can this work with soul cards and personality cards.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HOLMES	19 Apr 2003
i had an idea for a while now to divine a person soul postion on the major arcana. 1. by shuffling the major arcana 2. by laying in one line by shuffle (nor percieved order. ) 3. and to divine your current postion where you been and where you going. on the soul level. 4. now the ideal of personality cards add a dimension i must say. so let say .. lay out the major arcana. hmm i was doing to do this by theory but lets apply brb with some cards. (now mixing up the majors arcana throughly) ok let see, aye let us incorpate the teachers lol high priestress, fool reversed, and chariot reversed. 1. the tower reversed. 2. the moon reversed. 3. lovers 4.star reversed, 5.judgement reversed 6.fool reversed. 7. temperance 8.hanged man 9. magican 10. world 11. the chariot reversed. 12.strength 13. justice 14.sun 15. the devil reversed. (this is interesting eh the devil at the devil ) 16. heirophant. 17.the emperor reversed 18.the hermit 19.death 20wheel fo fortune 21 emperess. 22.highpriestress. let see, 9 8 1975. 17 plus 19 plus 75.. 111 =3. or 17 plus 1975 equals 1992. 1+9+9+2 =21 =3 world card is personality card. soul card is emperess. hidden factor card is the hanged man. my soul is near the end of major arcana cycle yet my personality is near the beginning still my shadow self is closer still to the beginning. i would say that my personality self being numerically far above my soul postion (numeralicaly not spread wise ) i am this close to taking a new soul postion to be come either the emperor (if one see the arcana going to eternity ) or going to highpriestress ( if one see the arcana coming back to source ) spread wise, .. my personality has to go through these changes in either this life time or through many life times in order to get to the next soul level 11. the chariot reversed. 12.strength 13. justice 14.sun 15. the devil reversed. (this is interesting eh the devil at the devil ) 16. heirophant. 17.the emperor reversed 18.the hermit 19.death 20wheel fo fortune 21 emperess. 22.highpriestress while my shadow follows close behind 8.hanged man 9. magican 10. world 11. the chariot reversed. 12.strength 13. justice 14.sun 15. the devil reversed. (this is interesting eh the devil at the devil ) 16. heirophant. 17.the emperor reversed 18.the hermit 19.death 20wheel fo fortune 21 emperess. 22.highpriestress i haven't yet figure out what this means.. but i think it means my ego has to deal with the hanged man, the magican, and the world before it catches up with my personality.

