do gender specific's have make any difference when reading for a Q?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

zander770	04 Jan 2003
does knowing gender specific's have any factor or make any difference when reading tarot for a querent?!? or, rather: does it matter if the reader knows wether the querent is male or female? this question was posed in another thread of mine, because i thought ("assumed") that someone there was a male when they were female (and this has also happened apx five- six times, to me before, here), so, i thought i'd begin a new thread regarding the matter. see? this never happened to me, ever, on other lists/boards, and, at first i thought that this was odd ("half-a-dozen times?!!?"), and thought that that was because many of us use non-specific monikers for user names, w/some rather wild and creative ones, at that! then, i realized, "no, that's hardly a a.t. 'thing,' for people on other boards do the same thing, too," so . . . i wonder! i have checked people's profiles, perhaps before a reading or for another reason, and that isn't always at all helpful, either, as you know. many people chose not to profide this sort of private information, i understand, but do you also "understand" that just because you READ IT in my profile and under my name: phoenix, arizona doesn't necessarily mean that i live her, was born here, am writing this post from there, et cetera! also, as tarot readers and as "intuitive, open, and sensitive" people we DO have to reley upon "assumptions," at times. so then: off the "top of my head" i say, "yes! it 'does make a difference' for me as a reader to know if my querent is a man or a woman," and now, here i'm recalling lots of "general readings" where i know absolutely nothing about the Q (on-line, obviously), thus having to "gear my language" . . . my "wording," as it were, including Both sexes and/or being non-gender specific, e.g., "i see that s/he'll be sorry when you..." etc and a LOT of pronouns, e.g., "it, they, them, those," etc. this can quickly become affected, for me; stiff and forced; one-dimensional, like a cardboard cut-out of the person and most probably NOT them, at all! so, what i at first thought was an "easy answer" for me; one i might have answered "off the top of my head" has turned into an interesting quandary! and, i do have my opinions and thoughts on this, but first i'd like just to submit the post and read everyone else's thoughts and opinions, first, before further comment. thank you. ~770 :TKIP

kayne	04 Jan 2003
Interesting point. :) I think the more you know about a quarent the more you can tailor a reading to suit them more. I guess gender is one of the basics and even sexual orientation might be useful too...

zander770	04 Jan 2003
i noticed this thread after i had posted this, last night, and they too mentioned "the buzz" around the board regarding this topic. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10266 i am really wondering, now, just how frequently a male from a.t. reffers to a woman, here (on a thread, pm, email, where ever), AND vise versa?!!? anyone, save ME, care to "admit" that? and, if that ("my assuming 5, 6 women here were men, for 'some' reason") HAS OCCURED, here, amoung other's, then . . . i wonder why? are people here "attempting," trying, striving to be absolutely annonymous? and, if so i'd like to know why, exactly! lord, yes, i can "think up" two-dozen "reasons," i suppose, but... and, just to be perfectly clear, there were NO ill-words or any thing like that . . . so? i see three things/topics currently: 1) gender specific "roles" as symbols on tarot keys - - the "MAN" = masculine asspects on the cards, "WOMAN" = feminine aspects on the cards; subverting much of the traditional gender roles symbolically, as robin wood's accomplished in her deck (e.g., #14/temperance, #15/the devil). 2) do w/also make MANY ASSUMPTIONS when reading tarot depending upon gender (and "other things") and is this difference--if there IS one!--profoundly moreso durring on-line readings? 3) does it occur here at a.t.? (does it matter?) ~770 :TTEMP

Thirteen	04 Jan 2003
When I did online readings, the requirement was that the person had to state their date of birth and sex. That way you knew their age and zodiac sign. They also had to clearly state a question. There is no doubt that this helps enormously. They can't play games with you if they want a real answer. And you can tell them it's like lying to a doctor--you don't get the right medication if you make up symptoms. People who remain secretive or lie sometimes do so to test you, thinking that if you're a real psychic, you'll know. If that's the case, they're already hostile and you might as well forget about it, let them play games with someone else. Or you can keep very third-person--you get the Empress you don't say "This is you," instead you say, "I see a woman who is...." and see if they say, "That's me!" or "That's my wife!"

