of things from books. However, I started out trying to learn Tarot several years ago with one book by Eden Gray and a Rider-Waite Tarot deck. I struggled along with the book meanings for quite some time... until last year. When I finally found - . (How's that for kissing up? :* ) Since then I have become a Tarot-holic... which means that I have started expanding my horizons. I have several books (including the only one recommended by Umbrae - possibly the best there is) and 9 decks now. What does all this mean? Well, pretty much diddly-squat, bupkis, zilch. What really counts is that making the connection with other people who read Tarot is what really made things click for me. It all started coming together. And my intuition has started leading me more than the books are now. My point? I guess it is that for every one of us individuals, it takes a different process, different steps, different things for us to learn Tarot. Or to learn anything else for that matter. Some people can pick up a deck with almost no exposure to Tarot beforehand and toss out some cards and do a reading for someone and be "spot on". There are undoubtedly those who can struggle for decades with different books and decks and never be able to do a decent reading. I tend to think the rest of us are on the proverbial bell-curve in between these extremes. As a side-note: my mother's Tarot deck, an Albano-Waite from the '60s, does not have an LWB with it. My mother struggled for quite a while trying to figure out how to use the Tarot with no guidance whatsoever. She finally gave it up and the cards have sat unused for decades ... till she recently gave them to me. This is an example of what probably happens more often than not when someone tries to learn something as complex as the Tarot in a complete vacuum. One other note; I found Patter's thoughts here rather interesting; Quote: Originally posted by patter I guess like any polarised debate we might agree the truth in in the middle -- where in the middle being a matter of taste/emphasis/world view etc... ? I mostly agree with the sentiment here, however ... I'm not sure I'd use the word "truth" in this context. I am not completely sure if there is any absolute truth in this debate. What works for person A, may not work for Person Z. What works for person R, probably won't work for person L. This is all about learning and, to one extent or another, most of us have different things that work for us.

Karenwhe	30 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon What works for person A, may not work for Person Z. What works for person R, probably won't work for person L. This is all about learning and, to one extent or another, most of us have different things that work for us. I totally agree with this statement. However it did remind of one minor issue. Tarot is a tool for divination (or whatever you may want to call it) and not all tools suit all people. I for one try many things and those that don't fit me I don't try to force myself to learn. If I need 10 books to get the hang of something I just don't do it. It either doesn't fit my needs and I am forcing it or it is not the time yet, and I move on to the next thing. I believe that all good things in life are not only free but are also very simple. Things that don't flow for me, are not for me at this point in time. That does not come to say that I will not try later the same thing again and see if it works. What I am trying to say is, that there is a slight possibility that some people turn to books and more books and more books because the medium they choose doesn't suit them at this time or not at all and they should try something else to grow with. Not everything is for everybody I for one work in technology but I know I will never be a programmer (as much as I wanted at one point) I just understood that this doesn't suit me.

firemaiden	30 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe Tarot is a tool for deviation (or whatever you may want to call it) I think that's an excellent thing to call it! :D:D:D

ihcoyc	30 Jan 2003
I'm of two minds here. My first impulse would be to claim I am a traditionalist. I am, at heart. I prefer pip card decks in part because they are centuries old, and in part because my first deck was such a deck. Dealing with a Marseilles-related deck, or an old Italian deck, or an early painted deck, I know among other things that it represents symbols that predate any known system of tarot cartomancy. I feel plugged in and rooted with such a deck in a way I don't with a modernised deck. The Golden Dawn/Rider-Waite-Smith tradition of interpretation is again what I grew up with. However, I rebel slightly against it, seeking to harmonize the meanings of the cards by element and by numerology, staying within the tradition as much as it allows, varying when one card is wildly different from the rest of its number. (Usually that's a Sword) In my mind, this allows the Minors to become a seamless web. It also results in a broader range of meanings, without having to memorize as many book-meanings. My attitudes towards books are the same. Gifted people probably could sit down, at least with the Majors, and read them just by free-associating with the pictures and titles, relying on their own background knowledge mental gifts, whatever their sources. They are all relatively well known symbols. But even free-associating does not occur in a vacuum. The more background knowledge you have about enigmatic figures like the Papess, the Wheel of Fortune, Temperance, the Devil, and all the rest, the more your mind has to draw on. These images were chosen for a reason. They were all old and had long histories when the tarot was newly invented. Knowing something of that history opens the symbols up for you. Read --- but for Cthulhu's sake don't just read Llewellyn books. Read history. Read literature. Dream you are a Renaissance prince. Have Lorenzo and Lucretia over for a friendly game of cards. Every book you read is a new addition to your mind. And the more you know generally, the more resonance the symbols will have for you.

