What is myth to you?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sara	21 Jan 2003
Could the tarot be looked at as a system of myths in its own right? It is said to map out the journey of the Fool/Magician, among other things. Is this, in your view, a myth? In the question in the header I'm looking for your own opinion on what myth is. In the second part, I'm viewing myth as a story (or set of stories) held in common by a group of people, that has spiritual significance to those individuals who use it. I'm curious whether or not people feel that the stories in tarot relate more to their divinitory meanings, or if they have significance beyond that to you. I'm not quite phrasing what I want to say correctly, and some people have touched on this in their responses to other questions, but I am curious to hear other poeple's responses. (In anthropology we are taught to dread biasing people's answers by the questions we ask, so I'm purposely being vague, here, but by being vague I'm not sure I'm asking the question that I'm trying to ask. Does that make any sense? :) ) Anyway, now that I've fried my own brain and made everyone else scratch their heads at what I'm trying to ask, I await your responses... Sara

DeLani	21 Jan 2003
Sara, I think I know what you are asking- I'm an Anthro too. I do in fact think that the Tarot has become a myth, as in stories of archetypes held in common by a group of people, and the stories are designed to instruct in proper behaviour and spiritual truths. Does that make sense?

Sara	26 Jan 2003
It makes perfect sense. You crystallized my working definition perfectly. (my working definition was a bit too long and cumbersome to post, and I was waiting to see what other people said first, but you managed to bring it down to its essentials very nicely). Nice to see a fellow anthro major here. How are you liking it? I've really enjoyed my classes and the people I've met in them. Sara

fairyhedgehog	26 Jan 2003
Myth: a story that reflects an underlying psychological truth (or spiritual truth - for me they are the same thing.) For me the important thing is that myths are psychologically true, rather than factually true. The bit about 'being held in common by people' is a bit further than I'd got in my thinking :) Yes, I see Tarot as mythical, in that the cards carry deep psychological meanings. I like to hear other people's meanings - I suppose that is their myths in a way - to expand the meaning the cards have for me. I don't use Tarot for divination.

truthsayer	26 Jan 2003
imho, all world cultures have common stories that link a people together. for example, every spiritual system has a creation myth. for example, first man and first woman stories like adam and eve. world wide all these stories have a common thread that tie them to each other. these are what some consider the universal (un)- consciousness. this could also be called universal archetypes. imho, tarot represents 78 common themes of life on earth. the major arcana are like guiding archetypes of a karmic nature. minor arcana are like every day life archetypes that tie us all together as densizens of earth. every culture has some form of the fool's journey through the tarot. it's just called different things. for example, the odessey is the fool's journey of odesseus trying to come home after the trojan war. when someone creates a tarot deck, the deck needs a guiding mythology of some sort to tie it together. for example, the mythic deck is greek mythology. the rws or the thoth could be said to come from the mythology of the golden dawn.

amyel	27 Jan 2003
Yes, Sara, I would have to say that tarot has some elements of myth to it...attributing particular meanings to particular cards. For instance "Death" actually signifies change; and certainly deathin other myths was symbolic of change, not actual physical death. For example, the Greek myth of Persephone, how winter is often described as "the cold death"... Obviously, some decks have used myths as their base, i.e. the Mythic (Greek), Olympus (Greek or Roman), Arthurian (Camelot), Glastonbury (Avalon + Arthurian)...on & on & on.... And what are myths, after-all, but a way of explaining why...much like some people use Tarot - to explain why. Just my musings on the topic....

jmd	28 Jan 2003
This is the kind of question which I avoid reading the responses to until after I have posted - so apologies for any contradictions or duplications, which I would normally take into consideration. Mythe is often contrasted to Logos, though what is implied by each remains, in many cases, similar. Whereas the Mythos carries a discourse or narrative bearing deep spiritual meaning, Logos seeks to reveal these through its analysis-like removing of excrescences, penetrating to its core. The related questions which are pertinent then become whether the Tarot does carry Mythe which can be further revealed through Logos, or whether the embodiment of the Tarot reflects numerous syncretic echoes of Mythe, none of which ever capture nor reflect its essence, precisely because its essence is multifarious. I suppose, then, that for me, the stories and narratives which one can see 'in' the Tarot, no matter how wonderful (for example, the Bateleur's journey), are more like echoes therein contained becoming independent and alive in the emergent stories - these are the Mythe, not the being of Tarot. This doesn't mean that the cards do not embody deep spiritual impulses. Rather, that, as well as Mythe and Logos, there is the Icon - ie, the semiotically rich and revealing Image, or , in this case, set of images. What we strive for in our own semiosis of these images is to render them into either Mythe or Logos narratives, depending on our temperamental predilection. Your question is wonderful - and now look forward to reading its other answers :)

