Thoth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Aoife	17 Jan 2003
OK, I know this is probably going to sound stupid, but........ I am really frightened by this deck. More than twenty years ago I was getting well into tarot. And then I bought Thoth. I can remember my readings were definitely triggering something deeper [and most definitely darker] with this deck. And then two very clear readings. One, a friend's partner's unplanned fourth pregnancy straight after an unplanned third. The other, the death of a friend's younger brother in a fall from scaffolding. [i hasten to add the readings were not this specific but were sending out very powerful messages which correlated closely with subsequent events] I told neither friend what I had felt from the reading. I was getting frightened....and then more frightened and eventually asked my partner to take the cards away from me. I've said in other threads that I now believe I was not ready for tarot at that time. My return to tarot many years later has not been shadowed by fear. I'd like to finally put to rest my fear of Thoth and I've contemplated buying it just to handle the cards and convince myself they're only images on cardboard. But I don't want to!!!!! Please advise me.

Jewel	17 Jan 2003
Aoife we have had some really good threads about the Thoth in the Tarot Deck Forum. The issue of fear and this deck has come up quite often in those threads, as have some good articles and opinions on the deck. I highly encourage you to do a search in the Tarot Deck forum and read through them. Fear is a very personal emotion ... have you been able to pin point what exactly it is that frightens you about this deck? what exactly you felt the deck was triggering? perhaps answering some of these questions for yourself can also help you in recognizing what it is about this deck that makes you feel that way and then overcome it or stay away from the deck.

Khatruman	17 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife OK, I know this is probably going to sound stupid, but........ I am really frightened by this deck. ... I've contemplated buying it just to handle the cards and convince myself they're only images on cardboard. But I don't want to!!!!! Please advise me. Wow, synchronicity again.. I was just doing a search for stuff here about the Portal Tarot that I just got and here you are addressing some things that I found in this thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7379&perpage=10&highlight=Portal%20and%20Tarot&pagenumber=1 Maybe this thread might help.. especially the post by dajax, who is one of the creators of the Portal, which is influenced by her using the Thoth. Peace!

Aoife	17 Jan 2003
Jewel, I tried a search but it came up with so much I ended up scrolling very quickly through just looking for the red highlighted text so I probably missed much. I've just gone back and refined the search to 'Thoth and fear' and it's given me a much more manageable list. If I can just trouble everyone with a bit more detail. I've just bought 'The Atavist Tarot' because I liked the artwork on the cover of the sealed box but my heart sank when I got it home and discovered it follows the Thoth theme. I really want to explore this deck but it feels pointless if I'm not willing/able to understand more about Thoth. My original post was part driven by annoyance about this but I'm also forced to acknowledge that I have still not laid to rest past fear. It's in my nature to challenge myself to face my fears but this is different. On reflection of course, I realise that I am trying to run before I can walk!

Aoife	17 Jan 2003
I'm sorry, I think I'm being a real pain and I know I should think this through more before posting, but...........I really want to work through this and it would be wonderful not to have to do it alone. I wonder if ......back in the 70s there was little written material [intelligible to people like me anyway] and there was no communities such as this [accessible to me]. I can remember, when I was afraid, having no one to to talk to about it who wouldn't have thought I was going crazy. So I have never talked about it to anyone - and perhaps more importantly, I have never consciously talked about it to myself. Anyway, back to....I wonder if in my innocence/ignorance I had unwittingly tapped into left/right brain thinking [i never remember which] and that was what frightened me because in those days I wouldn't have had the concepts or language to express what was happening [and clearly i still don't!]. All of this would account for why I am finding it next to impossible to 'tune out' lately. I feel I've got a block - and it's there because I'm afraid of the same thing happening again. "So what are you doing here", I hear you ask? I'm here because I truly want to tap into whatever potential I have. "So what do I most fear", I ask myself? I fear that if I can access my intuitive self my world will change forever. "Well, isn't that what you want? Yes, but I still have to function in the material world. I work in the field of conflict resolution and my days are spent with angry, heartbroken people and it's my job to try to help them move on. "Well, if you're working with greater insight and intuition, surely that's more helpful? Yes, but...... and here's the crux, How do I prevent psychic/intutive [can't think of the right expression] OVERLOAD!!! You know those reality TV shows, Big Brother and the ilk have always been an anathema to me. And I realise that in a way I am exposing myself to so many critical eyes. At least that thought has brought a smile to my miserable face. Thank you to everyone who's ploughed through my posts, Eve