Alex	04 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by zander770 or, rather: does it matter if the reader knows wether the querent is male or female? I always ask and I don't see why someone would deny me such information. It's something obvious unless you have two computer screens between you and the querent. Quote: Originally posted by zander770 this question was posed in another thread of mine, because i thought ("assumed") that someone there was a male when they were female (and this has also happened apx five- six times, to me before, here), so, i thought i'd begin a new thread regarding the matter. there are a few people in this forum that I would die thinking they are men until they said somewhere that they are women. The contrary never happened. I think the avatars sometimes suggest a gender and the style of writting does suggest a gender as well. I myself have been taken as a man in many online forums on different subjects. Quote: Originally posted by zander770 also, as tarot readers and as "intuitive, open, and sensitive" people we DO have to reley upon "assumptions," at times. Many of these assumptions are unconscious and have to do with the way we perceive both sexes. The english language makes it harder to guess. In my mother tongue, there's no way you can communicate with someone online without that person's sex becoming evident. For example, in English, both men and women say "thanks". In Potuguese, women say "obrigadA" men say "obrigadO". Sometimes online querents forgett that the readings are to HELP THEM DEAL WITH THEIR OWN ISSUES. Reading is NOT A WAY FOR ME TO PROVE TO PEOPLE THAT I AM A PSYCHIC. I feel absolutely no obligation to guess their sex, age, race, geographical location, nationality etc.. The more I know about these obvious things, the easier it will be for me to say SOMETHING HELPUL. If they don't want to hear something helpful then it's not my responsibility either that I can't guess what they carry between their legs. Thanks for raising the subject, Zander. That's interesting and should be more discussed about. Alex.

Macavity	04 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex there are a few people in this forum that I would die thinking they are men until they said somewhere that they are women. [...] I myself have been taken as a man in many online forums on different subjects. An interesting observation. :) In a work context, I know sometimes I have been surprised to discover some correspondants ARE female, but indeed cannot recall the inverse. Hmmm, I'm pretty good at spotting male style of thinking though - from personal Experience? ;) But I think it is increasingly established that physical and gender characteristics aside, it's quite possible to have a BRAIN that has most of the usual skills and attributes of the other sex. Maybe on THOSE grounds one might even consider reading appropriately for the querent's perceived or "brain-sex" - Which is where all the information is going to be assimilate and maybe acted upon? Nah, probably not, but it's an amusing thought... Mac P.S. Nope, come to think of it I WAS in fact surprised to discover ONE member here was after all male I will neither embarrass nor compliment HIM on creating that "deception" - Fwiw mostly based on (my) perception of particular empathetic and intuitive Tarot skills? So the exception clearly proves the rule. A notable first maybe? :D

Moongold	04 Jan 2003
Mostly it isn't an issue here because I think that gender is so implicit in everything we do that it reveals itself almost as a matter of course. Knowing some basic facts about a person can surely assist a reader to cut to the chase when doing a reading. Having said that, it is surprising what things reveal themselves, however. I remember a reading where two Pages appeared and in the context of the overall reading I knew they had to represent children although the Querent had not offered the fact that she has children. This question emphasizes some of the differences between face-to-face readings and internet readings. One does have to be so careful of the assumptions once makes when seeing a person in reality. I used to do a lot of recruitment and often you have a very strong first impression of a job applicant which can later be proved incorrect. It's easy to pick up the wrong messages really quickly. I've just thought of Umbrae's "tooth pick" readings here in a very different light. Moongold

Ophiel	05 Jan 2003
Another possibility you aren't considering is that someone might intentionally disguise their sex. Our group seems to be pretty up and up, but I know there are a lot of deception online. I used to chat, and one guy was pretending to be a foul-mouthed 14 yr old kid, when in fact he was a 23 yr old man who had been banned from the Excite chat system on numerous times using other aliases. And there are all kinds of predators looking for 'action.' And what about transsexuals who might have some issues with exactly what sex they are? And perhaps some of the readers in this group have encountered antagonistic people who lie about who and what they are, what they really want?

Thirteen	05 Jan 2003
Well, Transexuals are usually pretty positive about what sex they are--whether or not their body reflects it. Ask a male transexual if he's a man or a woman and he'll tell you, "I'm a woman!" insisting on being called by his feminine name, using the ladies bathroom, etc. Most feel it important to be identified as chosen sex on i.d. cards as well. So, I would say that if they say they're a woman, they're a woman, and the only problem "transexually" you might have is if you tell them they're going to be pregnant. Not possible for the transexual--but in that case, possible that they're going to metaphorically give birth to something else--or become a parent soon if not already.