HOLMES	19 Apr 2003
first thing i was thinking does one do this one in a life time or can our soul growth change in the next life based on what we do in this life. it must right ? otherwise why come,, but otherwise one would do this every year ? perhhaps every ten years ? any thoughts ? my thoughts is reversed the soul wants us to work on this so it can move forward on the soul level. i just realized as well the card reversed means that positon is reversed but the card reversed means how. my magican postion or creating my own world 1. the tower reversed. i have trouble on the person level doing this as i fear the tower coming to all my creations destroying everything i have made not realizing it is for the better energy wise to create a even better tower. that is why i have trouble with my magican higher will self. 2. the high priestress postion the moon reversed. i fear my inuition as i fear getting the wrong information due to deceptions , wrong instincts. here i have trouble recieving the higher wisdoms. 3. the emperess postion.the lovers emotionaly i am opening up to loving choices and learning the higher laws of love. 4.emperor postion.star reversed, my logic, the way i percieve the laws of man, i see here i have trouble with the laws as not seeing them comign from the divine, or the hope and compassion that goes into some laws. so my logic that helps others in this world is denied blocked,. 5. the hierophant postion.judgement reversed here i have trouble having my spiritual awakening due to spiritual teachings of the past, opression i see so i have trouble following the teachings of establishments. 6.lovers postion fool reversed. i have trouble following my soul direction when it comes to love, following the love in my spirit for those who touched me. this is due to fear of manipulation, of rejection, fear i might hurt them as well. 7. the chariot positon. temperance my control comes from the temperance within, the peace of balance that allows me to act upon this life. my ambition is tempered with mercy. 8. the strenght postion. hanged man i am strong here it comes from taking a new view on life. this is also my shadow postion that says i fear this, i reject this. i fear my strenght , and the new view i get for it doens't fall into established thought. 9. the hermit positon. magican i feel that only by myself and spiritual love can i make my world. this says i find great reflection on the divine will when i am alone. 10. the wheel of fortune card. world this is my personlity card, and my friends know i have talked of the creator and the destroy aspects of myself that i learned about in social service worker. so my world moves with the times, i can affect the world or destroy it. ( my world that is, i like to say that my creator self is winning out and so i dont' hardly drink any more ) 11. the justice positon the chariot reversed. here i see denying amibiton means to deny self justice, by not using control of myself and action on my ambition i deny the chance to have self power in my life (those who know my situation know what i mean ) 12. the hanged man postion. strength cool the hanged man in the strenght and the strenght in the hanged man eheh. ok , my new views on life i find stems from the inner strenght i realize in the world. and how to apply it. it takes great strenght to just live in this world. 13. death justice i see a reason for every death, every change, and that is my lesson in this life to see the conquences and build up changes for they natural and the laws of nature and the universe. 14. temperance. the sun the balance i seek comes from spiritual light, spiritual love for others, and that has brought me great peace and healing. when i am peaceful i know the source. 15. the devil postion. the devil reversed. (this is interesting eh the devil at the devil ) i fear facing my fears, my bondages, my attachments. i am the one who tells others how to do it,, never doing it myself due to fear and anger perhaps. 16. the tower. heirophant. i am undergoing a big shakedown in my lifetime it is due to my spiritual beliefs and teachings that i am doing it. facing what i dont' need from the spiritual point of view. it is a life long process. 17. the star postion. the emperor reversed i have trouble with compassion for i don;t understand the logistics of it. however when me and my brother fight i still help him, even the one who spurned me i help them. though my compassion makes no sense to others or even myself and it is reversed i am still trying to pratice it and right it. 18. the moon postion. the hermit only when i am alone do i really face my deceptions my instincts my illusions. up to a year ago i feared being alone just alone, even now i need friends around me. this is a big lesson for me. 19. the sun. death i see the source in every change, and understand the source is about change and rebirth, through constant change i start to undersand it more, on all levels. 20 the judgement. wheel fo fortune my spiritual awakneings come in cycles, and i have my up and downs, i realize now that spiritual awakenings don't come constanct but in spurts like growth spurts. 21 the world card. emperess. my soul postio currently is to love the world, and try to accept it for what it is , and the nature of it, and to understand it laws , its cycles, and the constanct change that happens. 22. the fool. highpriestress. here when it beings again my soul growth and personal growth in this life time. it is always when i try to understand the wisdom of the mysteries . and apply it to my world in truth we will never know just have to experience, and that is the one that will get me to the next cycle. so here it is ,, how to undertand it , near as i can , this spread and using the soul and personality card to see where we are, our current spiritual make up and where we are going to go , and what we have to do, give it a try and give me feed back ok ?

Melvis	19 Apr 2003
Hi, holmes! I like your use of the Personality/Soul/Hidden Factor Card within a spread, especially a spread made up of the entire set of Majors! And yes, you figured out the your cards correctly when you added 17 to 1975. I'd never really thought about that before, using the order of the Majors as the positions in a spread. It's a bit too large of a spread for me to work with, though. If I were to do the spread, I would probably concentrate on the cards immediately surrounding your P/S/HF Cards, as those are the ones that are just past/just ahead on your 'Soul's Journey'. Hmmm... This is one of those spreads that makes me think too much! I think you were right...I have to go get some cards and mess around with it for a while! Peace, Melvis

Moongold	24 Apr 2003
Hi Holmes, You always come up with great new ideas. It a huge spread and one would not want to it too often. It takes hours to do as well. I still haven't finished but I'm so tired that I'll leave it for now. I'm not sure that I like splitting the Soul and personality cards. I can't anyway because I have the one for both but I wonder if we could use the one the Querent nominates. My understanding is that the Soul represents the deepest core of who we are and personality is simply the face we show to the world. Last night I threw the cards and it was a little different from what it is now but it is a bit spooky. I have the Chariot in the Hierophant position and the Tower (Teacher Card) in the Chariot position. Something is going to happen.!!?? I'll have to do it again, Holmes and can't this week end, But I will finish it. I think it has very strong messages but I need to organize my work so that I can do it. I feel as though I will need to go on retreat for a week end or longer and do this with lots of rest and meditation. I think it is very, very rich but I need to finish it and then give you some more feedback. Many blessings, Moongold

HOLMES	24 Apr 2003
1. i appreciate the feedback. 2. i even more appreciate the extra time and energy you putting into the deeper aspects of these ideas. :O) quote I have the Chariot in the Hierophant position and the Tower (Teacher Card) in the Chariot position. Something is going to happen.!!?? quote. it is time to act upon your knowledge that you have acquired through spiritual study and to apply it to all areas of your life , shaking your foundation and letting old beliefs, and old thoughts fall away. then you will be able to build a new foundation and go further alone your path notice the tower adds up to the chariot , 16 adds up to make 7. what we have here is a logical extension of the chariot energy, it is telling go forward, and for me , chariot means control ,where as it used to mean ambition. to act out of control in the tower energies but with restrained. it is a fine line to tredge.

