Ethics and Certification

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Major Tom	06 Jan 2003
These topics have come up before. I have done some research in the archives and come up with these threads for reference purposes: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6071&perpage=10&highlight=ethics http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10300&highlight=ethics http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=600&highlight=ethics http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=633 It's my contention, for purposes of discussion, to connect the ideas of ethics and certification. You'll know if you read the references (or have one) that I used to send scalawag certificates to people who had more than 100 posts on the board. Then the board changed a bit and the practice stopped. In those days I was confident that anyone who'd reached 100 posts operated within their own code of ethics. These days I'm not so sure. :eek: I do have a personal code of practice clearly marked as ethics on my website. Most of it I developed through discussions here. It's my considered opinion that tarot associations that produce certifications usually do so for the wrong reasons - either to gain promenence/superiority or other similar selfish ends. Maybe the right reason is to promote ethics. }) Now I suppose what I'm really talking about is a personal code of conduct...but that sounds so, well, personal. Could there ever be a statement of ethics that could be agreed by such an Aeclectic group of people?

Trish	06 Jan 2003
well ... I do have my own set of rules and ethics when it comes to Tarot as well. I checked a few of the threads and I think they are fairly similar to everybody else's. * I only read for myself, my family, and VERY close friends. * I do not do readings about vital issues for anybody but myself. (i.e., anything that could get me in trouble if a querent does what they think the cards are telling them to do) * I do not do readings in public, or for cash. (That is a personal choice; I'm not saying everybody who reads for cash is unethical. And besides, I only read for those who are closest to me, anyway.) * I am willing to talk about Tarot, and explain what my take on it is to anyone who is truly interested, so long as they do not preach to me about what a so-called Satanist I am, or hound me to read their cards. I dunno if absolutely everybody's ethics match mine, but this is what I personally do. Could we go from there?

fairyhedgehog	06 Jan 2003
An agreed code of ethics might be tricky. I think we might all agree on generalities like 'do no harm' and 'do as you would be done by' but how that would work in practice is a different issue. My suggested ethics would include: Be clear what you are offering and any fees that you are asking. (No small print :) ) Don't promise anything you can't deliver. Do your best for every querent; if you can't do your best for this querent, don't agree to read for them. I'm not sure that there aren't holes in those suggestions though :)

lupo138	06 Jan 2003
well, hm - being a lawyer I am somehow pessimistic that there would ever be something like "the perfect code of ethis". I would rather stay happy with rules like "as long as it harms nobody, do what you will." Anyway I was interested in your views and would like to add mine to this: These are the ethical standards by which I read the tarot: 1. I don’t accept orders from anyone under the age of 18. Why ? 14 will be a bit young, but 17 ? My sister started reading the cards with 17, if I remember that correctly. Why shouldn´t she have been entitled to ask for a reading ? I could live with 14, or 16 although I regard the latter a bit unfair. 18 is too high. 2. All readings are entirely confidential - in other words they will not in any form be disclosed to any third party. yup, of course they are - for the reader, but not the querent. 3. I am completely honest about what the cards show me. I will tell you exactly what the cards indicate - after all, that’s what a client pays me for - to tell them what the cards say. mpf. Always ? Would you predict a terible situation without a possible escape, too ? I´d rather say "there are some difficulties ahead, but you know, nothing is for eternity..." 4. I do not give financial, legal, medical or any other advice that I’m not professionaly qualified to give. I would give advice in addition (not instead of) professional advice in legal and medical matters. I would give advice in personal financial affairs as well, but I would not try to foresee the development of the Dow Jones or anything like that. The reasons are not ethical - I simply would see it as being boring. Very boring. 5. I will answer any questions a client has about a reading without any further fee. Any clarification - even if it includes another reading is part of the same reading. I invite clients to enter a dialog concerning their readings. If I do it for money (what I do very seldom) I would limit it to one hour. There are always people that would discuss their entire life including all 20000 incarnations before if you have no rule like that. 6. Tarot cards do not predict the future - but they can and frequently do predict the future a person is on the path toward. There are many possible futures - it is up to the individual to decide which future they want. Tarot provides the information we need to decide upon the outcomes we desire. Yap. (Although it is scary how accurate the cards can be...) 7. I will provide a client with my opinion and advice on any possible course of action, as long as it doesn’t conflict with rule #4, but I cannot make my client’s decisions for them. Clients are solely responsible for any decision they make or any course of action they take. Advice from anywhere that goes against your inner feelings should be met with scepticism. This is a wise statement and I like it very much - although I disagree with the reference to rule 4 :) I hope you do not feel unhappy with the quotation, but I think my "codex" would seem insufficient to you.

fairyhedgehog	06 Jan 2003
lupo, I'm confused. Which post are you replying to?

lupo138	06 Jan 2003
I pasted the statement sbout ethic from Majjor Tom´s website ( http://www.majortom.biz/ ) as he started the thread and referred to it. Is that ok ?

Mojo	06 Jan 2003
Mojo's Tarot Ethics for a New Morality [list=1] [*]Do no harm, unless there just isn't any other option. [*]I will always keep your reading in the utmost of confidence, unless you're just so unbelievably stupid that I can't possibly pass up the opportunity to tell everyone I know about you. [*]Never read Tarot cards in the bathtub. [*]If all you're looking for is good news, that's going to cost extra. [*]The 3 of Swords can be a happy card if I damn well say it is. [*]Yes, you can shuffle my cards, but if you bend them, I bend your face, ok? [*]It's called the HANGED man. The hung man is a completely different story. [*]Tarot is an art and not a science. Cubism is also an art, however, most Tarot readers don't have both eyes on the same side of their nose. [*]For the next person who asks me if the death card really means death, it really will. [*]I am not psychic. If you insist on testing my abilities by making me guess your question or by refusing to give me feedback, it won't hurt my feeling that you walk away thinking that you didn't get your money's worth. In fact, I'm going to take the fifty bucks you just wasted and I'm going to go buy something totally useless and decadent with it. [*]Anyone who follows my Tarot advice is a fool. [*]Anyone who doesn't follow my Tarot advice is a fool. [*]Being a fool isn't such a bad thing. If it weren't for fools, there would be no politicians. Or any need for them. [*]Never do Tarot readings in the nude. It's very distracting for the querents and you really don't want any paper cuts down there. On the other hand, naked querents are welcome, especially if I think they're really hot, in which case, the reading is free and we introduce the concept of the laying on of hands. [*]I will be happy to diagnose any medical problem you have as long as you are willing to pay me the same amount you would pay your doctor, and no, I don't bill insurance. [*]I am also happy to dispense legal advice. Just know that if I am ever called to defend myself in court, my testimony will start off with the words, "what kind of freaking idiot does anything a Tarot reader tells them to do?" [*]Hey, don't blame me because the Queen of Wands is a total slutty b*tch; Try crossing your legs next time. [*]You want financial advice? Next time you have an extra hundred bucks, put it in the bank. That's what I do with it when you give it to me. [*]Yes, the Page of Cups is really charming and loveable, but he also picks his nose and wipes it on the upholstery when you're not looking. I'll just wait for the Knight to come along, ok? [*]Of course this is real. I guarantee it. If what I said doesn't come true in the next 60 years, come back and I'll give you your money back. [/list=1]

WolfSpirit	06 Jan 2003
:D Mojo if you are that funny when doing readings you are worth every cent you charge ! Aren't we lucky to be on AT and have it for free. Especially that death card bit })

Demonesse	06 Jan 2003
LOL @ Mojo!!! This should be put up as an article. Especially this: "Yes, you can shuffle my cards, but if you bend them, I bend your face, ok?"

tarotbear	06 Jan 2003
This should be laminated on a placard and posted at the entrance to all psychic faires!

