authority, guide, leader, maharishi, master, sage, swami, teacher

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

GreaterSecrets	04 Mar 2003
I post this with trepidation and hope this message is read with the spirit intended. I'd like to suggest an idea, while not unheard of, seems to be not as widely thought of as a proper approach in this venue. At least in my searches of this forum I have not found very much discussion of this topic but in one thread. And despite the fact I may get a number of opposing responses I feel the need to place this gentle reminder. That is, when embarking upon the task of learning Tarot, a guide is necessary. I do not say this lightly. Many of you will flinch at this remark but I say this with all due respect to the effort that many of you have put into getting you this far. Yes, some of you do not wish to hear this or do not accept this, that is fine; you may succeed. This admonition is then not meant for you. You can ignore this old crank. My mentor once said that generally most individuals who are self taught executed the "craft" well. She called them "Gypsies" and "Fortune Tellers". She said they had their place in the world but that a teacher was a most important ingredient to the true practitioner. Amongst many of the reasons I can expound upon for this line of reasoning, one immediately comes to mind; my mentor once said "Be careful that your feelings do not cloud your intuition". I've been reading many dialogs here on this wonderful forum. Many of which bring up words like feelings and intuition. Feelings are a susceptibility to emotional response. That's right you get emotional, possibly an emotional attachment to the correctness of the circumstances. While intuition is the act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes, that is, an immediate cognition of the answer or conditions. Now I can tell you the problem now becomes differentiating between the two. And there lies the difficulty. Without an assist, a coach, without an outside observer to guide you along to help you recognize the difference there is danger. This cannot be learned from a book but only through the experience and guidance of a coach. So may I humbly suggest for those of you who may consider themselves true seekers that you may want to pursue finding someone of greater experience to help you unlock these secrets.

Ruby Red Slippers	04 Mar 2003
I have a mentor also..... Tell us more about your story....

theredhead	04 Mar 2003
I found your thread interesting, you view point different. But i want to make sure i understand you correctly. You feel that tarot needs to be taught from an experienced, perspective. Those that are self taught are basically rogues, and outcasts, outside the fold, so to speak. You prefer a structured approach, like the Heirophant, acquired knowledge, passed down, time tested. Do i understand you correctly? But my question to you would be, where would this teacher be found, and who would you suggest? Unless i am mistaken there are no tarot schools, or very few of them. If our system is flawed, and self discovery of inner-self and tarot is not adequate in your view, what is your exact suggestion for fixing it. And where are these "teachers" to be found? I guess i am at a loss, since that's what seems to be going on here at Aeclectic. The more experienced teaching the less. Sometimes the lesser working through this learning experience together, sharing, and learning. I am at a loss as to the "spirit you intended" this thread. Why do you consider this experience to be of lesser value than your own? If i am a gypsy, than i am in some damn fine company, regardless of your opinion.

HudsonGray	05 Mar 2003
Right, a teacher or mentor doesn't need to be 'face to face' to do their job, they can be online or writing by mail or whatever. (Hmm.....Remember, that TEACHER may be completely self taught, so where does that actually leave your approach?) As with the Craft, Tarot doesn't have a certified school teaching students in the art. We ALL approach this from our own perspective & learning, our own past & actions. Everybody comes up with their own unique way of reading/interpreting the cards because of it. Guess I don't subscribe to this 'must be taught by a teacher to be real' way of thinking. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only way to judge beauty is by how it touches the soul.

