Mutilating Thoth?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Hedera	15 Mar 2003
I'm not sure this is the right thread to post it on... For the last week or so, I've started studying the Thoth again, mainly because the Cosmic Tribe is my favourite deck, and I kept trying to fit those cards to the RWS-mold. I'm liking the Thoth a whole lot better than I did last time! I've bought an extra miniature version of it, and on a whim, I used a permanent marker to black out the keywords. It made a lot of difference! I am much more able to look at the *picture*, to see the colours and the atmosphere there, rather than just picking up on the elements that seem to fit in with my idea of what the keyword means. I'm a very 'wordy' person, I tend to listen to lyrics more than melody when I listen to music for instance, and this tends to get in the way of opening up to different sources of information. I am still a bit hesitant about doing it to my other, regular Thoth. Afraid to ride the bike without the little learning wheels, I guess. :) Are there any Thoth users out here who have done the same? Or who would never consider it? What are your experiences?

Astraea	15 Mar 2003
Lots of people find keywords limiting and/or annoying. Personally, I am in favor of experimentation when it comes to the quest for a deeper, richer relationship with the cards -- if marking out the keywords on Thoth serves that purpose, fine! And if, after awhile, you feel that you want to go back to the deck with keywords, you can always buy another one -- or keep a spare around, to increase your comfort/security level (especially if a deck seems to be one that might go out of print -- not likely to be the case with Thoth, fortunately!). You could also buy some easy-to-remove adhesive labels to cover up the keywords, which wouldn't mar the cards.

Hedera	15 Mar 2003
I tried sticking on something first, but that made the cards impossible to shuffle. I guess it also has something to do with me being torn between wanting to have everything perfect (the way the artist/creator intended it, the way it is in books, comes out of that cellophane wrapper) and wanting to have everything perfect (just the way I like it, perfectly suited to my needs, open to every weird interpretation that comes into my head). :) You're right, there's not too much risk involved, really. Funnily enough, I've recently bought the Rohrig (liked it even better than I thought I would - now I *need* the book!), and those keywords don't bother me nearly as much. I think it is because they are at the top of the cards, rather than the bottom. Apparently, my gaze starts at the bottom, then travel upwards the picture. To end with a keyword, that I do or do not agree with, is a lot better than to begin with it. Experimentation is something I am always in favour of! I am just curious if any, many or none of the regular Thoth users value or dislike the keywords. I just realized: there are probably a couple of decks that I could actually *use* if they did have keywords - like the Shining Tribe....;)

Astraea	15 Mar 2003
I'm like you -- I want to respect the author's intention by not altering the deck in any way, but I also need to find the best ways to work with the cards. As long as I am not disturbing an irreplaceable deck, experimentation of the kind you describe seems acceptable to me. I also agree with you that the keywords on the Rohrig deck are not distracting (my eye, too, moves from bottom-to-top). The Thoth is one of my favorite decks and I am not personally disturbed by the keywords, but many people I know dislike them intensely and have even stopped using the deck because of them.

Diana	15 Mar 2003
I never write in books! Or only in pencil, and very lightly. Tarot cards are a book of life!

Rusty Neon	15 Mar 2003
(1) In the RWS, the images of the pip cards are, for the most part, ambiguous as to whether they have positive (gift) or negative (shadow) meanings and can be read either way. So, for example, the context along with the use of reversals or elemental dignities could bring out the positive or the negative meaning. In contrast, in the Thoth the keywords for the pip cards are either negative or positive, and I find that I'm less likely to see the card in the opposite way from the keyword and less likely to use reversals or dignities as a result. (2) I can be a 'wordy' person like Hedera noted she was. I find that when using keyword tarot decks (e.g., Thoth, Gill, OshoZen), instead of working from the images, I tend to concentrate on the keyword and draw out meanings based on the keyword or synonyms of the keyword. (A lot like the Etteilla school developed synonyms from the Etteilla keyword.) (3) I can understand what Hedera and Astraea have noted about respecting the intention of the creator of any particular tarot deck. I did things opposite with the Gareth Knight deck (which I dared to do because I bought the deck shopworn on clearance sale): I ADDED GD/Thoth-based keywords to the pip cards. Afterwards, I haven't felt right about it although i would have been very happy if Mr. Knight had included GD keywords on his pip cards. I think, ultimately, what bothers me about removing or adding keywords is esthetics; I can't execute the task so that the result looks good. :) (4) Be careful about removable labels. I once put a diskette label on a tarot card to see how it worked and when I removed the label a day afterwards it left a sticky film that remains to this day. (5) The thought of having keywords to accompany the RWS images had fascinated me at one point in time. (Not so much as a way to learn the RWS meanings, which I had already learned by that time but as a different approach to a deck). That's why I felt drawn at one time to buy the Napo Tarot deck: it has images closely based on RWS and keywords based on RWS or Thoth. Looking at the cards in the Napo deck, I can certainly see, though, how keywords can limit the meanings that can be drawn from the images.