DarkElectric	06 Jan 2003
MoJo... There is NO WAY anyone can follow an act like that! Touche!

jmd	06 Jan 2003
I have already posted (in one of the links given by Major Tom) that I personally do not like either the term 'code of ethics', nor the implications that ethical considerations can even be codified. In each situation at hand, it seems to me that the appropriate (and moral) response will be made according to the insight, understanding, wisdom, and 'guidance' given (in the forms of imagination, inspiration and intuition). As I mentioned in that earlier post, I do have some 'underlying' guidelines which, however, are reflections from actual practice, and not 'rules' for the future. These are: I tend to only read for adults, even if about their child (rather than reading directly for the child in question); and Even if charging (which I haven't done for a few years), I will tend to only read if I am comfortable - and refund or not charge if this isn't the case. When reading, I strive to be: truthful; but also sensitive to the state of the person for whom the reading is, and sensitive to the consequences of the person having placed their trust in my 'advice'; and will be responsible. These are not codifications of ethical considerations, but reflections on how I strive to address situations.

Major Tom	07 Jan 2003
Lupo138, Thank you for your observations - very helpful. Please understand these are under constant evolution. :) Mojo - Brilliant! Jmd - Thank you for the word reflections. I do like that much better than the word code. :) I hope we can convince other contributors to the previous threads to share their thoughts as well. })

Musie	07 Jan 2003
Bravo Mojo! That was the funniest thing I ever read! Thank you for the chuckle :D

fairyhedgehog	07 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by lupo138 I pasted the statement sbout ethic from Majjor Tom´s website ( http://www.majortom.biz/ ) as he started the thread and referred to it. Is that ok ? Oh, right :) I just hadn't realised where you were getting those quotes from :)

brennamor	07 Jan 2003
Okay, that's it - I'm adopting Mojo's Tarot Ethics. They're so much more interesting than my own ;D But seriously - I don't think anyone can create a standard "code of ethics" that all Tarot readers will agree to follow. Too many differing opinions as to what constitues "ethical". Even the concept of "harming none" can become loaded. However I do think that an organization such as ATA (American Tarot Association) or TABI (Tarot Association of the British Isles) can create an organizational Code of Ethics that all members must agree to follow. If a person disagrees with the Code then they have the option not to join. As for certification - the few groups in the US that are working towards creating a certification process all seem to have a Code of Ethics that anyone seeking certification must agree to follow. I can respect that. And if I disagree with their Code then I don't need to seek their certification. Simple enough. Based on what some folks have already posted we obviously have some differences regarding what we consider "ethical" behavior for a Tarot reader.

Silverlotus	07 Jan 2003
I haven't actually sat down and thought about what sort of ethics I follow when reading Tarot. To be honest, lately I've only been reading for myself. But when I have read for others, I don't think I had any specific code of ethics in mind. I just followed the same morals and ethics I do everyday. I do my best to be a good person, follow the Rede, and not give advice about things I don't know about. I read for younger people, but that is because I was young myself when I started reading Tarot. I never talked about readings with others, but I don't tell secrets or gossip either. Why do we need special code of ethics? Isn't our everyday behaviour good enough?

Karenwhe	07 Jan 2003
While reading this something came to my mind....... It seems that in the Codes of Ethics I smell a lot of "disclaimer" type of phrasing... I may be wrong... But right of wrong, this did bring a question to my mind: "do readers need a disclaimer?" especially those who read for money or as a vocation so to speak. Maybe Lupo123 has an opinion on the disclaimer issue.... And how does it all tie in.... the Ethics with the Disclaimer or does it have to tie in at all? Sorry I can't add any codes of ethics but these are the questions that came to mind when reading everything. On a side note: Mojo...... that was really FUNNY.

lupo138	08 Jan 2003
Lupo 123´s ;) view: A disclaimer is, according to my vies, a legal tool that minimizes one´s liability. A code of ethics is the system that you would derive your personal liability from. So the one diminishes, the other one creates liability. As these principles don´t go together,they should be kept separated. Anyway: Giving information about what you do is not a disclaimer as such. It can as well be information about your way of doing things and thus the costumer is enabled to countercheck if his views are in accordance with the reader´s views - and that could proof quite helpful.

anjocoxo	08 Jan 2003
I think I'll start following mojo's code.... Anyway, I would never cards for someone who is mentally, psychologically disturbed.... and I try to show people that YOU CAN CHANGE EVERYTHING I SAID, AS LONG AS YOU WANT IT.... I'm just giving advises, and that's it. I also hate giving readings to people who have that "I don't believe this, I'm only here b/c my boy/girlfriend made me come, and nothing you can say will change my mind" look on their faces. I guess that's my ethic code Anjo :)

allibee	08 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by anjocoxo Anyway, I would never cards for someone who is mentally, psychologically disturbed.... trouble is, unless they arrive in a straight jacket with little men in white coats, you really don't know. A schizophrenic may arrive with their normal persona and leave with Edd, Ed and Eddy in tow. Clinical depression is a mental illness that afflicts huge numbers in society, but how could you tell? I am enjoying this thread on the ethics of ethics, LOL, and look forward to hearing more views. Thank you Major Tom for bringing this up. allibee

allibee	08 Jan 2003
I was wondering Major Tom, whether this thread was a preface to an Aeclectic ethics and certification programme? Most tarot people on the web know of Aeclectic, and it doesn't take long to realise it is 'the' tarot site on the web, growing bigger and stronger by the day with a truly international membership. To be either the follower of an ethics 'code' laid out and agreed by Aecleticians or the possessor of a 'qualified' reader at Aeclectic certificate would serve two fold. One obviously to show the surfer that you are part of something huge and non political and two, would also be a further advert for all the good work done at Aeclectic. Perhaps instead of paying for certification as in some societies, one's readings could be assessed by a panel of elders, or elder elders, LOL, and then potential sitters would be able to see that it is an honour to receive such a certificate, and not a reward for monies paid. What do you think? what does Aeclectic think? What does Solandia think? allibee

Major Tom	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee I was wondering Major Tom, whether this thread was a preface to an Aeclectic ethics and certification programme? An interesting idea Allibee, but no, this was not my purpose. Mostly, I'm trying to refine my own reflections. :) Quote: Originally posted by allibee Perhaps instead of paying for certification as in some societies, one's readings could be assessed by a panel of elders, or elder elders, LOL, and then potential sitters would be able to see that it is an honour to receive such a certificate, and not a reward for monies paid. Again, an interesting idea, but I (and I suspect others) have a lot of trouble with the idea of assessment. By what standards would candidates be assessed? I beginning to think ethical reflections are more a matter of attitude on the part of the individual. Perhaps it's simply a matter of a desire to help clients... Which reminds me of a Samuel Clements quote, "If I knew for certain that someone was coming to see me specifically to do me some good - I'd run a mile to get away". })

allibee	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom Which reminds me of a Samuel Clements quote, "If I knew for certain that someone was coming to see me specifically to do me some good - I'd run a mile to get away". }) ROFL, heheheheh I have had a few requests since my post to make a seperate thread of an Aeclectic based certification and ethics discussion to thrash out its viability and reception .... what do you think Major Tom? Maybe a poll too? allibee

Mojo	09 Jan 2003
And how would an Aeclectic certification differ from any of the others? It would still be subjective, judgmental, artificia and exclusionaryl, there's no getting around that.