HudsonGray	05 Jan 2003
Hmm, I wasn't trying to hide whether I was male or female, I just used our cat's name as a screen name (using your own name can get some problems sometimes)--but gender wise for a reading, I think it could shift focus in certain specific areas. Children for one thing--if it's a pregnancy issue, the next few cards could mean something completely different if the querant was male instead of female. I don't know how often not knowing the gender would interfere with a result of a reading, but I'm sure it could just from an interpretive focus. My beef (small as it is) is not knowing which country someone is from or posting from--I'd find things more compelling knowing someone is from Singapore & has a totally different take on something, or from Brazil or England, or wherever. Some boards I'm on are mostly Australian (it's a hoot!), but most are 90% USA.

DarkElectric	06 Jan 2003
Interesting question here. There have been people on this forum who were surprised to discover that I am a woman instead of a man. I have been mistaken for a man in other places as well. I'm proud of my gender and have never attempted to disguise it, but I have always wondered just what it was about my posts that would lead someone to believe I was not female! Anyway, back to querents. In my opinion, it's much less important to know someone's gender (although it IS an important factor) than to ascertain their correct sexual orientation. Nothing is more awkward than telling a client that they will meet the man of their dreams, and then find out at the end of the reading that the client is a lesbian. This sort of behaviour destroys a reader's credibility. It's unprofessional, and to just assume someone is heterosexual I find to be, at best, very rude. But, I think it is important for accuracy's sake to know a bit about who you're reading for. This definitely includes gender, albeit I live by the maxim that "People are People" regardless of the body they're born into. I find most folks are concerned about the same issues no matter who they are. Love, Money, Family, or Career Problems, Health. These are the questions I get asked about. I like to know their age too. As people get older they become more concerned with different things. Someone extremely concerned with love and romance at 25 might be more concerned with health at 55. People tend to always be interested in finances, but as life progresses it seems to go from "Will I be raking it in" to "Will I be able to stay afloat". As life stages and needs change, so do questions. It serves one best to banish stereotypes of every nature, if any are held, from one's mode of thought. Sexual, racial, physically challenged, etc. Judgemental attitudes make for a limited reader, and a limited person as well. And nobody wants to be one of those!

tarotbear	06 Jan 2003
Yes, I feel that being gender-specific is of importance, particularly since I do 'live' readings 98% of the time. This is what lead me to the start of the second book-in-the-works with my collaborator (RT Kaser of 'Tarot in Ten Minutes'). Both of us feel that most Tarot books are written BY women FOR women, and that men are not addressed effectively or effeciently. Since most of my client base is gay males, the average tarot 'description' for a card just does not work. I used to get a reading a day sent to me. They would refer to my 'lady friend' (sorry, my partner has a penis just like I do), my 'female relatives' or some such heterosexual terminology. It just doesn't work for me. In my quest I sought out the Cosmic Tribe Tarot since I was told it was a Gay deck ('gay-friendly' is a better term) however IMHO an abundance of naked male appendanges does not make a deck 'gay'. I also find the explanations for the cards get a little too erudite, too 'Airy-Fairy' to make them usable, or at least quotable. Men do not process information the way women do. Gay men see things differently than straight men. Some readers have disagreed with me. They say they read 'energy', not sexuality. Then why are you missing the fact that the female energy you see is my friend Bob who is extremely effeminate? Or the 'strong woman' you see in the Queen of Swords is really my ex-boyfriend Joe who is built like a linebacker? I see them quite clearly when you spread my cards. Or it is that you twitter too much when you see the Queens come up when you read for gay men? Honey - I've seen them all! I feel it is time to apply the world to Tarot, not apply Tarot to the world. Onward and upward, tarot needs to grow and flow. I will continue to work on my book, trying to make it readable to all men so I don't turn the straight ones off by being 'too gay.' It might be a great 'party' book to have on the coffee table - or it could be the best new concept in Tarot in a long time. Don't you want to raise your readings above mere stereotype?

