Seasoned Masters Come Forth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

MST	29 Mar 2003
Would anyone with several years of experience with the Tarot care to identify themselves by replying to this thread? Often I would like to be able to easily distinguish the seasoned users of Tarot from the dabblers, novices, speculators and experimenters. I would like to know that what is being contributed is coming from someone who has enough experience to know what works (at least for them) when I need this level of advice and opinion. I would like to extend an invitation for whomever is interested to post a reply to this thread with a little information describing how they fit in this category. Thank you - MST ______________________________________________ Additional Post 3/31/03- In response to those that did not understand this thread: The reason for initiating the thread was to avoid having to read through endless posts. If anyone has that much time they probably should not reply. The thread requested responses from those that had worked with the Tarot long enough to know what works (at least for them). That clarified what was implied when using "seasoned master." A master is someone highly skilled. You can be a master and recognize that you can never know everything. The original thread never implied otherwise. The subsequent comments made after the initail post on 3/28/03 only show how many people think a master somehow knows everything. There is a sincere quest for information here even if it is not worded using terms many of you find appropriate. Everyone has an opinion. Not everyone has knowledge (on a given topic). If it is never useful to distinguish between someone who picked up a Tarot book for the first time a week ago and someone who has worked with Tarot for several years then move on to another thread. Other people wish to find the answers they are looking for even if you have no interest in learning the same yourself. Some joking and playful fun is healthy but a lot of space is taken up and time is wasted weeding through it to find solid information. If the question in this thread doesn't apply to you then move on -no offense but I was not speaking to you in the first place. If you just want to be cute please email your buddies directly. ______________________________________________ 4/1/03- "...Aeclectic, in general, is a very open community, willing to listen to all sides with minimal judgment. There was a great implication of elitism in your original post, though from your amendment it looks as if elitism was not your intention. My own experience has shown me that there is much to be learned from all sides." -Khatruman When I described what I meant by "seasoned master" any thoughts of "elitism" should have been dispelled. This was a misinferrence not a misimplication. In this community there is plenty of "judgement" taking place as evidenced by so many sarcastic replies. Simply because people are allowed to say whatever they want is not a sign of an "open community." There is an obvious click of regulars here socializing more than making a constructive contibution. There is nothing wrong with socializing until it gets in the way of what would otherwise be a strong platform for learning and respectful sharing of worthwhile ideas. (How many will now mock what is "worthwhile"?) Why is it so difficult for people to admit they are experienced and have a coherent grasp of Tarot? The taboo of appearing holier than thou prevents people from pragmatically planting their feet firmly on the ground. Playing the humble and perpetual student is safe. We all know things. Life is one big theory yet we take a breath and move through the world everyday taking for granted that we know atleast that much. When something is reduced to mundane day to day experience and is simply a routine part of your existence then you know you have arrived. Until then those interesting things you envy will seem supernatural, admirable and exclusive gifts reserved for an elite. When you know something you simply know it and all of the concern for lofty adulation is not an issue. We ought to feel comfortable telling the truth. It is essential to mental and spritual health.

HOLMES	29 Mar 2003
in time we are all tarot masters :O) according to our strengths and talents and experiences.

Diana	29 Mar 2003
Well, don't look at me! I'll be a novice in Tarot for the rest of my life. And I'm an incorrigible dabbler. Why, I even do fortune telling sometimes! Sometimes the so-called newcomers to Tarot provide me with the most wonderful insights. Truth comes out of the mouths of babes, they say. But honest, if you're looking for a master, I suggest you put me on your ignore list. (Edited to correct a shocking spelling mistake! Sometimes I dabble with spelling too! :laugh: )

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
Incorrigible, Diana certainly is, as for dabbler? MST, I suspect she's being a bit tongue in cheek without knowing it.... But as for seasoned master, don't look at me either! hahah, just started learning the tarot last year :) Although sometimes I can "channel" the advice of dot. dot. dot.... big scarey music... SEASONED MASTERS!!!!!!! MUHAHAHA

lunalafey	29 Mar 2003
Seasoned? perhaps, that's a matter of perception. Master? NEVER....there is always more to learn. how about this...at 11 my aunt showed me a reading with a regular deck of cards. At 22 I held my first deck. Not to traditional, the theme was the main connection. At 30 I discovered the CC.(my first deck had only spreads made by the deck's authors) Later that year I got my second deck...whole bunch of new discoveries. I have pages upon pages of notes, readings etc. Up until about 2 years ago, I used no other aids to learn. (books, classes, friends) When I did get to the books and more than two decks....again a bunch of new discoveries. How much I read depends on alot of things. Time, the need, deck dissaperance for a year(this is when I had only one). I go through spurts where I don't read at all, and times when I look to them everyday. I read by using 'the meaning' the image, and 'gut feelings'. I'm comfortable enough with my 2 older decks, that I can read them with no hesitations, though when I finally got some books I tend to open them now and then for different perspectives. New decks have become easier to get familiar with because of books and multiple deck studies....