Diana	09 Jan 2003
I can't tell you my opinion on certification. It would go against the forum guidelines. (Shivers down my spine.) Mojo said what I would have said, more or less. Only he was very polite about it, which I don't think I'll be able to be.

allibee	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo And how would an Aeclectic certification differ from any of the others? It would still be subjective, judgmental, artificia and exclusionaryl, there's no getting around that. It may be all those things Mojo or none of those things, but if it was FREE, on the basis of 'professional recognition' - insert any other appropriate word or phrase - made by the community, not a treasury, therefore not on the basis of financial recognition, that would make a difference. If it was based on multinational tarot ideals - such as Aeclectic stands for - that would make a difference. This is exactly the things that need thrashing out. allibee

Karenwhe	09 Jan 2003
Though I tend to agree about certification with Mojo and Diana, I also have to look at it from another perspective and try to be objective about this ...... When it comes to deal with clients in a practice of any kind the certification is sometimes for the client not for the reader / practitioner. When you are certified for something that you are practicing, clients may hold a higher respect for the practitioner. I don't think that it should be this way, but in any case we can't just yet change the worlds perceptions about certifications and what makes one a good practitioner and another bad. Clients like to see certifications, and even if they did not come because you are certified the certification will still add value in their eyes. Because this is the way majority of the world has been indoctrinated. I recall someone telling about Harvard degrees securing better jobs....... I also remember replying that I don't believe that they secure better jobs........... but when you are speaking of a private practice (not being employed by someone) and clients walk through the door each day, regardless if the know you are certified or not..............they see the certification......... they speak to friends........... and they say how nice and helpful the reading was........but they also add: "you know.... this person is certified". It doesn't matter that you knowledge has nothing to do with your certification but if it helps getting more clients because this is the way humans think at the moment - then so be it. On the other hand - if one does not intend to read for clients then I go with Mojo and Diana’s points of view - a big waste of time, “shivers down my spine”.......and I also don't think I need anyone to tell me how well I can do by giving me a piece of paper that will eventually end up in the trash can. Now to allibees ideas: I think that they are brilliant.

jmd	09 Jan 2003
One of the great difference there is between a degree from any institution and the kind of certification being discussed is that the former assesses both knowledge and aptitude in an area. Psychological counselling can be certified, astrological chart erection can be too, historical knowledge (including about Tarot) can also be certified... but readings depend far more on the person and the moment at hand. Some are quite gifted, others less. Some of us base our readings more on years of having worked with the cards and understanding them, others on a very intuitive process which at times belies their actual ignorance of the Tarot symbolism. I agree with Diana - and am trying to be polite about my views. If society at large can be fooled by certification, then, maybe, for something we value as much as the Tarot, we should strive to ensure that no such thing exists (this is, by the way, one of the reasons I will not be a member of the Tarot Guild - to which I do not mind either attending or speaking). 'Codes of Ethics' likewise take away the very important responsibility of striving to enter what is appropriate and morally right in the instance at hand - to be determined not by some pre-arranged rules of conduct which can themselves only arise from reflections on what has been deemed to be right: if one can make those judgements, then one can make them at each stage - albeit with some difficulties in certain cases (for which a 'code' would not, in any case, help). Ethical considerations are essential in any reading - without the need for codification; certification is a temptation for structures which veil rather than enlighten.

Karenwhe	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd I agree with Diana - and am trying to be polite about my views. If society at large can be fooled by certification, then, maybe, for something we value as much as the Tarot, we should strive to ensure that no such thing exists (this is, by the way, one of the reasons I will not be a member of the Tarot Guild - to which I do not mind either attending or speaking). I totally agree with this. But how exactly are we going to do this when everything around is going towards "certifications" and those same organization that certify also sponsor and contribute to communities in their area of expertise - I don't know. For readers that make a living of this vocation, I don't know how they can avoid doing this. Sooner or later they will start loosing out clients to those with the most "certifications" when the market is going to be saturated (it always happens like this in any profession / vocation). I agree, but I also feel that there is a "catch 22" situation which will bring a lot of people to the point where they will certify. As they say "if you can't beat them - join them". How will we beat them if at all, is another question. Any organization that certifies anything at all, is there because there is a "need", the need to show a certification as means of creating an illusion that you are the one to be chosen to get the job done or to be honored to have clients. I don’t think that this is right at all, I personally hate certifications all together (but that is another story), but I truly don’t know how we or anyone can avoid this when there is a need for the “fools” to get the illusion that a certification is what makes you a professional or a good reader ??????

jmd	09 Jan 2003
Those are certainly worthy and difficult considerations you bring, Karenwhe. I suppose that at the moment, there are only three organisations which dispense such certifications: the Canadian Tarot Network, the former ATA and its certification successor in the USA, and the Tarot Guild in Australia (through its 'professional' membership category). I am under the impression that the TABI in the UK, and the International Tarot Society (ITS) have, as far as I'm aware, very wisely avoided such fiasco. I suppose that, on the one hand, not joining those societies or organisations which hand out certification is one avenue. The other is to actually join those who do not (eg, the ITS and, of course, Aeclectic). The third is to write or contact the relevant local organisation and ask them why they even want such - of course, those who will respond are likely to have the highest possible membership, and are unlikely to want to give that up, often sincerely believing such actually provides a service to both the Tarot and broader community. Another way is to advertise one's services in exactly the same fashion as members of these various organisations do. eg: not affiliated with name of local organisation At least this way, people can see that not all professionals agree on membership and certification merits :).

Umbrae	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo And how would an Aeclectic certification differ from any of the others? It would still be subjective, judgmental, artificial and exclusionary, there's no getting around that. Dang I had a thought…We could write a test (I used to do that professionally), charge folks a ton of money, Mojo and I could grade it to guarantee that it was subjective, judgmental, artificial and exclusionary, then Major Tom could provide the certification… We could make some serious bucks! Then of course we’d have to fail 60% of all test takers just on principal so they would have to pay another test fee… I’m thinking of the car I want… :smoker:

jmd	09 Jan 2003
Here are examples I find actually dangerous to proper development and freedom, with presumptious self-agrandisement. I also resognise that each group has other aspects which I find highly valuable, and most members I have met of these various organisations I personally find diligent and seemingly having a sense of personal integrity. Still, the best of motives can sometimes be down-trodden by what I consider ill-founded assumptions - as in the case of certifications and 'codes' of ethics. I have obviously only selected parts from these three organisations' respective sites. From the Canadian Tarot Network: Quote: The mission of the Canadian Tarot Network Certification Committee is to establish and promote quality standards for professional tarot readers in Canada and to increase public awareness of these standards. From the Tarot Guild of Australia: Quote: To promote a Code of Ethics and Practice for Tarot professionals and practitioners. To recognise, through admission to the professional member category, those members that demonstrate a high level of understanding, competence and professional conduct, and who have pledged to uphold the Code of Ethics and Practice. and from the Tarot Certification Board of America: Quote: There are practical and personal reasons why you might consider certification by the Board: There is great personal satisfaction in having proven your knowledge and skill. There is an incentive and a standard for continuing professional improvement. Establishing credentials as a legitimate practitioner earns recognition and respect. Certification makes employment as a professional reader much easier and can be very helpful in establishing a private practice. Belonging to a professional community provides an environment of continuous learning and personal growth. Do any of these truly reflect Tarot in healthy ways? Each will have their own answer, but mine is clearly: No!!!

jmd	09 Jan 2003
... I've reconsidered after reading Umbrae's wise post... ...let's go ahead ;)

zorya	09 Jan 2003
}) oo! oo! ... and then could we have different degrees of supposed proficiency? that way we could charge more for each level and keep 'em paying! ...and as a plus, those certified no longer would have to think for themselves. we'll tell them what is right and wrong! :joke: ... and while we're at it, we should make them memorize the meanings we choose for each card. that ought to prove they can read the tarot! :laugh: ....and if they try to use their own meanings... ha! no certificate for you! :D

Mojo	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe For readers that make a living of this vocation, I don't know how they can avoid doing this. Sooner or later they will start loosing out clients to those with the most "certifications" when the market is going to be saturated (it always happens like this in any profession / vocation). I absolutely disagree. People don't go to a Tarot reader because of certificates. They go for the guilty pleasure, the mystery, the magic, and the mystique. A good reader will provide all of these, and these are not things that anyone can measure through any kind of certification process. I have never had a single client even so much as ask me about certifications. They don't care. They get their money's worth from me, so they keep coming back for more. It's as simple as that. The whole concept of certification for tarot is just so outrageously silly when you consider the roots of the art.

