The 'space between' two cards in one position

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Aoife	15 Feb 2003
I'm not sure whether I should have posted this in 'Using Tarot cards'? I'm just thinking out loud...... Following on from the discussions about to use/not use reversals I'm thinking about trying an experiment to teach me to concentrate more on the effects that cards have on one another. So e.g. for a daily draw of 'issue' and 'challenge' I'm thinking about drawing two cards for each position and concentrating on the interrelationship between the two cards. I'm going to try to arrive at an interpretation which 'lies between' the two cards. Any views?

jema	15 Feb 2003
there are a number of ways to do this. one is to use so called "elemental dignities" that is reading the cards from what element they represent and how those elements would affect eachother. water will weaken fire etc. one of the many sites about ED:s are http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/01basic.htm another way of doing it is by looking for "the missing card" http://jamesriouxctm.tripod.com/tarot/articles/tech3.html and i think there are many many more ways. but these are the two methods i use myself.

Aoife	15 Feb 2003
Jema - thank you! I particularly liked James Rioux's 'blurring the lines' technique. I've fried my brains before trying to comprehend elemental dignities! So to experiment: Issue: 4 of cups ... ennui.. lethargy, apathy... causing one to block/ fail to see/ cut off from/ become dissatsified/ bored with - a significant feeling or relationship. Following a period of shared pleasure and mutual support.... I've lost my way and without change.... I stand to lose, become pessimistic. Unless I take hold of the [cup in the air] I stand to lose its contents and then will be only too aware of the loss leading to regrets and self blame. To examine the 'space between' I drew a second card - The Tower...... OK, whose bright idea was this! .... significant unexpected change.... illumination which clears the way for change.... symbolic of a self-constructed reality which may once have been useful but has now become all/part of the problem. Looking at the 'space between' - visual reaction: buck your ideas up, get moving, keep your feet on the ground or you'll lose your footing and be in for a fall...... Between the calm day, puffy clouds and the lightening storm comes a darkening sky, a building pressure, an oppressive atmosphere. I think the 'blurring the lines' technique provides a far more descrptive analysis. The 'space between' cards I found much harder to do and couldn't get beyond the visual cues. To extend the experiment I tried to predict what card I mjight draw for advice/challenge. I thought it most likely to be an 8 - 'best fit' would probably be 8 of wands. But I also wrote down: Wands: 2, 8. Cups: 8, 10. Pents: 5, 8 and Swords: 6. I drew the 6 of swords!

Khatruman	15 Feb 2003
I really like the missing card and blurring the line techniques. I especially like Rioux's observation about each card carrying a piece of the energy of the cards around it. It is a matter of contextualization, which is true in my field of English. Nothing is isolated but evolved and evolving from that which is around it. This is one of the dangers of relying on book interpretations, it gets one tending to think of cards as isolated in meaning. His example of the six of wands was wonderful, looking at how the victory and acclaim was won. Thanks for posting this link!

Umbrae	15 Feb 2003
I am an old and stuck in my ways. Ride a bike long enough, and a recumbent is not possible, so what follows is opinion. I could never wrap my tired brain around Elemental Dignities, Missing Card, nor Blurring the Lines. I have however read two card positions for quite a while. For me, I attempt not to overcomplicate the issue. Mostly, it is about getting used to the idea. Some, will lay the two cards down face up – on card half covering the other. The fully exposed card is that which is apparent in the significance of the position, the obscured card is that which is not apparent, or is unconscious in nature. Some will read the two cards as one, merging the meanings. How does a five of swords covering a four of pentacles read? You would not look at the individual cards, but their result. To do this, having memorized meanings – a little paragraph you recite for every card – will not work. Think in terms of sculpturing concepts. Or listen…