Kiama	29 Mar 2003
I agree with what Diana said: I'll always be learning more about the Tarot, as its a life-long study, so I'll never be a Master. The Tarot is so broad that nobody in the Universe could claim truthfully to know everything about it. I would go so far as to say I'm kinda 'seasoned' (Makes me sound like a salad!) cuz I've been using and studying Tarot since the age of 9 (Nearly ten years now) and know just enough to be able to help others on their way with Tarot studies, but I'm certainly no master! :D Just a thought: If I ever did become a master at anything, I'd be really annoyed. It would be like I have nothing left to learn from something, and I would never want that! Kiama

coldsuns	29 Mar 2003
-.-''' It seems to be that those above are the most experienced Tarot users in this forum. They are the "masters" here. Alex and Moongold are "great masters" too. Though they dont know everything about Tarot but they know more than most of us here. I'm a little beginner ^_^

Diana	29 Mar 2003
coldsuns: Even great masters had to start somewhere. I will call you "the little master" in future. :)

Marion	29 Mar 2003
MST, I read your request with some interest. I suspect that 'Masters' of anything would be some of those who are always learning. If one is arrogent, I think any claim to knowledge slips away quickly, because it means you are not open to learning. In that respect, all who post here are Masters, because they want to learn, to share, to know more. Knowledge gained from books and study is heavy and dense, that same knowledge shared and interpreted ascends lightly to heavan.

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
Now you've gotten me thinking. UH oh! She's thinking.... Kiama said, if she ever became a master, that might be anoying, it is fun when there is so much left to learn... It seems to me, the further along the path of mastery one er... ambles... the longer that path appears to grow... and that very likely, it stretches to infinity. :)

Kiama	29 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden It seems to me, the further along the path of mastery one er... ambles... the longer that path appears to grow... and that very likeley, it stretches to infinity. :) Phew, that is a relief! That means I can learn as much as I want, and still never know everything... Ah, the beauty of Tarot... Kiama

HudsonGray	29 Mar 2003
Hmm, I guess you're not getting the answers you might have expected, huh? Not to worry. Look at the number of posts everyone has, read what they say, try to understand where they're coming from & how it fits with your knowledge of the deck & individual card interpretations, and I think you can pretty much count on at least a few here to know what they're talking about at some point or other. Nobody will actually admit to being a 'master' of something I think--there's always learning to be done. That doesn't help at all, does it? But then, tarot works it's way into becoming an open ended interpretation every time you use a deck--it goes far beyond the LWB words. Even a 9 year old kid can have deeply insightful readings with a deck & be dead on.

Ravenswing	29 Mar 2003
***jumps up and down, waving wildly*** "Hey. how 'bout me??? Can I be a master, huh?? Can I ?? Please?? Just for a little while before I...." ...monolog ended abruptly. The Fool just fell off that cliff again. Can someone please take care of that poor dog?? fly well jump better Raven

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
LOL Ravenswing, don't worry the dog can fly...

Umbrae	29 Mar 2003
What the heck is a “Seasoned Master”? Does it come with “Curley Fries” I used to go fishing with a guy who could put herring on a hook so well we called him our master… As for me, we are still discussing the color of the robes. We tried the white with pink piping, but it did not launder well. I still am holding out for camo-robes, but then the discussion broke out between desert – woodland – winter – or night. I’m leaning towards the Night-Camo-Robes. Here at the temple of Baaphymotept the Seditious One we realize that any master, once they gain the wisdom to be called a ‘master’ becomes a student, knowing less than before. As one can never know as much as the collective – there are no masters…only students.

jmd	29 Mar 2003
If anyone wishes for a Certification of 'Seasoned Master Coming Forth', I may have some available very cheaply (unless you want to haggle - actually, you'd better learn to haggle first)... Please contact me by PM...

Ravenswing	29 Mar 2003
What's the difference between a seasoned master and an unseasoned master?? ~~A grain of salt. :joke: fly well search within Raven

bec	30 Mar 2003
I thought "seasoned" was something you did when cooking dinner - ehhmm..... As for masters of tarot, giving quality advise on what works for them and what doesn't - then you came to the right place, I'd say you just found prox 2,152 of those right here in aeclectic. We are all masters, all fools and most of us don't ever want the tarot circle to end. Who is the master - the magician? the emperor? or how bout the devil? None of the above me friend, without the whole circle, nothing will end and therefore nothing will be able to start. Use your own judgement of what advise you can use and what not - but please don't put us in little boots (like the ones for horses???) - it is so rarely the place for one to be anyway.

