Quality decks or not?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

RiccardoLS	08 Jan 2003
I was unsure wheter to create this topic. As usual I'm torn between my company loyalty and my personal feelings. But as LS may benefit from my presence on the Forum, it my also suffer some poor consequence of my suden mood changes :) This may be a result of my personal tastes or opinions, but I have the feeling that the best decks, the better done, the most original, or with greater substance, or more inspired art... are almost always low sellers. And I see many "crap" decks skyrocket in the Tarot market. Why? That's because many decks are built just to be sold: nice colors, compelling titles, alluring books... All of the Publisher (and sometimes the authors) energies and resources are moved toward selling. And once the poor customer has the deck, everyone is satisfied. :) Even if that deck gives just very superficial feelings, and is forgotten just as quickly as it was acquired. Even in such an higly subjective world, such that of Tarot, I think it is important that the community of customers makes an effort to require quality from the Publishers and authors. Less decks... but better decks. There is only one way to get this: be sure to spend money on quality decks. This outburst came from a bad mood (eh eh), but also from Solandia review of the Journey to the Orient Tarot. While I'm one of the authors of the deck... I really can't stand the art. :) The artist, I think, has not any interest, nor ability, into pulling "soul" into the cards. And I know that deck will sell incredibly well. Sigh :( Perhaps we are used to rely too much on instinct when buying a deck... and that leads each one of us to buy the easiste, more immediately appealing decks. But as often as not a deck that works well immediately works well not for long. A large well is not deep. Riccardo

RedWood	08 Jan 2003
Which decks do you consider quality decks?

Kissa	08 Jan 2003
Maybe quality decks would be old traditional decks (Marseilles, Scapini, Mantegna though NOT a traditional tarot deck etc.) or self-published ones (Songs for the Journey Home, sorry still had to mention it ;-) among many others ) .... ? Just my two cents and just after finishing a reading with the bestselling Robin Wood deck ;-) ... [woman's logic ...] Kissa

Mojo	08 Jan 2003
Riccardo I have to agree with you. But I would approach it from the other end of the spectrum. Most decks that are created with popular tastes in mind are often the most horrible ones to try to read with, which after all is the main reason why Tarot cards exist. I think the reason for this is that I would expect that the great majority of Tarot cards are bought by people who are beginners in Tarot, or who think they might be interested in learning. From experience, I would say that the vast majority (95% or more) buy a deck, play with it for a week or a month or so, and then put it down never to touch it again. The true practitioners have much higher standards for a deck of Tarot cards. This doesn't mean that we won't also buy the more popular decks. I know I certainly do! But I only collect them if I find them "collectable" for some reason. A recent example for me is the Wizard of Oz Tarot. This is much too specialized of a deck to try to use for readings (plus, I have my ONE TRUE DECK that I use for 99% of my readings and that's not going to change!). However, I liked the artwork and colors in the Oz deck and I found the stories they associated with the cards to be clever and interesting, so I bought the deck even though I knew I would never really use it. However, when I buy a "serious" deck, I have a whole list of standards that it must meet before it will find its way into my hands. This includes a careful matching of the artwork and symbolism into the more traditional and/or historical Tarots. For example, I will not buy a deck which changes any of the names of the Major Arcana or messes with the suits of the Minors (switching rods or staves for wands is acceptable, but changing it to something altogether unrelated just won't do!). There are also certain cards I look at to see how they fit in with my personal interpretation of them. I have many LS decks in my collection. You certainly put out a quality product. Whenever I see lists of new decks, I will automatically pay attention to the new LS titles before most others. I'm particularly fond of your Secret Tarot, which I like for its darkness and moodiness. Welcome to the forums, and take it from me, the mood shifts are welcome (since I'm usually one of the moodiest people on here!). My "Quality" Deck List: Royal Fez Moroccan (my primary deck) Il Tarocco Bizzarro (my main back-up deck) Tarocco Delle Collezioni (my most expensive deck!) LS Universal Tarot LS Secret Tarots Napo Tarot Tarot de Pumariega Cosmic Tribe Tarot LS Avalon Tarot (this one fails most of my tests, but I like it anyway) World Spirit Tarot (ditto)

dangerdork	08 Jan 2003
Hi Riccardo: I admire your honesty. It's very difficult to judge your own work as an artist or author, and especially your most recent project. I must admit I have not seen the actual deck of the Journey to The Orient, just the online screen shots. I understand your reluctance to make that post, but I applaud your integrity in doing so. I for one associate Lo Scarabeo decks with quality art and originality in themes, and as a collector and an artist I am more willing to purchase a deck "sight unseen" from LS than any other publisher. Sophistication and popularity often have an inverse relationship, not just in the visual arts but in music and literature as well. As an artist, and as a loyal Lo Scarabeo customer, I encourage that you continue to follow your interests and passions, and not the profit margin. You will always have customers if you do so.

Jewel	08 Jan 2003
Hi Riccardo ... thanks for posting this. I have been feeling very moody about my last few aquisitions so this is a good thread for me to vent on *LOL* (unlike Mojo, I am usually not moody *LOL*). I am probably a publishers dream *LOL*, I say that because I usually fall prey to temptation of new tarot decks. I am also in the 95% that Mojo mentioned. But all that aside, when it comes to a working deck I do have standards and there have only been 4 decks that I have taken really seriously (Robin Wood, Tarot of the Old Path, Osho Zen and Cosmic Tribe). Actually since getting the Cosmic Tribe I must admit to using it exclusively for readings. I do not mind titles and cards changing around a bit as long as it makes sense to me. I also don't mind if swords are air or fire ... one LS deck that left me scratcing my head was the Crystal ... swords as water???? I find the LS products to be made of very high quality materials and I really like the art work, but I have yet to really connect to one. I am hoping that the Fey Tarot will break that pattern. Many of the decks being produced in general just leave me cold these days ... Like with most anything else, each of us will have a different definition of "quality". Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder.

Karenwhe	08 Jan 2003
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder............. I think this goes for decks as well. Though publishers go to great lengths to change the "eyes of the beholder".