Cerulean	28 Jan 2003
and developing your response to stories that touch on symbols found in the major arcana, here is an early (1992) title readily available. This black and white book has illustrations you can color, both Rider Waite and TdM trumps and others. The book explores the majors and some pertinent mythology: Following Your Path: Using Myths, Symbols, and Images to Explore Your Inner Life by Alexandra Collins Dickerman Ingram reviews: An innovative and accessible self-exploration workbook to elicit deep responses from the unconscious mind. Visual dimensions of ancient icons, symbols, Tarot images, and classical* myths help readers discover surprising insights about who they are and why they behave the ways they do. Over 250 illustrations. My last few book suggestions tend to be 'psychological' or 'eclectic' rather than a specific spiritual belief system or any cultural tradition...so the author's definition of 'classical' means various cultural traditions, not only Western civilization. I've played with the Comparative Tarot (four different card samples on one card) and looking at the above book...for a card-a-week draw, there's quite a bit of different mythical stories to explore. I believe that I am in agreement with JMD if we both mean certain symbolic aspects of the majors can pull up reflections and ideas in our human minds from different cultural mythologies. Mari H.

truthsayer	28 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki and developing your response to stories that touch on symbols found in the major arcana, here is an early (1992) title readily available. This black and white book has illustrations you can color, both Rider Waite and TdM trumps and others. The book explores the majors and some pertinent mythology: Following Your Path: Using Myths, Symbols, and Images to Explore Your Inner Life by Alexandra Collins Dickerman Mari H. i bought this book 9 years ago and it's still one of my favs. it's sold as more of a self-help book than a tarot book. i really like the exercises and the myths used to illustrate cards or vice versa. i bought it when i was taking a course on joseph campbell and the power of myth. up to that point i had not really looked to tarot as a source of myth but that book drastically changed how i saw tarot.

Teranar	28 Jan 2003
But does not the saying go every event told oraly changes to story, from story to legend, then from legend, to myth, with the details so long changed that the original story is reduced to the basic frame of the story? In short what I am saying behind every myth is some source it came from, its origin, and no myth is simply made up, unless you make them up specifically to BE myths. An example is the Myth of Odyssius, the Greek hero, who is immortalized in the Illiad and the Oddesy, which are legends, which originated from the story of the battle of Troy, which came from the actual Greek-Trojan war.

Violet Gargoyle	28 Jan 2003
Folklorist here- I have to designate myth, legends, folklore and folktales, but the basic building blocks would be that all pretty much use a story to explain an event. Everything else is the balance in between. For instance, myths tell of a completely supernatural cause making a natural effect. Take away the supernatural and you have to go back to square one on the explaination. Legends tell of a tweeked ( I am meaning Lionized, more exhaulted than your average Joe, yet usually still human) mortal, causing a supernatural effect. A bit of a shift there. However, if you take away the supernatural here, you still at least have a (albeit less dramatic) ending to the cause. Folklore explains local customs and beliefs. Folktales do the same but are more designed for entertainment value. This is what gets passed orally the most, it is family roots being passed on throughout generations through the villages. Propp breaks this down a lot further- he has is settled into a downright pattern, but the general premise starts from customs and ancestry. I see Tarot as an intertwining of folklore and folktale rather than myth, though it probably took its roots from myth. However the evolution of the art carried more cultural customs and symbolism are involved in the cards' artwork and story (Fools Journey) than in the mythological creatures. Though some of the cards depict the symbolism of some otherworldly representations, reading the cards requires something very human. The answers that each find in the cards are an effect seen by different individuals as natural (meditative tool) or supernatural (spiritual influences) depending on their personal beliefs.

The What is myth to you? thread was originally posted on 21 Jan 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.