Mojo	30 Mar 2003
MST seems to have been run off due to all the snide comments about his/her question. I certainly hope not, as it was a good question even if it did contain a word which obviously irritates many people's sensitivities. MST, "Master" is a term used by certification boards which I think you will find that very few tarot enthusiasts give any credence to. Hence the sarcastic answers you have received. The general theme here is truthful, though. It doesn't necessarily take years to achieve the level of intuition and wisdom it takes to be a good tarot reader. Indeed, there are people who stick with it for decades and still don't have the grasp of it. And yet, there are others who pick up the cards for the first time and have almost a natural ability to turn it into an art. And of course, it's all subjective. The ones who I would point to as potential mentors would probably not be the same list you'd get from anybody else around here. The best advice I can offer is to browse the actual readings being done and judge for yourself who has the best insights from YOUR point of view, which is the only one that matters when all else is said and done. You will quickly find that there are quite a few people here who are full of wisdom and insight, others who are full of themselves, and still others who are full of crap.

Ursula	31 Mar 2003
my suggestion is that you take some time initially reading through some of the posts under "your readings" or "reading exchange" (or other boards) and decide whose opinions you respect. you can also look to see who has the greatest number of posts; that's at least an indication of how long they've been participating on this board & may give you an idea of how experienced they are at tarot in general. i think the people who you might consider "masters" are too modest to self identify. you could instead ask who everyone's "most respected poster" is, but then people might be reluctant to mention some and not others. so i think your best bet is to look around a bit, then come to your own conclusions--and repeat that once in awhile, just in case some of us have grown a bit since you last checked ;) peace & good luck, ~Urs :OL

cjtarot	31 Mar 2003
Hi all, I agree, there are a LOT of wonderful intelegent people on this board who know more then I could ever hope to and would never dare admit it..modest as they are. Maybe we should be looking at the queston as: Teachers, Students, Onlookers..and realize that we all fit into each category, I know I do. Blessings CJ

Astraea	31 Mar 2003
My husband is a master lithographer; he is also one of the most curious and persistent students of his art that I've had the pleasure to encounter. His mastery of his medium is a direct result of his continual search for depth and breadth in the practice of his art. All genuine masters are constantly learning, not allowing themselves to become crystallized, brittle and stale in their perceptions and techniques. In my view, cjtarot is correct: we are all teachers, students and onlookers at various points on the wheel of mastery. Therefore (in response to the title of the thread), I think of myself as seasoned, but never done! :)

Cerulean	31 Mar 2003
for Italian social,court, literature and art history themes regarding tarot patterns or themes circa 1200 to 1806, I've been researching these topics with translations and classes, supplemented with web links, since 1998. My literature focus is those who influenced or followed poetry themes of Dante, Petrach and Boccaccio. My speciality is up to 1600, surrounding court families of Ferrarra, Milan and Florence, some very pivotal to tarocchi art history. I may be able to help you identify some resources. I have some deck reproductions of the Di Gumppenberg tarot patterns from 1806 to 1850 and historical tarot resources. I'm a reading novice in Italian and collect some modern tarots--mostly Italian. I've reviewed a few historical or art theme tarots and plan to do a few more on classic literature-based tarot themes. Because my background was in journalism and quick electronic text summaries/research, I may save you some time. JMD and Diana, moderators for the Marseilles study group, are very strong in French and European themes. I hope this helps. Mari H.

Richard	31 Mar 2003
It seems like you're looking for the Heirophants and Hermits to identify themselves, when it's really the Fools and Hanged Ones you should be talking to...Of course, they're always much harder to find. And I think anyone who came here saying, "Yes! I'm a Seasoned Master!" would be someone to distrust.

Khatruman	31 Mar 2003
I think most all the major points have been touched upon here, so I am going to offer only my insight as to the Aeclectic community in general. I am just seeing this thread for the first time, and it obviously has set off a rash of commentary. What this shows is that Aeclectic, in general, is a very open community, willing to listen to all sides with minimal judgment. There was a great implication of elitism in your original post, though from your amendment it looks as if elitism was not your intention. My own experience has shown me that there is much to be learned from all sides. I also see in that query your wish to gain information which you will find valuable in a minimal amount of time and time-consuming research. For that, I must agree heartily with Mojo's advice: Quote: ...browse the actual readings being done and judge for yourself who has the best insights from YOUR point of view, which is the only one that matters when all else is said and done. Yes, it does take a little time at first, but once you get the sense of who is here available to help you the most, things will work much more quickly. In addition, you will be sure that this is the advice and education that YOU want and not need to question whether the advice you have gotten is valid for you: you won't need to take another's advice on who will give you the best advice.

