Linguistic Observation

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Khatruman	21 Jan 2003
Being an English teacher whose studies have focused on linguistics, I tend to muse on how people's instinctive use of words tells much about how they perceive things. For instance, most people will tell you that they are going to "watch TV" rather than "watch the TV". I have heard a study which points out that the non-inclusion of the article "the" signifies how people quite often turn on TV for company or distraction, rather than for the goal of seeing a particular show. This goes along with the LOP theory (Least Objectionable Program) where people will scan the channels to settle on something that isn't as objectionable to them, as opposed to seeking out a show they truly wish to watch. How many folks will flip and flip, say that "nothing is on" but still continue to flip until they settle on something that isn't "that bad" rather than taking the logical conclusion that, if nothing is on, why not turn it off?? In any case, my real point: When I bring up tarot, let's say in my folklore class, and a student will find out that I know how to read them, the student will invariably ask, "Can you read my cards?" I think it is interesting the possession they take of the cards at the point. They could have asked, "Can you do a card reading for me?" or "Can you answer something for me with the cards?" but they almost always call them "My cards" Rather than tell you what I see, I leave this as a point of discussion as to how the interested querent actually sees the cards as evidenced from this turn of phrase. What do you think?

Macavity	21 Jan 2003
Heheh. I think it's possible that they may be suggesting the somehow THEIR cards (alone!) might be far too difficult for YOU to interpret? This, while doubtless retaining THEIR right to disbelieve YOU anyway! :D It does also seem to be applied to such things as "YOUR" stars in tabloid newspapers etc. Odd isn't it? On the other hand MY (own particular!) weather was so bad today that I decided to stay indoors. Hmmm It's all in the lap of THE Gods *I* reckon... ;) Macavity Also applied sometimes in phrases like THE wife, THE girlfriend etc. I suppose? Also implying an option to dissociate or change one's mind perhaps? LOL! Hmmm. NOT by ME, I hasten to add - I was warned about that one well in advance of trying... })

Kiama	21 Jan 2003
As always, I shall play teh devil's advocate just for the possible discussion we could get out of it. Is it not possible that people refer to us reading 'their cards' merely cuz it's currently accepted phrase which they hear quite often as a question acceptable to pose when asking for a reading? And I think I'm lucky here, cuz people always ask: 'Could you do me a reading?' or something like that, and I haven't yet heard them refer to my cards as 'theirs'. Goodness knows what would happen if they did! }) Kiama

Woof	21 Jan 2003
I think the turn of phrase used indicates that they feel, perhaps on a subconcious level, that there are cards or energies embodied by certain cards "out there" for their specific problem. Kind of like the future is all laid out and all you as reader have to do is pick it out and show it to them. The most obvious thing it shows is that they are uneducated about Tarot and either the above is true or, as Kiama suggested, it's just the phrase they know. Woof

Demonesse	21 Jan 2003
I've never asked anyone to read "my cards" although I have asked for "a reading". I've never had anyone turn linguitically possessive over the cards, although people do ask: Can you tell me my fortune? That is certainly a generally accepted phrase, although perhaps not amongst true tarot readers. ;)

Aoife	21 Jan 2003
I see the expression 'my cards' as a positive sign - that the seeker has taken ownership of/responsibility for giving due attention to the advice/insight the cards have for them. Perhaps I am just too naive?

Silverlotus	21 Jan 2003
I agree with Kiama. "Will you read my cards?", etc. seems to be the sort of phrase you often see or hear in all types of media when refereing to "fortune telling." I think people may use this wording because they believe that it is what is expected, adds to the mysterious atmosphere of the whole thing, what-have-you. I'd be more likely to ask for or offer a reading for someone, as in "Would you like a Tarot reading?", not "Would you like me to read your cards?" Maybe because I don't go for the whole whatever it is that popular culture has built up around card readings, or maybe because they are MY cards! not theirs! lol! :)

Teranar	21 Jan 2003
Hey, man, read my cards One time I asked someone why they say my cards, and he said it's what they say on TV. But for some reason it grates on my nerves when they ask for a reading like that.

Umbrae	21 Jan 2003
I think that the skools just don’t teech pimple to talk good no more. That hole dumbing down and all that stuff you know? Nobody toks gud englash cuz you don’t get failed cuz of your ruined self imudj. You don’t gotta. Maf! Y do I gotta lurn maf? Machines do if phor me! I dun gotta lurn to make change da machine do it for me… O…my parnts? They ain’t home and they don’t care. They let the skool teach. They work and drik. I jus go wach tv and be kwiet now. Read your cards for you...day your cardz, I steeled em.