Karenwhe	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by zorya }) oo! oo! ... and then could we have different degrees of supposed proficiency? that way we could charge more for each level and keep 'em paying! Oh yeah............. you must be kidding zorya I actually saw a web site that was teaching a "Tarot Degree" I thought it was to stupid that I didn't of course bookmark the site... but them maybe I should have so that you all can have a good laugh. Quote: Originally posted by zorya }...and as a plus, those certified no longer would have to think for themselves. we'll tell them what is right and wrong! :joke: ... and while we're at it, we should make them memorize the meanings we choose for each card. that ought to prove they can read the tarot! :laugh: ....and if they try to use their own meanings... ha! no certificate for you! :D True, good idea, lets pull a Microsoft also: after they pay for the studies and for the course material and for the tests (100 bucks a pop x 6 = $600), and then charge them for the annual fee to keep the certification valid............... but wait, I haven't finished....... after a year or so lets change the version of certification and say that all the knowledge is out of date and then do a new course all together.......... and all those fees can be paid again..........you know how many millions you can make from that........check out Microsoft’s income just from certifications to get a vague idea. Point is....... this is exactly what happened with my MSCE and my MCT and so on so...... now you know why I HATE certifications. But when they become standard WHAT DO YOU DO? You either join them or forget about jobs........... and when a certain standard is set and is known widely enough this becomes – A FACT OF LIFE. This example is totally not about tarot but it is about real life and in real life organizations gain (in time – just wait and see) POWER and with this power they set standards (that suit them).......... IT IS WRONG............ but how do you beat them........... ?????????????? I am sorry but I haven’t figured out the formula………

Karenwhe	10 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo I absolutely disagree. People don't go to a Tarot reader because of certificates. They go for the guilty pleasure, the mystery, the magic, and the mystique. A good reader will provide all of these, and these are not things that anyone can measure through any kind of certification process. I have never had a single client even so much as ask me about certifications. They don't care. They get their money's worth from me, so they keep coming back for more. It's as simple as that. The whole concept of certification for tarot is just so outrageously silly when you consider the roots of the art. You are absolutely right - for now. Look at how many people are learning tarot just on this web site....... wait until the market is going to be full of tarot readers, wait until the “Organizations” will do their job in infiltrating (these organizations are still babies, sorry no…. they are embryos) into the market............ let us discuss this issue again in a couple of years. I go about my life thinking that if I want to make a living (of any profession not particularly tarot) I better have a strategy (just like those organizations) otherwise I may wake up one day and find myself without a career, many have found this in the last down turn (which is not up yet), I don’t see what law excludes Tarot readers from this (after all organizations have already popped up and more will come soon and then they will grow like mushrooms). The ones that started early (the visionaries) will gain by then go much power that they will set the standard.

zorya	10 Jan 2003
karen, i got my idea's/jokes from actual certification programs i've come across on the web. i've often been accused of being a dreamer and of being unrealistic. perhaps i am foolish to hold on to my ideals....but i still believe that if you know something is wrong, you don't join in, just because you, personally, will benefit. you ask, what then should we do? i think jmd has the right idea. Quote: Originally posted by jmd Another way is to advertise one's services in exactly the same fashion as members of these various organisations do. eg: not affiliated with name of local organisation At least this way, people can see that not all professionals agree on membership and certification merits :). hmmm. perhaps i shall add a line to my web site.... something on the line of "not certified by any organization and proud of it!"

Diana	10 Jan 2003
I would rather go and sweep the leaves in the local park than get some stupid certification. Warning to Mojo and Umbrae and jmd and Major Tom: if you do your own certification thing and don't include me somewhere in your plans, well then I'll also get rich on this. I'll take out a lawsuit and prove you guys to be a fraud, and I'll make some big bucks too. (Blackmail? Call it what you will.) Anyway, I have a certificate. I'm an official Scalawag Tarologue from the Kiama University, and it's already been issued by Major Tom. It's the only certificate that I'll ever put up on my wall. If you can't beat them, join them? No way. That's one of the numerous reasons the world is in the state it is today. I'll form an underground Resistance movement if necessary. The members will have secret codes and secret meeting places and we will not crack even under torture (like if we are deprived of our Tarot decks and Aeclectic for months and months). Ethics I like. But everyone has their own ethics according to their background and culture.

allibee	10 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee ..... but if it was FREE, on the basis of 'professional recognition' - insert any other appropriate word or phrase - made by the community, not a treasury, therefore not on the basis of financial recognition, that would make a difference. Isn't it funny how when you mention something being free, people come out the woodwork trying to make money out of it!!!Yes, you know who you all are, heheh But seriously, I agree with Karenwhe in that it's pretty damn hard to shut the proverbial barn door after the horse has bolted as it were. jmd's idea of a proclaimation against affiliation is really good in this context, but how many of you are willing to stand up and be counted? What good is just one or two people's proclaimation against whole societies? Are you all as willing to publically flame affiliations - by way of non affiliation text - on your pages and other discussion groups as you are in Aeclectic where it's 'safe'? In short, are you willing to make a difference, or are you just happy to make noises? allibee

firemaiden	10 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I would rather go and sweep the leaves in the local park than get some stupid certification. Diana I love it, you're funny when you're mad!

Karenwhe	10 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Diana I love it, you're funny when you're mad! Does that mean that if we make Diana more mad she will just get funnier........... :) :) :) ROFL

Karenwhe	10 Jan 2003
Now on a serious note: No one will risk their livelihood to go against the main stream, particularly when you are talking about something that is totally harmless to anyone (it is not like you were asked to follow Hitler or something like that). Take for example Microsoft everyone (including me) love to bi*ch about Microsoft and the money they charge and the monopoly etc, etc, etc., ............... but you know what???? – majority of people don’t even consider using something else...... and that proves my point. Yes, you could use Linux (it is installed on one of my home PCs) and you know what - everything in Linux if free, all the software everything, and you know what else?? there are more programs that are created by open source projects for Linux that you will ever be able to afford buying for windows. So, why do you all use Windows when it costs so much and Microsoft is jus the big bad bully in the neighborhood, after all there is an alternative???? Again it is not about Tarot, but it is a real example how people follow standards after they have been set, even when it doesn’t have to do with you livelihood, just saves you loads of money…….

Keslynn	10 Jan 2003
I use a Mac. It doesn't cost a lot more and I think they're better quality. Am I a rebel? Just being playful. :) Kes

Diana	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe Now on a serious note: No one will risk their livelihood to go against the main stream, particularly when you are talking about something that is totally harmless to anyone (it is not like you were asked to follow Hitler or something like that). I'm glad I made some of you smile, by the way. "No-one will risk their livelihod to go against the main stream?" Speak for yourself. "Certification is totally harmless?" Freedom cannot be measured. So-called "little" freedoms are as important as the so-called "big" ones. Erosion starts with little things. Erosion of freedom and human rights starts with the removal of so-called "harmless" things. And then you land up one day in one terrible mess. I would certainly risk my livelihood if I felt that not only my freedom was being taken away, but those of the generations that will follow me. I have a duty to the world's children to make sure that they will live in a world that is not prejudiciable to them. If certification becomes the norm, Tarot standards will be LOWERED, and not the opposite. Because Tarot will become institutionalised, and therefore will start being controlled by people who are interested in power, and money. Lobbies will be formed, and different Certification associations will fight each other - each one wanting to be recognised as the best certification association. Tarot will be led by committees, and soon churches and politicans will get involved. Certain books will be required reading (like if one doesn't accept 78 Degrees of Wisdom as the gospel truth, we will not be certified), and meanings will be narrowed down to those accepted by the Chairman and his lackies. *Diana thinks of all the expletives she can think of in English, French, German and Swiss German and adds the word "Certification" next to them*.