Dark Inquisitor	08 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS This may be a result of my personal tastes or opinions, but I have the feeling that the best decks, the better done, the most original, or with greater substance, or more inspired art... are almost always low sellers. And I see many "crap" decks skyrocket in the Tarot market. Why? That's because many decks are built just to be sold: nice colors, compelling titles, alluring books....All of the Publisher (and sometimes the authors) energies and resources are moved toward selling. Riccardo [/b] Hi Riccardo, This is not only true for tarot decks, but every other consumer product as well. Crap is king, as the song says. And it will probably not change anytime soon. The challenge is find the balance & combine the best of both worlds. Many decks just don't seem to have been objectively viewed with a critical eye while in process. I know artists don't like to change their work & they want their own special vision to prevail. But though it may be unique, etc., it may drive actual users nuts. This is just a fact of life. Other decks that approach greatness seem to be the vicitm of a small error in printing- causing them to look washed out. No contrast, no impact. If that was what the artist had in mind, somebody should be able to see that the cards are washed out & say something to change it before it gets to the permanent stage. There are decks that the faces are just rendered so poorly on, I won't buy them because I know I couldn't look at that every day without being annoyed. Pip cards- another controversy. I like illustrated minors- but I know others don't. Sometimes the majors are just stunning & it's like- well- where's the rest of it? If a compromise could be arrived at, maybe small symbols or illustrations thrown on, that would make all the difference in whether or not I will buy a deck. If the artists wants no numerals printed on the cards, that is annoying also- I don't want to try & count all the swords, etc. myself. Cards that are too large to shuffle comfortably are another problem & many have decided no more of it. I am on the borderline of that one. My point basically is that if the more inspired decks could be tweaked a little & the crap decks could be toned up a few notches, it might be better for both. I will add that if the artist has a unique vision , but their skills as an illustrator are really awful, somebody should step in & require that they collaborate with a skilled illustrator to get their vision realized professionally before agreeing to publish. I feel better now. Tarotphelia

Cerulean	08 Jan 2003
Thanks for coming out with your opinion of Journey to the Orient. While it's my least favorite East-West style tarot right now, it might be an interesting match to some Marco Polo literature I have...too soon to tell right now. Among the latest non-gilded Lo Scarabeo decks, Fey and Comparative are quite interesting to me. Origins and Sphynx are more interesting to me now because of Comparative. I think they are quality...but I hope Fey and Comparative aren't destined to be low sellers. I thought it was too soon to tell? I don't know if this is a low seller...but I really like the quality of Romantic Tarots by Trevisan, even it is 22 cards and I'm really doing word-by word Italian to English translation of the booklet. Berti's words translated with good historical notes and Trevisan's deep contrast in his colors to me would make this a natural and interesting tarot to me, in English. Although I don't find Romanticism information in the tarot write-up, the whole package of this tarot as 22 cards were actually worth it to me (TarotGarden has Romantic Tarot). Now when I contrast it with a former favorite, Trevisan's Tarot of the Renaissance, while pretty, I'm somewhat disappointed. The mystery and romance of unexplained tales is stronger in Romantic, and it is not as moody as Secrets Tarot. I realize I like the high contrast palette of Secrets, but don't want to use it every day. I don't know if you find Secrets as a quality tarot, but I do recall that it was a good seller in Japan? I don't know if my questions address your note. This is an interesting topic to me.

Dark Inquisitor	08 Jan 2003
After looking at the scans from Tarot of the Journey to the Orient, I think they are technically very good from what I can see. But done in a kind of 50's retro style of adventure art that would not be to my taste either. The faces seem rather Westernized rather than authentically Asian, which might be troubling to some. Had the faces been more accurate, it would have added quite a bit. I can't really see them too well however. I see what you mean about lack of soul . It could be that the people attracted to this kind of deck are applying their own soul onto the images, & it is not bothersome to them. I am thinking when I look at this deck that if the skies & backgrounds had been replaced with straight blackness, it would have jarred you out of that 50's comic book fantasy & been much more compelling & suitable for the mystery of tarot. Just my opinion. Tarotphelia

truthsayer	08 Jan 2003
i really appreciate this thread. i have questions and concerns about the quality of LS, too. jewel and i seem to have very similar experiences with LS decks. however, i have been blessed to find a LS deck i adore but therein lies the problem. the poor quality of the card stock keeps me from using this fragile deck as much as i would like. the one i am talking about is the neferteri. i don't know if this is one you feel is w/o soul but my soul interprets it and it's deep and meaningful for me. it's also spot on when i use it for others. the card stock is so incredibly thin and i can feel the gold foil indentations pressed into the cards on the back. i've thought about just buying another neferteri deck to put aside for later and using this deck when i want. i did buy the sphynx in a attempt to find a cheaper substitute for neferteri but i just don't connect to the sphynx in that magical way i do w/ it's sister. this is my burning question: what are the chances that the neferteri will ever be printed on better quality card stock? as it is, i seldom use the deck b/c of this issue. generally, LS decks have very good card stock. this is the only exception i've seen to the rule. i do think the fey deck will do well. it's unique, strong art, and has soul. i really enjoy having an accompanying book in english. i hope this is the beginning of a new trend for LS. it's very frustrating for me when i get a european deck i love but it comes w/ the book in a language other than english.

RiccardoLS	09 Jan 2003
It would be very difficult to define "quality". I do not refer to card quality or packaging... that's is the result of professionality. It's a technical skill. Looking at decks from the Publisher point of view I tend to judge as quality decks that required effort, attention and that came out from a true intuition or idea. Not using a LS title as example, I would consider "The Shining Tribe" a quality deck. While I didn't like the art, and many cards are higly subjective to Rachel Pollack own philosophy I could feel the extraordinary knowledge and effort behind every and each card. But even the "Teddy bears" popular deck may be quality. What I mean is that I would consider "quality" any deck done in the best way possible for the deck. It's not the theme, or the subject, but it's just the will behind it. If there is an "high pristess" card and the art does not give any nuance of wisdom... and the Publisher or Author says "who cares" that's not quality. Because it could have been done better. I think that one may like or not like any "quality" deck, but it's difficult one will ever receive an empty feeling. It seem I'm scared of empty decks :) [like when you open the box and find no cards in :)] Than I anderstand, admire, purely decorative decks, amusing decks, theme decks, cute decks, esoteric decks, meditative decks, exotic decks, etcetera decks... Ric

RiccardoLS	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer this is my burning question: what are the chances that the neferteri will ever be printed on better quality card stock? Are You sure You don't have a faulty copy? You're the first to mention bad card stock on Nefertari. --- Anyway Silvana Alasia (imho) is among "quality" authors. She knows she's doing Tarots and not Hamburgers. I think that shows... even to people that don't connect to her art style.