HOLMES	05 Mar 2003
the title greater secrets make it kind of hard to see what the thread is about when one first starts to read it. aye ,, there is three kind of responses,, opposing, agree, neutral and the extreme of both opposites, one is bound to fall into the other eh greater eheh. in truth,, a guide is possible, at area area of the tarot.. rather it be a book, a saying,, a song,, as we start to learn the tarot,, the subsoncisous starts to open up to the higher conscious,, and then it reaches the inner pure conscious. it is ok to be heavy eheh greater,, humour can sometimes deliver heavy message better then seriousness, hmm flinch at the remark.(owww,, my arm hurts,, OMG VOODO you do , :O). the craft,, hmm that is far differnt then the pratice of the tarot, imo, as some see the tarot as the study,, the sharing,, the understanding. ehe. in truth a teacher is there in the form of books, media, especially our self teachers as we pratice daily, as the tarot is just more then a divination system for fortune tellers and gypsies, but a way of self realization in order to understand the universe,, just but one way of many of cours.e that sounds like jedi talk, be careful of your feelings they do betray you. are your certian your feelings are clear on this matter ? aye words like feelings, and intuition comes up, among more, like responsiblity as a reader, and such. what you saying is feeling can cloud a reading ,, that is why i dont' self read for myself in order not to cloud the reading with my own knowledge as to not bais my own reading. that is why the good reader learns to deatch. wow you use big words ,, while your inuiation is the knowing, without rational process, that is an immediate understanding of the answer or conditions. hmm. when one reads the cards they can use the knowing, the seeing, the hearing, the feelings, the smelling and tasting, and the touching. the feelings is the feelings your hearts feels when you read the cards, i am sure all tarot readers know what i mean,, you lay out the cards innocently enough expecting to put together a puzzle with perhaps some help from one own inuition.. then all the sudden for some reason that can't be explained you start to feel sad,, or angry,, or laughter,, and for me a picture usally shows in my mind,, yet another tarot reader might hear a voice.. to cut off one own feelings from a reading is not a key,, it is like saying when you share, listen not to your heart,, there is a fine line to be drawn between coldness and detachment. ""Now I can tell you the problem now becomes differentiating between the two. "" for me it isn't a problem.,, due to pure feelings, which i am reading from the cards with energy picked up from the reader, i know it is inuitive feeling as opposed to thinking.. "darn why in the world don't they leave that beep,, and start to project my own feelings and thoughts onto the cards". to give one life over to an teacher is necessary at times,, but not necessary as it comes to the tarot, as the tarot was designed for our own study, of the soul levels and phrases. sure a teacher can help broaden our minds, but ultimatley it is our own understanding gained through self growth through the tarot that matters. (it is like that prime book ,, i read it once or twice, and let my mind flow with it, in order to understand the tarot in my own time, on my own level) greater experience is useful for pointing someone to the way, or giving a key to the secrets,yet if the person is a true seeker, he will know he will have to travel the royal road alone. it is like the channel, he knows he can learn from others,, but in order to know his or her own channel , it is only through self exploration, growth, and pratice he learns the channel strengths and weakness. (i.e. not all guides are guides in all fields, you got your healer guide, your personal guide, your master guide who says seek ye the answers within,, he is there to gently remind you of the way,, and let you live it) this is true of tarot teachers,, some strengths lie in quality pratice, book learning,, pictural symbols, applying astrology to the tarot, or the kabbalah,, not every teacher but the source will have all the answers and all the secrets. as a medicne teacher said to me once, when i first started on my path to learn the tarot ,, you will never know everything, which depressed me for a while, why brother,, then i realize it was the search,, the understanding that is exciting. although truth be told i wouldn't mind learning the bota,, in order to know what everyone knows who took it , so i can use that as a new basis for moving forward on my own. eheh. alway remember ,, "the student shall be greater then the teacher,, " (if the teacher is any good,) or ,, if it can be added on,, or the teacher shall damn the student all this being said greater secrets, i am the hieorphant,, i like studying systems, and such, yet i know the heirophant is at the beginning of the major arcana, and there is the choice of the lovers that lays ahead,. or the logic of the self emperor,, if you are moving back towards source.

Faerie Lin	05 Mar 2003
Wow, beautifully explained Holmes! I agree with everything you said! Wonderful post!