Logiatrix	01 Apr 2003
MST, there are at least a couple of different threads in which several of the aecclectitians give their years of experience. you can find them with the SEARCH option in "talking tarot." indeed, if you judge by quantity rather than quality, then numerous years will be your goal. but what of quality? i recall some of your other contributions here. you have a great level of insight. i think you have quality...you may already know more about tarot yourself. you are already a master. :)

DeLani	01 Apr 2003
Oh, good grief. Everyone is so darned Politically Correct! Sheesh! Asatraea put it best: Quote: Originally posted by Astraea My husband is a master lithographer; he is also one of the most curious and persistent students of his art that I've had the pleasure to encounter. His mastery of his medium is a direct result of his continual search for depth and breadth in the practice of his art. All genuine masters are constantly learning, not allowing themselves to become crystallized, brittle and stale in their perceptions and techniques. I mean, let's be real, at some point you have to look at yourself honestly and say, "Yes. I am a master. I have studied and read for X years, I have taken classes and given classes, and been called a master by my students, as a compliment to my teachings and readings." False modesty, and bogus credentials, aside, I do consider myself a master (mistress actually >) ). I have studied and read for over 17 years. I'm not perfect; I'm not the absolute authority (no-one is), and I'm continuing my studies constantly (obsessively). But to try and dismiss my years of experience and knowledge is self-depreciating. (ducking from thrown mud clods, scurries out of sight) :)

Kazz	01 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion In that respect, all who post here are Masters, because they want to learn, to share, to know more. Well said Marion and I agree..:) And in saying that, I think it is safe to say we are ALL 'apprentice masters';) Cheers Kazz :TQC

HudsonGray	01 Apr 2003
Well folks, MST has updated their first post twice now, still looking for those here who are masters of their craft. Is ANYONE going to come forward and say 'hey, I know my ****. You can learn from me with no worries'? I think that's, in a nutshell, what they're actually looking for. Not the banter or taking a few hours to read through the entire site. I'm not sure if MST is impatient & only wants the knowledgeable people to talk to, or if they're on limited online time (I was on 15 hours a week at one point, you can't get much done with that sort of limited time, I'll tell you). They aren't from Europe, so they're not paying by the minute (Europe is about 5 years behind us in online connections, they still have to pay through the nose for connection minutes). I'm not going to call myself a 'Master', so MST doesn't have to bother listening to me. But if anyone else wants to be tagged as one, I think they should probably speak up or it'll really end up ticking MST off. The person seems so serious.

Kazz	01 Apr 2003
oh ok!!!:) HudsonGray I am not sure If I would be classed as a "Master" or even "Seasoned" (although my RW deck is very well 'seasoned') But I have been reading for over 10 years, and just turned pro in the last 6 or so months Where does that put me???..;) Cheers Kazz :TQC

Kiama	02 Apr 2003
Well, if people are going to be like that then.... 1) (Is not what people have said above worthwhile? Have we not learned about the nature of masters?) 2) People who I consider to be masters on this forum, and who I hope don't mind being mentioned, but hopefully this will answer MST's question, though there were some of us originally who DID anyway but that has been ignored.... Diana, Holmes, JMD, Lee, Meewah, Mojo, Umbrae, Firemaiden, Ravenswing, Marion, DeLani, Kazz, Redwood, Zorya, Liliana, Major Tom, Thirteen,and Tarotbear who is no longer with us sadly. I say these people (Off the top of my head, apologies to those I left out, there are many others here who are masters but I can't think right now) based on their experience, or their knowledge, and the fact that I have learned so much from them over the years I have been here. Myself, I've been studying Tarot since the age of 9. That's 9 years now, nearly 10, under my belt. I run workshops on Tarot, teach individuals, and am currently running an online Tarot course which has 83 members at the last count. Does this help? Kiama

Kiama	02 Apr 2003
On a side-note... Something that I find wonderful about this forum is the range of experience people have, from 1 week to 1 lifetime... And it is odd, I think, that I have actually managed to learn alot from the 1-weekers, just as I have learned from the lifetimers. (Makes it sounds like a prison sentence! ;)) They are experimenters and speculators eys, but this is to their advantage... Because when we experiment, we find out new things that not everybody knew before. Us old timers, we are so set in our ways that we very rarely do this, and stick to what we're used to. My message here is yes, its nice to know who the seasoned masters/old timers are on the board, but please don't discount the possibility of learning from the 'dabblers, novices, speculators, experimentors'. They have a wealth of new, fresh understanding. Kiama

Maan	02 Apr 2003
Could you really point out a master? I think everybody in his/her own way is a master. I think i have learned from everybody here and i'm still learning!!!

