how many is too many?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
i wasn't sure if i should post this here or in the spreads section, but since this could cover many spreads and how people read, i'm putting it here...if it needs to be moved, pls do so... so, here is my query...how many cards do you consider to be too many to utilize in readings? i ask because i recently posted a reading i did for myself using a 7 card spread the same as the one outlined here i will copy and paste here...(from article copywritten by dan pelletier) * Seven Card Horseshoe 1. Recent Past 2. Present 3. Hopes and Fears 4. The Unexpected 5. The Gate 6. Near Future 7. Further Future Hopes and fears = Internal influence. Unexpected = Hidden external influence. The Gate = That which must be experienced - the lesson which was basically enough to give me the answer i was looking for...i don't necessarily use smaller readings than this...most of the spreads i use either use 10 or 9 cards...but it was mentioned that 7 cards was alot, so it got me curious as to what other people think of as alot... for a little background, when i started reading, i didn't have many books or anything and just kinda 'winged it' from the books i had (the pictorial key to the tarot, companion to RW deck & a complete guide to the tarot by eden gray)...both of which outlined the celtic cross, and that's basically all i've used for my 15 yrs of reading...i have been using different (smaller) spreads recently, but it is only the past yr or so that i've been doing that... now, over the years i've developed my own method for reading w/the celtic cross, which may or may not be in line w/the way others spread them out/interpret the cards (if anyone is interested, i'd be happy to post my method in the "spreads" forum...who knows? someone else might find it works for them as well...) i'm not sure, since i've never really had the chance to compare and contrast w/other readers before...but, depending on the complexity of the situation and the cards drawn, i can do a reading w/the cross in as little as 5 mins or as much as 3 hrs (*that* was exhausing, btw)...it all depends on the situation...but i don't find the cross difficult to work with, nor do i think it is "too many cards"...(at this moment, i was reminded of the movie Amadeus, where the emperor stated Mozart's music had "too many notes"...and Mozart insisted he had the exact amount of notes he needed...or something like that, heh) interestingly, i have a difficult time w/small spreads (three cards or less)... so, the question is "how many is too many?" do any others find comfort in "alot" of cards? do you prefer the smaller spreads? what are your opinions on this...please share...i'd love to learn more from all of you...(and hopefully offer up a few tasty morsels of knowledge myself) many blessings to all! ~azure

Khatruman	04 Apr 2003
I think it was Umbrae who posted a while back about the benefits of smaller readings, and how cards in larger readings become superfluous. I have been turning towards smaller readings myself. I think a smaller reading gets you to focus more on the wealth of meanings involved in any one individual card. There is a great idea used in Rachel Pollack's The Forest of Souls. In one of the readings she explains in the book, she did a three card reading, cutting the deck into three piles; However, she went into looking also at the bottom card of each pile, designating it the teacher card for that question. What is the nature of the question? Further, the card underneath that, she designates as the "lesson" card. What is the lesson that is being taught here? I don't have the book here to explain this better, but it does work amazingly well. Therefore, in a three card reading, you can actually consult nine cards, but it is only three aspects of an issue that you are reading, and being offered the opportunity to look back at the nature of these aspects and the lesson that they teach.

DarkElectric	04 Apr 2003
Hi Azuremariposa! The highest number of cards I ever use in an actual spread is 11. I'll also pull 2 extra ones if the outcome is sort of inconclusive, and I'll look at what's on the bottom of the deck as well. What I have found, is that big, huge readings with lots of cards intimidate clients, and are really overwhelming for me. They take up a lot of time and energy. And, the average person (If you're reading for someone else) gets downright bored to tears when you bring too many cards into it. Especially, if they don't know very much about tarot. You lose them completely by card number 16, or so, and they never come back to you again! However, this just happened to me. I laid out a 6 card spread for someone, and even though the reading was good, they felt that there weren't enough cards laid out for the price...so I ended up throwing another small spread in for free. I find that anywhere from 9 to 11 cards works well for me, and my clients feel as though they are getting their money's worth.

