What would you do if you were told this?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jeank74	24 Feb 2003
I am a beginner in tarot, but so far I enjoy studying it since it really gives me an inside look of things around me. Today, I was chatting with my friend on the internet since she is in another city. Then I told her I have been studying tarot recently and, if she needs any help, I will be there for her if I can be at any help. Then she told me that she thinks tarot is "scary" and that I should never be "serious" about what the cards mean. She believes tarot card is only a game for entertaining purposes....... I was at first mad when I read her responses.... However, I didn't write anything back to defense myself and tarot since she has the freedom to choose not to believe in it. Also, she is a Christian so I don't bother to change her spiritual belief. But I am just curious about how others like you would react in that situation? Do you often persuade people to believe in tarot? Thank you for sharing.

Dark Inquisitor	24 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jeank74 Then she told me that she thinks tarot is "scary" and that I should never be "serious" about what the cards mean. She believes tarot card is only a game for entertaining purposes....... she is a Christian so I don't bother to change her spiritual belief. [/b] It would be really funny if you could tell her that the Church is really scary & should never be taken seriously!! You will probably have to prepare yourself for the possibilty that you will lose friends because of the tarot, or that some will write you off as having become mentally imbalanced. Not much you can do about it but find new friends or keep your tarot activity secret if you choose to. As time goes on , it has become too difficult for me to put up with people like your friend who have no problem automatically assuming they are correct because they are a member of a mainstream religion. If I have a choice, I don't want a person like that around me. And in the end, I will only make them uncomfortable if I stick around. Tarotphelia

Woof	24 Feb 2003
I would roll my eyes, say "oy" (to myself of course) and never bring the subject up with her again. I wouldn't end the friendship, I wouldn't try to change her opinion, I'd just let the subject drop. If she brings it up again, I'd explain it in terms of Jungian archetypes and leave it at that. Other people will feel differently, Woof

Eowyn	24 Feb 2003
Dont worry. Some people, by ignorance generally, fears and reject what they dont understand or what is different for/of them. I kept it secretly from some friends, and when I started to say "hey, this is me and my tarot deck " some of them didnt give me any atention, coz they dont believe, but love me... and other were jumping in my bed screaming "read me my cards!!!" Some persons, that love you, sometimes dont find or dont use the correct words to say something, and ofend you. We do that all the time. But if its important for you...just... surprise her sometime!. Read for her and just let her now how is this! Not pushing, but invitation.

Jewel	24 Feb 2003
I absolutly agree with Woof, and it is what I have done in the past (and will do if/when it comes up again). It is really hard to talk people into anything they have their mind made up about already. I am sure there are plenty of other great subjects you and your friend can share. To date I have not lost any friends (or my mother) because of tarot, and I've been working with tarot for 8 years or so ;)

Kyrielle	24 Feb 2003
Jungian archetypes are really useful for fending off other people's odd looks. They make tarot seem very scientific and reason-oriented, and those qualities tend to make people feel safer than do the metaphysical and mysterious qualities. Much of the reason I became interested in the tarot in the first place is because I studied Jungian archetypes in high school and became interested in the ways the archetypes are used in contemporary society. So if you have to explain yourself, mumble something about the collective unconscious and maybe quote Jung or even Joseph Campbell. You could pass yourself off as a grad student in psychology or anthropology if you really needed to! -- Kyrielle

anjocoxo	24 Feb 2003
"friend will be friends when you're in need of love they give you care and attention..." ye, right, the problem is when we start to realize that friends have a very different vision of life... and they think you are "out of your mind", "possessed by the devil" and so on... So far, I've been lucky, but it is normal that some people react the same way your friend did... even though that kind of reaction can bother / sadden you. After all, a friend shouldn't be so hasty in judging another... You just have to follow your instincs I guess. Maybe you should drop it, and forget about it, just like woof said. But if your friends starts to bring the subject every single minute, always trying to change your mind, leading you to "the true path" (= catholic path), then you have to put a stop to it. You can always try to explain it to her, but ususally that kind of people will not change their minds, unfortunately. Anyway, good luck.... :D Anjo