Alex	21 Jan 2003
people ask "would you read MY cards?" but then they say "that woman read the cards for me" Go figure. Alex.

Khatruman	21 Jan 2003
What delightful answers... and I see definitely where it is the "accepted" phrasing, as on TV shows, etc., but I think it is dismissive just to say it's merely because that's what everyone says. I think something sticks as common phrasing because deep down it resonates as true. The reason why everyone uses a particular phrasing is often because that's the collective understanding of the concept. I think there is another theoretical thread on this involving social consciousness and understanding of tarot. As for the dumbing down of the "skools," seems people lately are applauding stupidity... Hey, if you can get a few cool millions from a large corporation because you are too stupid to realize that if you sit a scalding hot cup of coffee between your legs in a moving car and perhaps squeeze when you hit the accelerator, it just might leak out and BURN you... well why not just be dumb? Though it doesn't really disgust me that someone would be stupid enough to do that, but that 12 other people thought that a large corporation was at fault for her stupidity and should give her obscene amounts of money for it. Meanwhile, the rest of us must be treated to... "Caution: Contents of this container may be HOT" Ohhhh???? You mean I don't have to use my common sense? :D

tarotbear	22 Jan 2003
"After the war, there was peace". However, the war came 'before' the peace. So why do we phrase the sentence this way? I always interpret 'Can you read my cards?' as meaning "After I shuffle the cards and cut them, will you spread them out and tell me what you see?" Since the Querent shuffled the cards, and you are interpreting the cards 'they' shuffled; you are reading 'their' cards. What's the problem here? Semantics? Possession is nine-tenths of the law? Why does the doctor always say "How are WE feeling today?" - I don't give a damn about how he feels; he isn't paying me! What am I supposed to say if a Querent asks me 'Can you read my cards?' - ask them if they brought their own deck? LOL!!!

patter	22 Jan 2003
'My cards' may simple be an extension of could you read 'my' palm/'my'aura etc. Or it could be that the cards dealt are in a sense 'their cards, the ones that reflect things about them (the ones that stay in the deck are not).

Macavity	22 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman ... "Caution: Contents of this container may be HOT" I always liked the one on the box of tablets which were supposed to assist people with sleeping difficulties - "Warning: Product may cause drowsiness..." :) Or the two psychics meeting: "You're fine - How am I"...

Kiama	22 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I think that the skools just don’t teech pimple to talk good no more. That hole dumbing down and all that stuff you know? Nobody toks gud englash cuz you don’t get failed cuz of your ruined self imudj. You don’t gotta. Maf! Y do I gotta lurn maf? Machines do if phor me! I dun gotta lurn to make change da machine do it for me… O…my parnts? They ain’t home and they don’t care. They let the skool teach. They work and drik. I jus go wach tv and be kwiet now. Read your cards for you...day your cardz, I steeled em. Umbrae, you made me cry with laughter. I know far too many people who speak like this. Kiama

tarotbear	22 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Umbrae, you made me cry with laughter. I know far too many people who speak like this. Kiama What's even worse is I know too many people who WRITE like this, and have no idea their writing, English, or grammar skills are substandard. "Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?"

Teranar	22 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I think that the skools just don’t teech pimple to talk good no more. That hole dumbing down and all that stuff you know? Nobody toks gud englash cuz you don’t get failed cuz of your ruined self imudj. You don’t gotta. Maf! Y do I gotta lurn maf? Machines do if phor me! I dun gotta lurn to make change da machine do it for me… O…my parnts? They ain’t home and they don’t care. They let the skool teach. They work and drik. I jus go wach tv and be kwiet now. Read your cards for you...day your cardz, I steeled em. (Gets up after falling over from laughing) (Bursts into laughter again) (Falls over again) On that humourous note whenever people ask me Hey man read my cards, I pull out this deck of normal playing cards, shuffle, cut, deal out 5 to myself and the requestor, and read it like a Poker game. FULL HOUSE! Dealer wins!

Osher	22 Jan 2003
What do we expect when people do not know the difference between can and may, get i.e. and e.g. mixed up, incorrectly use annihilate and decimate and so on? Yet, tell someone they are wrong and you are elitist. Ah what a world! I just recall asking for a precise once, and being asked why I wanted Tracey. Or the young lad who was chewing gum in the dock who was told by the judge to stop masticating, at which point he took his hands out of his pockets and said sorry. At least people don't say 'me cards'. (or do they......?!) My cards would signify that for a period of time the cards are changed. You say 'my appointment', that is, for a period of time the doctor is yours. This shows a degree of faith in tarot, that they understand the personal aspect of it. Interesting that you observe that people do not use the past tense of 'my cards'. That's something I have never noticed.