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
Quote: i will definitely have to look into getting this book, b/c this method sounds very interesting to me...i instinctively always check the bottom card from the cut, and keep that in mind while reading (didn't realize others did that too...i'm so sheltered! ;) hehe)...*sigh* more stuff to add to my amazon wishlist :D you people are terrible...i've even added more decks to my "lusting after" list the past few days...terrible...*shakes head* Hi DarkElectric! well, as i stated, i've exclusively used the celtic cross for 15 yrs or so...i never (thought i) needed anything else, so it was all i used...i can't imagine pulling more cards than that, but have become very fond of the 7 card spread i outlined originally...i've never had someone say there weren't enough cards! lol...but i suppose it could happen...everyone has an idea of what Tarot is & what a reading should look like, so you usually have to deal w/that when reading for others...thank you both for your input...i appreciate it very much! many blessings to all!!

Astraea	04 Apr 2003
In tarot, as in so many other things, time and again it strikes me that "less is more." I agree with those here who have said that fewer cards tend to sharpen the lens. I find that the humble three-card spread brings a wealth of material into clear focus (and one can always add cards, as necessary, if amplification is needed). I rarely use more than eight cards in a spread, and never that many for myself -- three or four, tops.

Rose	04 Apr 2003
I really don't have much to add. I agree that 3 card spreads are very effective. I do use up to 11 cards, depending on the purpose of the reading. For yearly spreads like horoscope spreads or yearly forecast spreads (great for birthdays)up to 25 cards--but each position is like a little mini reading. I definitely think that too many cards can just muddy the waters and confuse the person you are doing the reading for. "Too many cards" made me remember reading something by a well-known tarot author (don't remember who) that they do a 78-card reading each year for a friend. Blew my mind at the time I read it. I'm obsessing trying to remember who and where I saw it. Rose

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
thank you all for your input! :) i guess i am in the minority as a "celtic cross"-lover, but that is ok...i will definitely try to work more w/smaller readings to increase my comfort level with them... and Rose, i can't imagine using all 78 cards! yikes!! that's definitely mind blowing! :D many blessings to all...

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
ok, i know i just posted, but i had to share this little bit on this thread (b/c it's relevant, that's why! ;) hehe)... a friend of mine emailed me yesterday asking for two readings, one general "where is fate taking me?" kind, the other question was more complicated...basically her and her fiance are thinking of having children...problem is he had a vasectomy and they will need to get it reversed...she never wanted kids before, but would like to have them w/him... so, here i am, thinking "what the hell kinda spread am i gonna do for that??" :eek: i remembered the input given here and decided to draw three cards w/the question of "will J & J be able to have kids?" no specific meaning to the placement...just 3 cards... well, wouldn't you know?? hehe... i drew the queen of swords, the magician, and the king of cups... quick version of this being: she has no kids, is a very intelligent woman, and she's the kind of person to know what she wants; it's gonna be a feat of "magic" to reverse the vasectomy, who better to do it than the magician? ;) ; and who could be more fertile (artistic, creative, etc.) than the king of cups?? :D of course, i'm going to go into more detail for my friend, but in either case, i guess everyone is right...3 cards does a pretty good job! thanks for letting me share this...and thanks for all your input...i'm glad i asked this today... many blessings to all!

firemaiden	04 Apr 2003
Good for you Azuremariposa (love your name by the way). That was a very interesting illustration of the power of a three card reading. I really enjoyed that, thank you. p.s. Your posts are always very interesting and thoughtful, and make a wonderful contribution here (so don't worry about having "just posted")

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Good for you Azuremariposa (love your name by the way). That was a very interesting illustration of the power of a three card reading. I really enjoyed that, thank you. p.s. Your posts are always very interesting and thoughtful, and make a wonderful contribution here (so don't worry about having "just posted") awww...thank you, firemaiden! :) i was beginning to wonder if i sounded like an idiot or something (must be in the air today, wondering that kinda thing...) hehe...i like the exchange of thoughts/ideas here and i find myself responding to people's comments and such right away b/c i can't contain myself...and i probably should hold off a bit and respond to a bunch at once, but...well...i'm too impatient for that :D so, i find myself responding to everything...and babbling...so, i'll stop... many, many blessings to all... p.s. by the by, i love your name too! :)