jeank74	24 Feb 2003
thank you all for the insightful suggestions. she is a good friend of mine. so i respect her opinion on my tarot "practice." but i won't bring this subject up when she is present, nor I would do a reading for her privately. the reading shows me something she should be awared of, I won't be able to hide the information from her. being a good person I am, I want all of my friends and family living happily as much as possible. the reason why I mentioned about my tarot learning to her today is because I know she has been through a lot lately. it was only my way of reaching her and helping her out. if she shuts the door, well, I have tried already. :P studing tarot is not only for self-help it is also an interest of mine. being a scorpio, I am very attracted to the mystical power in the universe. :)

isthmus nekoi	24 Feb 2003
I've never persuaded ppl into accepting tarot, but I have had to persuade others into accepting *me* accepting tarot :P But like others, I'll just drop it. Just a word of warning about Jung. His theories, at least in the academic world have fallen *greatly* out of favour; mainstream academia in the social sciences and humanities usually fall into the poststructuralist/semiotics camp. The psychology world has long since shifted towards behaviouralism (think Pavlov's dogs) and Jungian/Freudian ideas are now totally suspect; they're criticized for being essentialist - the ultimate slander in postmodern discourse. Jung in particular, has never enjoyed the 'scientific' status of Freud, and some ppl view him as a new age mystical crackpot. Don't get me wrong, I respect Jung's work a lot, and think very highly of his theories, but there is definetely a prejudice out there against him as many groups have appropriated his work and twisted it out of context. I also find it difficult to believe that Jung holds any kind of scientific currency (ie. 'proof' that tarot works) for the general public these days despite the fact that he was a very scientific man. My advice would be to make sure that the person is accepting of Jung before you quote him!!

cheekyminx	25 Feb 2003
I don't bring the issue up, nor do my friends. If a person asks or is asking me for advice on something then I tell. But in time her view may change. A few friends of mine went to see a very good Tarot reader & were surprised with what she had to say, this lead to them opening up a little & welcoming tarot/spiritualism into their lives, not so much to say that they 100% believe in, but are more open to differences & understanding how it works. (does that make sense?) I read cards for two new friends of mine & both were surprised with what I told them. Both said it was fascinating & accurate. How can someone that knows nothing about me answer my question (Mind you I didn't ask them what their question was)Both are now open to Tarot & do not disbelieve in it. It wasn't until I picked up one of the girls grand parents (another reading, weeks after) that her view is changing & she's more understanding & open. She was surprised as I said "your paternal grand mother, your dads mum?" She said "yes. Odd that, my mum & were talking about her during lunch today. I'm glad she's around me" Little things like this can change a persons view....

temperlyne	25 Feb 2003
I've never had to defend myself and tarot to my friends.. but I did have troubles with a lover. He was a very scientific, rational man and kept telling me that tarot was an insult to my intelligence. That hurt. Eventually I got him to loose some of his aggresive attack on tarot by telling him that I studied it mainly for the symbolic art. Ofcourse this relationship could not last, we just looked at the world from completely diffrent angles. We are friend now and just never bring up anything metaphysical. NOw that I do not share my life with him anymore, I'm not bothered about not being able to share tarot.

Kiama	25 Feb 2003
My parents used to think the same as your friend. To get around this, I simply explained to them how I think Tarot works, and what it can be used for. Since I use it mainly for advice readings and a form of counselling, there is no excuse for them to say that it is silly, cuz the cards aren;t giving any hard-and-fast answers about when people are gonna have babies, get married, what they're gonna be career-wise. it has been my experience that many people get scared of Tarot cuz they don't understand it's many uses, and they assume it is there merely to tell the future, which is something many have a problem with. Once they understand however that it does have other uses, they usually change their belief slightly about what Tarot really is... Kiama

firemaiden	25 Feb 2003
My boyfriend who is catholic, was pretty nervous about this stuff, especially when he saw the "devil worship" insignia in the tarot store...but then Napea did past life readings for me, he was so amazed by what he perceived to be its accuracy, that he begged and begged me for a past life reading from her too! I was floored! You never know...

pozt	25 Feb 2003
If my friend made fun of me because of my cards, I would bite them. :D