firemaiden	31 Jan 2003
Yeah, they were topoi, (plural of topos?) Figures like the wheel of fortune, occuring over and over again in literature at least as far back as Roman times...hey all you classics scholars out there, am I right? as far back as the Greeks?

Minos	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Yeah, they were topoi, (plural of topos?) Yep. :) Quote: Figures like the wheel of fortune, occuring over and over again in literature at least as far back as Roman times...hey all you classics scholars out there, am I right? as far back as the Greeks? Fortuna (Greek 'tyche') was a popular figure for both the Greeks and Romans, both as an allegory and as an actual figure of worship. There were temples of Fortuna all over the Roman world, especially ones built in unstable times like the Late Republic. When the Greeks founded cities all over the Middle East during the Hellenistic age, Tyche was second only to Cybele for popularity as a city patron god. Meditation on the fickleness of fortune was a popular stock piece of both Greek and Latin orators, alongside the dangers of tyranny, the decadence of contemporary morals, the profitability of education for the young, etc. But as far as I can figure, the image of the wheel of fortune specifically seems to have originated in the very late Roman Empire. The source from which the Medievals would have got it was the philosopher Boethius (c.480-c.525 AD). I've also Googled up a mention in the historian Ammianus Marcellinus (c.330 - 395 AD), but that seems to be about as early as it gets. So it's "only" about 1600 years old. :) ***That's wrong. I'm going to bed now, but will post why in the morning.***

patter	31 Jan 2003
Sometimes the right things come easily. But this also depends on who you are and what you are doing. I didn't finished my degrees without making myself learn things that didn't come naturally, and reading a hell of a lot of books -- but it was still a thing I was 'meant' to do. Tarot came hard to me, and I edged up to it by reading a LOT of books, before \i was ready to 'let go' and follow my feelings. Whatever works, eh?

Moongold	31 Jan 2003
I've only done a few readings for other people, some here and some for a couple of friends. Mostly I read for myself as a kind of personal development thing. I've learned quite a bit about Tarot through study and through these personal readings. On Wednesday evening I did my first ever reading for someone I don't know well at all. It went really well. Things just flowed. I didn't find myself blocked at all. It was very interactive and the interpretations developed as we went through the CC spread. I had a picture to start with but it evolved into something else as we spoke. It was the first time she had seen the Morgan Greer deck and the images delighted her. It was fun and we had a lot of laughs. I heard the most interesting version of the Devil that I've ever heard. *Change* - yes - but in the form of one of her spirit guides - quite a friendly and interesting fellow really. It was intuitive and playful. I must say that until this experience a lot of these discussions have seemed interesting but academic to me. Now I know I can just do it. But I did need some study to start with. Moongold

