Atheist?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mirja crimson	19 Mar 2003
Can you believe in Tarot and still be an atheist? Tell me what you think!!!

firemaiden	19 Mar 2003
LOL, mirja crimson, this subject is very dear to my heart! I began a thread on with a similar question when I first started seriously posting here: Here is the thread. do you have to believe in Tarot for it to work It was generally decided that you could believe in Tarot, and still be an aetheist, or you could be an aetheist, and not even believe in tarot, and it would still work. What you are asking, of course, is a little different, I think you are asking if there is a conflict between being an aetheist and believing in Tarot... As a card carrying aetheist, who is slowly coming to believe more in tarot, I have to say, I have an underlying suspicion, that yes, there is a kind of conflict, and that eventually, with deepening interest and exploration of the tarot, you will come to experience some things that will make it more difficult to be a card carrying aetheist. Currently, I have suspended my judgement on both sides, and am enjoying the ride, so to speak, of seeing where this takes me. It is turning out to be a rather wild ride. I will be very interested to see how your ideas may evolve over the next few months. (assuming of course, that you were talking about yourself...)

zorya	19 Mar 2003
firemaiden, perhaps you are becoming less an athiest and more of an agnostic?

Khatruman	19 Mar 2003
To re-open this discussion, I think it is important first for us to come to a consensus on what atheism means. Does it mean a dis-belief in a God/Goddess (or plural)? Or does it mean a dis-belief in any higher controlling power? Could an atheist believe, as I have more and more these days, a sort of Jungian collective power that isn't a separate deity, but which resides in pieces throughout all beings in our material world? I have found many atheists to really be rebelling against many organized religions' propounding a deity who is controlling, vengeful, tyrannical, etc., which is merely a projection of that religion's need to control its congregation. I have no problem feeling I am a follower of Christ's teachings but seeing the higher power as the collective spirit within all living beings, not a bearded man on a throne in the sky. All knowing? of course, it's in all of us so it is the sum of all knowledge. All seeing? of course, it is the sum of all our vision. All powerful? Definitely, when the life force of many gets together for a common goal, it is nearly impossible to stop. So what is atheism?

firemaiden	19 Mar 2003
Well, I think it can be established pretty much that atheist doesn't even mean disbelieving in God, because to an atheist there is nothing to disbelieve in...LOL Madalyn Murray O’Hair 1962 founder of American Aetheists defines Aetheism this way: Quote: Atheism is based upon a materialist philosophy, which holds that nothing exists but natural phenomena. There are no supernatural forces or entities, nor can there be any. Nature simply exists. . Remember, materialism here, has nothing to do with the modern American meaning for this word, rather it refers to the philosophy first defined I think by Denis Diderot in the Enlightenment period. Am I more of an agnostic now? Agnostic means I don't know? I don't know....LOL Khatruman, I thought I could also comfortably say I could follow Christ's teachings, until one day I began receiving daily quotes in email from the " teachings of Christ". And I must admit, contrary to my expectations, I am finding many of these quotes abhorrent.... sorry. I expected to hear uplifting things about being how to be good person... disappointingly, it is all about the after life, and stuff. Not happy with this. I am rebelling against nothing. I grew up with nothing. I pretty much always assumed that aetheism is the natural state of mind when no God concept has been taught... Then I left the the bubble of existentialist Berkeley.... The irony of materialism, is that is has its roots in Descartes, whose aim was to "prove" the existence of God. He proved it, for him, but he also paved the way for thinking there was something to prove or disprove...which led us to Diderot and Voltaire...

firemaiden	19 Mar 2003
IN response to the jungian thing...yes and no. I think there is an aspect of materialism that ressembles pantheism -- that sees God nowhere, but at the same time, everywhere, as in all material - material breathes. Plants think and have souls. This I remember reading in Diderot. This is pretty much what Major Tom says. Hence, my Cosmic Toaster is God... Let me get back to you on this. Here is a good essay on philosophical materialsm beginning with Democritus and Epicurus. Getting back on pantheism: no sorry: it seems (reading this site if you read frog: about Diderot the materialism of Diderot excludes all panthéisme, and by the same token, any transcendental intervention... The enlightenment pantheist was his pal Jean-Jaques Rousseau. see this site on Jean-Jacques and pantheism..