Jewel	17 Jan 2003
Aoife ~hugs~ its OK :) ... and as long as you are here at Aeclectic you won't be alone in working through this ... we have all kinds of opinions. Personally I like the Thoth deck, and have learned to like it because the deck I use (Cosmic Tribe - you could not use this one with clients ;)) is Thoth based. In the beggining I found the Thoth intimidating because of the symbolism and imagery though ... I was overwhelmed and insecure but not afraid of it. Based on what I have read from your posts, your fear does not seem to be in any way related to Crowly, but to the use of your own intuition. The Thoth apparently really taps into that for you (as does your new deck). You want to get past this but are not sure how ... hmmmmm ... I see your dilema and frustration. I think in order to work through this you will really need to pin point why you fear your intuition being right. The root cause of that fear. I know this might not be helpful, but it is the only advice I have. I do wish you luck with this, and you have my support.

AmounrA	17 Jan 2003
Hello, Perhaps 20 years ago the deck came to help, unfortunately in a time of troubles. The deck reflected this. It did not cause it. The Thoth deck in my mind scares many because it does have a power, and does work. It is however not malignant, and I have found it always to be trustworthy, honest and wise. I would urge you to look at the lover’s card in the Thoth. No jinxed deck has a card this beautiful in its ranks:-) It’s like the thing about seeing a plane33 crash in a dream...the next day plane 33 crashes in reality. Did your dream see the future, or did it generate the crash? Personally I would go with the former, it picked up a major ripple within consciousness that spread backwards and forwards in time...something tarot decks are meant to do :-)

Aoife	18 Jan 2003
your responses have been so helpful. Jewel, the ~hugs~ mattered so much - thank you! I'm about to post a reading and my interpretation about all of this in the appropriate forum but before I do, Quote "Perhaps 20 years ago the deck came to help, unfortunately in a time of troubles" AmournA My first reaction was, no, it was a particularly good time. I felt happy and secure in the early days of what has proved to be a long lasting relationship and my career had taken off in the direction I wanted. But then I realised ..... at the time I was working in a home/school on one site for kids who had been taken away from their parents by the authorities. The depths of distress and abuse these kids had suffered can only be imagined and the place was rife with conflict, fear and distress. The building itself had previously been a convent and the set up had been run by nuns until controversy had caused it to be taken over the the state authorities. There were places in the building where it was still possible to see messages of pain and anger scratched deeply into the walls. The readings I mentioned took place in a member of staff's flat [apartment] on site. On reflection the energies in the fabric of the building alone must have been phenomenal. I then moved on to realise that my current place of work is also showing strange effects. A much-loved Christian colleague often speaks of the pain and anger our clients bring into the building being an ideal feeding ground for evil. We as workers protect ourselves with the power of our close and supportive relationships [we always work in pairs] and we are extremely close as a group, having worked together for more than ten years. The building is divided into two; our offices are adequately warm/cool as required but the rooms in which we meet clients are extremely cold [winter] or stiffling [summer]. We've been in this building for just over a year and the heating engineer is forever here. No reason can be found for the heating/air conditioning problem. I realise I've digressed far away from the original title of the thread. I'm not experienced enough here to know I should deal with going off at a tangent. To those I have irritated, I'm sorry.

firemaiden	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife OK, I know this is probably going to sound stupid, but........ I am really frightened by this deck. Aoife: can you put the fear more into words? Fear is a sense of danger --- can you identify what you feel the dangers might be for you?