Lee	09 Jan 2003
Sorry to be off-topic, but just to address truthsayer's concerns, my copy of the Nefertari seems to be on normal card stock; however, as she mentioned, I can feel on the reverse side of the cards the indentantions from the gold printing on the front. Truth, are you sure the card stock is actually thinner than on other decks? I'm going from memory here, all my decks are packed up, but what I recall is normal thickness card stock. -- Lee

jmd	09 Jan 2003
I have been reflecting on the plethora of decks which have appeared especially over the past 20 or so years. Though US Games seems to have a lot to do with the sheer marketed (and profitable) variety of available decks, I wonder if something else is at play - which doesn't have to do with 'quality' as such. In the fifteenth century, individual hand-painted varieties became popular; in the sixteenth and 17th, expansions were made and experimentation occured with various quite amazing varieties (types such as representated by Sola Busca, Montegna &c); in the 18th century, a return and subsequent large variety of Marseilles-type decks were produced; in the 19th, the main variety to have emerged appears to have been Etteilla type decks; in the 20th, a return to Tarot (with modifications) appears to have been the norm, with especially Waite type decks. I wonder if part of the impulse is for a new 'standardised' form to emerge, with various struggles searching for both past 'true' expressions, discarding of non-Tarot products, and various attempts at new artistic renditions and forms within a stricter format - maybe, dare I suggest it, a very carefully balanced ... no I'll keep it for another time! What will have to be decided are those difficult questions about the numbering of various cards, the imagery of the pips, and the 'purity' of the impulse. The 'quality', it seems to me, will often be made on such determinations - and experimentation will continue for a while.

Demonesse	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS I was unsure wheter to create this topic. As usual I'm torn between my company loyalty and my personal feelings. But as LS may benefit from my presence on the Forum, it my also suffer some poor consequence of my suden mood changes :)Riccardo I admire your integrity and your commitment to your art as well as to deck buyers :) It's really nice to see someone strive to reach, or even surpass the limits of their ability in bringing images to life. Quality shows - in the art, stock, book binding and presentationn - everything. However, I think the "empty feeling" you get is also subjective - it also depends on whether the deck speaks to you as an individual. Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS And I see many "crap" decks skyrocket in the Tarot market. Why? That's because many decks are built just to be sold: nice colors, compelling titles, alluring books... Riccardo Which decks are these (whether LS or not)?

Jewel	09 Jan 2003
JMD your post really triggered something for me. I think one of the things that also affects the quality of the decks is that many creators are trying to fit too many systems within the tarot (i.e. astrology, qabalah, I-Ching, runes, etc.) While I enjoy this attempt at integration often, other times it totally does not make sense and for me personally affects what I consider quality of the deck. I find that most of the decks I consider quality may try to integrate one system or none, but when the creator starts incorporating as many systems as possible in the card it becomes overwhelming, distracting and detracting at times. My favorite deck, the Cosmic Tribe, does not strive to incorporate these other systems as part of the design, and I think that is part of what gives it such clarity for me. I can look and make connections if I want to, but the artist went for the "we are a cosmic tribe" message which I connected with immediately.

truthsayer	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Sorry to be off-topic, but just to address truthsayer's concerns, my copy of the Nefertari seems to be on normal card stock; however, as she mentioned, I can feel on the reverse side of the cards the indentantions from the gold printing on the front. Truth, are you sure the card stock is actually thinner than on other decks? I'm going from memory here, all my decks are packed up, but what I recall is normal thickness card stock. -- Lee yes, lee, you are on the right track of what i'm talking about. i just wish i didn't feel the indentations on the back of the cards. i see the indentations as a mark of not as good stock as other decks i have. i'm not trying to be insulting or anything like that. it's just a concern. i'm pretty sure the card stock is normal. okay my silver montegna and my visconti gold don't have the foil indentations like neferteri. the card stock seems stronger. that's what i'm using as a measuring stick. i agree about silvana alaysia. she's my favorite LS artist. i've liked most of her decks. i have her nerferteri, sphynx, and etruscan. i can tell she's done her research. when i hear she has a new deck coming out i always get excited. :)

Cerulean	09 Jan 2003
Getting back to LS Journey to the Orient...I believe that Riccardo felt alright about the 22 majors? The cross-cultural associations actually ring truer to me because I live in a world where the hopes for East-West interactions are a lot smoother than earlier generations. It is also the first tarot that I've seen where most of the depictions of the East and West are portrayed in the majors, at least, with equal attention. Or does the whole deck feel empty? It is true to my eyes there is some flatness to the painting style of some of the minors that makes for some strangeness to me. The Queen of Swords seems very silly. My copy has a long-nailed matriach and her eyes are slanted slits, a narrow look that isn't pleasant. Perhaps it is just me, but Chinese and Japanese family members just don't look like that to me. I think it is the artist style and my own thoughts, not intentionally meant to be ridiculous. If I stare closely at the print of this painting, I realize probably the flat painting style and lack of shadows just resulted in something that looks silly to my prejudiced eyes. Most likely, others who buy it will not care... There are also stylized Asian paintings where the eyes are no more than dots or lines and I like them---the Ukiyoe Tarot is very stylized and it is to me, my grandparental art-style tarot. I think if LS Journey to the Orient did have black backgrounds, I would be more inclined to look at this as a stylized print. And I know this is my opinion...

