linguistic constructs in the cards??

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	15 Feb 2003
Meatbox666 pointed out the 4 of swords suggests the phrase "dead to the world". Symbols are the language of dreams, we learned from Uncle Sigmund (or was it Jung, or Fromm...helas...it is all one cloudy backdrop in my head...): -- the images in dreams can stand for words, oft repeated phrases, sayings, familiar expressions, sometimes jokes, or puns. Here is a simple example: last night I dreamt of a cruise ship on which I had book passage, leaving without me. ... When I woke up, I thought ...duuuuuuuuh, this is a dream about **Missing the boat** . Have any cool examples of familiar expressions like that in the tarot cards? Doesn't have to be just in English, if you think of a saying in another language, kindly put the original saying, the totally literal translation, and then the meaning...nothing is so entertaining as the literal translation of a foreign saying-- as in the Spanish: "he doesn't have hair on his tongue" to mean "he doesn't mince words"

Kiama	15 Feb 2003
I'ce always done this, as a means of getting deeper into the cards meanings, and as a way of helping beginners interpret the cards. Often I use clichés for the cards: 'Fools rush in where angels fear to tread' Says the Fool. 'Dare to Know', says the High Priestess (Socrates originally!) 'Round and round it goes... Where it stops, nobody knows!' Wheel of Fortune of Course. I'll dig some more out of my journal when I get home. Kiama

firemaiden	15 Feb 2003
thanks Kiama. That was fun. Here is a sort of obvious one: "The cup runneth over" for the 10 of cups. For the Tarocchi degli Segreti: 8 of Swords, I think, "sights too low" RWS Three of Wands: "Waiting for my ship to come in"

vijeno	15 Feb 2003
Moon: German "Du lebst hinterm Mond!" ("You live behind the moon" = You're far away from reality, you're crazy, not living on planet earth). Lovers: "Liebe macht blind" (Love makes you blind... obvious) Ohhh and Tower: "Wer hoch steht, fällt tief" (You have it in english as well i think... "Who stands high, will fall far" or so...) vijeno

Moongold	15 Feb 2003
Have you given in to metaphor at last, Firemaiden and hiding the capitulation here???? How about: Crying over spilt milk (5 Cups) Too many irons in the fire (10 Wands) She treated me like a pin cushion (3 Swords, 10 Swords) In his cups (7 Cups) Out in the cold (5 Pentacles) Having it both ways (2 Swords) Some of these are so cliched they're hardly even amusing now. Moongold

Eowyn	15 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Crying over spilt milk (5 Cups) She treated me like a pin cushion (3 Swords, 10 Swords) Out in the cold (5 Pentacles) Having it both ways (2 Swords) LOL I will remember them... For The Moon.... moonkissed ;)

MeeWah	15 Feb 2003
FireMaiden: This is a great idea! 2-Cups: Tea for two. 3-Cups: Party hearty. 8-Cups: Taking the high road. 2-Pentacles: Walking a tightrope. 5-Swords: To the victor [goes] the spoils of war. 7-Swords: Finders keepers, losers weepers. 3-Wands: He has the whole world in his hands. (From an old gospel song.) 10-Wands: Putting the nose to the grindstone. 1-The Magician: I did it my way. (From a Frank Sinatra song.)

ihcoyc	15 Feb 2003
Lord, I have one of these for just about each of the cards, and almost all of the minors, it's how I keep them straight. Some of them are fairly short, like the Two of Wands, "Cast thy bread upon the waters. . . (from Ecclesiastes 11, IIRC) and the Three of Wands ("I love it when a plan comes together. . .") Others are longer: the whole Thomas Dolby song, "She Blinded Me with Science" for 7 Swords for instance.