Mimers	02 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MST When I described what I meant by "seasoned master" any thoughts of "elitism" should have been dispelled. This was a misinferrence not a misimplication. In this community there is plenty of "judgement" taking place as evidenced by so many sarcastic replies. Simply because people are allowed to say whatever they want is not a sign of an "open community." There is an obvious click of regulars here socializing more than making a constructive contibution. There is nothing wrong with socializing until it gets in the way of what would otherwise be a strong platform for learning and respectful sharing of worthwhile ideas. (How many will now mock what is "worthwhile"?) Hi MST, I have been following this thread since your first post and I thought perhaps my perspective might shed some light on what has probably felt like an attack by you. I will confess that when I first read your post I was a little put off by your request for seasoned masters. I recall thinking that you wouldn't get many responces, because the members here that I would consider having the most to offer have appeared quite modest to me. I did not reply because I am far from having any substancial experience myself. I would like to add that I was quite shocked at some of the responces you received. While I was dissapointed that you were treated harshly, I think that the responces you read were others trying to say that everyone's contribution is what makes this forum great. One thing I have noticed since being here is a rather protective nature by some not to make others feel inadiquate. By asking for the more experienced to come forth perhaps some felt like you were trying to create or find your own click. Although it is perhaps inevitable that 'clicks' have formed here, I would like to add that as a member that has only been here for a couple of months, I have never once felt like an intruder when joining in on one of their 'conversations'. I have never once been made to feel like my input or my concerns or questions are unimportant to them. Yes there are clicks here, but this is natural and not necessarily a bad thing. Some people have been here a long time and know each other better, that's all. As for the threads full of jokes and nonsence, and judgements for that matter, I hope they never stop. Too much seriousness would make for a very boring forum. Laughter is good for the soul. I hope this particular thread has not discouraged you from all the good things this forum has to offer. Mimi

Moongold	02 Apr 2003
MST, you will find much of interest and value here. It depends on what you're looking for. There is also another web site called "TarotL" which has a lot erudite people using it and which also welcomes newcomers. It is a YahooGroup and can be found through a simple internet search. I hope you find that which you're seeking. Moongold

Mojo	02 Apr 2003
MST Just as a recommendation, rather than go back and edit your original post to add clarification or other ideas, you should just add subsequent messages so they appear chronologically in the thread. I never would have noticed that you added more to this conversation had Hidson Gray not pointed it out. To address your issues: Quote: Originally posted by MST When I described what I meant by "seasoned master" any thoughts of "elitism" should have been dispelled. This was a misinferrence not a misimplication. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as that. To be fair to everyone here, you cannot come in here as a new participant and expect everyone else to ignore history which you are not aware of. As I explained in my earlier post, the term "master" is a loaded one. It is a term of exclusion and snobbery and has been hotly debated on these forums time and time again. Simply clarifying your use of the term does not dispel any of its negative power. Compare it to a using a racial epithet. If you went into a forum of black people and used the "N-word" people would still react severely no matter how you explained your own understanding and intention of the word. That may seem like an extreme example, but the word "master" around here is just as loaded. Quote: Originally posted by MST In this community there is plenty of "judgement" taking place as evidenced by so many sarcastic replies. Simply because people are allowed to say whatever they want is not a sign of an "open community." There is an obvious click of regulars here socializing more than making a constructive contibution. There is nothing wrong with socializing until it gets in the way of what would otherwise be a strong platform for learning and respectful sharing of worthwhile ideas. (How many will now mock what is "worthwhile"?) You're absolutely right. However, since Tarot is an art and not a science, people are drawn to it for a wide variety of reasons - some serious and some not-so-serious. That's one of the drawbacks of a public forum such as this. Many people who live in rural or remote areas may have no one else in their life with whom they can talk about their interest in Tarot. Indeed, some of them have to actually hide their interest in Tarot to keep from being looked down upon in their community. So they come here and they form cliques and they socialize. Solandia has attempted to accommodate this by creating other areas which are appropriate for chatting, but some of it spills over into the tarot forums. Likewise with the tarot enthusiasts who mix Tarot with other metaphysical pursuits. Personally, this drives me crazy because they talk about Tarot and magick (or whatever) as though they are one in the same. We just had a long and emotional thread in the member's section about "mystic babble" and it would be great if people would keep those conversations to separate areas and out of the general Tarot section of the forum, but it just doesn't happen. It's human nature. In time you learn to ignore it if it's not your cup of tea. I'm not much of a "chatter" and I am a Tarot "purist" so I've learned to look at a subject line and who started it and determine if it's something I'm interested in reading. If not, I skip over it. If I run into something I feel is totally outrageous, I respond in my typically blunt manner. I know that's harder to do when you're new and you have limited time, but you cannot expect the forum to change for you... you need to adapt to the forum. Quote: Originally posted by MST Why is it so difficult for people to admit they are experienced and have a coherent grasp of Tarot? The taboo of appearing holier than thou prevents people from pragmatically planting their feet firmly on the ground. Once again, I think it is the nature of the question asked which has prevented the type of response you are looking for. I can only speak for myself here, but the word Master used here - no matter how you want to define it - is what keeps me from posting my own credentials in response. I despise the term and will not associate with it in any form. Truse me, I'm not the least bit shy about talking about my experience or my skills. Had you started a thread along the lines of "I want to hear from the more experienced readers" I would have gladly responded. I'm proud of the years I have put into this and the skills I have. I just refuse to be pigeon-holed into a terminology that I find offensive.