mrsjvan	06 Jan 2003
Gender, sexual orientation, age are all helpful things to know. As far as gender goes, I have mistaken a male as a female here at A.T. I have a very difficult time discerning male from female on line to be honest. I think that is a reason I use a user name that distinguishes my sex. I have been told that I have some very masculine personality traits and I have found that I have a difficult time discerning male gender traits from female gender traits based simply on a writing style. I am very feminine but at the same time I'm masculine. So, on the one hand I can see how knowing a person's gender would be helpful but on the other I am sure there are many people out there who are like me. Who display both traits at a fairly equal levels. In which case it would only be helpful if you were trying to distinguish sexual orientation or genitalia and not when looking at the persons core personality. I also have a homosexual brother and good friend who is a transexual and I think that in some cases a person's sex has very little stereotypically to do with who they really are. For me, on a comfort level, I still like to know a person's sex, if for no other reason than it feels much more personal to me. I agree with DarkElectric that age is helpful too. I think knowing all of these things about a quarent could only enhance their experience and the usefulness of a reading. As Alex said I am trying to help this person not prove to them that Tarot works or I can read their mind (which I can't). :) All said though, I don't need the information in order to read for a person. But I sure do think it's nice. :) Thank you for the thought provoking question Zander.

Moongold	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear Yes, I feel that being gender-specific is of importance, particularly since I do 'live' readings 98% of the time. This is what lead me to the start of the second book-in-the-works with my collaborator (RT Kaser of 'Tarot in Ten Minutes'). Both of us feel that most Tarot books are written BY women FOR women, and that men are not addressed effectively or effeciently. Since most of my client base is gay males, the average tarot 'description' for a card just does not work. Don't you want to raise your readings above mere stereotype? Hello TarotBear, It is really great that you are doing this. Please let us know when you have finished the book. I was recently asked by a work colleague to do a reading for her and she's chosen as it is much more accessible to her through the imagery and Rachel Pollack's beautifully positive and sensitive interpretations. My colleague is a gay woman in her late 50's who is also a recovered addict, and a really wonderful woman. There are not too many people with her experiences out in the open. The traditional tarot did not appeal. I'm a gay woman myself but have lived adaptively (at some cost, mind you!) for many years. I learned Tarot with Rider Waite but found myself moving towards more estoreric decks like and Shining Tribe, I love the Faeries Oracle as well LOL. I am at an age, TarotBear, where it is increasingly more peaceful and easy to be open and to feel that I do not have to go on explaining things or having to look out for the avalanche of prejudice Actually the avalanches are easier to deal with than the snide behind the scenes stuff. Having said that, I think that identification is often a lot easier for women than for gay men for a whole range of reasons. Fortunately there is so much variety in Tarot these days that it is not hard to find a deck that appeals. My comments are a little peripheral but what the heck? Spontaneity rules. Thank you. Thank you. Moongold

Keslynn	06 Jan 2003
I think gender can help to make you feel closer to a querent. That's fine, but I don't think that gender should affect the way that you read the cards too much. For example, other than the biological ability to bear children, why should children have less of an effect on a man's reading? It shouldn't. Parenthood is a transformative experience for both father and mother. However, if a reader has some sort of prepackaged ideals that children don't belong in a man's reading, then the reading won't be as accurate a reflection of that man's life as it could be. That's just an example, but I could think of a few more harmful underlying assumptions that could affect a reading in a similar way. Also, I'm glad that Thirteen brought up transgendered people. What about the intersexed too? Those who read for clients or even just on Aeclectic could be called on to read for anyone. :) Kes

Alex	07 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric Nothing is more awkward than telling a client that they will meet the man of their dreams, and then find out at the end of the reading that the client is a lesbian

Alex	07 Jan 2003
If I don't know I just don't assume. Someone read for me a couple of years ago and she said to me I was going to get married soon. Oh well...I was alrady married...just not wearing the ring. Reason: I was about to get divorced soon! Alex. Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric Nothing is more awkward than telling a client that they will meet the man of their dreams, and then find out at the end of the reading that the client is a lesbian

Ophiel	07 Jan 2003
Perhaps a good card reader senses a sort of energy, or changes, but is fuzzy on the details and blurts out descriptions from his/her own frame of reference, missing the details that a person is gay, or sensing, as in Alex' case, that there was a change coming with marriage, but she got it backwards (maybe that reader didn't believe in card reversals, but should have! lol.) Of course, divorce and marriage cards are a little different, but perhaps the reader(s) missed another indicator, a modifying card or combo, like in astrology, a sun/jupiter trine, but missing the fact that saturn opposes the the sun and both are square uranus.

