Very accurate_ and so what?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alex	02 Jan 2003
Since I started learning the Tarot, I've been doing readings for people here and there, mostly over the Internet, but sometimes in person. I always ask for feedback and more often than not I "hear" something like "pretty accurate, thanks very much". And I often wonder… "Is that all"? Not that I think it is bad, to be accurate every once in a while; but I wonder sometimes, what is the point of accuracy per se, in what we do? When I was learning statistics, I was taught that an "accurate" instrument not only "hits the target" consistently, but it also hits "the right target". An accurate instrument is able to "read" some kind of "truth". I'm glad my thermometer can accurately read my temperature but the only reason why it is helpful is that I know what to do if I happen to have fiver. However, when it comes to reading for someone, I sometimes wonder… what is the use of reading "facts" about one's life, or reading one's personality traits, if all that it will cause is an expression of amazement in the face of the client? I know it is impressive to have someone looking at your cards and saying "you've had a death in your family in the past month" but, in practice, what is the use of telling someone something that person already knows? One thing that I have played over and over in my head is the following: given the little time I have to invest on reading for people, how can I make this time worthy for them? Even though I derive some pleasure from the learning process, from figuring things out from the cards as if they were a puzzle, being *right* or wrong in my interpretation matters very little, as compared with the knowledge the I have wasted my time telling someone a lot of (accurate) platitudes that person already knew; and that whatever problem or question that person had in the beginning, has remained unanswered. I would like to hear from you about your experiences of feeling that you were helpful. I'm mostly interested on your experiences reading over the Internet and if possible some real examples. What readings did you think were most helpful to your clients, and what was the "style" of this reading? Did you simply state facts, did you make predictions, and did you give advice? If you could only write one paragraph with 100 worlds per reading, what aspect of the reading would you mostly concentrate in? Summarizing, what is more likely to help an *average* client? Blessings Alex.

Karenwhe	03 Jan 2003
What can I say Alex, your statement are very true I can write an essay about this of at least 50 pages, but I will try to keep it down to the core basis of the problem. People like to hear things – not do (solve my problem do not state the facts that I know already), and as you may know – that is not possible. But it still doesn’t change the human trait. People come to readers to hear what they want or good things in general, taking the risk that other things will be heard too. But they will only concentrate on what is convenient to hear. Most people want readings for “future prediction” they have no idea of what “free will” really means and that they can change their lives. They get the reading and then wait for the bad or good news to happen. There is also the issue of denial. I saw that a lot in relationship readings (“it is not my problem it is the other persons problem so how do we solve it?” like they have nothing to do with the relationship like they are not there.) How can you avoid this? Only way you can avoid this from my personal experience and in my humble opinion is to choose who you read to. 1. The person must want and ACCEPT help. 2. They must be aware of the problem they are trying to solve. 3. You must explain what is Free Will and what Possible Outcome means 4. You must explain that the tarot is not future telling tool but counseling / advising tool. I could carry on but I think you get the idea. I read in person only to people who WANT truly help. Online I ask a whole bunch of general questions before I start the reading, to profile the querent. Only then I decide if I want to read to them. I also know then where to focus the advice. Helping people is like a “tango” you can’t dance it alone. The other person must be willing to get help not just get a bunch of facts of the present or future. If they don’t want help they will NOT ask questions of how to solve the problem or advance/improve the issue. And I believe this is the majority and these are the people that you have encountered, that is why you asked those questions. You can’t make anything worthy for people that are not looking for something worthy, just for amusement or fact telling or whatever. A good example: I am lately counseling someone in the process of divorce and I read for her quite frequently on issue of spiritual development dealing with trauma, etc., etc., it feels good because the person is looking for help in return she is actually doing something about the advice the tarot give (again I choose my querents). I also see the difference in the person each time we meet on the net. She is step by step getting her problems solved and she is in high spirits with a lot of hope for the future. The style of reading is not really important (every reader has his/her style), finding the problem is important and telling what the cards advice the querent to do is important. Like the card Strength would say patience or whatever you say “to overcome this you need patience things will solve themselves in time…….. “ and you add of course the other advices that the cards give according to the problem you found based on the past (where it came from), the present (where it stands) and the possible outcome. The Possible Outcome has two implications: 1) the querent likes the possible outcome and these are the steps to get the querent there 2) the querent doesn’t like the possible outcome and this is the advice to change that. It must be put emphases on the good outcomes. People think that if a good thing comes in the cards they can just wait and it will fall in their lap. It just doesn’t happen that way, and the cards usually point what to do to get there. I gave you above a real example on the internet – a good one. Now I will give you a real example but a bad one. I read once to a person that I did not question beforehand (shoot myself in the foot). All she wanted is to “know for a fact” that her boyfriend is coming back. As you know I can only say what the cards have to say and not anything else. So I had to stop the reading in the middle and give an excuse. You can usually identify the querents by their questions. I don’t usually do opened questions at all on the internet, because I can’t profile the querent. Only if I know the person on the net from before I do opened questions. In general: I never make predictions and I always give advice. In all means of divination I use I am always on the counseling side. I don’t think that there is an aspect that you should concentrate on the reading, other than the problem that the client wants to solve which should be found in the cards. Therefore there is also nothing that is more likely to help an average client, every querent is unique and therefore their problems are unique and it should be handled that way. And there is no *average* client from my opinion. But I do think that you will find a lot of people inquiring about relationship and money matters, but again they all will have a uniquely different situation to be dealt with. I hope this helped you. If you have any other questions or I may have confused a bit please let me know.

tarotbear	03 Jan 2003
By any chance - do you charge people for their readings?