Trogon	25 Feb 2003
Well... I guess in many ways, I'm like others here and yet different in a couple others. Wow, now there's a surprise! :eek: :D Anyway, I feel that Tarot is part of who I am now. And, since that is the case, it is up to my friends to accept me for who I am. I do not expect my friends to alter their beliefs to suit me, nor would I reject them out of hand as friends if I suddenly discovered their belief system were different from what I assumed it to be. I expect the same sort of respect from them. Don't get me wrong. If someone wants to ask me about Tarot, or crystals, or pendulums, or God, or Jesus, or war, or nuclear weapons, or space exploration, or death, or life, or over-population, or the environment, or birds, or prospecting, or chess.... etc... etc... etc.... Anyway, I don't mind having a rational discussion with friends or acquaintances on just about any topic. By exchanging ideas and discussing things we can grow as people. , if they only want to proselytize or condemn me or ridicule me... as far as I'm concerned they can take a long walk off a short pier and have no problem telling them as much. Now... having ranted my rant... ;) If one of my friends were to react in such a way as you describe ("then she told me that she thinks tarot is 'scary' and that I should never be 'serious' about what the cards mean. She believes tarot card is only a game...") I would probably explain to her why I disagreed with her and explain my point of view on the hows and whys that Tarot works. I might point out that, no, I don't believe that a deck of Tarot cards have any "evil power" and that they are a tool for me to tap into my own intuition, my subconscious, etc... I would also point out that I have seen the Tarot reveal many things to people... things they've buried in their own subconscious, hidden feelings, supressed memories, etc. And, if questioned about being a satanist, or a witch, I might say that an interest in Tarot does not necessarily negate a person being a Christian. And that a person being a Wiccan, or Druid, or any other non-mainstream religion, does not mean that they're going to be doing Tarot. Of course this will probably end up leading into a conversation on religious freedom, diversity, acceptance of others, etc, as well... ;) I actually have had several such conversations with my friends on these very topics and many others in a similar vein. I have found that if a person truly is a friend, she or he will accept me for who I am and not try to force their belief system on me. By the same token, while the offer is always there for my friends, I will not force a reading onto one of my friends. I might do a reading on myself to see how I might be able to help a friend in need, but would not presume to do one on them. My friends like me for who I am... if a person doesn't like me... it's no skin off my back. But I've been around a while... I've had friends who've died, lost track of friends, had friends who've turned against me, gained many new friends and have many friends now (including many here at A.T.!). And, while it might be painful to lose a friend (especially over something like my belief system - or theirs), I know that I still have many friends and will gain new ones along my journey. I sure hope this ramble of mine has been of some help, Jean. (Now where the heck is the spell-check button???) ;)

Aerin	25 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi The psychology world has long since shifted towards behaviouralism (think Pavlov's dogs) Had to just say something here: behaviourism has fallen out of favour in psychology at least in the strict Skinnerian sense for some time now, and there has been/ is a great deal of criticism of reductionist experimental psychology especially (I think it is fair to say) in Europe. I'm doing a social psychology course at the moment, and experimental psychology is just a small part of that: psychodynamic theory forms another section (it's moved a long way from Freud) and there are a few other approaches considered, all perfectly respectable and not relying on the so-called 'natural sciences' approach. Jungian psychotherapy is still on the map for a lot of people. However, you do need to be careful when talking Jung: I believe that some US companies were warned off Myers Briggs because 'it was based on Jung's ideas and he was involved in the occult'. Even if you want to just appeal to cognitive psychology, Tarot can be 'explained' by pointing out how our brains access all sorts of information in response to a stimulus, and Tarot appears to be a very good stimulus. Possibly because the pictures are just so rich in symbolism. Aerin ps I agree with everyone else. Don't try and get someone else to believe in anything (think how it is when someone tries to persuade you of something you don't believe in). If they want to know, they'll ask.

Karenwhe	25 Feb 2003
I have learnt to keep my hobbies and beliefs to myself not because of tarot but because of religion actually. I also have a habit of telling people my beliefs when I am comfortable and know them well enough and they know me well enough. This way I never lost a friend. By the time I told them they accepted it as they knew me and who I was and did not judge me on my hobbies or my beliefs or my religion (which by the way is Roman Catholic, but where I grew up there aren't any of those). This way I prevent the creation of the proverbial "storm in a tea cup". Karen

jlbvt	25 Feb 2003
ok. Your friend said the cards were "scary". She did not, however, say "the cards are evil and they will give your soul to the devil." She said not to take what they say seriously - she did not say, "the cards are wrong, and what they tell you is the devil's message." So here's my take, even though I don't know your friend. I think she is interested, but she doesn't want to admit it because of her ingrained religious beliefs. Her church probably says that consulting an oracle is wrong in the eyes of God... that's a big reason for her to be against it. THe fact that she didn't run screaming when you mentioned it is a good sign that she may, in the long run, be open to learning about Tarot. ;)