Demonesse	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki There are also stylized Asian paintings where the eyes are no more than dots or lines and I like them---the Ukiyoe Tarot is very stylized and it is to me, my grandparental art-style tarot. I think if LS Journey to the Orient did have black backgrounds, I would be more inclined to look at this as a stylized print. And I know this is my opinion... I wish I could get a better look at the Journey to the Orient to understand all this. The art STYLE is certainly not Oriental, (though I like the vivid colours) - so far, it seems like a highly idealized version of Oriental culture. To me, the worst tarot representation of Oriental culture would be the (pah) Feng Shui. The style of the Ukiyoe seems similar to the depictions on the few Japanese paintings that I possess. The Chinese Tarot is also stylized, but more authentic - like Mari said of the Ukiyoe, reminiscent of a 'grandparental art-style'.

brennamor	09 Jan 2003
I can appreciate Riccardo's comments about "empty" decks. I felt that way about Julian deBurgh's Celtic Tarot. The artwork was nice enough and it had lots of Celtic trappings but it didn't ring true to me. The card that most immediately pops into mind was the High Priestess. This was supposed to represent The Morrigan but the image showed a nice looking lady in a long blue dress - no ravens, no spears nothing. There was nothing about this card that brought The Morrigan to mind. It just seemed like someone wanted to cash in on the Celtic craze. To me this is different than decks that just don't connect. But it is such a letdown when you get all worked up about a deck only to be disappointed in the end.

Marie	09 Jan 2003
I was recently talking to an artist who was giving me a run down of her publishing experience. During the final phases many things were changed that she didn't want changed. She said that it was a big negotiation on so many points there were some that she felt she had to give in to, to reach a fair comprimise. A lot of the changes really commercialized the deck. The deck is out now and people seem to really like but the complaints I have seen about it I know are the things the publisher wanted changed and weren't the fault of the author. It makes me wonder how many decks published right now are being commercialized or are really just a co-ordinated effort of the creator who wants to share his vision and the publisher who wants to make a profit. These decks are really "dumbed down". I know there have to be some decks that appeal to newcomers, but why give them tarot light? Is that what they want? Or at least shouldn't there be some decks that don't have to conform? I know I was shocked when I heard that the Tarot of the Origins was not a good seller because I think it's really good. It probably sounds conceited of me, but I don't want my deck dombed down and commercialized. I really worry about that. I think a lot of what it has will be lost if it is covered with funky keywords and other things changed to make it more trendy. Maybe it wont get to be called the Mary-el tarot, maybe it will be called the Glowing Tribe Tarot or the Vision Seeker Tarot? Of course publishers need to make a profit and I totally understand that but maybe people are ready to buy the good stuff, if it was on the shelves? Oh, maybe I am being a bit moody too, I am on the edge of going into labor and am miserable with the flu:(

Cerulean	10 Jan 2003
Ms. Mary-El, I've long been an admirer of your paintings because what is fierce is truly so, what seems gentle is true as well. Whatever publisher is fortunate enough to pick up your work...I've got a catalog from a great artsy card firm called Amber Lotus in California...I'm thinking maybe if your work as single prints or cards go well, the book publisher would be FORCED to keep them as they should be. Best of blessings to you and the little one and the true artistry that you keep on developing.. Mari H.

faunabay	10 Jan 2003
Most LS decks seem to be more art decks than reading decks to me. Now remember that's MY OPINION. :) And regardless of what people think **ROFL** I don't usually keep many decks just for the art. I have quite a few decks (understatement LOL) but in a pinch I could read with just about all of them. I try! I really try! to connect with the LS decks, but don't seem to beable to accomplish this. I usually end up trading them. :( The two I do own right now are the Crystal and Nefertari. I can almost read with the Nefertari. LOL But the Crystal is a complete art deck for me. Now I know there are some LS decks people love so remember this is my opinion! :) I usually find most LS decks feel cold to me. They don't seem to have much depth or reading potential. Again I can't connect with any that I've tried (and that's been quite a few LOL). I do keep trying though. So maybe I'll find one in the future. :) I'm waiting to hear Jewel's opinion of the Fey deck. If she likes it I might try that one. :D And I can't wait for the mermaid deck to come out. Then there's the new animal one that I can't remember the name. :D Just my two cents about Lo Scarebeo decks and the depth Riccardo was talking/venting/asking about. :D

Kyrielle	10 Jan 2003
I think that's the Animal Lords Tarot, or something like that. From the pictures, it reminds me of Brian Jacques's Redwall books. Tarot of the Journey to the Orient is a bit of a puzzle to me. I like the majors, although they aren't my favorites, but the relevance of the scenes on the minors sometimes doesn't go with the meaning of the card. I gather they are scenes from the life/legend of Marco Polo, but I'm not familiar enough with this story for the scenes to have much meaning for me. Not to say they must resemble the RWS pictures, although some kind of do, but I like the scenes to resonate with the meaning of the card in some way. Lo Scarabeo's Tarot Art Nouveau is one I like, though purely as an art deck. I couldn't read well with it, but the quality of the art makes it worthwhile. TJO (I have to abbreviate -- that name is just too long!) has nice art, but nothing special. I don't know. Maybe it'll grow on me. That said, I have to say that the Fey is the best Lo Scarabeo deck I have seen. Great art, a fresh take on tradition, and pictures that do have soul to them. And it gives prominent billing to both author and artist. "Empty decks" -- great phrase for these decks that just don't hit you where they need to. -- Kyrielle

firemaiden	10 Jan 2003
Riccardo, perhaps you are suffering from the contrast between the two artists you have recently collaborated with-- I have never seen art in a tarot deck, or anywhere to be honest, that has such an immediate soul, and warmth as in the Fey cards. They really radiate with human joy, warmth, love, and fun, they do just what they promise, they create sensations and feelings, they give you an experience not just an idea, yet an experience leading one to many ideas, (I went on and on about it in the Yeah I got the Fey thread) -- that almost anything in comparison would look cold. I don't think the art of the Journey to the Orient is as bad as you think -- but certainly next to the Fey, the Journey to the Orient art appears to have less soul. I would really love to know which Scarabeo decks are disappointing you in sales. I know for example, that the tarot of the Imagination is a tremendously special and deep deck, with breathtaking artwork, and yet is somewhat "difficult" to fall in love with at first sight, because it is so challenging, and sometimes so dark. It is possible that a book that explores and mines the riches of this deck could boost the interest, if indeed this is one of the decks you have in mind. I think is a place in the world for "emptiness" also -- in a different mood it will all seem the opposite. When I am very sad, only really deep ponderous things seem like the real truth. When I am happy, light and frivolous things seem like the truth too...