HudsonGray	03 Jan 2003
You'll get better feedback if you guide them through the question--instead of asking how it was, ask what areas you hit the nail on the head, or were you way off on something, or 'the ___ card, I felt it was going 2 different ways, _______ and ________, which is more accurate do you think?' Like that. If you leave it too open ended, people often don't know how to respond or will answer how they think you want to hear. Get more specific on what you want to know from them. Offer an either or type sentence, or ask their opinion on a specific point. Lots of people don't know how to give feedback.

Alex	03 Jan 2003
I'm on a student visa. Everyone should spend at least half a year on a visa to understand some profound life issues_ like not being able to charge for services that are not specified on the visa. But I'm just beginning, I don't feel "entitled" to charge yet. That can wait until I get established somewhere else I don't need a visa, or until I get a visa to read Tarot (that would be funny, wouldn't it?) Alex. Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear By any chance - do you charge people for their readings?

anjocoxo	03 Jan 2003
The more I read, the more I get the feeling that sometimes we (people who read tarot) are a kind of psychologist... we listen to other people's aspects of life (mostly their problems) and them we advise them. I find myself more and more often giving advises instead of "predicting" the future. If things are gonna be alright I usually say: "you can take a break now, things will go smoothly, yet you have to keep on working" or something like that; if the outcome doesn't sound so good I warn people "be careful with this, watch out for that"... But sometimes I'm the middle of a reading and I totally feel like a psychologist; at work I know everybody's problems in life and now they come to ask for advises even without the cards... if you always speak with a soft voice people start to see you as someone they can trust. And if you get accurate readings (which I'm getting) they will believe in what you say. Anyway (I'm going out of tracks) what I want to say is that I always give advises... b/c they have free will to change it. Once a lady I know told something I connect myself: If I told you in a reading you were going to have an accident by the end of this road, would you still go by that road? Or would you take a different one? It's up to the querent what they do with the information/advises we provide them. this were my 2 cents (hope they made sense)

bec	03 Jan 2003
thing about reading for others - strangers - spending time telling them what they already know - you dont know what they need. how often do we not know things we need to be told by others just to hear it clearly. and being told by a stranger really nails the "I dont wanna hear it, but it is true, cause even this stranger spend time and efforts telling me this" how much response/feed-back do you need to hear to feel satisfied that you did ok ? I can relate to the phrase "pretty accurate", I hate that one, cause that means something was not right, and yes then I too want to know what that is. But... the pretty accurate deal could mean that they need to digest the info more. and if they dont want to hear, like you told me, crying over spilled milck and be to passive, then "yea well I guess you are right, tho I am not sure". What does that mean? that you did a reading the read needs to deal with. You did your part, now it is up to them doing theres. My 3 carder in exhange section made me grab the phone and act !! I hate whiners, and I am the greatest of them all - hell no I dont want to be like that, so your 3 card reading was no fun, as I told you, a kick in the ego I needed more than I care to admit. So you kicked me (auch) and I got moving. No time wasted, a very good reading, I am acting instead of feeling sorry for my self, so the efforts put in the read is still in effect. Half a year from now, I prolly still can say, that 3 carder really hit me in the face. But when is enough said - a lesson to learn when reading for strangers is, dont expect them to pure out their hearts for you, especially not if the reading hit their soft spots ! rest assure that you did your part in helping them along.

Alex	03 Jan 2003
an important point. It is that there is something special about hearing a voice from the outside. One hundred readings I do for myself don't work as one I have somebody else doing for me_ just because it's not "my voice running round and round in my head". But the reading has to be more than "accurate", otherwise I just stare at the screen, amaze myself at the accuracy, and stay in the same place RE my particular concerns. I wasn't complaining about the feedbacks people give me, specifically. I think they are, for most part, fine. I was just wondering how people go about being helpful "voices from the outside" given the little knowledge of the other they might have, the time constraints and two computer screens inbetween. What to say when the Page of cups is inbetween the Q of Pent and the Q of Wands, given that I have no idea about how is child care in Denmark, how family issues are dealt with, how... what... when... I know taxes are high and it's a great place to be in but... oh boy, know what I mean? (I'm glad it has worked for you though!) Thanks you ALL for your inputs. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by bec how often do we not know things we need to be told by others just to hear it clearly. and being told by a stranger really nails the "I dont wanna hear it, but it is true, cause even this stranger spend time and efforts telling me this"

allibee	03 Jan 2003
Hi Alex I totally agree with Kiama. I have made no secret on the forum that I want a specific question, because a vague question gets a vague answer. You might hit the nail on the head, but if you do, it's of pretty little use if you cannot apply it to the reason they came to you in the first place IMHO. This is especially true of internet readings, where there is no immediate feedback, and you don't know if they are just 'being nice' to you because they don't want to let you know you are off base. How do you tell? Well with a specific question, first they have applied themselves to focusing on that question so you then have a notion of where to start, what you are looking for. Then I never do a small spread, or less than one spread, to try and build the picture or the story of the situation if you will. From this story and all the declarations and nuances you will KNOW you are on target. You are in a position to offer clear advice, to counsel. A small spread on a vague question just won't give you the thoroughness. What I'm trying to say is that with such indepth reading, you really shouldn't need their feedback. You should offer your own feedback to yourself. Was it good for you too? Sure, it's a lot of hard work, but that's what they will be paying you for. I suppose it is the difference between a 'fortune telling' and an in depth counselling session which is designed to help a person to take charge of their own life, and to make of it what they will, from which you as the reader will learn and grow too, another experience under your belt which may help you towards counselling others in the future. So the decision is up to you, what sort of reader do you want to be ... or as Dirty Harry would say: Do you feel lucky, punk?;) allibee