Aoife	15 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae .....Some will read the two cards as one, merging the meanings. How does a five of swords covering a four of pentacles read? You would not look at the individual cards, but their result.......Think in terms of sculpturing concepts. ....Or listen… Umbrae, thank you! But I'd be really grateful for some additional help here. I'm distracted because I'm linking what you say with a technique I use when working with children to help them expresses concepts/feelings of closeness and distance between family members. I use beach pebbles [or other objects to hand] that the child picks and arranges to 'sculpt' relationships within their family. This gives a graphic illustration of comfort zones and areas of tension. Hypotheses can be tested by moving stones into different positions to gauge the child's reaction. The sculpt can express present/ past / ideal future. Does this bear any relation to what you term 'sculpturing concepts' or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick? It's hard to 'just' listen - too much extraneous noise, too many conflicting voices, self doubts, etc.....etc..... Eve

jamesriouxctm	16 Feb 2003
First of all, thanks to Jema for the shameless plug of my previous writings on this matter. Thanks also to Umbrae for providing an alternate perspective on this matter. I'm the first to admit that some of the techniques I'm developing (the Missing Card/Blurring the Lines is one among many) are not for everyone. A number of my students have found them to be generally useful both in understanding a given reading, and in more deeply probing the meaning of a card. However, this is not to say that these methods are the only way to proceed. Indeed, the whole notion of drawing two cards for a position and then trying to get some kind of meaning that combines them (in mathematical terms we would call this interpolation) is a very interesting one, which I had not considered before. Just because it did not turn out to be as helpful in this example does not mean it can't be useful elsewhere. I'm going to play around with this some more in my own readings when I get an opportunity. The important thing - and I'm sure Umbrae and many others will quickly agree - is that cards can no longer be seen as separate entities, or islands unto themselves. Whether we combine them in terms of symbology or numerology or energy fields or whatever is irrelevant so long as the underlying connections become visible (and usable) in some way that makes sense to the reader. If anyone else has other ideas on how to reliably combine cards, I'm sure a number of us would like to hear them.

jema	16 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Some will read the two cards as one, merging the meanings. How does a five of swords covering a four of pentacles read? You would not look at the individual cards, but their result. i like this a lot too. your example made me instantly think of how this could describe a nasty divorce settlement. "the winner takes it all" so thanks for the post, will ponder this further and do a few two card readings this month:)

Umbrae	16 Feb 2003
Shameless Plug Time! In the thread below, at the end of the essay, I provide a spread I have used for …a while. It uses two cards placed at each position. Some of the follow-up posts ask further questions. Give this spread a try… Some find it complex – but it really depends on how you read http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10197 Quote: Originally posted by jamesriouxctm …that cards can no longer be seen as separate entities, or islands unto themselves. Whether we combine them in terms of symbology or numerology or energy fields or whatever is irrelevant so long as the underlying connections become visible (and usable) in some way that makes sense to the reader… Truly wise words…Personally I think the key to this style of reading, is familiarity. Just keep playing with it – get comfortable breaking the rules…

Aoife	16 Feb 2003
I'm extremely grateful for the chance to hear this discussion. These ideas are pushing beyond the boundaries of my experience and comfort zone so at risk of being a thorough nuisance could I ask for more help? It's not 'merged meanings' that I'm after but the 'space between'. I'm struggling to express what I'm trying to find but it's something like 2+3=6 ..... the sum of the parts is different from but bears some relation to the whole - rather like the child of two parents is different from but related to them. I asked the cards to help me find the space between. I drew 4 of swords half-covered by The Hermit..... and then I listened...... What I wrote down was: 'an idea borne of quiet contemplation could burst forth'... and .... 'you will never gain true wisdom unless you actively immerse yourself in the process - mind, body and spirit'. OK - but it's hard to know what is wisdom and what is just vacuous 'noise'. I drew 2 of pents half-covered by Queen of Pents..... and listened...... I wrote down 'behind every face of confidence lies uncertainty'. So then I asked about how to deal with self-doubt. I drew 5 of Pents half-covered by The Lovers..... and listened... but try as I might I couldn't get away from the view that the cards had given me a reason for my self doubt [the effects of the world on my r'ship with myself] and an answer [love and trust myself to strengthen my r'ship with myself]. Perhaps sometimes the parent cards do not produce a child? Please.... please could someone tell me if I'm on the right track and if not, please give me a new route? Many thanks Eve

The The 'space between' two cards in one position thread was originally posted on 15 Feb 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.