Ravenswing	02 Apr 2003
(somehow i pushed the wrong button and started a new thread... this is where I intended this to go....) Well... it has oft times been said that those who claim to be masters aren't. that basic maxim is part and parcle of my particular frame of reality. there's a great deck of cards, the osho zen. lovely artwork, fabulous contruction, but it turned me way off. The reason: an additional card intitled 'the master' with a portrait of osho... so, as has been said, 'master' is a loaded term. we are here because of tarot. we come, not to learn and teach, but to share. and we share all that we are, not only the portion of ourselves that touches and is touched by the cards. we share our joys, our disapointments, our zaniness. In short, we share our love. To ask for masters was a slap in the face of sorts. fly on shuffle well Raven

Diana	02 Apr 2003
Mojo won't say it. So I will. He's a master. Even if he does go crazy when people mix up metaphysical pursuits with Tarot. (For some people they cannot be separated because Tarot helps them progress in their metaphysical pursuits and vice-versa.) And coldsuns is a Little Master (but that I've said already). (Oh and referring to the "cliques", I have been a member of Aeclectic for nearly a year and a half now. I have noticed no cliques being formed - just friendships. But maybe I'm blind, or else no-one has invited me into their clique and so I am blissfully ignorant.) It took me time to get to know who I would go to for a reading, and who I wouldn't. Which doesn't mean that those people who I don't go to are not good readers or tarologues. They just have an outlook on it which doesn't necessarily appeal to me. I really think it's hard for anyone to say who's a master and who isn't. One man's meat is another man's poison. If a person says something interesting and you think they may be up your street, you can always do a quick search on all their posts and read through them briefly. That should give you an idea who they are.

Umbrae	02 Apr 2003
As there is no “One Way” to read Tarot, no “True School” of thought, the question as asked in unanswerable. I have ultimate respect for Mojo, MeeWah, Diana, Divinerguy, Lawguy51, and a host of others…but our ‘ways’ are quite diverse. What you seek, and what other offer may be diverse. I understand you are ‘shopping’, but for what…a boat? A Church? Without stating what you are looking for, I’d hate to see what you’d get. Perhaps more clarification would help. The question as stated, even with addendums and editing is quite…unanswerable.

Maan	02 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae As there is no “One Way” to read Tarot, no “True School” of thought, the question as asked in unanswerable. I agree:)If someone takes a different "route" it does not mean that they will not arrive at the same location as you. There might just be more ways to the truth than we can see!