firemaiden	10 Jan 2003
P.S. Even an "empty" image can sometimes carry great meaning for the beholder, in fact sometimes the emptier the better, for the image is in fact a "vessel". We are taught in opera not to "feel" the emotion of what we are singing, (of course some teach the opposite) because it interferes with the voice. The singer should just be the "vessel" or the conduit, the medium, and the audience should be the one experience the emotion. One of the most powerful performances of ballet I ever saw was in the film "La double vie de Véronique" -- it was the dying swan danced by a marionette! simply a wooden puppet, and yet it made me cry more than any live dancer! Why? The wood is empty -- somehow it is the viewer and of course the puppeteer who infuses the wood with emotion.... Just my thoughts---I don't know which decks in particular bother you for their emptiness -- I love all the Scarabeo decks (except the minors in the Celtic, but I wrote that already), but I rather suspect that to some, they speak volumes.

Emily	11 Jan 2003
I have only the one LS deck, the Crystal tarot - it reminds me of the Thoth and I too think its an art deck but I can read with it. I have a few unconventional tarot decks, The Crow's Magick, the Enchanted, rohrig on order with these decks I apply R/W meanings combined with what I get off the cards, sometimes there really isn't enough of original symbolism on the cards but there is always something there to work on. I know there are 'fluff' decks around but I do think that it is to the individual to find what works for them, and just as long as the card stock is good and the quality of the cards match my requirements then I'm happy. :)

Marie	11 Jan 2003
Hi Mari, Thank you so much! And I already found the website for Amber Lotus and will check them out. BTW, I heard you were also at BATS and somehow we never crossed paths there...(sorry for the off topic). Feeling much better with no urge to complain today:) Marie

Cerulean	11 Jan 2003
Not exactly best-sellers but quality tarots worth another look? Could Riccardo and others suggest LS or perhaps other undervalued tarots that beg for more understanding? The problems that I sometimes have with beautiful art theme tarots is unfamiliarity with the topic presented. I don't know if people know this, but I've tried to review a variety of decks. And still I haven't been able to write about more than half of them. One of my favorite picks would be the Dante Tarot by Berti and Serio, published by LS. I hope Berti's book will be published soon, because the 'screenplay' for Dante idea in a tarot is wonderful. I'm still going through Berti's website with the appropriate cantos listed and my Dante resources (I have many and have listed the best in another thread for those interested). Students like myself need to align and organize how to delve into these decks. Thanks, Mari H. Most of the time I am writing 'I'm just starting to investigate this topic...'

Teal	12 Jan 2003
I haven't read through all the posts yet, but this question is dying to be asked and I can't wait to read the posts through for fear I might forget to ask it. Maybe someone else has already asked and been answered and in that case, just ignore my question's redundancy. But here's the question------If you're the author of the deck, Ricardo, then how is it that some artist was hired to do the art work without your approval? I mean, I thought authoring a deck meant it was your creation through and through by at least including your working with the artist. Does Lo Scarabaeo have people like you who "author" decks by saying----okay, I want to author a deck called "The Irish Laundry Tarot" and I'll make the following names for the various 78 tarot cards. And that's what's called "authoring" the deck, which is then sent to artists to illustrate who have never met the "author" or talked with him to get a sense of what he's got in mind and who just make some art work up for each of the 78 cards from THEIR idea of what an Irish Laundry would be like, then send it off to be printed and launched on the naive public like me who thought there was more to authoring than that. Maybe that's why there are so many darned theme decks that take an unwary tarotist's money but turn out to be so useless to read with. I'm a writer, and if I were to "author" a book, my readers could darn well count on it that I'd be there through every phase of it including the art work used! How else would I be considered the author?

firemaiden	12 Jan 2003
Yeah. majorly important question Teal, I'd like to know the answer to that too, Riccardo!

Lee	12 Jan 2003
You know, Riccardo, it sounds to me like what you're really saying is that you're irritated at publishers for publishing decks you don't like. :) -- Lee

baba-prague	12 Jan 2003
I've been reading this thread and wasn't sure whether to jump in. It's more difficult when you are doing a tarot yourself (as Marie says) as obviously it means that there is a reluctance to "diss" other people's work. But I just felt I had to say that I don't think that the issue here is simply about whether you like something or not. I agree with Marie, it's about questioning this trend towards dumbing down and commercialisation - and also, as Brennamor said, the increasing trend for "cashing in" on fashions for things like Celtic symbolism (I'm Irish and most of the "Celtic" tarots make me cringe - they are about as Irish or Celtic as Irish theme pubs or Riverdance - the real thing is not all about prettiness or quaintness or Celtic knot patterns on everything, it goes a little deeper). So I think the basic point Riccardo made at the start of this thread is very valid and important. There should be a desire for quality - NOT just quality of card stock and printing but, much more importantly, quality of concept and artwork and knowledge about the use and history of tarot. As the man says, at some level it is about "soul". It is really easy to produce "brand extension" tarots like Lord of the Rings, and why not? They will make money and I'm sure someone will enjoy them. But it's important that these very commercial productions are not at the expense of work that is actually trying to do something of quality and of more than short term commercial value. However, I also agree with Riccardo that it's hard to do much about this. Popular rubbish IS popular - and there is a place for it (we don't all need to be terribly highbrow and serious all the time) In the end though, I really support what he is saying: "I think it is important that the community of customers makes an effort to require quality from the Publishers and authors. Less decks... but better decks. There is only one way to get this: be sure to spend money on quality decks." So my thanks to Riccardo for saying this. I realise it must have been difficult but I think it's great he did so. Best wishes, Karen