Alex	03 Jan 2003
but I always tell when the reader is off base. And I look at it from a somewhat detached perspective when I'm criticized, like "oops, I was dead wrong, oh my!". It's not my primary activity and I see myself as an aprendice, therefore so being wrong and right are like the two sides of the same coin. However, when I spend some time on a reading, I wish I could be at least somewhat helpful. And that may be easier than hitting a nail on the head. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by allibee This is especially true of internet readings, where there is no immediate feedback, and you don't know if they are just 'being nice' to you because they don't want to let you know you are off base. How do you tell? Well with a specific

allibee	03 Jan 2003
thats fine too, I'm not critising you at all. But not everybody who has a reading - the sitter - is a reader themselves or so detached is all I'm saying. There was a thread recently... urrggghhhhhh... can't remember it , but it was about the same thing (feedback). I'm just saying that it's better to do everything preemptive that you can, be as thorough as you can to be the most help to a person IMHO That's the way I work and see it, and you are perfectly entitled to turn it on it's head and ignore me, I'm just saying it works for me and the people I read for. allibee

Fuzzmello	03 Jan 2003
In my experience it takes quite a lot of time and effort for most people to really take a look at themselves and their actions, even if their actions are causing them pain. Very few who come in for counselling are there to hear what they're doing to tie themselves in knots. They take the position that they come to counselling to talk about what's bothering them. For some reason, they have the mistaken idea that listening is passive while talk, talk, talking is taking action to improve the situation. Tarot readings cut through this kind of defense (borne of laziness IMO) amazingly well. I suppose that's because people, even sophisticated, educated people, want to believe there are forces they can't explain or control. I think they are amazed and touched when a reading reveals them accurately, even if their defensiveness leaves us with a different impression. My firm belief is that tarot speaks to everyone who seeks it, even if their apparent manner suggests a "so what?" impression. Fuzz