Moongold	24 Apr 2003
Thanks Holmes......you're special. I have a feeling something important is going to happen very soon and this is an interesting indicator. Warmest regards, Moongold

Moongold	30 Apr 2003
Hi Holmes, Some thoughts about this. Mary Greer says that our personality card is the major signpost along our life’s journey, while the soul card remains the goal or purpose of our being. Rachel Pollack quotes the originator of the Lifetime Cards system, Arriens, as saying that the personality card shows “your expression in the outer world, your talents, gifts, resources and how others see you.” The Soul card reveals “the deepest core of who you are”. That made me think that the Soul card is the critical factor in this, and that the personality card is simply the expression of the Soul. If that is the case, why not simply use the Soul card in this spread? What do you think? Some of us have a dual personality card and soul card anyway and have no choice about this, Since you had this original idea there has been some discussion about the tarot journey not necessarily being linear. However I don’t think this need matter in terms of the spread. Whilst your purpose was to look at the place of the Soul on the major Arcana, I thought that given the fact that the soul’s journey is not linear, the purpose of the spread could be to look at the lessons the Soul needs to learn in this lifetime before advancing to another level or to another life. How does that sound? Using the Tarot of the Sephiroth, this is how the throw came out for me: My throw .......................CorrespondingMajor Arcana position 1. Temperance....... 1. Magician 2. Judgment............ 2. High Priestess 3. Fool....................................3. Empress 4. Hierophant........... 4. Emperor 5. Strength.............. 5. Hierophant 6. Universe.............. 6. Lovers 7. Devil................... 7. Chariot 8. Lovers................ 8. Strength 9. Death .........................9. Hermit 10. Wheel of Fortune 10. Wheel of Fortune 11. Magician.............. 11. Justice 12. Tower ........................12. Hanged Man 13. Emperor............ 13. Death 14. Sun................... 14. Temperance 15. Star................... 15. Devil 16 Chariot.............. 16. Tower 17. Moon .........................17. Star 18. Hermit................ 18. Moon 19. Hanged Man...... 19. Sun 20. Empress........... 20. Judgment 21. Justice.............. 21. World 22. High Priestess.... 22. Fool This is interesting for me because my Soul/Personality card is Chariot and it is quite near the end of the 22-card spread at number 16. Number 16 in the real major arcana is Tower, which is my teacher card. This is the second time in this exercise that this has happened for me, Holmes, as you’ll see if you look back. So there is a major life lesson occurring for me right now. I think that is probably accurate. It matches the current spiritual and real circumstances of my life. You suggested when this first happened a few weeks ago that I use all the spiritual tools that I have developed to help me through this time and I am doing that. I see this as much more of a spiritual lesson than anything else, particularly at my time of life. So it has been useful for that insight anyway. There is comfort in the fact that there are lessons ahead! They look interesting. I feel I should meditate on them, but I’ll have a little bit of a go at it. Moon and Star? A puzzle. Perhaps I have a lot more to work out on the unconscious level before reaching the Star. Perhaps there are still parts to my psyche that are in shadow? I have to remember too that the Star is still in darkness but lit from within. The message is that I still have more internal work to do. Hermit and Moon? That I need to go deep within. To listen to the voice of the Gods/Goddesses within. Hanged Man and Sun? That I need to rest a while in the light of the Sun. To be at peace with the new things that I’ve discovered. Empress and Judgment? This has a unique meaning which I won’t disclose here. Justice and World? Not sure. That there has to be balance. Justice is Karma? Maybe there is something in this? Maybe it means that if I achieve this much I will have met my karmic burdens from past lives? High Priestess and Fool? Again, not sure. Holmes, I’m not sure this is what you originally intended but what do you think? It stretches out your idea a little. It would be interesting to go back over one's life to perhaps match the cards with actual experience but I don't have time to do that right now. This idea is a useful way of using the Lifetime cards , particularly the Personality/Soul cards in the overall framework of the major Arcana for looking at major spiritual milestones passed and perhaps awaiting. Thanks heaps. Moongold