HudsonGray	12 Jan 2003
But that's what's part of the problem, 'Better' in whose eyes? I've been on a yahoo list that everyone focused around the original tarot versions, dating back prior to the 1800's & for that group, ONLY those decks were worthwhile. Then you look at some of the artist concept ones like what Peterson is doing in Germany (can't remember her first name) and other decks like Marie's and Blue Moon, and you'll have people point to those and say 'too different, too far from the concepts' of the basic originals. But they're not. Some only look at the Thoth & Rider decks as worthy of being used........... Then at the other end are the Whimsical, the Hello Kitty & Halloween which you could say are fluff, but a whole different group of people swear by those & say they're wonderful. For them, the quality is there because they can read with them. So does that mean the 'unreadable' decks like the Terrestrial tarot, the Lord of the Rings & that dog deck only showing breeds of dogs are the junk? Everyone's got their own ideas of what's quality, what's fluff, what's totally useless & only meant for collectors to buy, but you'll always find people who say the Witch's Tarot worked great when the Thoth never connected, or the Cat People Tarot is totally unreadable but the Fey went right to the heart of the matter, etc. Part of quality is whether or not it works for a person. If you love the originals, you'll never be happy with anything developed after 1800. If you gravitate towards Celtic maybe that one fits like a glove. It still all comes down to what works for the individual I think. If you are heavy into symbolism & the Quaballa & elementals & astrology why would you think Hello Kitty Tarot is anything but fluff? It's a matter of personal perspective on a lot of it. Some people do connect with the dummed down versions. Beginners hopefully advance through several decks & make personal choices on what works for them at each level, so I can see a reason for some of the popularity of the commercial decks. Not everyone starts out as a history expert or knows they'll be using tarot 18 years from now so to start with the standards & branch out. Let the publishers make their money, but let them know, too, what you want in decks so they can know there's a ground swell looking for something with substance. They need to know both ends of the spectrum.

Teal	12 Jan 2003
Well why don't we all start writing to the companies that crank out these decks and, as tarotists, let them know that we don't appreciate the way it's being done and that we want better methods employed in creating the decks, with more participation from the author throughout the process and more acquiesence by the artist to the original vision of the author? Ricardo solved a mystery for me------and that's the answer to the question of why some of the most wonderful (potentially) decks promise one thing and give another. Card stock be hanged------you could put some of these decks on solid gold bars and they wouldn't be useful to any really serious tarotist. The reason they seem not to carry any lasting merit is because they're created without any cohesiveness from start to finish. The big business that turns them out is after money-----they may not even know tarot from any other viewpoint than that it's a growing trend and they can cash in on it, especially by appealing to special interests. And collecting is another thing. It's great to be a collector, but think about those beanie babies, pokeymon cards, and Avon bottles. The companies create hype that makes people think they're going to have something of great value if they collect------well, a collection is only worth something to someone who wants it, and it's been my experience that nobody is going to want huge beanie baby collections, for instance. While finding some obscure deck that may have been published or created by hand on some out of the ordinary theme may bring you a valuable collectible, I don't honestly think most of the theme decks being cranked out now are going to ever be prized and valuable simply because----look at us all------we're snagging all these decks for their novelty, but we can't read with them and there are so many that are getting bought up and "cherished" to keep them nice that they're never going to really be that "rare". Rare items are valuable because they truly ARE rare-------and rare means you can't find them hardly ever. Neener, neener------I've got my raincoat on so all those rotten tomatoes I may get aimed at me over this post won't hurt at all. ROFL Seriously, I'm as bad as anyone else at collecting these darned decks, but I've finally learned that if a deck is themed, beware! It's probably not very useful. Thank heaven for this forum! If we heed what we learn here, it will save us a bunch of money, time and effort.

Teal	12 Jan 2003
Yes, Ricardo, thank you for posting on this. And if they fire you for expressing it here, we'll all send you all our soda cans to help you survive till you can work at a place that really appreciates you! Here's a hug! Teal

truthsayer	12 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray Then you look at some of the artist concept ones like what Peterson is doing in Germany (can't remember her first name) . [/b] i think you are thinking about margarete peterson. *************************************************** recent postings remind me of something we were discussing in my creative writing class. "what is real literature? what is the difference b/t literature and formula stories?" i think one of the most important testament to either literature or tarot cards is if it stands the test of time. there are a lot of theme decks out now that i like but i don't expect to see lots of reprints. as much as i like the legend arthurian, i doubt it has the staying power of a marseille, rws, or thoth deck.

HudsonGray	12 Jan 2003
YES, it was the one done by Margarete Peterson--it's really rich in images for me. Finding it outside Europe is pretty rare though, and the book that comes with it is ONLY available written in German, which I don't read. (Sigh) Hmm, test of time. I can think of one deck that qualifies as a 'theme' deck that everyone still is looking for--the majors only Cat Tarot. Limited run, no reprint, ebay has high prices, and people post on this board looking for it all the time. So there are exceptions to everything. But the idea of writing to the 3 or 4 tarot publishers (there are that few), yes, that might just do some good.

Osher	13 Jan 2003
I suppose though there is one thing that we should bear in mind, and that is money. Maybe theme decks, or decks where the art is more important than the suggstions, are not your cup of tea. However, they do sell. This makes them cheaper. OK, so you might be prepared to pay more for a less popular deck (and many of us are). Yet, at least we have choice. Also, these commercial decks do at least keep the card companies, the tarot shops and so on in business. It just means that we need to filter through more decks to find the ones we want. Which is a small price to pay for the low prices and wide range we have. Anyway, sometimes these commerical decks (Casanova, for example) can be good fun! Speaking of card stock, my Manara cards, I'm finding a few cards begining to split, and I've hardly used them. Nothing much yet, but I'm being more careful. The AGM cards are much better card stock I find.