Karenwhe	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana "No-one will risk their livelihod to go against the main stream?" Speak for yourself. I speak for my self and I believe other hundreds of thousands or even millions across the globe who get certified over and over again to keep their careers going, updated and be able to provide a decent living for their families. And in many societies women don’t work so it makes it even more important to keep up to date and be on top of things before it is too late. I don’t know about you but I have 3 children and I do not intend to make them victims of my own ideologies, when I gave birth to them my first responsibility became to them because they can’t provide for themselves. In Romania, Turkey, Africa, Philippines, Latin America and many other countries engineers leave their families behind to go work for construction companies in building (hard labor) to provide for their families basic needs. Even though they are certified for other things, when it comes to livelihood people do what it takes, that is a fact of life. I speak at least for the 3,400 workers that I knew of when I used to work for a company that was importing foreign labor for the construction industry, agriculture and textile. That was 10 years ago, from then till today the trend has grown. Quote: Originally posted by Diana "Certification is totally harmless?" Freedom cannot be measured. So-called "little" freedoms are as important as the so-called "big" ones. Now speaking for myself only - I believe that freedom is something internal (big or small). For me freedom has nothing to do with the “outer noise”. I am a very free soul, I go where I want I do what I want, I harm no one and none has ever harmed me. I lived in some of the most violent places in the world - that never stopped me from feeling very free and also did not take away my personal and inner freedom. But most of all I don’t think that I will ever tie my freedom to any ideology because I will be too often visited by the Devil card in my readings, and though I like to have a conversation with the poor fellow once in a while, I certainly don’t like him visiting me too frequently. Quote: Originally posted by Diana Erosion starts with little things. Erosion of freedom and human rights starts with the removal of so-called "harmless" things. And then you land up one day in one terrible mess. Erosion I believe stands to debate in many cases because something that one sees as erosion another will see as evolution, so it is a matter of perspective. The Organizations see the their work in the Tarot world as evolution from being in the “closet” evolving to something that is public and FREE for all – they also promote this specific little freedom in many ways. You on the other hand see that as erosion. Both can be quite right from where they are standing and therefore there is no Right or Wrong here from my opinion on this particular issue. The issue of certification on the other hand can be further debated on the same manner. Meaning in the manner that one must except that there are two sides to the story. Quote: Originally posted by Diana I would certainly risk my livelihood if I felt that not only my freedom was being taken away, but those of the generations that will follow me. I have a duty to the world's children to make sure that they will live in a world that is not prejudiciable to them. Wait a second here, am I not sensing that you are by default prejudice to certifications via means of an opposing ideology and therefore deliver to the world’s children your prejudice? Prejudice comes in different forms and shapes. From my opinion anything that is “preached” as right or wrong for that matter as a given fact comes from some sort of indoctrination or the other (depending on what side of the track you are on). On the other hand me as an individual I have the responsibility and owe myself to find my own “truth” and if for me it is right to get certified then it should also be my right and I should have the freedom to do so. I think that a Balance should be found. Quote: Originally posted by Diana If certification becomes the norm, Tarot standards will be LOWERED, and not the opposite. Because Tarot will become institutionalised, and therefore will start being controlled by people who are interested in power, and money. Lobbies will be formed, and different Certification associations will fight each other - each one wanting to be recognised as the best certification association. Tarot will be led by committees, and soon churches and politicans will get involved. Certain books will be required reading (like if one doesn't accept 78 Degrees of Wisdom as the gospel truth, we will not be certified), and meanings will be narrowed down to those accepted by the Chairman and his lackies. *Diana thinks of all the expletives she can think of in English, French, German and Swiss German and adds the word "Certification" next to them*. I agreed with the fact that certification for tarot is an issue and for that matter for any esoterical, metaphysical, deviation, magic kind of stuff. So, coming to say it is a no, no, I don’t think it is the way. On the other hand maybe coming with balanced solutions to work with the organizations to create something that is acceptable to those opposing, may be a better way than just saying no. Standing by the sidelines and seeing these organizations grow and do their thing and probably LOWER the standards is also a solution but not necessarily a productive one. But if one is to influence the progress of evolution in a positive manner one also has to accept that there is another side to the coin (always). And finding the middle ground may just be the solution. What could be the middle ground I don’t know, because I am not a professional reader I also do not charge for reading etc, etc. But those who are and also know the organizations, should maybe voice their opinions and try to work with them to create something for the good of a larger majority or find the middle ground before it is too late.

allibee	11 Jan 2003
This is why I keep avoiding the word 'certification' in the hope that someone will come up with another that described my phrase 'professional recognition' for what it is. No money, no exam - exclusive, subjective or otherwise. And I'll verbally abuse anyone who comes up with the notion of 'award';) like 'Not the grammy's or the oscar's - but the tarotees', because that's not what I'm getting at! allibee

jmd	11 Jan 2003
This is the third thread linked in the first post by Major Tom, which I think is again worth re-reading: 'Tarot Certification Boards - Are the standards valid?'. Bear in mind that it was written before changing over the Forum to vBulletin, and that the old commands would now be [list] ones - with some changes to appearance. In terms of mentioning one's status publicly, I have no hesitation. I usually mention the existence of the Tarot Guild (with whom I am on good terms), as I also do the reasons I would not join (it is worth noting that some of my own former students have been committee members). Still, I do not see any problems stating clearly that one does not hold a certificate which one deems, at any rate, as being without consequence. A professional who wants to 'safe-guard' Tarot may do so without the need to corporatise it (which certification does - and by the way, I do not think it is in the nature of corporate bodies to fight against each other, but to co-operate to attain maximal coverage). This corporatising of Tarot is what I see developing if certification and the codification of ethical behaviour becomes accepted by Tarot professionals who neither need it nor stand to gain by it !!! Unlike a specific product for which a particular certification programme may 'legitimately' be charged (such as MS-whatever or the Medusa psycho-drama Tarot for quasi-clear engramless NerSd), Tarot is not solely the province of those who wish to see its uses limited to its views.

allibee	11 Jan 2003
jmd, as you know I'm quite thick so I don't always understand all you or others say although I try - my parents have often stated just how very trying I am;) - but I would like to add a side note to this discussion. On the Spirituality board it has recently been asked how much a Reiki level 1 costs, and people have been giving their reflections based on their experiences. It also came about just how much a master's degree can cost - about the equivelent of a years wages - sheesh .... and what do you get at the end of the day? A certificate. Some of the folks who are totally against tarot certification seem to have no problem with other certifications. So please forgive me if I don't understand :confused: it just seems like double standards. allibee

wavebreaker	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee On the Spirituality board it has recently been asked how much a Reiki level 1 costs, and people have been giving their reflections based on their experiences. It also came about just how much a master's degree can cost - about the equivelent of a years wages - sheesh .... and what do you get at the end of the day? A certificate. Allibee: if you think that "all you get at the end of the day" after completing a reiki course is a certificate, you obviously haven't got a clue about what reiki really is... Besides, if you would have read that particular thread properly, you would have seen that most people in that thread do not agree with the high prices charged by the Alliance. That's what the whole discussion was about!! Sorry for being off topic, but I really don't like it when people start dragging in completely unrelated discussions and twisting other people's words just to make a point for themselves...

allibee	11 Jan 2003
Tarotlady: I HAVE read the thread properly and I have twisted NOTHING. My post you quote merely states the gist of the thread. And I welcome any and all to go and have a look. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10565 My whole point is that Reiki graduates get a certificate to plonk on their wall. Am I wrong in thinking that all/most/any of them will tear the certificate up/throw it away/keep it hidden in a drawer? But if you feel the need to be defensive then that is your perogative of course. It would be a very boring forum if we all agreed. Quote: originally posted by tarotlady Sorry for being off topic, but I really don't like it when people start dragging in completely unrelated discussions and twisting other people's words just to make a point for themselves... I have also seen your post in the 'tarot readers do it....' thread in which you take this (unrelated) thread and twist it to make a point. Quote: originally posted by tarotlady Tarot readers do it uncertified...}) allibee