HOLMES	01 May 2003
hi moongold :O) my feeling is both the soul and the personility cards are essential in this system, 1 to show you how close your personality has come to your soul 2. it gives you a measure, and a directiong to take your personality to move on to the next level (at least in my opnion :O) 3. and it gives us an indication that if the personality and the soul card are the same, then we are one big life experience, as compared to the dual nature of other lives times we had. regarding linerity of the journey, kabalisticaly speaking it isn't linear but we go up or down , according to the direction of our intentions, i would say the soul goes up , and the personality goes down as we try to expand into the cosmos. the purpose of the spread is to show you where you been, where you going, what you doing right and how all the archtypes deal with you . i decided to use my sytem to expand on the "soul cards " 7 with justice becomes 18 7 with wheel of fortone becomes 17 7 with hermit becomes 16, and since personality and soul cards are the same, this is a big life for you ,, as you go up to the cosmos by seperating yourself , and the tower is your shadow , as you exist in the now, the cosmics winds connect you to the star, and you know that there is a higher aspects in the universe. and as you go closer to the source by being responsible for your actions , you realize your deceptions. now let us see what this means on the spread :O) i am going to reinteprat the spread according to my knowledge as to offer differnt insights, (and i started to do this as not to correct others eheh ) My throw .......................CorrespondingMajor Arcana position 1. Temperance....... 1. Magician the best way to use your will at this, to reconnect to your power is to find your balance, through peace, and accept that since all is connected, one thing off balance causes a disease in the system. 2. Judgment............ 2. High Priestess the inutive self is reconnecting to you through all the spiritual awakneings within you :O) you recieve your insights as big flashes of sound coming to you and your say did you hear that,, i understand. 3. Fool....................................3. Empress the emperess energies of goddess and female earth is a big step for you , you are reaching inward , trusting your instincts and saying GERINOMO, you dont' know why you feel a connection to the impression but just that it feels right in your heart and you are accepting that. 4. Hierophant........... 4. Emperor your logical systems stems from the teachings of others, and the morals you develop. you have moved past developing your knowledge but teachings others, and through that teaching developed it further. 5. Strength.............. 5. Hierophant you know your ultimate teachings come from within you , and you feel a pull to find your inner strenght, to know your inner self, to harness all your instincts and tame them with like the woman who tames the lion not through force like hercules but through gentleness. this here is your key to teachings others gentleness and coming from a personal point of view. 6. Universe.............. 6. Lovers your are full of spiritual love not just for man but for the whole world and all the cosmos, there is no boundaries for your love, it is said love is a sword, and it can cut or save people , your want to save people and help people on the mass scale. 7. Devil................... 7. Chariot ah fear and bondage, but here i feel more fear. fear of expressing your power, of traveling and sharing your wisdom. it is a fear that others will judge you as dark, or coming from the ego. to release the chains and travel forth will move you chariot energies to the next card, and since this is your soul position, you fear yourself the most,, but it is ok for once you get to know yourself and all aspects of yourself, your full spiritual power(self power and confidence ) will be realized, in this life time. 8. Lovers................ 8. Strength despite the fear involved in the chariot and control of one self and ambitions of that said self, you are learning to love yourself and all aspects of yourself that is the first aspects of acceptanct and knowing yourself, :O) 9. Death .........................9. Hermit the change you seek in this life will come from isolation through mediation and seeking one connection to the cosmos and realizing the higherself is also the innerself just differnt aspects of the self that we see. (if i can relate the information through 7, you are travelign through the hermit by change, and connectiong to the tower which is very fitting, it means that is one of the ways your soul has chosent to work in this life time ) 10. Wheel of Fortune 10. Wheel of Fortune a true postion of the tarot for you , your truly accept the up and downs of the comsic winds and are able to flow with the upper flow to get higher and to sail safetly with the lower winds as to not fall into dispair (your chariot by wheel of fortune and accepting that wheel of fortune becomes the star, and you know there is a higher plan of life )