Teal	13 Jan 2003
No, it's NOT a small price to pay and I think that's one of the reasons we're griping a little bit here. It's darned expensive to buy tarot decks! $16 on up for a deck of cards is high! And especially when the place you buy from doesn't let you open the deck, search through it, shuffle it, etc. so you buy a deck and you don't find out till you've gotten it home and are stuck with it that it's pretty unsatisfactory and that you can't connect with it or use it. And sometimes you find that not only can you not take it back for a refund, you can't even trade it to anyone here on the forum because it's one you couldn't PAY someone to take. LOL But then there's the happy story ending, like me and the Native American deck.

Lee	13 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Teal But then there's the happy story ending, like me and the Native American deck. But then there's others who think the Native American deck is absolutely dreadful... My point is, as HudsonGrey has said, this is all completely subjective. The only reliable measure a publishing company has of the quality of a deck is how many copies it sells. I think contacting the publishing companies wouldn't accomplish anything. What could they do that would satisfy you? Promise to publish more high-quality decks? High quality in whose eyes? The Whimsical Tarot and the Halloween Tarot have similar outlooks. But I think the Whimsical deck is very poorly conceived, while the Halloween is very well done. Meanwhile, the Whimsical deck is some people's favorite. Are they wrong? Of course not, their opinion is as valid as mine. If a deck is a good seller, and many people use it, who are we to say that that deck is of poor quality and the publisher shouldn't publish it? I think there's only one recommended course of action: if you don't like a deck, don't buy it. If you're not sure whether or not you like it, there are plenty of resources on the Internet (including Aeclectic) where you can see at least some scans of the deck before you buy it. -- Lee

firemaiden	13 Jan 2003
Actually part of what got me interested in tarot in the first place was just the pretty pictures with bright colors :D. So if it takes a bit of fluff to lure in new tarotholic addicts, hey what's the harm? It's all so cute and harmless in the beginning, then we get in deeper and deeper ... for better or for worse!! :eek:

HudsonGray	13 Jan 2003
I don't buy a deck sight unseen anymore, I type in the name of the deck & do a search on www.google.com and I'm pretty much guaranteed that within 8 pages of entries I can see between 30 & 70% of the cards. Some sites even show the entire deck in thumbnail form. Average deck price is now $20, so $16 is low! For book/deck sets they're about $35. One just needs to adjust their 'low' end prices occasionally. I really doubt there'll be much under $10 except mini decks, another reprint of the Rider deck, or those Barnes & Noble gift sets. BUT you can always keep an eye out on ebay. Sometimes a good deal comes along. Just factor in the postage costs too.

Jewel	14 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I think there's only one recommended course of action: if you don't like a deck, don't buy it. If you're not sure whether or not you like it, there are plenty of resources on the Internet (including Aeclectic) where you can see at least some scans of the deck before you buy it. I second this course of action. Also, you can post a thread here on Aeclectic in the deck section and get all kinds of feedback. I agree that there are a lot of decks out there without "soul", and I would like to see higher quality concepts, but as Hudson Gray said what I deem a quality concept may mean nothing to you. Ricccardo all I can say is that if it is in your power do so, strive for the decks you author to be of what you consider quality. Be true to your artistic and creative self. If you want feedback you know we are always here ;)

HudsonGray	14 Jan 2003
There's a Whimsical Tarot for sale for $5 plus $2.50 shipping on ebay right now--just one sample of a good deal! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19271&item=2906182564

Teal	14 Jan 2003
I agree, Lee. I thought the Native American deck was dreadful for a long time, too.

RiccardoLS	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Teal I haven't read through all the posts yet, but this question is dying to be asked and I can't wait to read the posts through for fear I might forget to ask it. But here's the question------If you're the author of the deck, Ricardo, then how is it that some artist was hired to do the art work without your approval? Hi again, I've been away for a week (I've been in Rio to see my newbord nephew. And there it was summer!!! :) ), so I couldn't follow the thread I started. Now I promise to follow up. Dear Teal, you must consider that I'm not primarly an author, rather I'm the editor, even if I do everything an author does. Usually it is my boss caming to me, and saying... this is the idea, this is the artist: do your best. So, while I may have influence, and while I may get credit (for the good or the bad) I rarely decide. And I may never say: my way or no way. :)

RiccardoLS	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Teal I...which is then sent to artists to illustrate who have never met the "author" or talked with him to get a sense of what he's got in mind and who just make some art work up for each of the 78 cards from THEIR idea of what an Irish Laundry would be like, then send it off to be printed and launched on the naive public like me who thought there was more to authoring than that. Maybe that's why there are so many darned theme decks that take an unwary tarotist's money but turn out to be so useless to read with. This is a good definition of one kind of "not-quality" decks. Those kind of decks does exist. But how could You fault Publishers, if those decks cost less and sell more? Sometimes - someone told me it was routinely done by U.S.Games, and I know of most older LS decks as well - it is just the matter to go to an artist and give him a Rider Waite deck of Tarot, a theme, and then tell him to interpret. And there it is Your Tarot deck. Other times, there is an authorship that goes a bit beyond that, but not really so. Sometimes the artist knows exactly what he's doing, and spend a terrible effort to create Tarots. Sometimes it's not so. It's just another illustration... and being them professionals, they know how to make them look good. But when neither the concept author (if any), nor the artist, nor the Publisher give any more than the minimum requirement You have... well... a "minimum requirement" deck. I think it is a great responsability of the Tarot Community as a whole the fact that there are not enough tools to help the customer recognize a "quality" deck from a "minimum requirement" deck, before he buys it. We, as a Community, should create such tools, or force the Publishers to provide them. (we should just think out, how such a tool may be created.) Ric p.s. just a side note. Quote: ...but turn out to be so useless to read with. I dont' think all decks should be meant to be read with. Or at least not always in the conventional sense or with conventional metodologies. (imho. My anarchic self, speaking) :)