Pollux	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee I HAVE read the thread properly and I have twisted NOTHING. My post you quote merely states the gist of the thread. And I welcome any and all to go and have a look. I started the thread, and that was not the purpose for it, nor the gist. I simply wanted some indications, some very general one, just a guiding light, and criterias to pick a decent Master (with names of organsations if good and reliable ones existed). You are free to read it like you want though, and make your assumptions. :) Quote: My whole point is that Reiki graduates get a certificate to plonk on their wall. Am I wrong in thinking that all/most/any of them will tear the certificate up/throw it away/keep it hidden in a drawer? But if you feel the need to be defensive then that is your perogative of course. It would be a very boring forum if we all agreed. As for the importance on Reiki Certifications and Ethics, I think one can't drag it in a Tarot discussion about Ethics, the problems are very different and it woud be superficial to ignore this. Also, you must be ATTUNED for Reiki, but Tarot doesn't have any such need. Am I wrong here? Tarot certification might be useless, but Reiki ones might have a purpose... At least a sort of evidence. What is more, on what ground do you make your assumption? Don't you think it is too wide and exagerated? I have little experience in this so I don't coment on it, whatever my idea might be. Also, I don't think tarotlady was defensive, she was just urged to reply firstly cos it's a topic she feels a lot for, and secondly cos you dragged her/me/my thread in. *LOL* Quote: I have also seen your post in the 'tarot readers do it....' thread in which you take this (unrelated) thread and twist it to make a point. I think you are pretty wrong with this. That's not making a point, and/or defending it, but just stating a fact - the meaning of it (doing it with or without certification) was obviously the KEY of the joke. What surprises me is that I understood that all and I am not a mothertongue, when you haven't... :P *LOL* Now please you two settle down, and stop talking of Reiki here - we are discussing TAROT. :D *LOL*

allibee	11 Jan 2003
First Pollux, no dragging was undertaken by me at least, and was clearly stated from the OUTSET that it was a sidenote. I was trying to add a wider CONTEXT, as in matters New Age/Alternative. Which it seems you have missed the entire point of.:) Re the joke: perhaps it's not very funny to people that have feeling for this issue, like others have for their own favourite subject, would it be funny if I said: reiki practicioners do it because they have a certificate...? haha;) allibee

firemaiden	11 Jan 2003
it seems like wishful thinking on the part of professional tarot readers, to want to have their art form legitimized as a certifiable profession. I admit, from the point of view of a prospective client, it would be nice to know that so-and-so is professionally recognized by someone, it certainly gives me a better feeling about my surgeon, or my plumber, or even my therapist. Although in the case of the therapist even, I have a serious doubt whether his certification promises anything other than the fact that he passed some exams -- Certification makes sense for Doctors and Lawyers, plumbers and electricians, I think, becauset their body of knowledge is mostly standardized (although I wonder if the east/west medicine thing is beginning to wobble that) and based on things that can be mostly measured, However I don't know if it is really possilbe to measure: -the Doctor's ability to make correct diagnosis from his body of knowledge...or: -or the Lawyers power to win the case, or even -the car mechanics ability to find the true problem once and for all -- except maybe a track record For Tarotists, however, I find it impossible to imagine that there could be anything about Tarot Reading that could be measured or standardized in any way... perhaps one could imagine certifiying a track record, but as Mojo puts it in his humourous post -- come back in 60 years, and if I was wrong you can have your money back... or -- Do you see any tigers around? NO? Well, see this amulet against tigers really works!! P.S. Some countries certify singing teachers -- but as every student knows, the most famous and highly certified voice teacher can be an abusive voice wrecker-- here is another virtually uncertifiable profession. ON the other hand it would be nice to have a way to document that someone is a certifiable hack. It would be good to have a "hack" certificate for someone who should be barred from practice...

allibee	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I admit, from the point of view of a prospective client, it would be nice to know that so-and-so is professionally recognized by someone, it certainly gives me a better feeling about my surgeon, or my plumber, or even my therapist. It's that 'feel' good factor, for the client, I agree. Quote: Although in the case of the therapist even, I have a serious doubt whether his certification promises anything other than the fact that he passed some exams That is probably true of all educational qualifications ... all it seems to prove is that you have the capacity to learn. Now when it comes to applying what you have learned, that's a different matter. Which is why I tend to shy away from the word certification - denoting some sort of graduate learning process - in favour of 'professional recognition' for actually applying that learning in a proficient and beneficial manner. heheh, I like the bit about the hack, but again in some people's eyes that would be subjective;) Perhaps I should just have an asp. page on my site where people can leave a tick or a cross against whether they found their reading good/bad/or indifferent, so visitors could make up their own mind? The trouble with adding feedback on readings to your site .... which I have done ... is that it really means nothing unless it's checkable as the sceptics could say that you've made it up!?! allibee

Mojo	11 Jan 2003
Karenwhe, your arguments are based on the assumption that someone other than the certified reader actually cares about a Tarot certification. The harsh ugly reality is, THEY DON'T. Oh sure, you may find the rare, hard-core metaphysics fanatic who is impressed by one, but to the normal person seeking out a Tarot reading, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. People don't view Tarot in the same light as they do doctors or lawyers or therapists or any other legitimate certificate holder (nor should they!). Sorry to say... you may see this as a noble profession but the world doesn't share your point of view. Pretend as much as you want that it's going to be that way in the future, but I'll bet ya on it... see me in 50 years to collect or pay, ok?

allibee	11 Jan 2003
Oh mojo, are you trying to keep tarot reading in the dark ages?;) Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you state in previous posts and threads that the only reason people want a tarot reading is for the magic, mystery or mystique of it all? If that was your comment, then from my personal experience I have to strongly disagree. I feel this is especially because this is a more metaphysically 'accepting' age where people are actively seeking alternative routes of understanding themselves. As I say this is my personal experience, and maybe yours if different. Yes there is an element of the mystery about it, and the taboo of it, but that is a diminishing element I find. But each to his own:) But if you have studied, learned, practiced and evolved as a reader - and charge - then you should be entitled to call yourself a professional, and not a ye olde sideshow. allibee

Karenwhe	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Karenwhe, your arguments are based on the assumption that someone other than the certified reader actually cares about a Tarot certification. The harsh ugly reality is, THEY DON'T. Oh sure, you may find the rare, hard-core metaphysics fanatic who is impressed by one, but to the normal person seeking out a Tarot reading, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. People don't view Tarot in the same light as they do doctors or lawyers or therapists or any other legitimate certificate holder (nor should they!). Sorry to say... you may see this as a noble profession but the world doesn't share your point of view. Pretend as much as you want that it's going to be that way in the future, but I'll bet ya on it... see me in 50 years to collect or pay, ok? Where there is demand there is supply basics in economics. Those organizations and the hundreds of people paying the money to get certified don’t do it for fun, or to waste their money…….. they do it because it adds to their bottom line: income, money, hard core cash – which you should know lots about. And the way you don’t shy away from money, neither do they. And if something on their wall, to show of with will brings two or more clients they already made their money back + interest – and that is what they are interested in (sorry, knock, knock…. Money = reality for many people, including you the way you discuss clients in your posts). Tarot is no longer an under the table mystery type of nonsense, lot more people turn to it to study and to get advise and for tons of other reason whatever they may be. The world kind of has its own evolution…. and in evolutionary process you know what happened to the many species on earth that couldn’t survive changes…. they vanished. I also do not live in the dark ages, not when it come to Tarot or anything else. The so cold harsh reality is that – THEY DO, that is why so many people are making money on this – again where there is demand there is supply. And the initial demand come from another demand, look carefully into the food chain. And for some this issue strikes a big nerve by the looks of things, maybe that is because they just want to keep the Tarot into its old mystics mambo jambo. Sorry, we past that stage already (been there done that, seen that movie). Truth is Tarot has long evolved out of that - where have you been??? Too busy reading for clients to make money??? In addition to which I never said that Tarot WAS or WASN’T a noble profession – it just evolved out of the dark ages, with this process OTHER things have come into play – and JUST ONE of those things is Certifications, there will be many other surprises to come (evolutionary process always has the last word). And if this wasn’t true, we wouldn’t have this debate to start with, and also we wouldn’t have such big differences in our thinking and approach to the issue. In my previous post I tried to explain in the nicest way that there are many types of people with many demands and those demands will be meet by someone that will make money out of it. Now if there is something that you don’t like in this process of evolution that is happening right in our faces, you have to put some time away from “making money” and get involved into trying to create something that will be for the good of the larger majority while taking in consideration that there are NEW Demands.