HOLMES	01 May 2003
11. Magician.............. 11. Justice you are relating well to the ideal of responbility of consquences and how we create our own reality you are dealing well with the notion everything we have wanted we have attracted to us, be it subsconsiouly, conscioulsy , and of course superconscioulsy :O) (the soul card and your own personality change to the moon comes by accepting responbility by will and knowing that we accept our delusions for we dont want to see what we have created. ) 12. Tower ........................12. Hanged Man you are shaking the foundations of your shadow by changing view on it constantly , is it evil, is it good, is it just lower aspects, denied aspects, lost aspects, or simply misunderstood natural aspects of our true self that we have learned to deny through evolution. the new view on life, you like to do it through dramatic big shakedowns, hey in the cosmic game of life it is fun when we are dealing with stuff masterfully :O) 13. Emperor............ 13. Death you are seeking to understand the nature of death and know it isn't romaticized, or pretty as some like to claim but neither is it dark and fearful like others claim, it is simply , an logical law of the universe. 14. Sun................... 14. Temperance you find your true balance and moderation through connecting to the light and soul, if you dont' do it consciously you certianlily do it by nature, the sun heals you and charges you up, and that is your power. 15. Star................... 15. Devil one could say that you see the light of the stars, and the darkness of earth, the yin and yang of life, i say that all you fears could ultimatly stem from the possible beleif there is nothing up there, or in us , we are simply human beings, and all alone in the night . 16 Chariot.............. 16. Tower the foundations of beliefs you seek to shake in this life is the active agression principle, is it isn't totally wrong as some would have us believe but necessary , and intentions and nature of those intentions can dictate the necessary evils we have to face and how we deal with them. you actively shake the foundations to test them be it books, others people sayings, and liek to debate. 17. Moon .........................17. Star the hope you seek to find is hard to see at this time due to the deceptions that are present in life, that is what to believe , who to believe in, what instincts to follow the lesson here is follow your compassions and knowledge of your own soul to see hope. 18. Hermit................ 18. Moon the hermit by hermit becoming the moon, here is a lesson that is could be true if we examine it , when we believe ourselves seperate from everything, and everyone, and through that seperation seek to understand ourselves by seeing ourselves seperate from ourselves ( higher self is seperate then us, the soul is seperate then us ) then the true deceptions reveal themselves in everything we do for we are not seperate on the energy levels or light levels or laws of the universe. 19. Hanged Man...... 19. Sun the light of the source you strive to see by taking a differnt view then others , they say this ,, but let us examine it by that and see if we examine at the same conclusions. you are willing to sacfrice yourself in order to find the truth 20. Empress........... 20. Judgment your spiritual awakening and judgement of yourself comes from how you relate to others as the spiritual mother would. a spiritualist doens't do this or that, and a possiblity to judge one by the receptive goddess ideal is there. 21. Justice.............. 21. World the world by 10, becomes 11, by ten becomes 1. you realize everything that happens in the world comes through will, and resonsbility to ourselves and to others, , the true world leader is one who will can affect the masses, this possiblity scares you and empowers you at the same time. 22. High Priestess.... 22. Fool the fool and highpriestress are related by english numerology ,, the justice card 11 becomes 2,, and 1-1=0 and justice through justice becomes the fool , 11 plus 11 becomes 22 this position tells me that you know everything really is connected, and the circle of life you understand well let me rephrase a comment from conand the barbarian movie i watched last night ( "all that mattered is two stood against many", foolish will , but personal will, and will can overcome the odds through planning ) (if you don't help me now crom then i say the hell with you) you know that the we are responsbile for our lives, the fool, highpriestress and justice all summ it up to this we claim we don't know why we did that, deep down inside we know why we did, and don't want to admit it to ourselves and others,, to accept true justice in our lives, and the fool tells us here yes we know why we did it , it is no mystery, and so i will move on to the next cycle. ) the chariot is pretty far up there on the journey of the tarot arcana, as you come to understand the cosmos , you are understand a great deal of cosmic law, and so your attention according to the spread is focused on seeking the eternity truth, also the chariot next postion is the logical extension of the star(17 is 10 plus 7 ) thus , you are coming close to achieving eternal truths as you can understand them and the true extension of your life in the now as it exists. coming closer to the source however is far, the closest card at the present is the hanged man. what does it mean to come closer to the source ? that eternity and infinity are the same. and by going upwards you will reach the source eventually :O)

Moongold	01 May 2003
Thank you Holmes. There is a lot here to think about. I became quite emotional when I read your interpretation and I really need some time to reflect. I will get back to you in a few days. Have missed a few days this week through illness and have some heavy work commitments for the next three days. There are some really important thoughts for me here, so if you can wait a few days I'd be grateful. Blessings Moongold

Moongold	02 May 2003
Greetings Holmes, This is simply a very important reading for me. At a deep level I feel it is accurate Some observations that you made are quite obviously true. Others I feel to be the truth but can’t articulate why right now. There are some points in the reading that I need to really think about. The reading is a very deep one. There are some things there that frighten me a little because I think they are truths. There are other things that are hopeful and encouraging and I hope they are truths. Thank you for this. It is a spiritual gift. Moongold.

HOLMES	09 Oct 2003
i am bumping this to share that i now have the karmic tarot book and the whole thing is based on very much on the idea of the major arcana order. except while i used major arcana only , the author uses all of the cards. i havent' read the whole book yet (can't seem to for i am having a mental block for the book , it seems i have a mental blook til i am ready to read it ) the author also gives all the card meanings for each postion so for those who like me need a good book to give you a jumpstart , that karmic tarot book will help understand this thread.