Umbrae	05 Mar 2003
I completely agree! And adamantly disagree! In the colleges and universities around our fair country, they still teach ‘facts’ which have been proven fallacious. If you want to pass, you must learn to swallow and regurgitate lies. Also – not everyone is meant to, or supposed to – learn. I had a mentor for a very short while, she did not teach me about Tarot. Tarot, I learned on my own. Leaned from my mistakes…by consulting my journals…remember how I’m always preaching about journals? Nothing can teach you the truth with a surer hand than the honesty you place in your journals. Were you biased? Did feelings cloud your reading? A journal tells the truth when held up to time. There is an occurrence, an event, that happens when you sharpen a pencil and begin to write on paper, an exploration of your language – the pen – the paper – your brain – and even your soul when the exercise is practiced with discipline. What a good mentor supplies, is the discipline. But should you lack it in the first place…to what end? I believe, that the pencil should be your mentor…

wavebreaker	05 Mar 2003
First of all: everybody has their own way of learning. What works for one person, doesn't work for another. We are all different, so there is no "one right way to learn". Having a mentor I would consider to be very limiting, because then I would only get to see this persons views and opinions. And who says this person is right? Is anyone right at all? I don't think so... I prefer to have many "mentors", which is why I enjoy Aeclectic so much, because I see everyone here as mentors. Each with their own views and opinions, from which I pick what appeals to me.

Xarokys	05 Mar 2003
This very interesting thread is making me wonder.... Who taught the first tarot reader?

Major Tom	05 Mar 2003
I've got to say this: This evening, I start teaching a class in tarot, so I feel the need to defend the usefulness of a teacher/mentor. }) For those just starting out, just got their first deck or are even only thinking about it - a teacher can be of enormus benefit. Just by providing a bit of direction. There's all sorts of things tarot takes you into - and it can be bewildering for the novice to even know where to start. A teacher can save this person from thrashing about and give a structure. Please don't tell me there isn't a structure... Basically, a teacher can save a student time. ;) It's easy to find a teacher/mentor. All you have to do is decide you want one. }) There are many excellent teachers/mentors right here. :D You can find details of my classes on my website. :laugh:

Icestorm	05 Mar 2003
I for one would love a mentor, I would save so much time! Unfortunately, i dont know anyone even remotely interested where I live, so I have had to make do with Aecletic, which, incidentally, is about as fantastic a mentor as an online source could provide :-]

Mimers	05 Mar 2003
Well, I tend to agree with GS. Many of us don't have a teacher, but I do think that with a teacher, we get that objective viewpoint that is so hard to get when we are looking at ourselves. I have an Aunt that has read Tarot ever since I can remember. Being able to ask her questions, hear her advise, share experiences etc has been invaluable. What is also invaluable is that she knows me so well. I also have a spiritual mentor in my Mother. I have learned so much from her just from watching her as I grew up. I go to her often about spirituality. These things to me are very important. I agree with others that this web site is invaluable. I have learned so much here and gotten a lot of new insights, but it is not the same as having a teacher. This is a web site. There is a certain amount lost when your mentors are a screen name. It is not the same. I don't believe that you can't become an excellent reader and learn the cards if you don't have a mentor. I do believe that a mentor/teacher is an invaluable asset. Another valuable asset is the journal. I agree with many here that keeping and reviewing a journal brings out things that you would not normally notice. I have learned a lot just from this practice. Mimi

jema	05 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I believe, that the pencil should be your mentor… i agree with that for sure! as for mentors, we all have to start somewhere and a who is to say that a mentor is the best start. teachers are people too and i believe just as clouded as i can be. in sweden we have one tarot-mentor. who made her mentor? no one did. i read some of what she has written and frankly it is BS. the woman is incompetent to put it nicely. i have had the great fortune to meet some really special people on-line that taught me a lot. i only learnt from them for a short time each but they both were valuable to me (and james/black shadow is around here somewhere still) but when i met them i had already been reading the tarot for more then 10 years. a mentor/teacher/co-worker/friend is a nice thing but to put down ones own skills as a reader and elevate those of a mentor/guru is wrong in my eyes. another of my teachers taught me just one thing: to never put myself down but the be proud. other then that - a pencil and a blank note-book, yep, that is the best mentor anyone can ever wish for. that and the deep knowledge that you are a good tarot reader ever striving to be even better.