Khatruman	22 Jan 2003
Perhaps I am in the minority among English teachers in that I am not particularly irritated by grammatical difficulties. I am hearing folks getting terribly disillusioned because many people don't know how to use particular words, abbreviations, and so forth, in their proper places. I realize that, although I know the language isn't being used absolutely to the standards of the Queen's English (or towards Strunk and White *s*) I find that I get more irritated by lack of thought. I am not bothered by grammar mistakes if there is a heart and mind behind the words. And isn't language there to convey the message anyway? I know fellow English teachers who will crucify a paper because of grammar problems when that paper has such wonderful thought and gut emotion to it that it makes my skin electrify. And I have read prose that is so complex and grammatically sophisticated--with not a comma out of place--that bores me to tears because the writer wishes merely to impress with the language. I think that type of love for properness kept Toni Morrison and Alice Walker off the list of 100 Best Novels of the 20th Century, though both have written books that were to me works of electrifying wonder.

Insomnia Turtle	23 Jan 2003
Though I am not an English teacher and tend to speak and type far from perfect English, I really don't think that the sentance "Could you read my cards?" is that bad. Of course, that could be because I am used to it (living in a bilingual enviroment can do that to you). I also know that people are not walking dictionaries and grammar books. Sure, it's funny. Even I had a good laugh at some of the things that have been posted in this thread, but maybe, just maybe, some of you might be going a little far with this. I am not saying this to try and start a fight and am totally open to anyone's opinion against this, but I ask that, before anyone decides to show their intelligence by correcting my post, please just take a moment to think about this. If you had never asked a person to do a reading for you, and had no knowledge of how it is done beyond the obvious stereotypical crap that you heard from some TV show, how would you ask? Would you ask in the most appropriate way you knew how? Or would you go home, get out your grammer book and dictionary and compose a grammatically correct and "intelligent sounding" question before asking the next day? Now I could see getting a bit pissed if someone asked you in a sarcastic way, clearly showing that he thinks very little of you or your cards, but getting all bent out of shape because someone honestly asks you, whether they said it incorrectly or not?

Khatruman	23 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Insomnia Turtle I really don't think that the sentence "Could you read my cards?" is that bad. ...some of you might be going a little far with this. ...Now I could see getting a bit pissed if someone asked you in a sarcastic way, clearly showing that he thinks very little of you or your cards, but getting all bent out of shape because someone honestly asks you, whether they said it incorrectly or not? I'm sorry, IT, my intention in this thread was not to criticize the turn of phrase, but to examine it. I absolutely agree with your irritation at people being too picky about grammar, as you can see in my post above yours. As a linguist, I find it interesting what word choices people make to express ideas, and I think that can be wonderfully insightful in regards to the collective consciousness. Even the simple use of "my" in this context may be insignificant, but I am one that looks at the seemingly insignificant and unconscious choices as often telling of a deeper spirit. My intention was not to nitpick, but to examine, and examining the word "my" is, of course, petty. Sorry if you felt any ridicule on my part. Peace!

tarotbear	23 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman I find it interesting what word choices people make to express ideas, and I think that can be wonderfully insightful in regards to the collective consciousness. Throughout my life I have always been accussed of manipulating words or playing with words....which I do. I have a strong theatre performing background and have much experience dealing with the spoken word- how it sounds and what you think was said. {'Did he say hair, hare, here, or hear?'} In theatre, people have nothing but the spoken word and only hear HOW you say something or phrased something. That is why 'printed word' bulletin boards such as this forum have problems - there is no nuance in the printed word. Many a battle has been fought because someone added their own inflection/interpretation to a written-word phrase that simply isn't there. Of course, that, too, tells something about THEM. For example: several weeks ago I was accused of making an 'unkind' remark - which I made to NO ONE in particular, merely addressed a group of self-righteous something-or-others. Many people felt as though I was speaking DIRECTLY TO THEM and got their knickers in a knot, posting all sorts of vehemous retorts. The fact that it was addressed at no one in particular but THEY took umbrage is I was speaking directly to THEM says far more about them than it does about me. Play with words? I do it all the time! What you heard is not necessarily what you think I said. And I probably planned it that way.