leto	10 Oct 2003
I'm really glad you bumped this thread. There are some really fascinating ideas to explore. My own spread: 1.Strength - Magician 2.Star (r) - High Priestess 3.High Priestess (r) - Empress 4.Moon (r) - Emperor 5.Magician - Hierophant 6.Wheel of Fortune (r) - Lovers 7.Tower (r) - Chariot 8.Justice (r) - Strength 9.Sun - Hermit 10.Temperance (r) - Wheel of Fortune 11.Fool - Justice 12.Lovers - Hanged Man 13.Death - Death 14.Judgement (r) - Temperance 15.Hanged Man - Devil 16.Chariot - Tower 17.Hermit (r)- Star 18.World (r) - Moon 19.Hierophant (r) - Sun 20.Emperor - Judgement 21.Devil (r) - World 22.Empress - Fool My soul/personality card is the Lovers My teacher card is the Devil Some interesting points for me: The Lovers came up in the Hanged Man position The Hanged Man came up in the Devil Position Death came up in Death The Tower came up in the Chariot position The Chariot came up in the Tower position Thanks for sharing this. There is just so much in it I can now work through/with.

sirona86	01 Feb 2004
thanks alot for this thread holmes, you've given me alot to reflect upon! i used the thoth for this throw so i exchanged the positions of the strength and justice cards. 1. hermit rx.....magician 2.temperance....priestess 3.the magician..empress 4.the fool....emperor 5.the devil....hierophant 6. chariot rx.....lovers 7.sun rx.......chariot 8.empress......justice 9.justice rx.......hermit 10.strength rx.......WOF 11. hierophant.....strength 12.priestess.....hanged man 13.moon.......death 14.hanged man.....temperance 15.lovers rx......devil 16.judgement rx.....16. tower 17star ....... star 18.tower rx.... moon 19.devil rx....sun 20. world........judgement 21.emperor rx........ world 22.fortune......fool my soul/personality card is the empress, which is at position number 8 on my throw. one thing that struck me doing this throw was the hierophant-priestess-moon-hanged man ( positions 11-14). all these cards seem to have a spiritual connotation of some sort and could indicate a spiritual awakening that i have yet to go through. other points i noted: the star is in the star positon. the star-tower rx-devil rx combination with ( 17-19) and the star-tower-devil (17 backwards to 15). just a couple of questions : How do you get your teacher and shadow cards?

Melvis	01 Feb 2004
An interesting throw, sirona86! Especially since your Shadow Card would be...the Star! The only card in its own position! Your "Hidden Factor" card(s) is/are the other card(s) in the Major Arcana that can reduce to the number of your Soul Card but is not your Personality Card. Yours is easy, because it sounds like your birthdate reduces to 8 exactly, so that is both your Soul and Personality card. Since 17 is the only other card in the majors that reduces to 8, it becomes your "Hidden Factor" card. Some people have two Hidden Factor cards -- my Personality/Soul Card is 4, the Emperor, so my Hidden Factors are 13, Death, and the Fool, which is sometimes considered the 22nd card. In this case, Mary Greer (whose books the Personality/Soul/Hidden Factor Cards are based on) is of the opinion that one of these two cards acts as a "Teacher" card and one acts as a "Shadow" card. When you only have one Hidden Factor card, it acts as both Teacher and Shadow at different points in your life. So it looks to me like your Hidden Factor card, The Star (17), must be about to play an important part in your life! Perhaps you are meant to share all that spirituality that shows up in positions 11-14 with the world. The Empress/Star Constellation (once again, a term from Mary Greer's books) seems to be a very caring, nurturing couple of cards to be associated with. (BTW: I'm doing all this from memory since I am at work and my books are at home, :rolleyes: so I apologize if I got anything wrong!) Peace, Melvis :TSTRE

Melvis	01 Feb 2004
Oops! One other thing I forgot... Holmes, I'm so glad you posted the note about reading the Karmic Tarot book, because I just read it, too! I thought of you right away when I saw the spread, because it reminded me of this thread so much! I was thinking of starting a new thread about that Spread this week, as I wanted to see who else has used it, and I wanted to chat about using your Personality Card, etc. within the spread. I won't be able to do it tonight, but perhaps Monday or Tuesday. Peace, Melvis :TSTRE

sirona86	01 Feb 2004
Quote: Your "Hidden Factor" card(s) is/are the other card(s) in the Major Arcana that can reduce to the number of your Soul Card but is not your Personality Card. Yours is easy, because it sounds like your birthdate reduces to 8 exactly, so that is both your Soul and Personality card. Since 17 is the only other card in the majors that reduces to 8, it becomes your "Hidden Factor" card. Some people have two Hidden Factor cards -- my Personality/Soul Card is 4, the Emperor, so my Hidden Factors are 13, Death, and the Fool, which is sometimes considered the 22nd card. In this case, Mary Greer (whose books the Personality/Soul/Hidden Factor Cards are based on) is of the opinion that one of these two cards acts as a "Teacher" card and one acts as a "Shadow" card. When you only have one Hidden Factor card, it acts as both Teacher and Shadow at different points in your life. actually adding up my birthdate, you'd get 1+1+4+1+9+8+6=30=3 so both my soul and personality cards would be the empress? my hidden factor cards would be 12 and 21, the hanged man and the world. tell me if i'm doing something wrong here...