Khatruman	19 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Khatruman, I thought I could also comfortably say I could follow Christ's teachings, until one day I began receiving daily quotes in email from the " teachings of Christ". And I must admit, contrary to my expectations, I am finding many of these quotes abhorrent.... sorry. I expected to hear uplifting things about being how to be good person... disappointingly, it is all about the after life, and stuff. Not happy with this. I know what you mean, and that you tell me you received "quotes" tells me a lot about what's going on. The message has been so corrupted by Christians who take out "sound bites" from the Bible. That is what we call them now, like that is something we invented. Spanish Inquisitors to Skin Heads have quoted the Bible to justify their messages. The problem is something that original Protestants stressed as important when reading Scripture: CONTEXT. Taken out of context, most any message can be made to say what you want it to. As soon as someone says, "Well, the Bible says... " I turn off. Give me the spirit of the message. Sorry, fire-vixen, but I cannot discuss philosophical treatise. I am afraid I am not versed enough in it. And frankly, I do not want to be versed in it. It is categorization. There is a great anecdote that Rachel Pollack uses in Forest of Souls about how the God Osiris is killed by being measured. Seth and his band measure him as he sleeps, build a beautiful box at just his size, and trick him at a party game, to see if he would fit. Then they seal him in, throw him in the Nile, and thus he suffocates.. By being limited in his possibilities, the god suffocates. Philosophers, for all good intentions, attempt to limit and define experience. I wish to see my own possibilities because, well, the world is how one sees it. For myself, I cannot see it as merely material. That these thoughts, that the power of changing the world through a collection of people doesn't have some greater collective power behind it. That there is just too much to be explained by materialism. I look at Christ's message, not some quote he said to some Jewish rabbi who was worried more about his phylactery than with what love of his fellow man meant, but at the whole message of understanding, acceptance, and love in the spirit of the whole, that still is deeply there despite millenia of translation, interpretation, and misuse.

firemaiden	19 Mar 2003
Yeah, Khat, I know what you mean. I like that part in The Forest of Souls. I think we were looking for a definition of aetheism. So that is where the definition thing comes in. The emailed snips were not sent with any agenda other than to know what he actually supposedly said.

Inana	20 Mar 2003
To me be atheist is simply to believe there's no god or superior power. About the question: could you believe in tarot and still be atheist? I think you can even if not believeing in nothing supernatural. You can see tarot like a tool to communicate with your subconsciouss and being it as a process to develop your intuition. From this point of view, tarot has more to be with psychologic issues than spiritual ones. Anyways, i think its easier to believe in tarot if you believe in something else. This have been a conflict to me. I dont believe in a god/ess in the traditional way of being it a entity appart that rules our lives. So, for some reason i started to believe in a cosmic or universal energy that its everywhere and also inside of us. After understanding this, is when i've been able to return to tarot (i started time ago, but left it because it was laking of meaning while i was believing in nothing). Now that i believe in some form of energy, you can call it god if you want, tarot has more meaning and more depth. Well... its just my experience. Hope it servers as an answer.

Macavity	20 Mar 2003
Deleted as a regretable and pointless exercise... Macavity

Astraea	20 Mar 2003
I do not think that it is necessary to believe in a deity in order for tarot to "work"; tarot is a useful tool for self-discovery, on whichever levels one understands that term. I do think that readings are impoverished without some sort of philosophical context in which to place them, whether humanistic or theological. Tarot helps one to open one's mind and grow, and as that process unfolds, one's beliefs might either be reinforced, or change; openness to authentic personal unfoldment (wherever that might lead) is one of the most helpful avenues of approach to the cards, and to life.

jmd	20 Mar 2003
Irrespective as to whether one is an atheist, agnostic, or a strong believer in any specific religion, discussions of and about the Tarot is certainly possible. I suppose that for myself, one of the aspects I find intriguing is precisely the various approaches one can have in investigating Tarot's various attributes - the approaches may certainly reflect one's (current) position, but I wonder how fixed the position is for each of us? It seems that the good-will and open-ness and willingness of and from members of this community have in deepening their looking into Tarot (in its various manifestations and uses) can only increase the penetrative insight into not only history, iconography and psychology, but also into the nature of the world in general. After all, if a card is 'randomly' chosen (say the Ace of Swords) repeatedly regarding a particular issue, then even the greatest puzzled skeptic must question what could be happening - and statistics, I suggest, would only satisfy the hardened heart. Rather, as one's heart opens in the very investigation of Tarot, one becomes transformed and open to the Mysterium of the universe. Does this impact one's scepticism? It cannot but do so. Does it impact upon one's fundamental views of the world (atheism, materialism, pantheism, etc)? Undoubtedly, though not necessarily with the same force, for rather, it seems that human nature is such that one will seek to understand events by altering the least from one's current belief system... yet, deep within, I doubt a constrained view of the world remains. Rather, an opening to possibilities beyond the previously delineated framework unfolds.