Moongold	15 Feb 2003
"Bleeding heart stories" (3 Swords) A foot in both camps (Star) Fenced in (8 Swords) Moongold

vijeno	16 Feb 2003
My beloved Tarot people, please remember there are people here whose primary language is not english. Mine's german, for example, and I tried to translate and explain the sayings I posted. Hm... I understand about 2/3 of the english sayings and can figure 4/5 of them out somehow. But still... it would be nice if you english speaking folk out there could explain them. Example: "she treated me like a pin cushion" - yes I can guess what it means, but not very precisely. Ok. "A foot in both camps" for the star, I guess that's like "auf zwei Hochzeiten gleichzeitig tanzen" (to dance at two weddings at the same time)? It would be lovely, by the way, to find international phrases for all the cards. Like a multicultural tarot phrase dictionary :-) vijeno Edited to say: PS: ...and it's a nice way to improve my english, by the way, that's another reason why I ask for explanations ;-)

firemaiden	16 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Have you given in to metaphor at last, Firemaiden and hiding the capitulation here???? That's funny Moongold. Perhaps :P I love your sayings, especially, he treats me like a pin cushion! :laugh:

Diana	16 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by vijeno it would be nice if you english speaking folk out there could explain them. Vijeno: the "Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" should be on everyone's bookshelf! It is a treasure. Then there's also the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs (by John Simpson) which is great fun to read as well.

Aoife	16 Feb 2003
Vijeno, here's my understanding of the two sayings: She treated me like a pin cushion [i've never heard this saying before] pincushion - a tool for keeping sharp [dangerous] objects safely in one place. It has to be yielding enough to allow the pins to penetrate yet of firm enough construction to retain the thin, slippery pins and not easily break down from the sharp assaults on it's integrity. To treat someone like a pin cushion says to me that the perpertrator [the sticker-in of pins] has little regard for the hurt caused by being stabbed [with their anger or hurtful actions/ words/ behaviour]. The perpertrator presumes that the receiver of the pins can take it without breaking down. The person representing the pincushion is however likely to see it differently - to feel used and hurt by being assaulted by/ stuck with the sharp pins of the perpertrator's angry or hurtful words/ actions. To have a foot in both camps I suspect derives from the historical enactment of warfare. Two opposing factions, separated and facing one another prior to battle - housed or camped-out in separate 'camps'. To live in one 'camp' implies allegiance to that 'camp's' cause - a willingness to fight for that 'camp's' belief's. To have a foot in both camps says to me that someone may be pretending to be a friend to both camps - maybe each camp is not aware of the person's divided loyalties. [another saying is that someone is or is acting like 'a spy in the camp' - gathering information about the camp that they might give to the other side/ the other camp.] For whatever reason the person does not want to make any enemy of one side or wants to keep their options open - maybe wait and see which 'camp' is most likely to be the winner in battle. It's an opportunist's position but.... if they don't get the timing right they can get caught right in the middle of the battle - friend of none, enemy to both and thereby guaranteed destruction. Another similar saying is that someone is 'sitting on the fence' - that is, unable or unwilling to make their mind up. A powerful position because they can get an overview of both sides from their position high up on the fence. Also may be powerful because the opposing 'camps' will try to persuade the person to climb down off the fence and join their side. But it can be a risky position to take because you have the full support of neither side and both sides may see you as a potential spy. Hope this helps Eve

vijeno	16 Feb 2003
Thanks alot, Aoife! Actually, this was more than I expected. :-) vijeno

Moongold	16 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden That's funny Moongold. Perhaps :P I love your sayings, especially, he treats me like a pin cushion! :laugh: Ah, Firemaiden, I won't give you the raw prawn anymore (Moon). Nor will I up the ante (10 Swords) but you did place yourself in the lion's mouth (Strength). I'd better leave before my ship really comes in (6 Swords). Cheers and blessings, Moonfold eeeerrrrr moonshinesssssssss (4 Cups):laugh:

Moongold	16 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by vijeno My beloved Tarot people, please remember there are people here whose primary language is not english. Mine's german, for example, and I tried to translate and explain the sayings I posted. Sorry vijeno :laugh: Some of these are dreadful Australian slang e.g. "Coming the raw prawn" means having you on, or kind of teasing, joking. "Putting your head in the lion's mouth" is pretty literal e.g you can imagine what happens when you do that, eh? "Upping the ante" means you go from 9 Swords to 10 Swords pretty quickly. "When your ship comes in" means in this instance that you get your just deserts.... and this image could in an ironic sense be seen to depict this.........I don't think that is what the card means though. I can't speak German either but I love the sound of the language. Moongold

Aoife	16 Feb 2003
Doesn't "upping the ante" derive from poker [maybe other card games as well]? As I understand it - it means to make a significantly increased bet - to significantly increase the stakes.