HOLMES	02 Feb 2004
i been following your replies with great interests, i will interpate them when i get a chance and shed some light on where i come from, i think i will get energy in two days hence, (had a shadow self weekend :O)

HOLMES	22 Feb 2004
1+1+4+1+9+8+6 ah 2001 was a big year for you it says in numerology. (for life changing event that puts on their life path) that makes you a 3 card, the emperess, with the lessons of the following 3 through hermit becomes the card 12, 3 through wheel of fortune becomes the card 13 3 through justice becomes the card 14 all it works , is these are the highest ideaslt aht you are concnered with in this incarnation, balance of life, growth through change, and new views through sacfrice. all due to your love of the emotional self and how it affect your enviroment. oh oh i jut realized that you used the traditional numberings and not waite assocations. so for you it would be 3 through the strenght cards becomes the 14 card. so as the emperess card you deal with the all the minors card three of swords, three of pentacles, three of cups, three of pentacles that is the month april the 11 and not nover the 4 ? right for you are eiither the three of wands, ruled by aries the emperor card or the six of cups , ruled by scorpio the death card . also as the emperess card you deal mostly with these personalities aspect of yourself. queen of wands, queen of cups, queen of swords,and queen of pentacles, i didn't include 21 for me , that doesn't really matter, unless you were a 21. sufficent to say the world card however is the natural extension of the emperess who is concerned with the land. so while you focus in on the land emotionally, spiritually it is on the world. 1. hermit rx.....magician the magican is in conflict due to the hermit reversed energies of your journey. this means to me that you have trouble expressing your will as a form of higher will due to the lack of connectiong to the inner wisdom of your hermit self. the hermit is about being alone not for the sake of being alone but to reach upwards and inwards to find deeper and higher wisdom.that is what you crave when you try to create using the four elements. 2.temperance....priestess this is one of your power cards, and it is interesting for me to see it here . the balance you are seeking to achieve comes from the high priestress secret knowledge of wisdom. no one knows even knows what she knows hence they always go to her to see what it is that she can tell us. the balance of your life comes from the seeking , without the quest of the heroe journey you life becomes stagnant and falls out of balance. 3.the magician..empress another power postion (not power card) this is about your make up as opposed to what you came to learn. the emperess who is about emotional growth and feritile thoughts has come into contact with the magican who seeks to create through expressing his will. this says to you , when you express your will and create . use all your emotions for if you can't put yourself whole heartedly into the endevour it will most likely fail. 4.the fool....emperor you find reason and logic flawed for how can one reason the fool journey , it has to be experienced. the mind can not understand the spirit, but the spirit can move the mind to think new things and thoughts. and this is how you see things. 5.the devil....hierophant this is a direct lesson of the hierophant. heirphant through wheel of fortune becomes the devil. it is invovles the world , if the heirophant follows the flow of the universe and not his heart he may end up reversed due to the devil. yet if he direct the flow with what he knows he will end up beating his lower self instead. 6. chariot rx.....lovers the chariot has come into conflict with the lovers. the male self has trouble loving his female self. the lower self has trouble loving the higherself. it is about control, the male self strives to be in control (and if you are female it is your innerself who strives to be in control of your female self as example) 7.sun rx.......chariot and the reasons for the chairot become becoming revesed in the previous postion. is due to the lack of the connection to the father sun. or to the higher love fo the universe. see the chairot travels by the sun during the day, and without the sun the chariot has no direction to follow. the love of the universe has come into conflict with the male self as due to some ideal of judgement against the male aspect of god. not realizing there is both a female and source as well. 8.empress......justice your power card with the means to your lessons the emperess through justice becomes the temperance card.. so here it is doubly a means to look into. to look inward at the emperess is to see the mother, goddess archtype and the reasons why we have made some decisions in our lives. example mom alwasy told me to be a baseball player (i am not using that as an example) 9.justice rx.......hermit what we have here is two ways of learnings coming into conflict. the hermit being alone with his self to learn about his self is feared of facing the justice of oneself it is liken to the person who plays the music when they are alone as to avoid their own thoughts.(i do that a lot as well ). edited to say it is actually only one way of learning coming into conflict .