magpie9	31 Jan 2003
Note: Read at your own risk, contains attempted humor :) Reading through all of this, thus far, it seems to me that it’s not so much the idea of book learning’-- (I dunno, Clyde, if we let them read books, maybe they’ll forgit how to think on their own….they might even forgit how to talk, what with all that readin’ and writen’ ….sounds dangerous to me..) As the possibility of having one’s own unique view and understanding of the tarot squashed before it ever has a chance to develop. There’s also the possibility of getting the message from an authoritarian author that there is only one right way to read the cards, which is presented in this here book. (Deviation is not acceptable, Great Kathulu will come down on high and personally confiscate your deck. It will also go on your Permanent Record, and by the way, you will go to hell. Mary Alice, would you like to share that note with the class?) Yeah, I can see how that could cripple a young-to-tarot mind. And not only can Umbrae read (I suspected as much) but there is an actual book he recommends. Which I have not read, not being all that big on reversals (New Thread !?New Thread ?!) But will go find and read now that it comes so highly recommended. Even though I’m not big on reversals, and all. A book I actually recommend to new (but not brand new) readers is: Tarot Dictionary and Compendium by Jana Riley. Which presents a quick quote of the views of many different taroists about each of the cards. And the elements, and the numbers, and so on. It’s presented in an impartial manner. It’s useful for finding out more about each card in various schools of thought. It’s also helpful in discovering Taroists you’d like to read more of, and some you never want to read more of. I can’t compare it to Greer’s Tarot Reversals, not having read that yet, but from the description Umbrae included, I think they’re probably working with a similar concept. Personally, I think these forums (and this site) are the best thing out there for all of us taroists to meet and greet on. (I swear I’m Not Sucking Up –I’m too old and mean to suck up anymore) I learn something every time I come to Aclectic Tarot. (Sometimes humility ) (Oooh, Ick :( ) It gives a community I for one could not have imagined 40 years ago when I saw my first deck. Or a year ago, for that matter, before I got on the net. Or on the web. Or whatever you call this-here newfangled thing. Past my bedtime now, going into my magnificantly insane work week. g'nite all :) :) Magpie9

Aoife	31 Jan 2003
and now I'm wishing I'd never read all those books and even never looked at other people's pictures. Yet they were what drew me to tarot in the first place - even if now those images seem imprinted in my mind. And I am trying to clear my mind. I have had to put away my lovely decks and start again to make my own deck from blank [index style] cards. 1st dimension: I start with the number. What for example does #9 mean to me? Where and how has 'nine' been significant in my life experience? I look at the shape of the figure - a straight line topped and joined by a circle; the roman numeral [a i and an x - a single upright line and two lines diagonally crossing, intersecting at a central point] - what do these mean to me? I randomly place 9 dots on paper then draw lines to connect them - what shapes do they make? I do it again, differently. Do the shapes have integrity, stability or are they fragile, unstable? Can I see pictures emerging from the shapes? What connections can I draw from all of this? 2nd dimension: I move on to the element [air/ fire/ water/ earth] What for example does air me to me? How and where has 'air' been significant in my life experience? I stop and allow myself to experience 'air', to float through it - what can I touch, what do I see, hear, smell, taste, feel? What connections can I make? What connections can I make between my musing from the first and second dimensions? At this point I can put the title on my index card. The Nine of Swords. 3rd dimension: I look now at the connection to the major arcana. The Hermit and The Moon. I try to connect my musings from the first and second dimensions to what I feel about the majors. e.g. the air feels cooled in both cards [ possibly chilled, maybe balmy] - how does it feel when I connect back to my second dimension musings? 4th dimension: And here I can say nothing for sure - although I know I'm now in an intensely personal area. But am I am in the realms of imagination or tapping into the collective unconscious or am I in the realms of spirit? . I just don't know ..... And now I've reached the point of making my mark on my 9 of swords card - with words, pictures, doodles, found images I've clipped and collaged. I know this sounds like an arduous process - but I'm determined not to make it so. I dip in and out. Some areas demand my attention first - I go with it, and then go with the flow. Maybe I'm on a Fool's journey - who knows? But it's my journey! And so it has a value for me - and at the moment it feels like it may well be a life's journey, changing/evolving as does my life.

firemaiden	31 Jan 2003
WOW! Thank you for that Minos, Thanks for joining Aeclectic, how's Pasiphae?. ;)So there we go, I knew the Wheel of Fortune had to be old, because it seemed already pretty well worn by the time it got into the medieval french stuff I read. Now I know why they made us read Boethius. hmm...or tried to. I'm looking forward to hearing the rest when you wake up. What time zone are you in?