RedWood	15 Mar 2003
Mark it out if you need too!! It is your deck....I dont write in many of my books...But if i do..I know i can get another copy..and it is my book..Why not personalize what i like about this book...If something ever happens to me..I like to think my son will know what i liked best about my book when he gets old enough..I really dont mark in many books..but those are my thoughts on it..Specially since Thoth is not an OOP deck or ever will be at this rate!

Sulis	15 Mar 2003
Hi Hedera, I`ve recently started studying Thoth and I must admit that I really like it. The keywords don`t bother me at all and I`m a person who usually is bothered by keywords. Have you thought about cutting off the borders of the cards with a craft knife? This would get rid of the keywords and I think that the standard or larger size Thoth would look good without borders. I read somewhere that the original cards had no borders anyway and that the borders were added when the cards were published which was after the death of Aliester Crowley and Lady Harris. Love and light Crystalmynx xx

Silverlotus	15 Mar 2003
I don't currently own the Thoth (but I'm thinking more and more about it...), but I do work with a keyword deck - Osho Zen. In that deck I find that by reading the keywords, examining the picture, and reading the passage of Osho's writing that is included in the book, I often get a deeper insight into the keyword. So, here keywords are helping me. In Thoth, I'm not sure where or not they would help. I've never used a pips deck, so I think they would be helpful. But I also think they are limiting when it comes to creating your own meanings. I think if covering them up helps you, then go for it! I'll tell you what really bugs me though - cards with the titles in many different languages. I'm not sure why, but it drives me nuts. I rarely use my Hanson-Roberts because of that. :P

Icestorm	16 Mar 2003
Hedera: If it works for you, then its a better deck than when you bought it, right? Personalize your deck!!! Of course, im not sure I would be able to grafitti my decks... they are too beautiful! (especially the LEGEND arthurian)

coldsuns	16 Mar 2003
I think the keywords for the Thoth Deck are important and at one glance you will understand the card. You will also know more about the card trying to say.

truthsayer	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon [b(4) be careful about removable labels. i once put a diskette label on a tarot card to see how it worked and when i removed the label a day afterwards it left a sticky film that remains to this day. [/b] there is a way to get the "sticky" off your tarot card--a cleanser called "googone". it for removing sticky tape and other such stuff. also if you want to use tape on a card, there is special adhesive out there called stenciling tape or watercolor paper tape or artists' tape. it's for taping to paper that the user wants to remain undamaged by the adhesive. seems to work for me!

Hedera	16 Mar 2003
Well, I bought a very nice silver/greenish marker yesterday, the green matches one of the colours on the backs very nicely. I took out all the keywords, and the deck looks beautiful! :) I think I *see* much more in the cards now, rather than intellectually deciding on the meaning. It brings out the moodyness very well. The funny thing is, because I have worked with the keywords for a bit, and because of the books I'm reading, the word usually sort of drifts through my head, anyway (and 'swiftness' always comes to mind whenever I see an 8 of wands, no matter which deck it is from). It's just easier to ignore.

jema	16 Mar 2003
i don't mind the keywords at all, but one way of avoiding them is to simply buy a deck in another language - one you don't understand. my first Thoth was in dutch:) so when i first got to know it i did so unbiased by any words. then later i bought a larger english one and found i quite like the keywords but can still choose not to really use them. in a way i already got "keywords" for all the cards - but in my head... i think most of us do. who here does not think at least for a second about "love" when they see the 2 of cups? wether that is printed on the card or not...

Rusty Neon	16 Mar 2003
Jema ... Did you intentionally buy your first Thoth deck in Dutch on purpose, or is it because one in a language you know wasn't available?

jema	16 Mar 2003
my first Thoth came as a gift from Kaz so that is why it was in dutch. but it is a good idea never the less:)

Hedera	16 Mar 2003
Mmm, I wonder..... It would have to be in a non-western alphabet; cyrillic, hebrew, chinese or japanese characters or something - otherwise I would still make sense of most of the words. Most European languages are similar enough to the ones I understand for me to still understand the keywords. Are there any thoth decks in China?

lawguy51	16 Mar 2003
I've been using the Thoth deck for over a month now and the keywords haven't bothered me until today. It was the 7 of Discs that did it. Although I use the Thoth deck and am getting better at the variance of meaning between it and the RWS, the difference between the RWS and Thoth deck with regards to the 7 of Discs is wide. Failure. That isn't what I'm used to thinking about when I see the 7 of Discs. I've always considered the 7 of Discs a positive card, a card of patience, letting plans take hold, or of deciding between something tried or true or taking a chance on embarking on something new. But in Thoth, failure, decay, loss, sober resignation. The only place where the two touch is with regards to patience. But then I thought, what the card was telling me today was to not fear failure, or more importantly, do not fear success. For the most part though, I ignore the keywords for the most part. What the heck is Indolence anyway? :D Lawguy51

Icestorm	17 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Hedera Are there any thoth decks in China? I dont think there are ANY tarot decks in China. From what I know, they prefer to use I-Ching, Feng Shui, palm reading, and stick readings. I dont think tarot is exposed there. keep in mind even the Chinese tarot is aimed at western audiences.