Marion	21 Mar 2003
I have read all of the replies, which I found of great interest and thoughtfulness. I keep coming back to the original question, does the tarot 'work' if you do not believe that there is a spiritual power behind it. In other words, can you consider a question, shuffle, lay the cards and read them to get a meaningful answer? To me it is sort of like visiting a beautiful cathredral, or other great work of art inspired in its creation by spirituality. Reading a poem about the poet's feelings about higher matters. Certainly, yes, you can use the tarot and get meaningful answers. I think it works regardless of your belief set. And there are certainly many belief sets present here. Two things might happen in reading the tarot, as in experiencing the cathredral, the art, the poem. The tarot may subtly work on your spirit to change your mind or cause you to at least consider a force that could inspire the creation of such wonders. Or you may choose to accept that it just works, no explanations needed. You may choose to see that the cathedral, the work of art, the poem exist and that you admire their beauty and nothing more needs to be said. Either way is fine, and either way lets you live your life.

Diana	21 Mar 2003
The Zero Point Field. "An ocean of microscopic vibrations which appear to connect everything in the universe like some invisible web." "A field of unimaginably large quantum energy in the space bewtween things". "Here, in so-called "dead" space, lay the very key to life itself: to cell communication, to DNA, to strange effects like ESP or spiritual healing and even to that most elusive notion: the collective unconscious." The above are quotes from "The Field - The Quest for the Secret Force of The Universe", by Lynne McTaggart. It is book that is absolutely non-religious, non-spiritual. Based on scientific facts and goes into the recent discoveries of scientists to explain how all things are inter-connected. A very serious book - not one of those crazy kind of books that one puts down with a shrug and a grimace. No need to believe in God, see? The scientists are discovering explanations for those who do not believe in any supranatural power. If the scientific discoveries continue, then Tarot will soon be explained scientifically. That doesn't mean that people who believe that it's a supranatural power that guides the universe will have to throw away their beliefs. But it will make everyone satisfied! :)

Khatruman	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Zero Point Field. "An ocean of microscopic vibrations which appear to connect everything in the universe like some invisible web." "A field of unimaginably large quantum energy in the space bewtween things". "Here, in so-called "dead" space, lay the very key to life itself: to cell communication, to DNA, to strange effects like ESP or spiritual healing and even to that most elusive notion: the collective unconscious." ....No need to believe in God, see? The scientists are discovering explanations for those who do not believe in any supranatural power. If the scientific discoveries continue, then Tarot will soon be explained scientifically. That doesn't mean that people who believe that it's a supranatural power that guides the universe will have to throw away their beliefs. In truth, Diana, to me it confirms my spirituality. In any posts I make on God and the supreme spirit, THIS is exactly what I see as the great spiritual force, this field of energy. I don't think science here is disputing a spiritual force, it is finally measuring it!!! What many who do not see any deep controlling force often see is a total randomness to the universe. Darwinians, who put themselves as opposed to Christians, see life as evolving. I don't see, frankly, an opposition. I do see that life evolves, but I find it ludicrous to believe that is through random freak mutation. Look at the gifts that nature's creatures possess, and I don't see how they came about merely through accidental mutation. The process of change is indeed slow, but there is a presence behind it. Also, this connecting force disputes randomness. If it is, as the metaphor implies, a web-like connection, well, then anything that affects one strand of this web resonates through the whole web. We ARE connected deeply. In terms of tarot, and divination, it gives a new connection to randomness, which is a key act of divination. All divinatory systems use the concept of "randomness": in Tarot, we draw "random" cards, we give up our control and, if there is no connection, then most times it becomes meaningless. That what we get from this giving up control becomes meaningful almost ALL the time says something about connection. I am hoping more research like this will work to connect religion and science in the future, rather than this battle in our world that puts them as opposing forces. Peace

Inana	21 Mar 2003
This last two posts are very interesting. That kind of energy its very close to the idea i was trying to explain in my first post. Believing in something like this makes tarot have more sense,at least to me, than if you not believe in absolutely nothing: no connections, no energies, etc... In another hand, do you think that this universal energy can be assimiled to the concept of god? I mean to see god like life energy surrounding the world, not like a diferent entity above all things. Just trying to mix here science and spirituality.