Aoife	18 Jan 2003
Firemaiden, thank you. I remember the deck had an Art Deco feel - lots of that architecture where I live, always felt uncomfortable, intimidated by it - cold and linear. Decided I have to look at the deck again - go back to decks list and scroll through all the purple text [i've looked at all the decks before] and there, alone and white as the light of day is Thoth. [from my notes]..... the're stunningly beautiful, hypnotic, breathtaking. Bottom left corner - has to be the Priestess...draws me right in.....have to remind myself to breathe! Almost a physical reaction to these images. Getting a strong sense of discomfort from ancient Egyptian imagery. Always been terrified of Ancient Egyptian stuff .... fainted with fear as a child at museum [and not a fearful child]. Oh, this is weird - could this be something from past life? My ancestors are Celtic - of that I'm convinced but I've just bought the Atavist Tarot - that's what started all of this off. Perhaps that's the point it's trying to tell me - we all ultimately originate from other ancestral paths. Got to look further - another site to see full deck......they're all so stunning. I really want this deck but I still feel very anxious and I have to bear in mind Marion and Moongold's takes on my spread about this. Take it slowly, ensure I'm protected/grounded [still not good at this - too eager to get on] and lighten up. My cards recently keep telling me to lighten up! Decision: I'm going out now to a different bookstore. If the deck is there, I'm meant to buy it. If not, then I'm meant to wait. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to get this deck now ...... or later. Thank you all so much Eve

firemaiden	18 Jan 2003
And if I said past lives are out of bounds for explanations? Then what might you say?

firemaiden	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife ...and convince myself they're only images on cardboard. . Crowley wanted you to see the cards as living beings! You wrote you sort of predicted, although not that specifically:...<< the death of a friend's younger brother in a fall from scaffolding.>> This obviously would have been terribly traumatic! I wouldn't be surprised if in your subconscious you somehow fear that you might have caused the accident by summoning the energy in the cards. That would be a frightening thought indeed!

Aoife	18 Jan 2003
I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent, perceptive woman. All of you who have responded to me have very gently and supportively pointed out the obvious and boy, was I determined not to face it. I'm now feeling slightly embarrassed but also deeply relieved. And so I can now say with a powerful sense of relief and certainty: I was not responsible for that young man's death. Nothing that I did caused his death to happen Nothing that I 'knew' could have prevented it If I had known enough to, I would have done all that I could to have prevented it. I do not believe that the tarot cards caused the subsequent chain of events I do now believe that my fear has been based on an unacknowledged inner fear that I may have borne some responsibility There is therefore no reason for me to feel that I am in any way responsible or to blame, so I can now release the fear. This has been a deeply cathartic experience for me. Truth of the matter is that I very much fit the mould of the 'wounded therapist' and I have come not to expect help to come my way other than through the support of my colleagues. But your supportive interventions have given me far more than I can express in words. Sorry for going over the top, but I am most deeply grateful to you. Eve

firemaiden	18 Jan 2003
That is wonderful Aoife/Eve, congratulations!!