Diana	11 Jan 2003
Seeing as Umbrae and Co. still have not invited me into their set-up, I have decided to set up my own Tarot Association of Europe. I will draw up some statutes, PM a few of my Aeclectic friends to be Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer etc. The President obviously will be me, and I will receive the highest salary. Official and impressive looking certificates will be signed by the President. They will cost 300 Euros (approx. 300 US dollars). There will of course be a small test (multiple choice), and a five page essay, the topic of which will be yours to choose. If you're interested in receiving this official T.A.E. certificate, please e-mail me and I will get back to you very shortly. For a modest fee of 50 Euros a year, you will receive our monthly newsletter, and will be able to have your name on our website so that people all over the world will know you are a certified T.A.E. reader. I will also be lobbying in Brussels to make sure that only people who have these certificates are able to practice Tarot. I want a law made that those who don't have them will be accused of illegal use of Tarot, just like people who use unorthodox methods of medicine are sometimes accused of illegal use of medicine. There is far too much anarchy in the Tarot world. A little bit of Ordnung is what we need here.

Jenny-Li	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Seeing as Umbrae and Co. still have not invited me into their set-up, I have decided to set up my own Tarot Association of Europe. I will draw up some statutes, PM a few of my Aeclectic friends to be Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer etc. The President obviously will be me, and I will receive the highest salary. Dear Ms President, May I be so blunt as to here offer my aid and support in the T.A.E., and suggest further outlines of certification guidelines to be drawn during out Utrecht summit? I do believe I could think of a couple of nice no-win-questions, so that we can be sure of flunking the right percentage of applicants, and I'd be happy to design the certificate. Sincerely, Jenny-Li :D:D:D:D

Mojo	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe Where there is demand there is supply basics in economics. Those organizations and the hundreds of people paying the money to get certified don’t do it for fun, or to waste their money…….. they do it because it adds to their bottom line: income, money, hard core cash – which you should know lots about. And the way you don’t shy away from money, neither do they. And if something on their wall, to show of with will brings two or more clients they already made their money back + interest – and that is what they are interested in (sorry, knock, knock…. Money = reality for many people, including you the way you discuss clients in your posts). If someone makes money at Tarot, it's because they are an engrossing, entertaining and informative reader who connects with their clients. It's not because they have a certificate on the wall. Get real. You can keep quoting the marketing materials all you want, but it doesn't change things. In more than 30 years of reading, I have NEVER had ANYONE ask me if I was licensed or certified. Zero. Zip. Nada. If certification mattered to the common folk, I would imagine that somewhere along the lines someone would have at least mentioned it in passing. Certification is for snobs who want to feel better than someone else. Period. Just like the Golden Dawn and the other secret societies who decided to "mystify" Tarot to try to keep it from the uninitiated, groups that push certification are being exclusionary, judgmental and artificial. If believing it makes you more money helps you justify it, then just keep on fooling yourself. But don't try to tell me it matters because I'm living proof that it doesn't. I'll compare my income from Tarot to anyone certified or not. If and when I decide to do this as my sole livelihood, I have a nice income to fall back on... WITHOUT a piece of paper to legitimize it.

Mojo	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee But if you have studied, learned, practiced and evolved as a reader - and charge - then you should be entitled to call yourself a professional, and not a ye olde sideshow. There's something wrong with being ye olde sideshow? I would never dream of calling myself a "professional" because it makes no sense to me. I happen to revel in the sideshow/gypsy/scallywag/social-outcase traditions of the Tarot. That's what makes it fun. I have a "professional" job and I can't wait to retire from it. Tarot is my passionate job. Being a professional would cross that line. Set up my tent next to the bearded lady any old time.

allibee	11 Jan 2003
Horses for courses, mojo;O, we'll have to agree to differ then:) (But it's a shame the whole certification thingy has somewhat eclipsed the ethics of ethics thread though.) allibee

jmd	11 Sep 2004
Recently, the issue of Ethics and Certification has again emerged in some discussions, and thought that instead of beginning a new thread, I would add to this one. I'll first separate out four important aspects which arise in this thread, and though I will do none of these proper justice, at least they will provide further points from which to engage further discussion. The four separate aspects are: ethical considerations; codification of ethics; certification of a reader as achieving a certain minimal 'standard'; and societal/social views of Tarot as a legitimate professional tool. Let me perhaps begin by mentioning that on the issues of both certification and of the codification of ethics, time has only firmed the essential points I have previously made within this thread: I do not consider it healthy for Tarot nor its practitioners to be 'certified' nor in developing a codification of ethical reflections. ethical considerations In each and every reading, ethical considerations will arise. These will have to be faced by the individual practitioner in the 'heat of the moment': reflections on the individual situation at hand take precedence over general 'rules' or 'codes'. These latter can only ever properly reflect what past reflections have shown and indicated, and though may therefore also indicate how one may possibly act in a current or future situation, it is the mitigating circumstances, and the insights one gains at the time, which are of greater merit. One day, I trust I will make the effort to articulate more clearly in a paper this ever-so-important distinction to be made between ethical considerations and reflections and, on the other hand, the death-like consequence of codifying these. For the purposes of this thread, I also trust that it is clear that I consider ethical considerations of high importance. This is, however different to the next point. codification of ethics In many ways, I have already addressed this in the former section. Yet I also hear from those who prefer such that a clearly articulated code assists in both reader and prospective querent gaining an appreciation as to the kind of expected reading. I would suggest that, unless for some reason this is not possible, a sense for the reader can as easily be had by talking or discussions prior to a reading. Five minutes of such may indicate more than either an acquired or a formed 'code'. A 'About the reader' may be far more informative. One of the important considerations which needs to be made is whether increased usage of codifications will give an impression that there is a particular 'roping-in' or narrowing of acceptable ways of reading. Are codifications heading progressively in the direction eventually confined to the therapist? So many north American codes I have seen make mention of lack of either legal, therapeutic or financial 'advice'. I presume that this is on the grounds that there are ulterior and legal constraints with specific consequences. Any 'advice' which one sees in the cards will need to be determined as either appropriate or not, and as communicable or not depending on, hopefully, other factors. Codifications also seek to somehow reflect or mimic certain minimally claimed 'standard'. This, however, is nonsense. It is for those who make such claims to demonstrate that this is the case (which, in my view, cannot be done, as it is not), rather than preying on fears of possible charlatanism (which will unfortunately remain in this and other professions and areas of life - after all, charlatans prey on those who are at risk. Neither stated 'code' nor certificate prevents this). certification of a reader as achieving a certain minimal 'standard' Of course, we all know that Swords refer to Water and Emotions, and this should accurately be reflected in the reading. Getting an Ace of Swords, then, should clearly indicate that whole emotional life has been unified (eg: Spanish Esoterico deck and Ace as 1/1). I of course wrote the above paragraph to demonstrate an example of something which not that long ago at least some certification bodies would have deemed totally unacceptable. Perhaps this has already changed somewhat, with perhaps a better sense for diversity in view. Yet, either the diversity is expanded in such a way as to render the the certification process a farce, or it limits it in such ways that a similar example to the above may again be made. It should be noted that I am not in the least speaking against any courses which seeks to further and deepen understanding of Tarot. Rather, I talk here of a certification process which seeks to lend (false) 'legitimacy' to the reader as reader. societal/social views of Tarot as a legitimate professional tool. That Tarot is legitimate does not further mean that constraints are to be placed. Tarot and its usage may find various and myriad uses. Its use, for example, by a professional psychotherapist will presumably be quite different to its usage by the Catholic priest who uses it to guide his Sunday sermon - and each will be different to the divinatory usage it may likewise be used for. This last, of course, cannot be 'standardised' or certified, yet it is principally this area in which Tarot finds its use. ...but enough for now.

