Tarot and Magick???

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	08 Mar 2003
Firemaiden's Cosmic Pen is scribbling away. Invisible disappearing ink is a challenge to read. We have called in the specialists. From the scratches on the desk, the following has been deciphered: Hola, Tarologhi! Greetings from the Cosmos! The Great C(k)rowley ...say... Tarot .is..(garbled) ... Magick...(garbled again)....divination...mundane use...contemptible....(here it is garbled again beyond hope). I have been pondering this at great length. It seems to be trying to say, Crowley holds divination to be a mundane and therefore contemptible use for the tarot, that tarot is meant for Magick. I don't know anything about Magick, but given the associations with the Path of the Tree of Life, the heavy, heavy use of mythology and symbolism in his deck, and others like it, (including RW), it does make me wonder what other uses Tarot Cards were intended for, by such magical societies as the Golden Dawn, and what Crowley started. I am assuming nobody gets transformed into a frog. Are/were the cards meant to inspire visions? astral travel? transes? telepathy? Are you allowed to tell?

Astraea	08 Mar 2003
Hi, firemaiden! :) Several years ago, Mary K. Greer wrote a book called "Women of the Golden Dawn." In it, she said that the cards were used for scrying, astral vision, and connecting with still higher realms. There were elaborate ceremonies associated with the use of the cards for that purpose (described in the book). The scryer engaged in conversation with the characters depicted in the cards. The cards were also used for divination. Crowley used the cards in the same manner, according to a recent biography by Lawrence Sutin called "Do What Thou Wilt." Crowley, too, used the cards for divination and did not feel that that was a degraded use for them -- he did object when people naively believed that they were able to know the absolute truth about any issue on the basis of divination, alone. Both books have extensive references that would be interesting to look up, I imagine. I don't know if the Greer book is still in print, but the Sutin book is now out in paperback. What a fascinating subject!

Macavity	09 Mar 2003
Indeed fascinating. Not being party to such things I have no real idea, but in the world of onlinery, there are a lot of articles documenting experiences by Frater Achad (qv) (a.k.a. Charles Stansfield Jones) which are quite interesting. Following up those links gives an indication as to HOW Crowley perfomed these ceremonies - or rather "what he did" and "what happened" - which is perhaps what (most of us) "uninitiates" wants to know? Another author who uses modern language and speaks frankly on e.g. Kabbalistic techniques is Colin Low? I think part of the problem is as soon as one protagonist claims to reveal hard information, then another of their (internal?) "competitors" will accuse them of being (variously) a charlatan, spreading misinformation etc? This has been my personal experience with a great many male dominated hierarchical organisations? }) Sometimes one wonders if the perceived role of these ideas hasn't changed radically over the years. As (I guess) a "scientist" I am always rather fascinated by my antecedents. Newton is one interesting case in point. Aside from (casually!) writing the "Principia" and inventing "fluctions" he was an ACTIVE alchemist. In fact "real" (or conventional) science only occupied a small part of his career? Now I have the impression that Newton expected CONCRETE (or rather gold-en?) results from his alchemy. H was probably an accurate (honest?) observer, and SOME of his more bizarre (and UNEXPECTED!) experimental results have been reprduced by modern researchers? Like many, he claims to have "got close" to a result? But these days many of these ideas and processes seem to have become more associated with "spiritual advancement" etc? The sceptic might say "it figures"? Me? I just wonder if this perception is really true and indeed what that might signify... ;) Macavity P.S. Newton was also a prototype "unitarian" (heretic) - which I didn't know until recently. Some also claim he invented the "cat flap" which I did know! :D P.P.S. Firemaiden: You didn't hear the scary voice in the background of your "contact" saying: "Mathers! How many times have I told you NOT to play with MY telephone??!!" - Followed by a muffled whimpering sound? Heheh })

jmd	09 Mar 2003
There have been a few threads in the past which deal with magic and its uses. I thought I would try my hand at expressing some of my thoughts, trusting no-one will be offended. It is an area which I find difficult to express clearly, for one may sometimes read what one wishes in the attempt to understand another's thoughts. 'Magic' may be characterised as the manipulation of the elements in a situation in order to achieve a specific outcome. This may be done through the incredible power of words and actions, and ignited with the force of emotions. Further, the manipulation can be structured in a ritualised form. In Love - in deeper love - a deep respect, a reverence, for the being of the other is held. One small phrase, taken somewhat out of the epistemological context in which it was used by Steiner, reads: 'It is said that love makes us blind to the failings of the loved one. But this can be expressed the other way around, namely, that it is just for these good qualities that love opens the eyes' ( Die Philosophie der Freiheit , translated with various titles, including the more obvious Philosophy of Freedom ) I wonder if, in many ways, the various uses to which the cards may be put to - such as scrying and deep meditative work - requires, of the one who seeks some form of adeptship at any rate, a deep sense of reverence. As to anyone being transformed into a frog, I suppose that is one way to get the kisses of a princess...