jlbvt	25 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by pozt If my friend made fun of me because of my cards, I would bite them. :D Which cards do you have? I will be careful not to talk about them ;)

isthmus nekoi	25 Feb 2003
oh yes, behaviouralism has come a long way thankfully :) These days, in Ontario at least, a sort of medley of treatments is usually prescribed, a combo of different schools, but the emphasis is on what the stats support (ie who's getting grant $ ie not Jung based studies). Maybe Toronto swings more to the reductionist, stats based side as this promotes the use of pharmaceuticals - *very* lucrative market. Jungian psychoanalysis is practiced in Toronto, but is not supported by the provincial government health plan (and I imagine elsewhere in Canada), and usually not by company plans etc.

Alex	25 Feb 2003
isthmus nekoi It somewhat depends on what side of the ocean you are, and which side of the equator as well. I mean, whether you accept Jung's "psychology" or even the Freudian school of psychoanalysis and it's branches. Many people seem to mention behaviorism as a replacement to psychoanalytic ideas but it is a misconception. Psychology has a different history; it has evolved separately. Psychological theories for most part are not in conflict with psychoanalytical theories. It's just that psychoanalytical theories do not lend themselves to scientific test as easily. That's all. They are almost impossible to test. But saying that behaviorism has replaced Freudian school is a shallow statement that is not based in reality. AND Pavlov is past in the history of psychology to the same extent that Jung is past in the history of psychoanalysis. Alex.

firemaiden	26 Feb 2003
I have two friends who are psychologists. One lives in Paris, and one in Berlin. They both say that what is in NOW in is cognitive, cognitive, cognitive...

Aoife	26 Feb 2003
I'm at the 'jobbing' end of all of this and often feel out of touch with new academic trends. But the flavour of the last few years has been, as Firemaiden says, cognitive behavioural therapy. There's a mood afoot, on the ground, that useful as this has been - particularly in addressing the 'Woody Allen Syndrome' aka the need for therapy for many years/ lifetime therapy - that the pendulum is about to swing back towards more psychodynamic thinking. Personally, I still find much use in systemic thinking - the person's interaction with both her/his internal and external environment. But then I'm about 'the doing' rather than 'the theorising'.

dolphingirl	26 Feb 2003
Hi I would def decide if youwant to keep tarot to yourself or if you want to share your love of tarot with this person. Also if you think this person is so set into her ways that she can't tollerate your interrest :( How good of a friend is this person as a friend may not like something that I do but I hope that they will respect my ideas, thoughts, and beliefs even if they are different DolphinGirl

WolfSpirit	26 Feb 2003
Well I must say I can't blame people for not taking tarot seriously. When I first came in touch with a divination deck (it was not tarot, it was a Mlle Lenormand deck which is traditionally popular around here) I did not show much respect to it }) It happenend when a friend of mine moved into a house where an old lady had lived. Her old couch was still there; when we tried to move it a deck of cards fell out of it with a LWB. So we started doing readings "just for fun". However, for her the fun was over when she did a reading for her father and she got cards like the cross, coffin, snake... Although she said the cards were just nonsense, these cards still frightened her. I think this is what I see a lot around here. It is not a very christian community, they will not call the cards "of the devil", just not take them seriously, until they get scary cards, that frightens them. I guess they do not know whether to believe it or not. Well as you all know I did get to take tarot seriously but I took the bypass route :D But what I want to say: I understand people prejudices I had them myself. So I will not just tell someone: I use tarot I would start with telling them I do meditation and use cards as an aid (this is not lying it is just half the truth ;)) that way I can explain all these decks in my house and when I tell them I read cards I'll make sure to tell them it is not fortune telling it is a way to help me understand myself better. I would only tell people I get along well with and they already know something about my spiritual interests. People I don't know well enough I just don't tell.