zander770	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee There was a thread recently... urrggghhhhhh... can't remember it , but it was about the same thing i've been lurking--believe it or don't but i DO do that! "hold back" on a comment till i can REALLY give one hell of a whooper--for awhile and reading this very interesting thread. as i've mentioned, else/somewhere, i took about 5 yrs off from reading "publicly" (via live or internet) and/or for free of for money (reading for money is another topic, i think, and, yes, i think it does change a reading's dynamic's, but MOSTLY for the QUERENT and on "their end..."). anyway, regarding THIS topic--accuracy--i went thru a situation last summer that put my ego in check, Big Time: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10156 and, i seem to be very accurate when reading for a.t. member's, too: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9548 and--of course--i'd never disclose what, exactly, i was so "accurate" on regarding my reading for mooncat2 (cf: tarot ethics 101) for we've become friends (and SHE'S the one to consult--esp astrologically--for "accuracy," believe you me! she's amazing and there's a reading of her's re me that was sooooo exact and right on that it's . . . it was "chilling" is what it was). here's a difference between "is it Live or is it Memorex": http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9513&highlight=weird+readings ***in fact, mine's right above alex's! remember., alex? the one about your "star spread" and the "new man"?!!? and the last few months of 2002 i was as accurate as i ever have been. so, i'd like to include this example, here, practically "word-for-word," for i think it resonates on a lot of things mentioned here: live vs internet readings (you can "see" how "accurate" i was, BUT, she only "dolled it out" to me, piece-meal, and probably because of the "comfort zone" that the net and email provide; and as an "pure example" of a querent NOT taking my "advice" (obviously!), of using her Free Will, and, for "hearing what she wants to hear . . ." From: "Mxxxdxx Rxxxxls" To: READINGSBYZANDER770@xxxxx.COM>>Subject: tarot reading>Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:33:04 -1000>>Hi, I'm dragonslayerqueen and i'm requesting a tarot reading. I have been going thought a lot of crisis's these past 5 months and would like to know if all of these things will stop...lol. but seriously i wold like a reading.> thank you, allen mahan wrote: good-morning, ms. roxxxls (and: "do not fear" the Friday the 13th, for...it's also my son's 3rd Birthday Today and the beginning of the "12 Days of XMas!!!) now, then: the "theme" for my reading is a DEFINITE: "unavoidable change"--"SOMEthing MUST 'change,' and Not Necessarily for the Better." this is going to be rough going, but, as you said yourself, below; you've already had "five months of crisis" to prepare!!!now, it's Time for YOU to Change! i see a Legal matter...i see Two Women (whom are "close," but not necessarily"friends," or even "friendly"...and i see a Man...i also see Addiction (probably/this Male Figure, but definitely Connected TO Him), of Some Sort (alcohol,drugs, gambling, obesity, SEX???), too...mayhap this male figure is also aRelative, or, more likely a Past Lover? are you (WERE you???) involved in a Love Triangle where the Other Woman is aFormer Friend of Relative? again: EVERYTHING that appeared in my reading indicates CHANGE; Change"around" you; Changes Happening "to" you (unavoidable Change; unfavorableChange; Change which is "Out of Your Control"); and Changes "withIN" You!!!it also seems clear that this Bad Situation involves You, another Woman, and this Male Figure! i also need to make this very clear: YOU "need to Change" as much--or MORE!--than this Male Figure.what's this Legal Situation? whatever it is and/or your involvement in it, i see it being "out of your control" and not being "favorable" to you. (or,mayhap this is your "unconscious" desire; that the Legal Outcome is"negative," or; do you "unconsciously" WANT to LOSE???) "consciously," YOU "Want to Win," but, again; i am seeing Three People: You,the Other Woman, and the Man, but--It's "complicated," isn't it? i feel that either You "want to win" or that you want the Other Woman to Win, but--You Do NOT "want 'the man' to Win".the Final Outcome, again, is: CHANGE, and This Change is Going to Happen "to you, around you, and/or w/in YOU"!!!" however: the One Thing in Your Favor is that You "want to WIN," right? if you ARE in some Relationship w/this Man (and, especially if he's"addicted") i think that You should Leave..."Get Out"!!! and, i am NOTsaying/seeing that solely because i "see addiction"; i am saying it because iSee that He is NOT "going to change..."YOU have to.well? please let me know if i was accurate and/or helpful in anyway, if you would, and, i hope things Workout, and Get Better, for YOU, ms. royal! since saw "Change" so Fully and Totally during this reading, mayhap, during thisHoliday Season, you might Do Something...DIFFERENT! yes, i'd be helpful to you to volunteer and Serve Others, but...Do Something For YOU "out of the ordinary..." do a bit of Splurging and Pampering for ms. royal!!!slan leat,~Z~770 On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Mixxxd Roxxxls hi zander, I must say you where very accurate about the legal situation and about the male, i feel changes happening and not in control of it! I'm trying to help the male out of this legal problem but have feelings if i really believe him. You have put in words what i have been feeling, i just need to find the right path for me and decide on what I want to do. than you! allen mahan wrote: thx for replying! i also posted on astronet--didn't know if you'd receive the reading and didn't want to "lose" it...hey: i'm glad he's NOT "an addict," at least, ya know? sometimes, i LOVE being WRONG! . . .amm770X02X. . . On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:24:27 -0800 (PST) Mildred Royals Dear Zander, you where not wrong he is an addict. allen mahan wrote: >no sh*t...you failed to mention that! so...is the only thing i "got wrong" the Other Woman and the "triangle"? details! details! ha!!! --allen On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:05:58 -0800 (PST) Mildred Royals wrote: dear zander, you where also right about the other woman, part of legal situation,he has been accused but not found guilty of rape hi mildred: thx for reply and shedding even more light upon my reading from yesterday, but, look: i am always very sorry when i "hit" so accurately, and, i am NOT a "councelor." i HAVE been reading tarot, et al, for a very long time, tho, and, if you look at the reading, again--especially at the end--i DID "advise" you on what you "might" do. i feel that "something" in YOU "needs to change." moreover, i think i said that i saw that--if the Male Figure was "correct;" that you were "involved in a triangle" w/him, that you should "leave," "Get Out," so...that's what i say: #15 the devil was your final outcome card. ***please: do NOT become frightened, okay? i don't know you, at all, right, nor the total situation. tarot can be a "light," but, we ALWAYS make our OWN choices and decisions. feel free to write to me, again, if you'd like. leat, --allen *BACK* there's also The TOPPER for me for 2002 and that was accurately "seeing" that my querent had recently been thru a "horrible, murderous nightmare," and--much like the example above, "piece-meal," i was to learn that my querent's daughter was the victum of a recent "murderous rampage" here in phoenix, which, of course, is still an on-going investigation. ya know? after i "mentioned"--"i can see that you've recently been thru a 'horrible, murderous nightmare" i said: "o! and, btw--that man you're going to meet this weekend will have money and a beard!" turns out she was going to see her boyfriend, WHO'S IN PRISON in globe, az., and LOOKS EXACTLY AS I DISCRIBED HIM to be. if anyone's interested, i have that reading saved, as well. why do you think i am "patiently" staring at this...this Calender Spread (which has been on my Second Table, now, for 3 DAYS--Four Cards Remain UNTURNED, btw!!), now? for ACCURACY!!! hey--i respect this board (and, also, my "talent's") too much to "toss off" my reading (but, mostly? i am seeing soooooo much in 2003 that i want to get it Straight!) time to "fiesta"!!! GO BUCKEYES!!! ~770 :TMAGE

Alex	03 Jan 2003
I didn't think you were criticizing me (I can never spell this word right). Thanks for your input, Alibee. I sometimes just have these undirectional out loud thoughts. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by allibee thats fine too, I'm not critising you at all. But not everybody who has a reading - the sitter - is a reader themselves or so detached is all I'm saying.

Alex	03 Jan 2003
I don't recall any new man above my star spread by I'll go check it out rigth now! Wait a minute. Quote: Originally posted by zander770 ***in fact, mine's right above alex's! remember., alex? the one about your "star spread" and the "new man"?!!? OK, editing, I'm back. Zander I don't get it. No new man above the star spread. Alex.