Khatruman	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Inana In another hand, do you think that this universal energy can be assimiled to the concept of god? I mean to see god like life energy surrounding the world, not like a diferent entity above all things. Just trying to mix here science and spirituality. THAT's exactly how I see the higher spirit now...not a separate being.. but within and around us... everything works so much better if you feel that. You said it succinctly, right there!

firemaiden	21 Mar 2003
B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O AND BINGO IS ITS NAME OH B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O AND BINGO IS ITS NAME OH

Diana	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Inana In another hand, do you think that this universal energy can be assimiled to the concept of god? Why not, if this fits in with your belief system. On the other hand, I think if one doesn't believe in God, then it explains things very nicely as well. firemaiden: what on earth are you talking about? :confused: :D

Khatruman	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O AND BINGO IS ITS NAME OH B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O B--,I--,N-G-O AND BINGO IS ITS NAME OH Pleasing to correct you, miss vixen of the fire... it is bin GOH, the humble Cheetzat bin GOH, sidekick to the Supreme but humble Swami Hashish (:P)

firemaiden	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana firemaiden: what on earth are you talking about? :confused: :D Miss Vixen of the Fire, she say, I am pleasing to be clarifying to you, wise Diana. The great Bin Goh, side-keek to ze wize and (we're mutating to a french from an indian accent here but what the hey) terrible Swami Bagworm Scream Hashish, that Cheetzah bin Goh, he heet ze nail on ze hed, and he mek me sing zees happy song, about ze great bin Goh!

Khatruman	21 Mar 2003
Thee humble bin GOH is believing that, not only are we having a tedible time wid de occents, we have now ben affecting dee regular boards wid our silliness. Dees poor non-subscribing peeple will be having GREAT trouble getting thah references!!! Time for de wize Swami Bagworm to make hees appearance.

Icestorm	22 Mar 2003
What on earth are you jibbering about? Hmm... could be divine intervention? Striking madness into the hearts of those atheists!! (j/k)

firemaiden	22 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Icestorm Hmm... could be divine intervention? Striking madness into the hearts of those atheists!! (j/k) Icestorm: BINGO! You must be clairvoyant. I hadn't understood exactly what had become of my aetheist heart/mind, and now it has all been revealed in your lightening-bolt like words!

MST	27 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Zero Point Field. "An ocean of microscopic vibrations which appear to connect everything in the universe like some invisible web." "A field of unimaginably large quantum energy in the space bewtween things". "Here, in so-called "dead" space, lay the very key to life itself: to cell communication, to DNA, to strange effects like ESP or spiritual healing and even to that most elusive notion: the collective unconscious." Lynne McTaggart. There is a lot of playful dialogue in this thread. The original question was interesting. "God" triggers ideas of a (supreme) being with a personality in many people. When you want people to define what they believe in clear terms many people get wishy washy. They are unable to articulate their belief illustrating their inexperience in thinking it through (a very personal and subjective subject embeded with emotion and the foundation of their existence for many). When asked what do you mean when using a particular word or term they often come up with a definition that is inconsistent with conventional meanings. If the above quote is the agreed upon condition that allows Tarot to work it might help using a different term -especially "God" with a capitalized G. Having said this, considering the role of archetypes and symbolism throughout history and presently in the human psyche are we making up a story to explain this "Zero Point Field" or does the ZPF exist as the environment for the archetypes and symbolism to reflect truth? I know my own attempt to use these terms is not perfect but I hope my question is clear enough to understand. I don't think this is like asking, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" I think it can be answered. I think as human beings we demonstrate an expression in the form of a personality. It seems unlikely that we would be unique. There is evidence nature mirrors itself and that there are laws working in harmony to create this whole thing (whatever you name it). It is quite possible that this idea of a ZPF leaves room for consciousness and a personality at either its core, its source or as a whole (we can see this play out in group consciousness and mob consciousness). Getting back to Tarot, the images and symbolism illustrate how certain energy produces different condtions, behaviors and events in and around our lives. At the root of any action is energy. We can all agree that as humans we all share in behaviors and most of us have desires to sustain our lives, perhaps procreate in the form of children, creative arts, ideas, etc. We share basic needs and desires. The Tarot imagery serves to illustrate how this energy may manefest in a human life. It is not necessary to believe in all of the symbolism -particularly a single godlike persona. The energy can be experienced in any number of forms if you do not happen to believe in this one. It is a suggestion of how this might show up and it is not intended to be so accurate as to be able to be taken literally image for image. Ideally you would eventually rely less on the cards and more on your intuition.

The Atheist? thread was originally posted on 19 Mar 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.