Minos	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden WOW! Thank you for that Minos, Thanks for joining Aeclectic, Thanks. I'm enjoying it. Quote: how's Pasiphae?. ;) Last I heard she was over in Atu XI or VIII or something, under one of a couple pseudonyms. We're doing fine here in Atu V without her...*sigh* :) Quote: So there we go, I knew the Wheel of Fortune had to be old, because it seemed already pretty well worn by the time it got into the medieval french stuff I read. Now I know why they made us read Boethius. hmm...or tried to. I'm looking forward to hearing the rest when you wake up. As it turns out, the wheel of fortune metaphor definitely did have a history before Ammanius Marcellinus and Boethius. Cicero uses it at least once, in Against Piso X: "ne tum quidem fortunae rotam pertimescebat" ("nor did he even then become fearful of the wheel of fortune.") It's also implicit in a passage in Herodotus, where the captive Croesus the Lydian (who is basically the idea of Atu X embodied, Jovian elements and all) tells Cyrus: "Human life is a revolving wheel and never allows the same people to continue long in prosperity." Boethius definitely took it much further (they liked their allegories laid on thick in his time) but the image certainly did have a history before him. Quote: What time zone are you in? Don't ask! Was pulling a bit of an all-nighter last night.

Jewel	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Jewel…come out of that corner. ~chuckles~ what do you mean by that? honestly I am not sure what you mean but it cracked me up. If you will tell me what you mean I promise to come out of my corner (where-ever it is) *LOL*

Umbrae	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel ~chuckles~ what do you mean by that? honestly I am not sure what you mean but it cracked me up. If you will tell me what you mean I promise to come out of my corner (where-ever it is) *LOL* Jewel…read your own signature…

Jewel	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Jewel…read your own signature… OHHHHHHHH that corner ... what should I do when I come out? or am I being to emotional about all of this *LOL*

firemaiden	31 Jan 2003
Okay Umbrae, Mojo just solved my headache about the RWS 4 of swords with a history lesson. Without that missing piece, I wasn't going to get anywhere with the image...alas...che mi canti?

firemaiden	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minos As it turns out, the wheel of fortune metaphor definitely did have a history before Ammanius Marcellinus and Boethius. Thank you Minos! What a resource you are. Can you write a book for us on Classical & Medieval Topoi and the Tarot? (since we're on the subject of burning books...)

Minos	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Thank you Minos! What a resource you are. Can you write a book for us on Classical & Medieval Topoi and the Tarot? (since we're on the subject of burning books...) No way you're gonna get me to read Boethius. :)

Silaria	31 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Silaria, I would hug you but we do not know each other well enough…yet. Hopefully that will change. :) Quote: Originally posted by Trogon [b] I have to say that I am pretty good at learning things from a book... anything technical especially. I learned how to operate computers from books - but computers are very logical... or they were until Windows 98. :P ;) The point is I can learn those sorts of things from books. However, I started out trying to learn Tarot several years ago with one book by Eden Gray and a Rider-Waite Tarot deck. I struggled along with the book meanings for quite some time... until last year. When I finally found - Trogon, I'm a techy through and through. My mind operates in a logical world more times than not. Stepping out of that world to read Tarot is a combination of a pleasure, a challenge and a gift. The Tarot offer me a gift - the ability to thing abstractly. To view things from a different point of view instead of getting locked "inside the box". However, I only opened this gift when I made an effort to trust my instincts instead of depending on the books. My books are still close by because I still have cards I get stuck on but this will change over time. (This is mostly the Court Cards and a few of the Majors.) Quote: Originally posted by Trogon What works for person A, may not work for Person Z. What works for person R, probably won't work for person L. This is all about learning and, to one extent or another, most of us have different things that work for us. Very true. :D

firemaiden	01 Feb 2003
I agree Minos, there's nnnnnnnnnnno way you'll get me to read Boethius either...hahahah... one of the worst memories of grad school ever. And this summer I tried to sell my Consulations of Philosophy to a used bookstore, unmarked. NOONE would take it...:rolleyes:

The about the "throw the book" thing thread was originally posted on 28 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.