Alex	03 Jan 2003
The point of the thread was not that I need people to give me feedback regarding my readings. I'll make an analogy. Just suppose you ask me to read for you regarding your "love life". There're many things I can do here with the cards, different ways to spread them etc. Then suppose that, by reading the cards, I can tell the color of your eyes, that you've been married to a drugs addict, how much you weight etc etc etc. I can fill in a page with facts about your past and your looks etc and have you amazed at my accuracy. All that without having given you any information that could be of help. You have a mirror, a scale, and you know what kind of a man you were married to five years ago. Why would you pay me to tell you these things, accurate and amazing as they might be? My question was: given the universe of information that you may be able to gather about a client, what, in your experience, is most likely to serve that person's need? Accuracy of predictions? Advice regarding what to do? Mere description of facts? A mix of all these? I think Fuzz. touched an important point which is that of causing some little impression so the sitter/client will have his/her years more open to whatever will follow. I agree with what you say below and with all you'd said in the same posting. It's just that I was thinking along another line. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by allibee . What I'm trying to say is that with such indepth reading, you really shouldn't need their feedback. You should offer your own feedback to yourself. Was it good for you too?

allibee	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex My question was: given the universe of information that you may be able to gather about a client, what, in your experience, is most likely to serve that person's need? Accuracy of predictions? Advice regarding what to do? Mere description of facts? A mix of all these? Ok, I am of the narration, storytelling school of tarot, where each card is not seen in isolation, but is part of a jigsaw. Put the pieces of the jigsaw together and you have a picture from which you can describe the facts, advise on a course or courses of action to quite an accurate degree. Reading the story, it is possible also to read between the lines. Add another spread to open up another part of the same story. When you are sure of the characters, scenery and plot in your story, then that familiarity can open up the whole area of where help/counselling/advice can be offered. I have never been of the school of thought that says: this card says you will have a baby, this card says an elderly relation will die, this card says a young man will offer to marry you ... what good does that do for the sitter/ and frankly I think that's the biggest load of BS. I read the tarot for others so that they may make more informed decisions. Am I straying from the point? I know what you are saying Alex. A mix of all three in varying degrees. But yes, I do agree that the sitter should be made to realise you can only help them if they accept that they want help. It can be like an addict in denial. allibee

bec	04 Jan 2003
hmm, I too read this thread as "I want more feed-back", but I realize that our point of view is actually very close to one another. what kind of reading will benefit the sitter the most, the predictive one, the counseling one or the lining up facts one - depends on what the sitter REALLY wants from you. You might get a sitter asking " what will happen in my future" and this they already know the answer to, as the future they are asking about is already on the closest edge to being present. They are testing you - so here it would be a very good idea to give them the lining up facts and knock them down with a "predictive" closure. That will teach them to test a reader :P haha You might get a sitter who asks a question they really dont wanna hear the answer for. Or even worse, they ask a question and cards answer another complete different one !!! What I have learned reading for others is that no matter what they ask for, no matter how you re-phrase or dont re-phrase the Q, counsling or predicting; the cards will show what the sitter needs to know. I saw right now in reading exhange and I had those in mails too - saying "will I be pregnant in xxx time?" DOH, do you read it ? can you read it ? I would ask " dunno sweetie - do you have sex ???" so after re-viewing your point in this thread my answer will be that it really depends on what the sitter really wants from you. Not all are being read for the bare truths sake ;)

Alex	04 Jan 2003
but I think some people would find themselves capable of reading for such questions as well. A think alibee has made a point that is similar to yours: whatever the help might be that the client needs, it will be revealed by the cards. However, I am not capable of doing more than one spread in order to gather information, as she does. The more spreads I do for someone I don't have in front of me, the more confused I get. I would know better after a little conversation with the person... Anyway, thanks for the input. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by bec I saw right now in reading exhange and I had those in mails too - saying "will I be pregnant in xxx time?" DOH, do you read it ? can you read it ? I would ask " dunno sweetie - do you have sex ???"

Dark Inquisitor	04 Jan 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Alex **You have a mirror, a scale, and you know what kind of a man you were married to five years ago. Why would you pay me to tell you these things, accurate and amazing as they might be? __I used to wonder the same thing. Somewhere along the line I came to realize that those things are necessary for the client & you to verify that the reading is truly about them & that you are not a bogus reader. Also, there are things that we think are no big deal, but to the other person they mean everything. Just being able to witness another person able to access that information through an oracle can give someone a whole new perspective on spiritual life & hope that they are not alone & abandoned by an uncaring universe. **My question was: given the universe of information that you may be able to gather about a client, what, in your experience, is most likely to serve that person's need? Accuracy of predictions? Advice regarding what to do? Mere description of facts? A mix of all these? __If you want to give more to the client and you are limited to only 1 spread, consider adding on cards at the end of it for spiritual advice or direction . Tarotphelia

Karenwhe	04 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by bec depends on what the sitter REALLY wants from you. I couldn’t agree more. As readers or service providers for money or for free, it is not about us – it is about the sitter/querent/client. In turn this will determine the “type” of reading (not style). As Alex said already there are many things you can get out of the card, these things I categorize in a way I can identify what the querent is looking for: 1. Informative (just a bunch of fact telling) 2. Counseling (they want advise to act upon) 3. Outcomes (fortune telling) But again you must know what the client wants to be able to provide the best reading. How otherwise will you know what “type” of reading to concentrate on so that you can give the best help? Now something I don’t agree on: Quote: Originally posted by bec I saw right now in reading exhange and I had those in mails too - saying "will I be pregnant in xxx time?" DOH, do you read it ? can you read it ? I would ask " dunno sweetie - do you have sex ???" On this I must reply from personal experience…. It is TRUE that the question is dumb, but it is not really, when you think that some women have problems with getting pregnant and try for years with no results and are afraid to turn to external treatments (as they are very invasive) to have a child. I agree that the person in this case did not ask the question properly, but that does not mean that she does NOT have a problem. All querents questions must be treated seriously (yes there are weirdoes out there, this is why I choose my querents – I can afford to do this because I read for free). You should treat a question as serious as you want your own questions to be treated. If you don’t know the facts behind the question – do not assume (there is a saying: “assumption of the mother of all ****ups”). I have many examples for this pregnancy question, but I will give only 2: 1. I personally had a problem with this with my middle child (I have 3 children). I know how painful this can be. I also learnt from life experience (not tarot) how many reasons there are for not getting pregnant. And I can assure you, not getting pregnant has nothing to do with how much sex you have ……... and I don’t wish this experience upon any woman. 2. I also read for a woman that has been trying to have a child for 4 years. She just couldn’t get pregnant. It is very painful and very hard on relationships these situations. So, what can tarot give on this issue? From my experience – I didn’t see the tarot give the date and time of when a woman will get pregnant, but I did see that the Tarot give advise if she or he has medical problems (that they may have not checked from fear of going through the ordeal), and it can also advise if he or she have energy blockages (fears, stressful life, etc., etc.) and these energy blockages is another reason for not getting pregnant (this was my case as well). The bottom line from my experience is that if you read tarot you deal with people and there is no question more or less important than another – it is what the querent is dealing with and how important that is for them.