tarotbear	07 Jan 2003
Let me expound a little more... In my earlier post, I did say that I do mostly 'live' readings and mostly for a gay male clientelle. My experience is that when I am reading for gay men, I am usually in a gay venue, and know they are gay. It is in just such a venue that the heterosexuality of the cards SCREAMS at you, and you find out that you have to start reworking your concepts. When Queens pop up, most gay men laugh, and we have to discover if the mysterious Queen of Swords is their landlady or the snobby gay guy at the bookstore. Yes, this takes some time, but we all sit there, laughing at the play on the word 'Queen'. A straight tarot reader may not be able to get away with this. My book (working title 'Every Man's Tarot') is more aimed at men in general and I am being cautious about being 'too gay.' My collaborator thinks I'm not going far enough with it, but I think at this point I will wait until the book is fleshed out before I start trying to expound on things. This is a very touchy subject; I am sure there are posters out there saying to themselves "Oh - WHAT are you guys so uptight about? Just read the damn cards!" The answer comes down to one thing: validation.

Alissa	07 Jan 2003
I hadn't deeply considered these issues, and this is a great topic zander! Getting everyone's input is fascinating, b/c some adamentally have said "Nah, doesn't matter," and some have said, "Yes, I do indeed ask!" Reading most of the posts thus far, I would say I agree that knowing a querent's age, sex, and sexual preference would be very helpful. It would also be helpful to know where they're from, so you avoid using "Americanisms" while you read if they aren't from the USA (which I've done here on this very site in fact). It would also be helpful to know their attitude towards Tarot, if they are interested in obtaining information to assist them or if they're out to play "test the psychic." I'd also think it helpful to know : if they're married, divorced, have kids, and their general career. Allllll of that would be sooo nice to know. But, all too often, we don't. Sucks, but we all deal with that, to some extent. And I make mistakes because of it, but to a certain extent I think that many querents *expect* to have to fill in a few pieces of the puzzle themselves when having a reading done. We usually know a bit about our querent, perhaps the gender but not who they prefer to bed down with, or age but not whether they're parents themselves yet. Contextual errors occur while you read, due to the assumptions made. A Page of Cups rev. could mean you're feeling cut off from your kids (due to the custody arrangement), or it could mean you've lost touch with your own sense of creativity and youthfulness. If I knew my querent didn't have kids, I'd likely find myself "logically" following the later. BUT ... if I KNOW someone doesn't have kids, and I think it's about kids, I usually will say it anyhow ... sometimes they end up understanding (say they've been taking care of their nephews due to family problems) and they will nod, even though logically it would seem like a wrong interpretation, since I *knew* they didn't have kids. Assumptions on assumptions. (... holds her head a moment) Oh my, I've hurt myself.... Context is everything, but I still find that some of my best readings were those done in a "vaccuum" where I knew very little to nothing about the querent (this is especially true for me for the ones I've done here before). This question made me wonder if I should ask ahead and find out ages, or sex? I don't know that I would, though. I just don't. Perhaps on a case by case basis, if I suddenly felt it WAS necessary to know.

Khatruman	07 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear My book (working title 'Every Man's Tarot') is more aimed at men in general and I am being cautious about being 'too gay.' My collaborator thinks I'm not going far enough with it, but I think at this point I will wait until the book is fleshed out before I start trying to expound on things. This is wonderful, tarotbear. Indeed, I feel a bit in the minority on tarot being a male. I do find much tarot literature takes a female perspective, and I hope you still do keep to the male in general, not limit it to gay males. Peace!

Moongold	07 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman This is wonderful, tarotbear. Indeed, I feel a bit in the minority on tarot being a male. I do find much tarot literature takes a female perspective, and I hope you still do keep to the male in general, not limit it to gay males. Peace! Just to illustrate the point, Khatruman, untill I read this post I'd assumed that you were female!. Warm regards, Moongold

Moongold	07 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Just to illustrate the point, Khatruman, untill I read this post I'd assumed that you were female!. Warm regards, Moongold

The do gender specific's have make any difference when reading for a Q? thread was originally posted on 04 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.