Jenny-Li	18 Mar 2003
Hedera: I'm also peeking on the Thoth - for the very same reason you do: to get to learn the system behind the Cosmic Tribe. So far I don't own a Thoth deck, and I think if I'm getting one I might just get a little one - for reference! I like the fact that the Cosmic Tribe only has the keywords in the book, that's where keywords belong, in my view - not on the cards! I think Jema's idea is very good, a language that you don't understand doesn't intrude as much as a language that you understand without thinking about it. I don't think you have to get a deck in a language you don't understand one bit, because if you have to stop and think about what the words might mean you will a lot more easily block the words out, and not see them at all. So if you ever want a "clean" deck I'd love to swap with ya, a Swedish one for a Dutch one...? (Just not right now, cuz I'm flat broke the next couple of months... :P But maybe you're happy with your crossed-out deck...?) I've just started to read the Book of Thoth, for relating to the Cosmic Tribe and I find it very interesting! I've never quite been able to tie the whole thing together, the RWS-system, with numerology and elements and all, but the little I've read up on the Thoth seems to be more based on that, and that may be the "lost key" that I've been looking for! Light and love, Jenny :)

Hedera	18 Mar 2003
Hi Jenny-Li, Yes, it adds some great insights when you're using the Cosmic Tribe! Unfortunately, I've used the Dutch one to cross out the keywords on, so all I could maybe trade would be an English Thoth, that wouldn't help you much. But I'll keep my eyes open for another Dutch one: they tend to come with books, sometimes. Yes, I knew Tarot is virtually (or even completely) unknown in China. I was joking. Lame joke! I could sort of see it become popular in Japan, though....;)

Logiatrix	18 Mar 2003
jema, what a clever concept! now i want to dig up one of my foreign language decks and try to read with it. i have some dutch, french and spanish decks. dutch is sure to be the language that will challenge me completely. how exciting! thank you for the fabulous idea! :D

Kitty	19 Mar 2003
The words don't worry me - they are part of the cards - I could never cross them out. I'm intrigued - those who have crossed out the words - what the words that first come to yor minds when you see the card? love to you all

Ravenswing	19 Mar 2003
ah ha-- once again this topic comes up. consider this: lady harris didn't paint the deck with the boarders or the keywords. if you find them to be a hindrence rather then a nice decorative frame, remove them. a good utility knife and a steel rule does the trick. Change the blade about every 10 or so cards and the cut stays real clean. i've done this to some of my decks. the gill was liberated and freer (ask pollux-- i bequethed that one to him), the robin wood is more intense... just make sure you have a steady hand... fly well ravenswing

Emily	20 Mar 2003
I've had the standard sized Thoth for a couple of days and the keywords don't bother me, they're at the bottom of the cards and they don't seem to stand out. I think it may be because I've been using the Rohrig and Crow's Magick (both have keywords on them) and then the Universal Waite which doesn't. The Thoth cards are so busy anyway and the keywords are so small, my eye isn't drawn to them :) I wouldn't want to black or cut them off, to me they are part of the card.

Ursula	20 Mar 2003
i actually learned Tarot by the use of key words for every card. it helped me to memorize their meanings to sort of have a "central theme" for each card. i always feel free to deviate a bit from that theme, especially depending on the subject of the reading or the position of the card. maybe not exactly on point, but you know, something i was thinking about while i read this thread... ;) ~Urs :OL

DarkElectric	20 Mar 2003
I've never crossed the keywords out on my Thoth, but I did on my Crow's Magick deck. I thought it would help me read the deck better if I did that. (It didn't.) I really like that one, but never use it, keywords or not. Thoth is going to be one of those decks that probably will always be in print, so you'll never have a problem getting one in pristine condition if you want it.

Richard	28 Mar 2003
I find that the keywords help...reading The Book of Thoth also helped me realize that most of the keywords are fundamentally neutral. I don't think I would ever black the words out, but I tend to be rather a purist about these things... And, in response to a message above, Tarot is VERY popular in Japan. The cards are never in Japanese, though (except in the LWB)...weirdly, I was reading a Japanese comic where the main character used the Thoth deck, and all the keywords were in English.

The Mutilating Thoth? thread was originally posted on 15 Mar 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.