HOLMES	02 Apr 2003
i too didn't know you edited your post so let address what this thread has brought up for you :O) as i interprate it and i am no master (being 28 to some, old as the hills to others.. said to the theme a dream to some a nightmare to others by merlin to athur in the movie exacliber) i didn't indentify myself with my expereinces per se but with my explanation no labels for we are all masters. it is a spiritual truth to some and a frivilous answer to others. no clear cut answer there. i believe that my iniatial answer showed that there are no labels in the tarot and that we all have soemthing to contribute. quote "I would like to extend an invitation for whomever is interested to post a reply to this thread with a little information describing how they fit in this category." quote i saw this line as an inviation to share ego , and pride hey i been studying the tarot for 12 years top that , and when someone topped that then perhaps it would of gone ah but did you read this , and that ? and they would say did you read this and that and out of hurtful pride one could of said but who needs to read that. that is why no one here shared their expereince at the beginning but came form a defensive point of view from the forum. for this could of conviebly started of a ego battle if we were not humourous and light comments. the comment seasoned master is a play of on words for example. seasoned means experience so someone with experience could be called a master.. but then again it is a master to some and others beginner. as there is always someone who knows soemthing we don't "said in the theme as when a person says there is alwasy someone stronger, faster, better perhaps then you in the martial arts" ______________________________________________ we did read understand this thread all too well. The reason for initiating the thread was to avoid having to read through endless posts. If anyone has that much time they probably should not reply. The thread requested responses from those that had worked with the Tarot long enough to know what works (at least for them). That clarified what was implied when using "seasoned master." 1. patient in the tarot as in life is required. 2. patient enough to read threads which catches your eye 3. to say i like his or her ways of expressing themselves and you could do a search to see where they come form, in posts, 4. if it is information you seek do a search on that under that term to see all the threads here that we discussed in that past. 5. there is almost nothing new that we discuss these just differnt variations of universal themes that just happend to come up. 6. hell you could of did a look at the reading exchange and saw who was experience,d who wasn't , but saw also the person who wans't experienced has something valuable to offer. A master is someone highly skilled. You can be a master and recognize that you can never know everything. The original thread never implied otherwise. The subsequent comments made after the initail post on 3/28/03 only show how many people think a master somehow knows everything. There is a sincere quest for information here even if it is not worded using terms many of you find appropriate. aye it wasn't worded appropriate well. i think we made it clear that we dont' think a master know everything but that to call oneself a master indicates that we think we know everything. I as an individual when i get called wise, a master of the tarot i immedialty do an ego check and gently remind them i am just well read and i do some deep thinking but i dont' know everything. i recall the words of a medicine teacher to me when i was just starting on the path when i was 18. "you will never know everything " and that got me worried why in the world start the search then .. and i came to conclusions for some part of me needs to explore to know as much as i can in this life time. the orginal thread never implied otherwise, but it didn't imply "A master is someone highly skilled. You can be a master and recognize that you can never know everything."quoted in the edited post. we have our opnions and views and individual spirituality. we are not just our opnions as well but strive to see where we come from as well in the forum. it is useful to distinguish from one one who picked up a tarot book for the first time a week agoa nd someone who has worked on the tarot for years, but then i personally took your initail post to mean "i am only looking for experienced tarot masters, and those who dont' apply move on. " that is elitism in terms of knowledge for we have realized that a person who just picked up a tarot book can add some insightful knowledge and inuitive knowledge. no person experience should be disconted. when one posts here, it is read by many if you wanted to speak to an individual you should of pmed someone excuse me where can i read your introduction for i am looking for a person of experience in the tarot to help me. and the person would of shared their experiences. ______________________________________________ 4/1/03- elitism wasnt' dispelled for it still indicated that you were giving value to only those who have studied. my remark wasnt' sarcastic but a gentle reminder that we are not defined by labels but are all masters , and master eloving in the tarot. i have no click here but my friends some who i dont' talk to by pm in weeks but they always have my respect. i will mock what is worthwhile for your iniatle post didn't speak of sharing worthwhile ideas but you were seeking only experienced and wanted us to post our experiences like we were applying for a job "oh can i be your tarot tutor i have x years in the tarot have read x books and done x readings. " i will admit i have read books, done some thinking of tarot principles, tried to apply the kabbalah( badly mind you as i am trying to understand two systems ) to the tarot, and did some readings. my grasp of the tarot coherent to me is incherent to some example read my major tarot realizations thread to see what i was talking about. to play anything but the humble and perpetual student isn't safe, but ego filled inviation to disaster you must know this. our feet are firmly planted on that ground. the answers in this thread prove it more. life is more then one big theory, it is one big experience. all we can do is live life any "master" will tell you but they will also tell you that to strive to do the best we can in the paths we choose. so we know enough that to be humble in the tarot path, it will make us more open to the greater mysteries. even crowly admit he only had the base ideas of some tarot cards and some he didnt' understand fully but look at what he did. i am not psychic , i dont' see visions, i dont' hear voice, and i am ok with that, for i know i have other gifts and we all know that here, those who have replied to your thread. and so herein lies the lesson of what we have shared, that there are no tarot masters, but just universal tarot students who may have a little more experience or book learning or inuitive training then the newbie tarot student. yet those who know more can learn something from new students as these new students with their sometimes radical ideas have relovutionized the industry. and students of all paths of life has relovutionized those paths sometimes as much as the masters. be it affecting the masters with a fresh new point of view or be it developing a theory themselves by listening to themselves , and questioning everything on a path to becoming a "master themself" edited to take out a unquoted part of the original article which i forgot to delete