Alex	04 Jan 2003
responding a "fortune telling" request with a counseling/ educational approach. It is the best most of us are capable of doing. Yet it is not a reading on the line of what the sitter "wants". It's in the midline between what the sitter "needs" and what we can offer. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe So, what can tarot give on this issue? From my experience – I didn’t see the tarot give the date and time of when a woman will get pregnant, but I did see that the Tarot give advise if she or he has medical problems (that they may have not checked from fear of going through the ordeal), and it can also advise if he or she have energy blockages (fears, stressful life, etc., etc.) and these energy blockages is another reason for not getting pregnant (this was my case as well).

Karenwhe	04 Jan 2003
Actually it is what the sitter wants: the sitter wants to get pregnant and has a problem with that. Weather the sitter puts a date on this or not - she wants a child. period. *see edit. This is why I explain over and over again, that we must understand the sitters (this is not a simple task as it may sound), not just take their questions "as is", not all people know how to ask the right question. You must understand the underlying problem not take the words and try to translate them into an answer with the tarot. That is why I addressed the “can I get pregnant in xxx time” question. People seem to look at the questions “as is” not understand the problem. This not understanding the underlying problems is further magnified by the lack of ability to real-time interact on the internet. (To solve this problem I read mainly in chat rooms, where I can ask the querent questions, not on boards). Edited to add: whether the sitter actually needs a child, that is definately not for us to get into.

bec	05 Jan 2003
I agree that the issue of not being able to get pregnant fo rsome reason, is not something to be taken lightly. But asking "WHEN will I get pregnant" if indeed the case is that you can not or have very big difficulties in getting pregnant - well, that would be the same having to answer a cancer or aids patient, when they will find a cure, and on top not knowing they are sick !!! Sitter, querent, client what ever to call these persons, also do have some responsibily in asking what they need - what they REALLY need. No matter how important or not their issue might be.

Karenwhe	05 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by bec Sitter, querent, client what ever to call these persons, also do have some responsibily in asking what they need - what they REALLY need. I totally agree with the responsibility issue. But ……….yeah there is always a but….. I am speaking from our side, the side of the READER, as this thread was started on the issue of “How can I add value or help with my readings”. The reader when they become a reader they come with knowledge, more knowledge than the Querent/Sitter/Client, therefore it is their responsibility if they want to help to understand the underlying problem alternately help the querent ask a better question. Because Tarot is a Question and Answer type of help, talking through and giving advise based on the Tarot… a good example would be like going to a psychologist and asking questions……….. and the expert (psychologist), sitting on the other side of the table saying to the client “you are not taking responsibility in asking what you need……etc. etc.”, but didn’t just the client take responsibility by coming to the expert he expects help not criticism or in other word you could say he expects “constructive criticism” if nothing else. And no matter how you turn or twist this, the reader knows better how to ask the Tarot questions, what questions will give more accurate answers, what questions are more likely to help, and how in general to ask a question etc., etc., etc., than the Querent/Sitter/Client will ever know. They may take full responsibility in what thy need and what they REALLY need or WANT but that does not mean that they know how to ask the right question to the Tarot. I have seen somewhere an entire section of a course on how to construct Tarot questions, I personally understand that my Querents don’t have this knowledge and if I decide to help them I also have the responsibility to help them ask the right questions. I do this all the time when the person asks a question that can be better rephrased. As I said in my first post, I inquire about my querents I ask questions I assume nothing and when I have enough knowledge about the problem I read to the querent. I also have found over and over again that this is the way to go if I REALLY want to help and not just provide a bunch of facts or amusement. Tarot readers have more knowledge and wisdom about Tarot and how they work, what they are used for and how they help – with this knowledge comes responsibility, with the will to help someone else comes responsibility - lots of it. Is then the reader more responsible than the querent? No. They are responsible for different things. But if the reader doesn’t take responsibility in understanding the underlying question he/she may also give wrong advise …. with this come great responsibility, and with the querent just looking for advise he/she will take what he/she is given.. .and then what?