HOLMES	22 Feb 2004
10.strength rx.......WOF the wheel of fortune comes into conflict with strength, this indicates that you are to look at the persoanl power aspect and realize we do have the power to influence how the wheel of fortone spins, or as they say in knight tale, did he change his stars . 11. hierophant.....strength the inner strenght meets the teacher of the world. how you view personal power is how it is projected by the sucessful people of the world. the deeper relationship could be that religion gives you strenght and having something to follow gives you light to follow. 12.priestess.....hanged man one of the power postions for you the new views on life comes from examining the secrets of life and sacficing old beliefs based on those secretives ways. to put it another way, that which is out of the mainstream such as tarot, astrology but you can reconcile with your hieorpant teachings. 13.moon.......death another power postion for you. to change yourself is to see illusions in life, to examine the instincts of yourself vs the higher instincts of your divine self. 14.hanged man.....temperance the last power positon for you, and a power card as well , this is a power positon for you. the balance of life you feel can only be found by findings truths yes,, but applying them to your own life. there is a incredible thirst for knowledge and truth and sacfrice iwthin you. 15.lovers rx......devil people know the devil makes the lovers reversed. and here is the teaching why. it is the materialis, addiction, mistrust, power over one , or bondange that changes that which was one pure and beutiful into one of uglyiness and grey 16.judgement rx.....16. tower the tower comes into conflict with the judgement card. it is due to the fear of shaking things up for you are denying the spiritual awakening that is wanting to happend in your life. the call is awaken awaken, and you are saying , not yet , not yet. and the tower is saying i am ready to fall (for me i am getting an image to shake off all your christain thoughts and influences ?) 17star ....... star not a power card, postion, or way of learning, but powerful none the less for the star is in its actual postion. this says that your life will be full of hope and optism, and no matter how bad things get you will find a way through . it is the aquarius energy for you. 18.tower rx.... moon the moon comes into conflit with the tower. i refuse to see things past the illusion of magic of the night. due to the tower not wanting to fall. i will block as long as i can. 19.devil rx....sun the sun is into conflict with the devil. a belief is once we start our spiritual paths, we must deny our lowerselves, must act like perfect beings. in truth we must embrace our lowerselves to bring them out of the shadow into the light a little at a time. you don't have to give up all addictions in your life, but some would be nice. 20. world........judgement the spiritual awakening that will change your fully will occur as you explore the world. yes i think you shall explore for that is what i get from your need to complete quests and go on journeys. 21.emperor rx........ world the world is in conflict with your logic. there is a judgement here of the world being a bad place, but it can also be a good place, and it is up to our individual selves to find the good in it to realize it can be a hell or a heaven. 22.fortune......fool to find things anew, to follow your spirt will greatly depend on fortunes that come your way. when things are in the down cycle you see the bad, but when they are in the upcycle you see the good. that is true of most of us, the thing here is it affect you more. and do not realize the true fool self doesnt' change when things are bad , he just remians the same.

sirona86	27 Feb 2004
yes, my b'day is 11th april, not 4th november Quote: ah 2001 was a big year for you it says in numerology. (for life changing event that puts on their life path i think perhaps what you might be referring to here is the awakening of my 'abilities'. this was when i realised that i did actually have abilities, and decided that i wanted to develop them. led to my studying of the tarot as well. Quote: 1. hermit rx.....magician the magican is in conflict due to the hermit reversed energies of your journey. this means to me that you have trouble expressing your will as a form of higher will due to the lack of connectiong to the inner wisdom of your hermit self. the hermit is about being alone not for the sake of being alone but to reach upwards and inwards to find deeper and higher wisdom.that is what you crave when you try to create using the four elements. it is interesting that you say this. Indigo Rose was kind enough to do a reading for me, and i asked her what i could do to develop my abilities. her reading pointed out that my main problem was a lack of connection to my innerself, that i do no listen to my intuition as much as i should. Quote: 4.the fool....emperor you find reason and logic flawed for how can one reason the fool journey , it has to be experienced. this is exactly how i see things, holmes. i believe that things have to be experienced before we can learn from them. Quote: . chariot rx.....lovers the chariot has come into conflict with the lovers. the male self has trouble loving his female self. the lower self has trouble loving the higherself. it is about control, the male self strives to be in control (and if you are female it is your innerself who strives to be in control of your female self as example) 7.sun rx.......chariot and the reasons for the chairot become becoming revesed in the previous postion. is due to the lack of the connection to the father sun. or to the higher love fo the universe. see the chairot travels by the sun during the day, and without the sun the chariot has no direction to follow. the love of the universe has come into conflict with the male self as due to some ideal of judgement against the male aspect of god. not realizing there is both a female and source as well i suppose this relates to what you said about my belief that the lower self must be 'rejected' in order to reach the higher self. it is true that i have held this belief, but now that you point out that the lower self must be embraced not rejected, i see how it is flawed. thank you for giving me that to reflect upon.

The can this work with soul cards and personality cards. thread was originally posted on 19 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.