Osher	25 Jan 2003
Does written have to follow spoken? In many newspapers and online services (e.g the BBC), one finds the line that it does. Hence, sentances starting with but, and, because, and so on. Even paragraphs starting in such a fashion. Now, that might be acceptable, just. However, when actual words are abused, and it considered elitist to correct, then one wonders just how our language will evolve? One of the beauties of the English language is that we have so many subtle differencies between words. In modern Hebrew, which I also speak, there are far fewer words. Therefore, it becomes harder to use these differencies. The word fewer, for example, means a lesser amount, when the amount is quantifiable. Less, means a lesser amount, when the amount is not quantifiable. So, when you see a checkout isle with a sign about it saying '10 Items or less', it is wrong. However, in M&S, after a campaign they changed it. Yet, as most people do not know the difference, what is the point? Language is means of communication, as well as being beautiful (in the hands of the Bard, for example). However, it's purpose as a means of communication lie in it's universal understandibility. When words are commonly taken to mean something else, then that, in effect becomes it's meaning. As a recent example, the word gay until recently meant (roughly) happy. Today it is a slang term for a specific gender. Words can also change meaning dependent on group. I use dope. For 90% of the population it means something illegal, the rest would understand I was speaking about my model aircraft. For obvious reasons I would refrain therefore from talking about dope around the general public. There are now books helping people to learn Estuary English, here is my attempt: Sa, woz diz tarah fing den? Juza paca cards wiv funna pics on em, nah? Tell da fuut'ya? So ooz gonna win deh race diz arftanoon? Wodja men ja canna understand wah im sayin?

Alex	25 Jan 2003
sublte differences in meaning for things that are important to that culture. For example, even though we don't have words to differentiate quantities we can count from those we cannot, we have different words for "missing" in Portuguese. I *miss* my keys= *perdi* minhas chaves I miss you = tenho *saudades* de voce. Missing somebody Missing a place Missing a bus Missing an object All these are expressed with different words. Go figure. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Happiness One of the beauties of the English language is that we have so many subtle differencies between words. In modern Hebrew, which I also speak, there are far fewer words. Therefore, it becomes harder to use these differencies.

Macavity	25 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness There are now books helping people to learn Estuary English Uhm - I'm WELL (aaaargh!) impressed! :) If you haven't seen it you might enjoy: http://rinkworks.com/dialect/ Macavity

Alex	25 Jan 2003
Oh, dat be great. Man! ah' love it. Man!

Osher	25 Jan 2003
Many years ago in Israel I was with some colleagues who noticed I was friendly with one of the new (and very pretty) girls. Oh I said, I knew her from before. Except I used the wrong word 'yordeah', which means knows as in understand, and is slang for having had carnal relations with. I should have said 'makear', which is knows as in to recognise Anyway, for the few weeks I was considered a real lad by my colleagues......until they worked about what I meant to say... Hence when people say they know someone in the Biblical sense....

Osher	25 Jan 2003
MACAVITY! What a COOOOOL site! I know one shouldn't shout, but heck, worth it! Had so much fun! Hey, maybe I should 'translate' a reading of mine. Golly, could be quite funny! Hey, thanks again!

Insomnia Turtle	26 Jan 2003
khatruman - I am sorry. Once again my poor ways with words has delivered the wrong message. I was not saying anything against your posts. In fact, I found your post about the "heart and mind behind the words" wonderful. I could see why you thought that way though as I mentioned that I was not a teacher, but I meant that to meen that I was not an "authority" on the English language. Once again I apologize. tarotbear - I am sorry if you think that I typed that post because I was offended (of course, I can only assume this, but I thought I would apologize anyway). I'm not offended in any way. In fact, I found much of the "teasing" on this thread absolutely hilarious. I just wanted to add my thoughts on the thread. By the way, I like your comment about knowing more about the person by the way they react to certain posts. I have learned a lot about you :).

Alissa	26 Jan 2003
You see, this is why I was an English major -- I take people so literally at times, they think I'm being dumb. My first thought when reading the posed question, "Would you read my cards?" was ... you have a tarot deck, and you're asking me to use your deck to read with. Now, it only takes me a moment to figure out NO that's not it. But since it's another take on how to interpret the exact same quote, I thought I'd throw it in the discussion.

Teranar	26 Jan 2003
The irony is almost smothering - we're misunderstanding what eachother's saying because of misinterperitation of a language, all while trying to figure out a phraze in the same language. To be honest when someone asked me if I could read their cards, I asked them what deck they had.

Osher	26 Jan 2003
Or suppose you understand language, and then get someone who doesn't? For example, many people know that e.g. means for example, and i.e. mean that is. How often do people get them wrong? So, you think that the example given is the only one, when it is just an example. What I have noticed is that people try and sound more erudite than they are. So, they have seen the word i.e., assume wrongly that is a fancy way of saying e.g., and so use it. It does at least prove that people do try and sound more 'elite', despite years of dumbing down. Yet, as people take over and abuse a word, it then becomes rendered redundant in it's original meaning, and another subtle word is lost....Ah well! Moving back to tarot, do you change your accent/vocabuary to match the readee?

The Linguistic Observation thread was originally posted on 21 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.