Alex	05 Jan 2003
"how to arrive to a question I may be competent to answer". As I understand what's written below. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe I have seen somewhere an entire section of a course on how to construct Tarot questions, I personally understand that my Querents don’t have this knowledge and if I decide to help them I also have the responsibility to help them ask the right questions. I do this all the time when the person asks a question that can be better rephrased. anyone who's attended counseling sections can attest that: counselors will restrain from giving "direct" advice as much as they can; and they will try to make the client arrive to the "right" conclusion on himself. I guess that's what Tarot readers could do whenever possible: offering some facts and interpreting the possible consequences of certain behaviours. Along the line "I see you doing "A", that may result in "B", and in order to avoid "B" you can do "C" or "D". "In order to get what you say to me you want "C" is the best course of action". Etc. But all this takes time and patience. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe They are responsible for different things. But if the reader doesn’t take responsibility in understanding the underlying question he/she may also give wrong advise …. with this come great responsibility, and with the querent just looking for advise he/she will take what he/she is given.. .and then what? [/b] However I understand that sometimes it's hard to be patient and avoid being intrusive and controlling. That's why I don't entertain the idea of reading for people on a ongoing basis. Alex.

Karenwhe	05 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex "how to arrive to a question I may be competent to answer". As I understand what's written below. I am not sure how I got that across, but that is definitely not what I meant. And as I said: there are ways to ask questions and there are ways to ask questions. A good example for that would be "If you ask a dumb question, you will get a dumb answer". But not everyone knows how to ask the "right question" and I think that the pregnancy question that started this conversation proved that. The first response to the pregnancy question was "What a dumb question…..why don’t you go have sex"..... etc. etc. - well if you rephrase the question you see that it is not so dumb and you can also answer it – but of course that would be taking responsibility. To be plain and strait forward to avoid misunderstanding again what I meant: you can answer any question you want, but if the question is dumb the answer will be the same and would help no one – not the reader to gain experience (in your case) and not the querent for getting help. Further more you do not have to be neither controlling or intrusive to do this, you just have to be patient and put in the effort required to get results. And from what I understand (but then again I may be wrong) you started this thread to get some results for you and your querents in our readings (not only “ very accurate – so what?) To get beyond “Very accurate – so what?” from my experience does NOT need intrusiveness or control but it does need patience and understanding.

Alex	05 Jan 2003
Certainly, but upon rephrasing it, I would not not be answering that specific question. I can't tell if someone is going to get pregnant in two months. Period. I never said, by the way, that the question is dumb. I just said that I could not answer it *as is*. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe The first response to the pregnancy question was "What a dumb question…..why don’t you go have sex"..... etc. etc. - well if you rephrase the question you see that it is not so dumb and you can also answer it – but of course that would be taking responsibility. Probably not. I was *just* referring to the fact that sometimes it's hard not to be controlling or intrusive. It's hard to find the right way not to be sometimes. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe Further more you do not have to be neither controlling or intrusive to do this, you just have to be patient and put in the effort required to get results. [/b] Not specifically, even though the idea itself came from posting there. I have myself on occasion received readings that were accurate as to describe my situation, yet but useless as far as helping me with anything. I wanted to raise a discussion about internet-related readings and what could make them more helpful. There have been many discussion on whether they can be *accurate*. Many. I hadn't seen one yet, on how can they could be *helpful*. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe And from what I understand (but then again I may be wrong) you started this thread to get some results for you and your querents in our readings (not only “ very accurate – so what?) [/b] I don't disagree with that. Actually I don't disagree with anything. I was just trying to keep a conversation going and exchange some ideas about the subject. Never mind. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe To get beyond “Very accurate – so what?” from my experience does NOT need intrusiveness or control but it does need patience and understanding. [/b] Thanks for your input, Karen alex.

Alex	06 Jan 2003
and make sure there are no misunderstandings regarding my intentions upon starting the thread: I was NOT complaining about the kind of feedback people give me in the forum "Reading Exchange". I was NOT trying to imply or suggest that my readings are accurate. I was NOT criticizing any of the questions I have been asked in the forum "Reading Exchange". I was JUST trying to raise a discussion on what can be more helpful to others in readings on the line of those offered in that forum. Thanks you all for your input Alex.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Jan 2003
Alex- isn't it wonderful when it seems nobody knows what the hell you are talking about ??? Some kind of magical thing going on, I think. Anyway, if you don't want to be controlling & directional, perhaps you could take the whole matter off your hands & leave it to the tarot - throw in a card or 2 at the beginning of the spread for what will help the person most, or what they most need to know. That's what I would do. What's going to be most helpful could be different for each person- how are we to know if they don't specify, won't admit it, or don't know themselves? Tarotphelia

Alex	06 Jan 2003
once it's been the history of my posting in this forum all along. Misunderstandings after misunderstandings, small ones and big ones. I'm getting kinda tired; but it may be *just* that's past midnight and I've beeing doing something else that is extreemly boring. Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Alex- isn't it wonderful when it seems nobody knows what the hell you are talking about ??? Some kind of magical thing going on, I think. Tarotphelia I guess that's exactly why they come to someone who could or would be willing to help them. Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia What's going to be most helpful could be different for each person- how are we to know if they don't specify, won't admit it, or don't know themselves? Tarotphelia [/b] But right now I kinda feel like I don't care anymore. Thanks for your input. Alex.

bec	06 Jan 2003
I actually do think its a very DARH question whether or not one will get pregnant in 2 months. But that is just me. Given that no one can answer such a question, with tarot, horoscope or crystal ball. To get back to topic and back to the PURPOSE of this topic. What can you do to be the best of help you can? By giving a very clear description of what to gain from tarot. ATA code of ethics says: I will serve the best interests of my clients, conducting my professional activities without causing or intending to cause harm. I will treat all my clients with equal respect, regardless of their origin, race, religion, gender, age, or sexual preference. I will represent honestly my Tarot qualifications, including educational credentials and levels of certification. I will keep confidential the names of clients and all information shared or discussed during readings, unless otherwise requested by the client or required by a court of law. I will recommend clients consult a licensed professional for advice of a legal, financial, medical, or psychological nature that I am not qualified to provide. If trained in one of these areas, I will clearly differentiate between the tarot reading and any professional advice additionally provided. I will respect my clients' right to refuse or terminate their reading at any time, regardless of prior consent. I recognize that all ATA members have the same rights and obligations, and I will always respect and honor my co-members. Whether you follow your own code of ethics or pre-writtens like these, then you should be able to sit back after a reading and feel " I did the best I ever could have, now it is their choice and decision making the circle end" Don't feel miscouraged Alex :) I like your threads and style, so please keep them coming :D You make us think !!