Dajax	23 Jan 2003
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Aoife OK, I know this is probably going to sound stupid, but........ I am really frightened by this deck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I love the Thoth. When I first made it's acquaintance, the Devil slid out of the pack into my lap (I was sitting in the car). At the time, I was in the very early stages of coming to terms with being 'mentally ill'....I will be honest, I was addicted to the pain of it. In many ways, I still am...as it still likes to remind me. That was the Thoth's first message to me: Get over it. I think that when people find that they are frightened by the Thoth, it is because the deck is blunt. It cuts through any layers of unconscious self-deceipt and forces you to see yourself for who you really are. The Thoth will forever remain the deck closest to my spirit...as it always tells me the exact 'truth' I need to hear, no matter whether I want to hear it or not. I also like to remind people that the Thoth is not just Crowley's. It is as much Lady Frieda Harris's creation. She is the artist. She put her spirit and passion into the deck as much as Crowley did, if not more. As I have said in the past, I did not know who he was when I first encountered this deck. I responded immediately to the art...to the way she gave 'voice' to his ideas. The deck has that kind of impact on me...it's brutally honest, but the way that honesty manifests in my life, is always beautiful and strangly gentle. Working with David on the Portals, is just one example. I tried to read Crowley's Book of Thoth and I will be quite frank, I think he was 'mentally ill'. His book reads like manic-depression. Reading it was rather painful...a flashback to old modes of thinking. In hindsight, perhaps that's one reason I also related immediately to the Thoth . I guess my point, is to remember that the Thoth is a collaboration of two creative people. One was slightly 'disturbed', the other tempered his vision with her own sanity. That's how I 'feel' the Thoth. It's the best of both worlds (insanity for all of it's ugliness possesses immense potential for extraordinary beauty). AND my illness and my life's journey has taught me that nothing, absolutely nothing, has power over you, unless you let it. The Thoth only has power in my life because I needed and invited what it held, into my life. I needed Truth as a Sword - I got the Thoth. (Have I mentioned that I just love that deck!!) Just my 2 cents! Off to look at my William Blake (which I got a month ago and haven't had time to really work with) AND my Tarot of the Spirit, which is an absolutely AMAZING deck, reminiscent of Thoth...but oh, so much gentler.

firemaiden	23 Jan 2003
Thank you Traci, for this beautiful and empassioned tribute to the Thoth, and to Lady Frieda Harris. It gives me a wonderful feeling. Your take on Crowley, that he was mentally ill, is fascinating, and sort of pops the balloon of his power to scare, so to speak. From now on I will think of this deck as beautiful art by sane Lady Harris. love Firemaiden

Minos	27 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife I've said in other threads that I now believe I was not ready for tarot at that time. My return to tarot many years later has not been shadowed by fear. I'd like to finally put to rest my fear of Thoth and I've contemplated buying it just to handle the cards and convince myself they're only images on cardboard. But I don't want to!!!!! Please advise me. Hi Eve, Take a deep breath. ;) If you don't want to use Thoth, that's okay. If you do, and you want to get over how reputedly 'dark' it is, pick out the ace, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 9 of cups, the Sun, Star, and Empress, and look at them for a while. For me, these are the most "sweetness and light" cards in any deck, period. If you don't want to buy the deck, you could just look at them here: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/2110/ That page also has comments on all the cards by people who use Thoth, and you'll see that they all get plenty of non-dark messages every day. Then take a look at this picture of Frieda Harris: http://www.villarevak.org/g_bio/xcr_har.jpg She's on the far right. Looks like a nice lady. Heck, even Aleister Crowley looks more like someone's grumpy-but-loveable uncle than the wickedest man alive in this picture. Hope this helps. - Minos

Dark Inquisitor	27 Jan 2003
I think a past life reading might help you greatly to sort out things that this deck is triggering in you. It could be that the confluence of events & images are becoming overwhelming to you & your unconscious at this time. Fainting with fear of Egyptian objects in a museum is a pretty good indication that there is something in the past that is bugging you. The body has to communicate with us somehow, & your anxious reactions are saying something. The Thoth is intense, & definitely very much reflective of its time & its creators. That is what I enjoy about it. But for you, it is doing something different. It might be that if you take just one card & focus on it at a time you will be able to access your own buried past or even present life memories that could be trying to come through to you .Once a past life is uncovered, it can sort of bleed into your present reality for a while & cause confusion. It sounds like you also have issues with grounding , protection, & shielding to investigate too. You might want to do that before proceeding. Tarotphelia

Minos	27 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia I think a past life reading might help you greatly to sort out things that this deck is triggering in you. It could be that the confluence of events & images are becoming overwhelming to you & your unconscious at this time. Fainting with fear of Egyptian objects in a museum is a pretty good indication that there is something in the past that is bugging you. The body has to communicate with us somehow, & your anxious reactions are saying something. Maybe. But I wouldn't say necessarily. Egyptian art is mostly religious and political in nature. Religion and politics depend, in part, on a kind of fear to make them work. This can be a negative kind of terror that fosters subservience and abjectness, or it can be a positive kind of holy awe - the kind of awe one has for a lover or a respected friend or relative. Anyways, with all of the animal-headed gods and huge stone things, the Egyptians piled it on pretty heavy with the awe thing. Hence their art has been popular among occultists and so forth. A bad reaction to that need not come from a bad past life experience about Egypt, but maybe just a particular sensitivity to fear or intimidation, perhaps acquired in childhood.