HudsonGray	02 Apr 2003
***Grin*** MST, you still with us?

divinerguy	02 Apr 2003
I can only give readings based upon my skewed perception of the Tarot. I'm a master of what I know, and I'm completely ignorant of how others may read the cards. I tend to see hubris in anyone who professes mastery of the Tarot. I see all of us as students of an infinitely arcane art. We can't even decide how many cards are in a deck. How can we possibly agree on what is right or wrong in Tarot? In the end, as with any matter involving belief in the unprovable, we must rely on faith and our own good conscience.

magpie9	03 Apr 2003
MST, I don't care what all these people say about you asking THAT question, I'm glad you did. The Tarot Fool would ask that question. See? You're the Master...LOL Keep asking questions, and answer them too, it's the process, and the shake-up does us ALL a lot of good. So thanks for your bravery and foolishness and wisdom and all that Jazz. And especially your honesty..:D :D :D

Lee	03 Apr 2003
MST, if you are still with us, I'd just like to agree with what Umbrae and Mojo have said here. The term "master" is really meaningless when applied to a field as subjective as Tarot. I was a little taken aback by your post and its subsequent emendations, though, because you seem to be irritated that we aren't making life easy for you by wrapping up the "valuable" information and presenting it to you in a nice little package. I agree it would be very convenient for you if we all conformed to your view of what this forum should be, but unfortunately the world does not revolve around you. The reason we're here is to enjoy ourselves by discussing, learning about, teaching, and sharing Tarot. If that's not convenient for you, well, maybe you ought to try a different forum, or start one of your own. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I was frankly annoyed that after all of 12 posts, you start criticizing Aeclectic and its members and lecturing us on how we're not what we "could" be. If you're looking for a strictly informational site, then you probably need to look elsewhere. If you're looking for some kind of Platonic dialogue, where the Masters cooly impart information while the Novices quietly and respectfully listen, then you're probably in the wrong place. Actually I don't think you'll ever find such a place. Along the lines of what Diana wrote, if you keep your eyes and your mind open and read a variety of posts and posters, you'll probably learn more than by just reading the posts of the "masters." I speak from experience. I've learned a tremendous amount by reading the posts of people with very little experience, as well as people with lots of experience but whose posts I disagreed with. For instance, at times I've been outraged and infuriated by various things Mojo and Umbrae have written, and I would never have classified them as "masters." But when I got over my outrage and fury and started to actually read what they wrote and think about what they were saying, I learned a great deal. I think this is what learning is all about, rather than looking for the "masters" and turning up your nose at everyone else. I was amused by your serious-replies-only plea. Don't hold your breath. Other than the forum guidelines (which are of the basic don't-be-nasty variety), and other than the moderators making sure that posts are on-topic and that threads are placed in the right forums, there's pretty much complete freedom of speech here, which is as it should be. This means that just because you start a thread doesn't mean you get to control the kind of responses people make. If you try, you'll just frustrate yourself. Finally, I can only repeat the advice others have given. Go to the Reading Exchange and My Readings forums, find some posters whose readings you admire, then go to the Search function, and you can search for all posts by those posters, and spend a few hours reading everything they've written. Frankly, I think you'll get more out of Aeclectic if you go into threads that look interesting to you, and skim through all the responses and read carefully the ones that look particularly interesting. -- Lee

Emily	03 Apr 2003
I read your first posting with interest but didn't bother to reply because I didn't fit into your 'category'. I am a novice with only just over a year under my belt and a few online readings done here. And although there are 'Masters' here, we all learn from each other - sifting through postings to find what you want is part and parcel of any message board, not just this one. I too hope that you decide to stick around, on these forums all opinions count and tarot is something that you can never get enough experience of and you can never stop learning.

WaterQueene	03 Apr 2003
Hi all. I have been an avid student of the tarot for eleven years and a professional reader for three.

bec	03 Apr 2003
A true master is one that takes pleasure in learning from his/hers students. And I wasn't trying to be funny or sarcastic when I said this is a forum of over 2000 masters of tarot - we love it and that makes a master. One week or 20 years it really don't matter how long you have been reading - tarot does not hold a list of facts therefore none will ever master it totally

The Seasoned Masters Come Forth thread was originally posted on 29 Mar 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.