jamesriouxctm	05 Mar 2003
Hello all, I'm personally of the opinion that, in any venture, it is important to be able to practice alone. You learn to trust yourself and your intuition and your connection with whatever you believe forms the source of the power you're working with. This applies to Tarot, magic, religion, and so much more. I also believe that, in any venture, it is also important to be part of a greater community. It is not necessary to have an official teacher or mentor, but it is almost always useful to have other people of like mind with whom you can share ideas. This way you not only learn from your own successes and failures, but you can also learn from the experiences of others. These two aspects of the practice are not contradictory; they are complementary. Both are needed for balance and completeness. This is true is scientific circles too - often a researcher will work alone on a given project, but when it comes time to share the results or look for ideas on how to improve, there is always a greater community to turn to. In the lab where I work I have a number of colleagues I am proud to call mentors, but in many ways I serve as a teacher also. What matters is the interaction with the others in your community. Sometimes these "others" will be more experienced than you, and something they will be less experienced. That is just the way things are. The mistake, as Jema pointed out, is to elevate one group and dismiss the other as irrelevant. I've been taught a number of very important lessons by the people I've mentored, so it's quite possible for the line that separates the "student" from the "teacher" to become blurred, so to speak. In many ways, to be a student is to be a teacher, for the two are one. Even if a given "teacher" turns out to be incompetent you have still (hopefully) learned a valuable lesson - namely, how to spot incompetent teachers and how to avoid becoming one yourself, when you are inevitably thrust into the role. And yes, we are all called to be teachers at some point - even Umbrae, the great advocate of the "pencil as mentor", is probably seen as a mentor by many people on this board. On a bit of a lighter note, I wanted to take a stab at this one: > Who taught the first tarot reader? The answer to this question is exactly the same as the answer to "who taught Adam to speak?" And this is, of course, one of a) God did b) Adam made it all up himself c) There is no Adam Take your pick. Jema should have been more careful when invoking my name, for I am never far away... :-)

jmd	05 Mar 2003
This thread certainly brings up important considerations... it seems that there are quite a few threads which, of late, have deep import. With regards to intuition and its difference to feelings, I have just posted, coincidently, a new thread ('Intuition and the Reading'). I have to agree that having others with which to work, some of whom have more experience in certain areas, cannot be replaced by either journal nor website. Yet both of those also provide, as books do, guidance. Rudolf Steiner, in Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, mentions that 'for every human being bears within himself a higher man, besides the everyday man, as we may call him. This higher man remains hidden until he is awakened, and he can be awakened only by each individual himself' (excuse the gender use, but I am quoting from a text written in 1904). The 'guru' figure is not, in my opinion, appropriate in this epoch. Certainly we may all co-learn from each other, and each of us has certain attributes developed in ways which may assist others, and may have words of experience and wisdom which only the passing of years may bring - but the 'teacher' is probably not what it may have been in ages gone by...

Macavity	05 Mar 2003
I think it depends on the KIND of mentor? ;) Will s/he be someone who encourages LEARNING, rather than aiming to TEACH? Helps develop my own skills, but encourages interaction and discussion with peers rather than isolation? Will encourage independence of thought? Can we (really!) agree to disagree? Will I be allowed to use my inate abilities, coupled with intelligence and common sense? Or have to "Dumb down" and (ultimately) do what he says? Will he share knowledge unconditionally, even given the fact that I may one day equal or surpass his abilities? Does he need titles or status to keep people in permanent subordination? Does he proselytise his ideas or opinion as "gospel" while railing against "gurus" as charlatans, "false prophets" etc? :D I think these are among MANY questions I would consider... I believe mentorship (sic) CAN be a good thing. I would (personally) rather it be a face-to-face process than an e.g. an "online" one. One can then look at the mentor in REAL life, how they interact with and what others think of them. I believe e.g. online forums are indeed a wonderful way to SHARE knowledge and experience, but I suspect should be viewed as exchange among EQUALS without negating anyone's unique knowledge or individual skills :) Macavity (who KNOWS he would never satisfy his own standards }))

Silverlotus	05 Mar 2003
I have mixed feelings about mentors and teachers. I believe there is something to be said for having someone teach you, and something to be said for discovering things on your own. I don't have a mentor, other then perhaps this forum. I have no intention of searching one out at this point. I learn well on my own. I am able to keep motivated. My biggest problem would perhaps be taking on to much at once. I can see a mentor being very helpful if you aren't sure what to study, where to begin, for inspiration, fresh ideas, etc. A mentor is also a good idea if tradition is important to you. But to me, tarot is about self-discovery, and a mentor can't tell me who I am. Mentors and teachers are a big issue in the Wiccan community. There are groups who believe you are not a true Wiccan unless someone has taught and initiated you. Being a self-taught Solitary, I obviously disagree. A spiritual path is a personal thing. A few good books, a healthy sense of scepticism, a place to ask questions, and a desire to learn and better myself are what I use, and I think I'm doing just fine.