vijeno	17 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Sorry vijeno :laugh: No prob, not at all... just felt the need to remind those privileged english folks :laugh: In fact, I don't envy them. Understanding all those stupid song lyrics all the time can't be fun at all ;-) But to contribute sth on topic as well: How about "veni vidi vici" ("i came saw and won", Julius Caesar, in The Gallic War methinks) for 6 Wands? I also have a very Viennese one for 9 of Cups: "Es wird ein Wein sein, und wir werden nicht mehr sein." ("There will still be wine, but we won't be there anymore" - now, don't ask me just exactly what THAT's supposed to mean... *gg*) vijeno

firemaiden	19 Feb 2003
Here's one I found in the Hanbook to the Tarot by Hajo Banzhaff: "Jeder ist sein Glückes Schmied" = each person is the blacksmith of his own Happiness. English near equivalent: we forge our own destiny...

vijeno	28 Feb 2003
10 Swords: "Die Stunden vor der Morgendämmerung sind die dunkelsten" (The hours before dawn are the darkest) vijeno

temperlyne	28 Feb 2003
Just some dutch additions paarlen voor de zwijnen (pearls for the swines), giving something beutyful to someone who doesn't apreciate it 4 of cups Als de vos de passie spreekt, boer pas op je kippen (when the fox preaches the passion, farmer watch your hens) When a deciever speaks fancy words, watch your back 5/7 swords

firemaiden	01 Mar 2003
Vijeno and Temperlyne, those are very beautiful, very expressive, and go with the cards. These are precious additions to the list, indeed. Thank you.

RedWood	01 Mar 2003
9 of Swords--WAKE UP!! and smell the roses.. Wake up-Get out of the anguished state you are in, tomorrow is another day type thing. Smell the roses--Take a whiff of the beautiful roses but watch for the thorns....Getting out of that situation is a bit touchy but you can do it!

vijeno	27 May 2003
"It's just too good to be true!"

gypsy_morrigan	27 May 2003
How about 6 of Cups = Days of Auld Lang Syne, Robert Burns?

Inana	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by temperlyne paarlen voor de zwijnen (pearls for the swines), giving something beutyful to someone who doesn't apreciate it 4 of cups We have this one in spanish too: Dar diamantes a los cerdos (To give diamonds to the swines). Here are some traditional spanish sayings applied to some cards. The ttranslations are very rough, but im trying my best :P : Strength --> Domar a la bestia (To tame the beast). Meaning is obvious. 8 Swords --> Estar atado de pies y manos (To have tied both feet and hands). Meaning: You cant do any move, you are not able to act on something. 5 Pentacles --> Dios aprieta pero no ahoga (God press but doesnt choke). You can have bad times, but you can manage through it. Something like you dont get more that you can handle. 5 Cups --> Agua que no has de beber, déjala correr. ( Let flow the water you will not drink). This is something like if you cant take profit of something, let it go, someone other will use it. And its also about forget the things you cant do nothing with. 7 Swords --> Se coge antes al mentiroso que al cojo (You catch earlier the liar than the crippled). A liar is always discovered. Queen or Knight of Swords --> Hablando en plata (Speaking in silver). It means to speak honestly and very clearly, usually using harsh and swearwords. Fortune --> Al que fortuna le viste, fortuna le desnuda (Who is dressed by fortune, is naked by fortune). Luck always can change, you cant depend on it. Moon --> Cuando el dedo señala la luna, el bobo mira el dedo (When the finger points to the moon, the silly looks at the finger). To be concentrating only in yourself and not seeing the reality or what is happening and sourronding you. Will try to come with more later. I liked a lot this thread.

firemaiden	29 May 2003
Inana, oooooooooooooooooh! these sayings in Spanish are so colorful, what wonderful images!

DarkElectric	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by vijeno "Es wird ein Wein sein, und wir werden nicht mehr sein." ("There will still be wine, but we won't be there anymore" - now, don't ask me just exactly what THAT's supposed to mean... *gg*) vijeno It's sort of along the lines of "Eat Drink, and be Merry for Tomorrow we die." Humans may come and go, but wine will live forever!

vijeno	30 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric It's sort of along the lines of "Eat Drink, and be Merry for Tomorrow we die." Humans may come and go, but wine will live forever! Hm. Yes, but there also is a little fatalism and sentimentaility in it - not only about death, but also about alcoholism, which is deeply rooted in the Viennese soul... vijeno

The linguistic constructs in the cards?? thread was originally posted on 15 Feb 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.