RiccardoLS	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Riccardo, perhaps you are suffering from the contrast between the two artists you have recently collaborated with I don't know :), but I think it's just that I can see the strings. The decks I worked recently had been: the Etruscan: in its apparent semplicity, Silvana Alasia has a great sensibility for what she was doing. I would consider the deck: simple, but quality. the Fey: that's the best deck I ever worked on. But I feel not objective on it. the Journey to the Orient: I wrote very very short guidelines for the Majors. And I spent a few pages explaining what should have been the background concept (and I think they were read, and dismissed as irrelevant to the actual illustration - but that's not the point as Toppi did the same to Manfredi Toraldo when creating the Origins deck. But very few decks are as powerful as the Origins). I think the point was: what was the artist think when painting the High Priestess? Maybe wisdom? Maybe knowledge? Or parhaps he was just thinking about a women with a funny hat and a curtain on her back? The Vampires (work in progress): it won't be near as close as the Fey, but me and the artist are working very closely togheter. The Animal Lords: I mainly do a supervision work. But the artist is doing his best. I think it will be a light hearted deck, not very deep, but that keeps up to any expectations. I don't think people will be disappointed after buying it. So I have many different experiences. I don't think I'm biased on an emotional term, but rather that I can see the "strings". Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I would really love to know which Scarabeo decks are disappointing you in sales. Origins, Imagination and Dante, mainly. But I understand the reason why they don't sell well. It cashes more "Greek Marriage" than "Mulholland Drive". My feelings of disconfort cames from how well some "minimum requirment" decks sells. :( Ric

RiccardoLS	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Teal Yes, Ricardo, thank you for posting on this. And if they fire you for expressing it here, we'll all send you all our soda cans to help you survive till you can work at a place that really appreciates you! Here's a hug! Teal Thanks, but I just hope I didn't give the wrong impression. I dare criticize LS because while It may seem strange, I prefer to criticize myself, rather than point a finger in accusation to others. Also, as one of the LS crew, I can't reasonably finger a deck of the concurrence and say: "bad deck" :) So I'm stuck to self criticism, in order to keep some integrity :) What I observe in the "quality" of decks is not a result of my experience in LS, it's an overall feeling. And I think (imho) LS is much better than others. Ric

RiccardoLS	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee You know, Riccardo, it sounds to me like what you're really saying is that you're irritated at publishers for publishing decks you don't like. :) Ah ah ah, I am, You know. :) You got me. Bad Publishers, bad Publishers! :) Ric

RiccardoLS	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness ISpeaking of card stock, my Manara cards, I'm finding a few cards begining to split, and I've hardly used them. Nothing much yet, but I'm being more careful. The AGM cards are much better card stock I find. LS and AGM prints both in Carta Mundi, and use the same card quality. Even U.S.Games prints there ar least part of their stock. Riccardo

Jewel	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS I think it is a great responsability of the Tarot Community as a whole the fact that there are not enough tools to help the customer recognize a "quality" deck from a "minimum requirement" deck, before he buys it. We, as a Community, should create such tools, or force the Publishers to provide them. This is a fabulous idea! I am sure we could definetly post it here on Aeclectic at least. Perhaps we could publish a bit of tarot research ... Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS I dont' think all decks should be meant to be read with. Or at least not always in the conventional sense or with conventional metodologies. (imho. My anarchic self, speaking) :) I absolutly agree with this. Personally I also like to use decks for meditation, personal & spiritual development, and writting short stories. But for me, the quality of the deck (concept, etc) need to be good in order for them to work effectively for these purposes.

Jeannette	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS I think it is a great responsability of the Tarot Community as a whole the fact that there are not enough tools to help the customer recognize a "quality" deck from a "minimum requirement" deck, before he buys it. We, as a Community, should create such tools, or force the Publishers to provide them. I couldn't agree with you more, Riccardo. We get all sorts of messages from people at Tarot Garden, asking how they can find out more information before they buy a tarot, to make sure it has the quality and subject matter that they are truly looking for. They are often frustrated, and feel as though they're often "buying in the dark." Um, BTW... when will we be receiving those sample images from the upcoming Lo Scarabeo releases to post on the Tarot Garden website? :D -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

faunabay	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee If you're not sure whether or not you like it, there are plenty of resources on the Internet (including Aeclectic) where you can see at least some scans of the deck before you buy it. -- Lee I do this all the time and it helps. BUT it's not the same as holding a deck in your hands and flipping through it. There has been quite a few times when I've seen a deck on the internet, got all excited about it, ordered it, and when I got it I was disappointed. IMO scans on the computer, while helpful, just don't tell the whole story. That's one of my main problems with buying decks -- in most stores you can't look through the whole deck before buying. And it's just a completely different thing to flip through it with your own two little hands! :) I feel we'd have much happier buyers in the long run if that was commonplace with tarot stores.

fairyhedgehog	16 Jan 2003
Looking at decks online, you can't tell the true colours, as they are different using lights and using pigments. You can't tell thickness of paper, flexibility, texture, whether they are shiny or matt or the general quality of finishing of the edges etc. All of these affect how the deck looks and feels when you hold it in your hands. It's also often difficult to keep the size in mind, as all deck scans tend to be shown as a similar size. These are the kind of things I like to see in a review. But even then it's a bit hit and miss.

firemaiden	16 Jan 2003
Riccardo, is there a book to the Imagination Deck?

HudsonGray	17 Jan 2003
"But when neither the concept author (if any), nor the artist, nor the Publisher give any more than the minimum requirement You have... well... a "minimum requirement" deck." Well, it still all comes down to the fact that people will 'vote' with their money. If it sells in 2 years with good reviews & raves, people like it. If it doesn't sell, it disappears. It's up to the buyer to get what they want, so they've got to do the research. That's commercialism/consumerism.

Lee	17 Jan 2003
I'm probably just being dense, but I've been wracking my brains and I can't come up with any decks of the type Riccardo describes, which were just sort of cranked out to order without being the product of any particular vision, and which were successful sellers. I realize Riccardo, since he works for a publisher, is reluctant to actually name any decks, but perhaps someone else could provide some examples? I can think of some decks like this, but it seems to me that they were not particularly succesfull, for example the Unicorn Tarot (now, surely someone will say the Unicorn is their favorite!). -- Lee

The Quality decks or not? thread was originally posted on 08 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.