Trogon	04 Apr 2003
Howdy Azuremariposa, I would definitely say that you found yourself an excellent illustration of how a small spread can do the job! I will only add that I do have a few spreads which I use on a regular basis... these include the Celtic Cross, a couple of 5 and 7-card spreads and a few 3-card spreads. I guess I'm suggesting you tailor the reading (number of cards used, type of spread) to the querrent and their question. Also, in reference to using your own version of a Celtic Cross spread, you might want to check this thread; Your Personal Version of the Celtic Cross p.s. I'll add my vote for loving your name as well... ;)

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
Thank you, Trogon (for input as well as the compliment! ;) hehe) i figured there would be a thread on the subject of personal versions of the celtic cross...i was just too lazy to hunt it down as of yet :| yes, i think i will definitely utilize this little 3 card spread more often, and your advice was dead on: Quote: originally posted by Trogon: I guess I'm suggesting you tailor the reading (number of cards used, type of spread) to the querrent and their question. absolutely...the 3 cards suit her needs perfectly in that case, but for her other question, i used (my trusty old friend) the celtic cross...i've had much success lately w/the 7 card spread described, and have tried a smaller 5 card version as well w/some success...even though i've been reading Tarot for 15 yrs, i find that i'm relatively new to alot of things (different spreads, decks, etc.)...which is why i love this place so much...:D (though i must say again, you people are terrible...now i want all these different decks, and i'm even (insert scary music here) contemplating the task of creating my own deck...i used to be quite an artist once upon a time *sigh*...so, yes, you people are just terrible!! :D but i love ya for it!) many blessings, and when i have time i will post to that thread, Trogon...;)

Khatruman	04 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by azuremariposa ...when i do smaller readings i have a tendency to rattle off more from intuition than the cards themselves...it makes me delve deeper into MY subconscious, which i don't always enjoy doing...;) You talk like your intuition and the cards are two different things. I think that's where the depth should come from! I see the cards as a springboard to the depths of your abilities and the amazing knowledge and abilities inside you. I am sure you have a beautiful mind. :D Quote: *sigh* more stuff to add to my amazon wishlist :D you people are terrible...i've even added more decks to my "lusting after" list the past few days...terrible...*shakes head* Hah! You should see what they are doing to ME!!! I think there are four decks on their way to me at some point from various places: Adrian (via truthsayer), Shakespearian (via ebay), Waking the Wild Spirit (via RedWood), and Brian Williams' Minchiate (via half.com). Whew, and I am still exploring the Victoria Regina, Tarot of the Spirit, Fey Tarot, Tarot of the Imagination, Ancient Minchiate, and Voyager Tarot, which I have just gotten in the past few weeks... Whew... And I haven't even told you about my wish list... These people here addict you!! }) Muahahahahaha!

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman You talk like your intuition and the cards are two different things. I think that's where the depth should come from! I see the cards as a springboard to the depths of your abilities and the amazing knowledge and abilities inside you. I am sure you have a beautiful mind. :D well, sometimes they are...sometimes they aren't...sometimes i get impressions that have nothing to do with the cards i've drawn...but i think i didn't express myself correctly there...i dunno...it's too late at night now, but sometimes i scare the crap out of people w/the stuff i tell them...and it's usually w/o the assistance of the cards...and i'd like to think i have a beautiful mind...but i think we all do :D...you too! Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Hah! You should see what they are doing to ME!!! I think there are four decks on their way to me at some point from various places: Adrian (via truthsayer), Shakespearian (via ebay), Waking the Wild Spirit (via RedWood), and Brian Williams' Minchiate (via half.com). Whew, and I am still exploring the Victoria Regina, Tarot of the Spirit, Fey Tarot, Tarot of the Imagination, Ancient Minchiate, and Voyager Tarot, which I have just gotten in the past few weeks... Whew... And I haven't even told you about my wish list... These people here addict you!! }) Muahahahahaha! heh...addict is right! i have about 10 decks on my "lusting after" list...5 more that i really like, but it's not up to lust yet...and now...to top it all off...i'm even considering creating my own deck...terrible...just terrible!! :D