Aerin	26 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife I'm at the 'jobbing' end of all of this and often feel out of touch with new academic trends. But the flavour of the last few years has been, as Firemaiden says, cognitive behavioural therapy. There's a mood afoot, on the ground, that useful as this has been - particularly in addressing the 'Woody Allen Syndrome' aka the need for therapy for many years/ lifetime therapy - that the pendulum is about to swing back towards more psychodynamic thinking. Personally, I still find much use in systemic thinking - the person's interaction with both her/his internal and external environment. But then I'm about 'the doing' rather than 'the theorising'. I like systemic thinking too :). Other than that I mostly subscribe to what works, and I like having different perspectives to consider. I am most suspicious of the pharmaceutical approach especially when taken in isolation from the whole person/ family. But then I'm an NLP'er so I would say that wouldn't I :). Aerin

isthmus nekoi	26 Feb 2003
Alex, I think you've misinterpreted my post: to reiterate, nowadays, a *medley* of different is usually the prefered mode of treatment: ie Jungian dream analysis, behavioural cognitive role playing, precription drugs all working together. And yes, I agree, they're not inherently in conflict. I have *never* said behaviouralism has or will replace psya. There are thriving Freudian/Jungian practices in the city. However, they're not supported by OHIP (provincial health plan) so you have to be in a certain income margin to afford it. In contrast, beh-cog *based* approaches (ie not purely beh-cog) are covered by OHIP and offered by more company insurance plans, schools etc thereby making it much more accessible and affordable to the public. b/c psya is less easily substantiated w/stats, it's viewed as less reliable (fair enough assessment when there's serious tax dollars on the line). That's what I mean by saying it's shifting away from psya in TO; psya alone as treatment is time consuming and viewed as not being cost effective enough. I think the shift is largely driven by economics. p.s. For ppl unfamiliar w/the term behaviouralism, Pavlov's studies is perhaps the easiest known link which is why I mentioned him, not to suggest that behaviouralism is based solely on his work.

sagitarian	26 Feb 2003
coming out of the closet on any issue that may seem taboo, wether it be that your gay, psychic, or otherwise, is always really hard for others to accept. Usually, a person is the way they are for a while before presenting this inner being of theirself to others. Others sometimes haven't a clue on how to react due to you've been this way for some time, and they are just now aware of it, like it happend over night. That alone shows courage and strength and I applaud you on that. It is difficult though to hear the criticism, and to be outcasted from those you love. However, it's also due to their love for you of why they give you the criticism. I also applaud you on not trying to push tarot on her, or argue about it. It is something that you understand, and have a relationship with, just as she has her relationship with God. Neither is right or wrong, only what is right for you. When I get to know someone to a certain degree, I usually at some point discuss religion and what they believe, and eventually they ask what do you believe. So I tell them and include tarot in there some where. They either have two reactions, 1. OH WOW, will you do a reading for me some time? how much do you charge? or 2. Isn't that like talking to the devil or something, or evil? I then explain it to them that either, I don't charge, and would be happy to do a reading for them some time...or I explain what tarot is as I understand it. In the case that you were in, I would just smile and understand that her beliefs are different. Don't take offense to some one who loves you as a friend, just smile and think to yourself that she is special to you too, and if you thought she was doing something dangerous or silly that you would express your concern to her as well. I find it easier to embrace those that care enough to criticise then it is to argue due to my own stubborness. I think you handled it great on your own!

isthmus nekoi	27 Feb 2003
Ah, please excuse the terse tone of my earlier post. Having my observations deemed as 'shallow' by a someone who I don't know personally seemed too forward to me, although I'm sure that wasn't the intention. Now that it's been mentioned, there definetely is a popular counter shift towards holistic healing which sometimes encorporates Jungian thought, which is good for balance. *sigh* unfortunately, in terms of theoretical discourse in the humanities, psya is even more unpopular and showing no signs of being redeemed; everything I've read about Jung/Freud in school lately has been very critical in the negative sense. :( Even Lacan isn't faring so well these days! Maybe we'll just have to wait a little later for the tides to turn there! But getting back to the original question... I think how you handle fear of tarot really depends on the situation you find yourself in. Tarot can represent something powerful that often doesn't fit into ppl's world views and that can be very very scary. Anything that has potential power that is not understood can be viewed as threatening. So, sometimes, the knee jerk reaction is just to supress that power, ignore it etc. It's a part of human nature. Unless there are good reasons to refrain, I'd kindly suggest being patient when person is a friend as you never know when you might find yourself in a similar position!

The What would you do if you were told this? thread was originally posted on 24 Feb 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.