firemaiden	09 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity P.P.S. Firemaiden: You didn't hear the scary voice in the background of your "contact" saying: "Mathers! How many times have I told you NOT to play with MY telephone??!!" - Followed by a muffled whimpering sound? Heheh }) Uh oh, Macavity... Distinctly muffled it was, now you got me worried A question arises from these fascinating and thoughtful answers. Which is, actually, in reading, how far away is one, in fact from these magickal uses. It would seem, not very, in some cases, if a flash of insight came on so strongly as to bring with it exhaustion, it is as though there has been a sudden astral voyage...

firemaiden	09 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd 'Magic' (snip).. may be done through the incredible power of words and actions, and ignited with the force of emotions. Do I follow correctly the soubresauts of your mind, jmd, that magic is done through love? I think I can understand the link between deep love and telepathy, astral travel, and spiritual transformation. I am trying to see how this relates to the cards. I guess when I understand that, I will know everything.

jmd	09 Mar 2003
Magic may very well be performed without love - but is it either the most effective, or desirable? I strongly suspect not! As to the magical aspect of the cards, is it not, in a certain sense, through love that the card reveals its meaning? Take the ace of swords (as an example which came in your thread on the Tower in relation to an audition, and of course in other places). I see, in virtually all instances, this card as giving the clearest of all possible 'yes' answer, of clarifying the joining, or bringing together, of that which truly already belongs together (the crown penetrated by the sword also symbolises this joining...) In my view, I have at times mentioned that the first step upon the path is reverence... love. For the cards, for magic, for individuals, likewise - for then what is physical distance, but an obstacle which the magic of love, perhaps with the clarifying illumination of that provided by those images descended to us from mediaeval times, transforms. Love under Will? Will under Love? Are the two, when conjoined, not equal and harmoniously at work with one another? Is not the frog a frog for the sake of the princess, and the princess for that of the frog... or am I becoming a foolish Fol?!

jmd	10 Mar 2003
The message wasn't as garbled as may at first appear - or again, I have totally become a foolish Fol. Isn't that too part of the magic of Magic, that each word, each part, each element must somehow be understood in order for its effectiveness? Some say that one need not understand each word used in whatever language is used, for the language itself contains a potency inherent in its being - perhaps so. Like Love, but in either case, the mind's clarity of reflection makes for the ability to cary the messages, whether in the language of the birds or of the fish, more penetrating - and certainly more magically clear. If I invoke Haniel, or Venus, or Eros, or any of the thousand and one appelations which certain potencies have - which certain spiritual beings have - its name will become all the more meaningful if understood by its speaker, who intones, implores and invokes it with the deep reverence one senses towards one's Love...

Icestorm	10 Mar 2003
I hope you'll excuse me while i indulge in a little bit of random rambling (If i offend anyone, im sorry, its not intentional):-] I have found vague references of tarot being associated with 'magic' but I find the notion incredible in its enormity. jmd had been discussing about the relationship between love and magic, but im wondering if we should not go back a step further... magic? what is magic? is it the stuff that lets you, as jmd suggests, manipulate matter to achieve the impossible? Or is it more subtle, perhaps a higher learning of the aecletic brain? It is my thought that there are many interpretations to magic in our society where the norms dictate disbelief in all but the most earthly of sciences. I must admit that I have encountered no visible sign of magic; but then, neither am I surprised. If magic does exist out there, it is beyond my mental capabilities to tap into by blunder or luck. That said, the association between magic and tarot, or at least, a certain type of magic, has its merits. (They are both sold at the same bookstore! :-] ) It is perhaps not the most direct route to magic, if it can be called magic, but maybe tarot is a catalyst for our emotions or discplines that inspire magic? In this interpretation the purpose of the tarot is relatively similar to its uses as a divination tool... which brings the thought that divination is a form of magic? perhaps even THE form of magic? I for one, i think, will never know. However, there are many unexplainable things that happen within our lives, and if we can dare assume that intuition, or even a raw aptitude for magic, is what guides us, then perhaps it does exist. The tarot then, at least for me, is a potentially theoretical tool that can possibly be a catalyst of magic. But then again, I am not a vapid believer of traditional magic, and I am not Wiccan. My knowledge is quite thin in that entire area, actually; so take my mutterings only with a pinch of salt :-]

Major Tom	10 Mar 2003
What follows are my thoughts gathered via a rather haphazard path of study and practice. No offense is intended to anyone. These are simply my own rather disorganised thoughts on the topic of tarot and magick. "We all live in our own heads". In other words we all create our own reality that is ours alone, even though we can agree to share perceptions. Indeed, we agree to share most of our perceptions regarding the world at large, but there can be only one answer to the question how many people live in your world? The only true answer is one. }) Magick is not something you do - it is something you are. If we agree with Jmd's definition: "'Magic' may be characterised as the manipulation of the elements in a situation in order to achieve a specific outcome", then simply picking up the telephone to talk to someone is 'magick'. Every word, thought and action has its consequences and can therefore be considered magickal, but it only truely becomes magick when we take control and direct the energy toward accomplishing our will. When done with love, this becomes extremely powerful and capable of accomplishing extraordinary things. Magick changes our perception of our world. Tarot provides us with a language, which when understood, aides the process of magick. Isn't it magickal when a tarot reader lays out a few cards and proceeds to tell a querent about their life? And how much more magickal when the tarologue finds him/herself transformed by the study of tarot? Don't like the outcome of your latest tarot reading? Then why not change the outcome using magick? It can be done. ;) Jmd also mentions the use of love and will in magick. I submit a third element to the practice of magick - belief. If you don't believe your magick is going to work - I guarantee it won't. Excuse me, I've got a date with a toaster... :laugh:

jmd	10 Mar 2003
Thank you Icestorm, you do bring some of the important questions posted earlier into focus - I may have seemed to have gone to the side, but I do not think I actually did. 'Magic', such is the very computer you are using and its subtle manipulation of certain elements. When something is understood, it may be worked, it may be combined, but in each case, to reach a depth of understanding into the element, Love, the opener of the gates of the unknown, is necessary. We do not have to be practicing 'magicians' to be Magicians - and the magic is all around us, all the time. To but look closely at the petals of a rose unfolding, or the stripes of a t... errr, zebra, one can certainly find mathematical equations and genetic conditions, but these only assist in bringing us closer to the deeper and full magic of what is present. What is magic? the very manipulation of the various elements of each and every situation, whether these be between two individuals, the construction of a bridge, the composing of a lullaby - or verily its rendition.

jmd	10 Mar 2003
I did not see your reply, Major Tom... I would otherwise have begun: lucky Tom! You say that if one agrees with the way I have characterised magic in my earlier post, 'then simply picking up the telephone to talk to someone is 'magick''. This may very well be true! - but it can be done with understanding, or 'merely' mechanically. And I agree with your third element listed: the head, as well as the heart and will, needs to be involved, how else would you fix the fuse!

Major Tom	10 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd I would otherwise have begun: lucky Tom! Is it luck or is it magick? :laugh: Quote: Originally posted by jmd it can be done with understanding, or 'merely' mechanically. To truely be magick - it has to be done with understanding. We seem to be singing the same song. ;)

Icestorm	11 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Thank you Icestorm, you do bring some of the important questions posted earlier into focus \ no, - thank YOU jmd..., and Major Tom as well :-] I think I understand more about what you are talking about now... I admit, I hadnt actually considered that everything around me could be magic... but its a very valid theory. I probably still dont know enough, and quite probably never will know enough to agree or disagree with you, but I have found a certain degree of refreshing new thought from your post that has 'opened my eyes' just a little. so, thankyou jmd!

Laurel	11 Mar 2003
Magic, at its best, is for me a state of mind. Its an art and science of changing my consciousness from a very "heavy" assiah state to that of the upper worlds where archetypes and netjers and mythical truths are as 'real' as tables and chairs. The tarot is a a treasure trove of images and symbols that are well suited for this internal ascension or descension as the case may be. First they speak on an instinctual level, and then stray memories and dreams come into the picture. Then applied analysis through occult research and at last pure insight, the fountain head of wisdom and understanding. ~LAS

firemaiden	11 Mar 2003
Amazing, amazing, fantastic responses, thank you all. I think I am beginning to get it. Something you said Tom. Some things you all said: Language, invocations, spells, prayers, poetry, images, tarot cards create a universe, create a reality. Hence I got angry with Aoife when she invoked loss of voice for me on the 500th post thread. Even the invisible disappearing ink of my cosmic pen carries the weight of creating a reality. For one used to words as wind, and wind as flatulence (another cool medieval topos) words have never carried the weight of flesh, the weight of earth, the weight of truth. Normally they slide out easily as toast popping from the toaster, words are free, have no consequences, just air, thinks the extrovert. me. let them fly. Then along comes this love thing, that happens through words, and it is as if a veil is lifted over the world. Then I see bizzare connections between everything, and understand that words invoke worlds, and create realities, and resonate on so many planes of existence at the same time. Even pictures create realities. I paint the two of cups, it comes true. I paint the three of cups, it comes true. As if we could truly be the author of a reality, by simply first dreaming it, visualizing it, seeing it, painting it, and then watch it come to fruition. So tarot cards are words and pictures at the same time, we use them, we invoke a reality, visualize a scenario, then watch it come to fruition. A bit late, Firemaiden's brain is suddenly wondering what happened...

jmd	12 Mar 2003
... may I at least quote you, and repeat those words so gracefully and flowingly expressed (what skill you have)? With the magic of Love, 'it is as if a veil is lifted over the world'. May we go even further - and maybe even remove the 'as if'? Truly love is needed to unveil the world, reveal its being, which the magician may then (but with love only) charm into new dimensions? ... and then words are fleshed, clothed, real. As are the very thoughts thought ... magic indeed.

Major Tom	12 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden So tarot cards are words and pictures at the same time, we use them, we invoke a reality, visualize a scenario, then watch it come to fruition. By George, I think she's got it! :D When done with love, belief and will this works - every time. ;) Consider this: The Secret of Life is what you want.

The Tarot and Magick??? thread was originally posted on 08 Mar 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.