Khatruman	04 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by azuremariposa well, sometimes they are...sometimes they aren't...sometimes i get impressions that have nothing to do with the cards i've drawn... still think you aren't giving yourself enough credit.. :D If they are impressions you received, then they have something to do with what's going on.. and the cards have something to do with what's going on... two parallel works! I think at this point Umbrae would be screaming "THROW AWAY THE BOOKS!!!" :P

azuremariposa	04 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman still think you aren't giving yourself enough credit.. :D If they are impressions you received, then they have something to do with what's going on.. and the cards have something to do with what's going on... two parallel works! I think at this point Umbrae would be screaming "THROW AWAY THE BOOKS!!!" :P what books? i have only read two books on tarot, and they were only for the meanings back when i was learning them...it's been ages since i touched a book...yes, i admit that both are working in parallel...but i was psychic before i started utilizing tarot for deeper understanding...what i was referring to are impressions that i get from the person, just from being in their presence...yes, the cards are also being utilized...and yes, i'm getting messages from both...but let's say (for argument's sake) that someone comes to me for a reading...they come for something basic, so i do a 3 card reading...while i am doing their reading, suddenly i am getting messages from their deceased grandmother...yes, the two are related b/c if the person didn't come for the reading, i wouldn't be hearing from their dead relative, but at the same time, the grandmother and the cards might not be giving me the same message... i don't know why stuff like this rarely happens when i do more involved spreads, but it seems to happen more often when i do, what i term, quickies... anytime i had attempted smaller spreads earlier in my reading experience (i.e., before 1-2 yrs ago...more like 5-10 yrs ago), they had never made much sense to me...i was stuck in rigid thinking as to the cards, so other "talents" would kick in...i guess this is what i was trying to impart, but i'm not even sure about that anymore! ;) in either case, sometimes i am uncomfortable w/the things that i learn about other people, and this is why i try to tune it out, or why i don't "like it"...*sigh* i don't know how else i could explain it...i think that's about it... in recent years, i've been able to delve deeper into the cards however, so i've become more comfortable w/smaller readings, though 3 card ones still intimidate me to some extent...i really liked the one i did today, so i think i will continue to use that "style", so to speak... so, anyway...no books to throw away...and i could never throw away a book anyway...been in love w/them since 2-3 yrs old...:D many blessings to all... and Khatruman...you be da bomb diggy, baby...;)

Rose	04 Apr 2003
Just a quick post to say that the 78-card spread I babbled about earlier is Rachel Pollack's Tree of Life reading in the book Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom. Rose

galadrial	05 Apr 2003
I do a daily 3 card spread, but during significant life changes I seem to be drawn to 12 card spreads. Some of my favorites are the Great Spiral (can be found at http://www.loscarabeo.com/spreads/navigatore.htm though I modified it some for my own use), one I call the "Gypsy Gold "spread because I got it from a young adult book by that name (can't remember the author, I'm afraid), and the "Diamond" spread from the Baseball Tarot.

Trogon	06 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Hah! You should see what they are doing to ME!!! I think there are four decks on their way to me at some point from various places: Adrian (via truthsayer), Shakespearian (via ebay), Waking the Wild Spirit (via RedWood), and Brian Williams' Minchiate (via half.com). Whew, and I am still exploring the Victoria Regina, Tarot of the Spirit, Fey Tarot, Tarot of the Imagination, Ancient Minchiate, and Voyager Tarot, which I have just gotten in the past few weeks... Whew... And I haven't even told you about my wish list... These people here addict you!! }) Muahahahahaha! What???? No Röhrig Tarot??????

The how many is too many? thread was originally posted on 04 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.