Lee	05 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by GreaterSecrets My mentor once said that generally most individuals who are self taught executed the "craft" well. She called them "Gypsies" and "Fortune Tellers". She said they had their place in the world but that a teacher was a most important ingredient to the true practitioner. With all respect, it sounds to me like your "mentor" is more interested in denigrating others, and in establishing herself in a position of power over you, than in actually teaching you something. -- Lee :)

Emily	05 Mar 2003
A mentor or teacher, face to face/one to one would be nice but its much more interesting to learn more than one persons views of tarot, see readings being interpreted, reading posts from people who have a wide knowledge of these cards - I get all this from Aeclectic and feel that my tarot studies have been enhanced from this rather than the views of just one teacher or mentor. Also I do value tarot books as being good reference material, well some of them :D .

Jewel	05 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by GreaterSecrets That is, when embarking upon the task of learning Tarot, a guide is necessary. Necessary ... no. Nice to have ... most definetly. If the student is trully interested s/he will find her/his way through the search. Many have eluded to the different types of teachers, and the question of qualifying these teachers, but I believe that the student also needs to be taken into account. If the student is a true seeker they will create a path and a rhythem of their own that will help them create their direction. I call it the path of the Hermit. Many people are better book learners, others need practical application, others are auditory learners, some learn better alone, others better with an instructor one-on-one and others learn better in groups. This will impact ones needs in the learning process. Quote: Originally posted by GreaterSecrets My mentor once said that generally most individuals who are self taught executed the "craft" well. She called them "Gypsies" and "Fortune Tellers". She said they had their place in the world but that a teacher was a most important ingredient to the true practitioner. I have to agree with Lee. I find this statement to be an elitest point of view ... quite a stereotype. Now going back to your premiss that we need a guide to learn tarot, I am quite interested in what your teacher believes the right way to learn tarot is ... what deck is the right deck? what order of the Majors? what type of minors? are numerology, qabalah, astrology integral to this learning? proper elemental correspondences? Golden Dawn based? What uses does she ascribe to the tarot? I am honestly curious.

Ravenswing	07 Mar 2003
live life and learn in flight raven

catboxer	07 Mar 2003
Mostly, all of us have mentors and teachers. That's what books are for. And the role that books used to play exclusively has now been augmented by the internet. We all learn from those who know more than us. The mentor doesn't have to be a live presence, and, in a way, things work better if he or she speaks to us from a page, a computer screen, or a videotape. That way, the cult of personality is less likely to enter into the relationship between teacher and student. Working with live teachers introduces the potential danger of a student revering the messenger more than the message. I guess my first mentor was Paul Foster Case. That was more than thirty years ago. As time went on, I began to find that I had disagreements with him. I felt that he confused and co-mingled mythology and history. Today my mentors are Stuart Kaplan and Michael Dummett. I'm a historian. I believe that history at its best is a true record of real events that actually happened. And mythology it ain't. I also read cards, but I'm not a gypsy, a mendicant charlatan, or a peregrinating quack.