shelikes2read	12 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd codification of ethics In many ways, I have already addressed this in the former section. Yet I also hear from those who prefer such that a clearly articulated code assists in both reader and prospective querent gaining an appreciation as to the kind of expected reading. I would suggest that, unless for some reason this is not possible, a sense for the reader can as easily be had by talking or discussions prior to a reading. Five minutes of such may indicate more than either an acquired or a formed 'code'. A 'About the reader' may be far more informative. One of the important considerations which needs to be made is whether increased usage of codifications will give an impression that there is a particular 'roping-in' or narrowing of acceptable ways of reading. Are codifications heading progressively in the direction eventually confined to the therapist? So many north American codes I have seen make mention of lack of either legal, therapeutic or financial 'advice'. I presume that this is on the grounds that there are ulterior and legal constraints with specific consequences. Any 'advice' which one sees in the cards will need to be determined as either appropriate or not, and as communicable or not depending on, hopefully, other factors. Codifications also seek to somehow reflect or mimic certain minimally claimed 'standard'. This, however, is nonsense. It is for those who make such claims to demonstrate that this is the case (which, in my view, cannot be done, as it is not), rather than preying on fears of possible charlatanism (which will unfortunately remain in this and other professions and areas of life - after all, charlatans prey on those who are at risk. Neither stated 'code' nor certificate prevents this). Speaking for myself, I have reasons why I added a "Code of Ethics" page to my site. There are standards of behavior that I hold myself to, with or without the fact that I typed them out and posted them online. The people who know me face-to-face are aware of this. They know that if I read for them, I'd never repeat any of the reading's contents to anyone else. They also know that they are going to get what the cards REALLY say, not what they want to hear. I'll be diplomatic about it and I'll phrase it with consideration for their feelings, but by gosh I am not going to lie by commission or omission regarding what those cards are supposed to mean. Also, they know that I will be level with them regarding a question that I'm not qualified to answer. If I know that the question is out of my league, or if they are asking something that the Tarot is not designed to answer, I'll tell them so. And if it's possible to rephrase the question to something that I CAN answer, I'll work with them to do so. But my Code of Ethics page isn't designed for the people who know me, It's intended for the people who have never interacted with me, other than by finding my page via a search engine or a webring. I want to make my approach to reading clear to them from the outset, so they can make a more inforned decision as to whether to request a reading from me or not. In fact, I've even posted on sites like craigslist.org, and in the ad I've included comments like "If you would like to know more, click on my Code of Ethics page", with a hyperlink to said page. "THEN, if you find my approach to Tarot reading agreeable, visit my home page" (with another hyperlink) "to see what kinds of readings are available". My intent is to let the prospective Seeker know, BEFORE they ask for a reading, how I handle things. Since the readings I am offering will take place online, rather than face-to-face, this is the best way I could think of to introduce myself to them. These are the standards that I'd hold myself to, whether I codified them or not. I might as well just come out and say so, right? :) In my case, I am also influenced by the fact that I completed training as an Interpreter of American Sign Language, and there is an Interpreter's Code of Ethics that is a crucial part of said training. There were several parts of the Interpreter's Code of Ethics, such as the strict confidentiality and the requirement that a person NOT accept a job that they're aware they are not qualified for, that I felt compelled to include in the Code of Ethics page on my site. BTW, I think you're on to something when you mention that a lot of North American readers' codes of ethics include disclaimers about not providing medical, legal, or financial advice. I believe that a reader who tried to offer any of the above, when they were not qualified to do so by virtue of also being a medical, legal, or financial professional, could possibly be sued if their advice was erroneous and the Seeker suffered some kind of loss as a result. I can guarantee you that I put a legal disclaimer on the first page of my website, declaring that "State Law requires me to inform you that you must be at least 18 years of age to receive this service, which is provided for entertainment purposes only". Pennsylvania has laws against fortune-telling, and if the reader provides service for a minor or if they don't declare outright that they're providing readings for entertainment only, they ABSOLUTELY could be prosecuted for it. It's been done. Of course, in the cases of the swindling, money-grubbing charlatans who cheat people out of thousands of dollars with the claim there is a curse/bad luck/negative energy/whatever that must be dispelled for a price, those crooks DESERVE to be hauled into court. Heck, they deserve to be hauled off to JAIL. When Pennsylvania cracks down on THEM with the anti-fortune-telling law, I'm all for it. I'm aware that the lying thieves of the world are perfectly capable of posting a code of ethics that they CLAIM to follow, even though they don't. :( And if that means that people will look with skepticism on ALL readers, including the ones who have a code of ethics that they actually live up to, I can understand why. I'd rather see people be skeptical and cautious about all readers than get swindled by a charlatan. But I still don't know how to let people whom I haven't met yet know that I say what I mean, and I mean what I say, unless I set it in print for them to review before they decide whether or not to ask me for a reading. Writing out a code of ethics might be an imperfect solution, but even so, it serves a purpose.

Mesara	12 Sep 2004
I admit that I really don't know much about the various tarot institutions/guilds that exist, the certificates they procure, the ethics and codes of conduct they try to instill in their members, etc... But I do know that Im a knowledgable, gifted, and well received tarot reader in my own little communtiy, and that I have built an honorable reputation as such without the aid of certificates and other pretentious and - sorry if I offend anyone - meaningless "documents of recognition". I realize that it is human nature to want to receive recognition and respect for your skill and talent in whatever chosen vocation, including Tarot; but who is really qualified to bestow such honors on tarot readers? I think tarot is a very personal thing, everyone does it a bit differently, and I think one's aptitude at reading the tarot simply cannot be judged by a panel of "experts". In fact, I think this whole uprising of "certification" is nothing but a means to make these "experts" feel somehow more superior and secure and "excusive". For those of you who may be certified, I mean no offense. Im sure there are really good tarot readers who have these certifications, just as im certain there are really bad ones who have these certifications as well. (anyone can jump through the necessary hoops and memorize what these organizations tell you to to get the prized certificate). I personally hate to see tarot become so institutionalized.

Diana	12 Sep 2004
Oh, this thread has been bumped up! I remember it! It made me mad. Just to let people know that I am still very happy to deliver certificates to them from the Tarot Guild and League of Switzerland (of which I am President as well as Treasurer. There are no other administrators, so as to make running costs as low as possible.) A very beautiful certificate it is. It is very very official looking, with rubber stamps and everything. For a small extra fee, you can get a ribbon (colour of your choice) and even your PHOTO on it so people will know it was really delivered to you and not to your neighbour. It's written in sort of Gothic-like writing which makes it look sort of EXOTIC and your clients will be very impressed by it. The test to get it is really not very difficult (multiple choice questions) and you get a pass mark if you get 50% of them right. For instance, here is an example of a question: "Which town is mentioned in the name of the Tarot of Marseilles? - a) Brussels, b) Berlin c) Marseilles" another example: "Which movement did Arthur Waite belong to: 1) The Golden Fleece 2) The Golden Dawn 3) The Rising Sun (I know this last question is a bit hard, but after all, you do need to show that you have a good knowledge of the Tarot. I can't deliver certificates to just anybody. That would not be ethical.) It's a bit expensive of course, but it is worth it. It will look BEAUTIFUL on your wall. I accept PayPal and also direct transfers to my bank account (Swiss bank account of course, but this does NOT mean that my offer is shady. :D ).

The Ethics and Certification thread was originally posted on 06 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.