Minos	27 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Dajax I tried to read Crowley's Book of Thoth and I will be quite frank, I think he was 'mentally ill'. His book reads like manic-depression. That makes a lot of sense to me. Crowley was a notoriously late sleeper. He slept through almost all of his classes at Cambridge, and maintained a nocturnal schedule most of his life. He'd often pass that off jokingly as decadence or laziness, but for me, it very much calls to mind those awful, can't-get-out-of-bed pits of depression. If he was also manic, that could help explain the ease he had receiving 'inspired' writing like the Book of the Law. You want to see a book that reads like manic-depression, try that one out. Also, Crowley was a heroin addict for his entire adult life (he got it originally as a prescription for asthma), and he lived into his seventies. From what I've read, junkies who live to about forty (which isn't all that many of them) tend to kick the habit on their own. Crowley must have been self-medicating for some pretty awful internal demons to keep it up into his dotage. Quote: Originally posted by Dajax I also like to remind people that the Thoth is not just Crowley's. It is as much Lady Frieda Harris's creation. She is the artist. She put her spirit and passion into the deck as much as Crowley did, if not more. I like to say that Thoth wasn't created by Crowley or Harris, but by Crowley/Harris. From everything I've read about it, the two seem to have had a really amazing mind meld. Harris seems to be one of only about three women that Crowley ever held genuine affection for in his life*, and Harris seems to have been the only one of Crowley's female collaborators who could put the Beast in his place when she had to, and keep him from his worse impulses. *(And the only one who was his peer in age, intelligence, and standing, socially respectable, not sexually "loose", not drug- or alcohol- addicted, etc.) There've been some books out recently insinuating that Crowley's role in the design was pretty minimal. I think this is just as unfair as minimizing Harris' role. He clearly did meddle around with her art a lot, as you can see from the three Maguses in the Swiss version of the deck. He made her do that one over til she got it "just right". For the rest of the cards, though, they worked with sketches for the trial process, as she refused do another whole painting over ;-) In any case, the Thoth deck is clearly a lot more than either one could have produced on their own. Cf. Atu VI.

firemaiden	27 Jan 2003
A past life reading probably wouldn't hurt...I just had one done by Napea, and am delighted, just delighted with the results. The other thought I have is, Egyptian art, mummies, etc. are the stuff of many a horror film...you don't need to go looking so far really to get terrified...

Aoife	27 Jan 2003
for all your support, personal insights, views and information - all of which I have found invaluable and fascinating. These days, when I feel fear it is crucial for me to define it - therein lies my best self-protection, be it from physical, emotional or psychological danger. My fear in relation to Thoth - I have no doubt now that it related to deeply buried feelings of guilt/responsibility in relation to the young man's death. At the time I was too inexperienced, too unsupported..... but now, I have your support and insight, I'm no longer alone and I've learned from my life experiences. I think Minos' point about intimidation is what rings most true for me. It ties in with my sense of intimidation with the architecture and imagery of art deco. But..... I'm on such a steep learning curve and becoming aware that lots of what I previously held to be true isn't. I now realise that I was an intimidated child and I certainly have issues about ancestral paths.....but that will take time to unpack and I've taken enough of your time already. Anyway..... I have bought the Thoth deck. It sits unopened with my other decks. I believe it's happy to be with me and I'm happy it's here.... and someday soon we'll get re-acquainted. Thank you all so much. Your support has been a [god]dess send! Eve

The Thoth thread was originally posted on 17 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.