Kiama	07 Mar 2003
I can see good reasons both FOR and AGAINST having a teacher/guide/mentor, etc... It is useful to have somebody guiding you at the beginning, so you know where you're going and what's best, though the mentor should always be careful not to suffocate the learner through bias. They should always let the learner make the mistakes they don't want them to! However, there is a point when we find we no longer have to be guided by a fellow human being, and instead, we take our cues from intuition, our own personal study of the cards, and our life experiences applied to the cards. Here, we become our previous mentor's friend and study partner, and the once-mentor learns just as much from the former student as the former student did with the mentor! I never really had a teacher. I had a few books, I had Tarot decks and therefore had different artists' views of Tarot, but the thing that really helped me learn was my experiences and what happened when I applied them to Tarot. It also helped that I could talk to people here on Aeclectic, not as mentor-to-student, but as fellow Tarot student to fellow Tarot student. We learned from each other. And I had a great time whilst doing it! Now, I am teaching Tarot to different groups and individuals, and it is my very difficult task to try not to suffocate them... To try and merely give them the platform from which they can then leap into a further study of Tarot, in whatever way, shape and form they choose. Often, all I need to do in order for this to happen is get the person a deck, explain to them how to intuitively read the cards (Say what you see!) and get rid of those silly superstitions they usually have. That is me filling their small back-pack-on-a-stick and giving them the white rose. It's up to them from there on which cliff to choose, what annoying yappy dog to take with them on their travels, and how many steps before they jump off that cliff into the forest of the subconscious below... :D Kiama

cheekyminx	12 Mar 2003
I have to agree with Kiama! It is easy for people to teach themselves how to do things e.g ride a bike. But it's always nice to have someone you can fall back on. When one first started to learn how to ride a bike, they either had training wheels or a parent, grand parent or sibling helped them along for a little while until they got the hang of things & were able to do ride the bike themselves. I have two students, two of my friends are learning. I have given them ideas on how to learn the tarot, how they should keep records, what kind of spreads to use first, loaned them some books etc. I sit with them through readings & only offer advice when asked for, or I wait till they have finished the reading & then offer advice. I believe that they need to try for themselves, it all comes down to trial & error. Often I'll get a text message asking what a card means or all the cards that were laid out! lol But I must admit that I have learnt a few things from teaching, especially as Tarot cards can vary with names e.g world & universe & some books have different meanings to each card. But I also like how on occasion my interpretation of cards will differ from my friend. Its all good fun!

isthmus nekoi	21 Mar 2003
GreaterSecrets, I think you bring up a great point re: emotion vs intuition. I think this problem is addressed many times on the board when ppl post about having difficulties being 'objective'. One of the greatest lessons in life, and not just tarot, is learning *how* to listen to the inner voice, not just to open up and listen to it. There is a definite difference b/w the voice that compels you to do something you need and that which compels you to do something you want, and takes time and practice to get a feel for it b/c neither can be reasoned through. Actually, a professor of mine once said something similar!! She said: not everyone downstairs has your best interests in mind. Good point! Having said that, I don't think it's absolutely necessary for a teacher here, but the conscious awareness of this problem is definetely needed as society doesn't stress this lesson enough. If I may be so bold, I think the concepts of learning/reading tarot and... the choice to engage in the process of being conscious (for lack of a better phrase) are being conflated in this thread. They are related of course, I wouldn't dream of separating them, but they are not one and the same.... nor is one a 'nobler' pursuit than the other unless you want to throw in some value judgments here. I think that tarot, like any metasystem, functions on transpersonal levels, that is, it is *less* serious than most human affairs, and simultaneously it is *more* serious that most human affairs which means things like getting your groceries to fighting wars to... reading tarot. Oh, the paradox. How far you orbit out of human affairs is up to you, but if you intend on going *very* far off the map, or "unlocking the secrets" (quotes not meant to give sarcastic tone), having a guide *you can trust* is absolutely necessary. May not be an actual physical person, but it *must be there*. Especially in our postmodern society where old structures (like religion) that were created to hold and stabilize the inhuman (ie god, whatever you want to call it) are now in very very shabby shape.... Most ppl I've met have a sort of unconscious limit as to how far out they're going to go. There are ppl I've met who have said that tarot scares them, they want nothing to do w/it. I say good for them for knowing their boundaries. Sometimes as a reader you have to gauge a querent's boundaries for them, hold them in check, but most ppl I find sort of innately follow them. As for those who are called to the search... well, if they cast their nets out and are patient, something will come to guide them. It's harder w/o official human teachers, but if it calls, you'll have to make do w/what you've got and try your best.

The authority, guide, leader, maharishi, master, sage, swami, teacher thread was originally posted on 04 Mar 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.