Karenwhe	06 Jan 2003
Yes I agree with Bec don't feel misencouraged - I think it was a healthy debate with some very sharp minds..... I love that.... And I also like the ATA code of ethics.

Moongold	06 Jan 2003
Hi Alex, Thanks for this thread. I have been watching your posts for months now and I feel that in some ways I know you because you give so much of yourself to others on the Aeclectic boards. One of the very first readings I ever did was for you! It was done in that rosy glow of confidence and excitement when I hardly knew anything at all. You handled it very graciously and I rememember how anxious I was. That was my stuff at the time though. Some feedback for you - I have always felt that you put a lot of thought into your readings and responses, that you are intuitive and that you have a lot of knowledge of Tarot. Your different cultural background gives sharpness to your readings. With all of that and the integrity with which you seem to act I think you do pretty well. I know you did not ask for this feed back, but I wanted to give it to you and this seems like a good time. I think that if we know our material and that if we act with respect and integrity we can't go too wrong. I stopped reading for others because I really needed some personal spiritual development and I've made a decison that I'll wait for a few more months before doing more than the odd comment. I did something recently and the person didnt comment at all (an interesting response) so I decided to pop back into my reflective cave for a while! I think I'll know when to start doing readings again. Thanks for your interesting and often amusing posts. Moongold

napaea	13 Jan 2003
alex: (love your avatar by the way) ok, i admit i haven't read allllll of these posts. i started to, but got a little overwhelmed by them all! so sorry if i repeat anything that someone else said. i do heartily agree with Tarotphelia, if you feel limited to one spread, and want more clarification, pick a few more cards. you could always try the 7 card spread, 1. recent past 2. present 3. near future 4. querent 5. surrounding energies 6. queren't attitude 7. answer/summary then after that spread, do another 7 card spread layout specifically asking something that came up: "how will it go for me this year in romance" i've found this to work well, and it 's just the one spread **** this is what i think is important. do your readings, for yourself, others, and print them out. look them over. what do you think YOUR best points are, your best qualities as a reader? are you empathic? are you good at condensing the information into a bite sized morsel easily digested? are you good at giving options to the querent? are you good at recommending books to read or tapes to listen to? some people are good at logic, and they can help you see more clearly what you need to do. some people are better at telling you to feel more confident personally. find what you do best, and just do it. you can't please everyone. you have to find the things you are good at in tarot, and offer those qualities. if you aren't any good at forcasting the future, and someone comes to you wanting to know when they'll meet mr.right, you can tell them you don't forcast and send them to someone who does. as i see it, your job as a reader is to tell the client exactly what the cards tell you, in as lovingly a way as possible. what they do with this information and how they respond to it is up to them. if you feel you are having trouble reading for a person in the specific way YOU want to, take some time before each reading and meditate a little. ask for help. think about the person you'll be reading for and try to connect to their energy. maybe you want to concentrate more on the energy of the person you are reading than the reading itself. just be sure to disconnect from their energy afterwards. sorry this is so long, if anything has been helpful yay! you can pm me and we can talk more. if it's just been bothersome blathering, i'm sorry! ;)

Alex	14 Jan 2003
Napaea Thanks. Some of these ideas are helpful. I must confess I got a bit discouraged along the way dealing with this thread. I just wanted to get some oppinions like the ones you've given me but once more I got a cascade of misunderstandings instead. Alex.

HudsonGray	14 Jan 2003
That's the problem with a written form of communication, it's hard to get inflections & body language & the rest of the communication 'dance' portrayed on screen. All we get is the words. As for the pregnancy question, actually my first question to the deck would be 'what's standing in the way' rather than look for a yes or no.

Alex	15 Jan 2003
"misencouraged" ? Yeah, HudsonGray: we now use written communication that often but without the care and preparation people used to writte letters to each, other in times when there was no other way to communicate with people at a distance. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Alex I must confess I got a bit discouraged along the way dealing with this thread. Alex.

HudsonGray	15 Jan 2003
Not only that, it drives me NUTS when people use 'shorthand' ---U no what I mn 'bout this....... Makes me think only 14 year old girls are online or something. It's not quicker to read or type and it's not used online much anymore. But there are holdouts & it just drives me crazy! Type in English. And use it well, that's what all the English classes were for in high school. *rant, rant, pant.......huh...huh... breathe...........* (and go back & fix the spelling mistakes if you see them, like I just did...sigh.)

Alex	16 Jan 2003
I would not do anything else in life!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a dyslexic non-native speaker of English. Even when I use the spell checker... I might end up with "bitch" when I truly meant "beach" or "brake" when I meant "break" and so on and so forth. May be we all should concentrate in saying less and putting more information and thought in what we say and the way we say it. That would make every posting more interesting, and generate less conflicts. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray (and go back & fix the spelling mistakes if you see them, like I just did...sigh.)

The Very accurate_ and so what? thread was originally posted on 02 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.