I am reaaly anoyed please help

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Amythist	07 Apr 2003
Is it important to know about myths allusions terminology, occlut When you are studing yourself as all my work and portfolio has justy been cussed and i am angery

galadrial	07 Apr 2003
I'm not sure I entirely understand your question. By important do you mean to the study of Tarot, or to society? If the former, I think that knowing myths, allusions and the general terminology of the occult (although that covers a lot more ground than I'll ever know!), enhances the study of Tarot but is not necessary; except maybe to understanding a specific deck that is trying to combine tarot with a particular myth, culture, etc. As to the importance of the occult to the world...well, it is important to me no matter what the world thinks; I don't value the world's ideals much anyway. My brother thinks it is quite worthless. My husband thinks it is an o.k. hobby, but does not take it seriously. My good friend, whom I occasionally do readings for, thinks it is wonderful. As with so many things, I think we must each look to our own hearts to decide whether it has value.

Amythist	07 Apr 2003
someone told me i need to know about all them things as if you dont them you dont know nothing about tarot . I love the study and things but i am my own tutor i will learn things at my own pace. my 4000 page portfolio is worthless cos i dont know any of the meanings cos i never new they excisted

HOLMES	07 Apr 2003
Is it important to know about myths allusions terminology, occlut When you are studing yourself as all my work and portfolio has justy been cussed and i am angery 1. the tarot is a personal experience, you can study it all, and not study at all, and still give good readings as long as one applies themselves. experience is what makes the good tarot reader through practice. . 2. you really got a 4000 page pportfolia ? that is like 13 300 pages books. (or is this an extension of truth like once you told me you had a 100 book of the tarot in your drawer )? 3.for if the 4000 page portfolio was true it would have something of meaning. in some way 4. it is good to know about mythos, allusions (what does that work mean eheh ) terminology , occult associations, as i come from a inuitive and study approach which makes a well rounded tarot reading imo. (in my opnion )

Minos	07 Apr 2003
<> Tell them to get stuffed! <> There are any number of good books on mythology out there, especially Greek myth. At the really simple level, there's D'Aulaire's Book Greek Myths. There's also Bullfinch's mythology, which is a little dated, but has the advantage of covering Greek myths and King Arthur and medieval stuff, plus it's free online: http://www.bulfinch.org/ Just remember, learn this stuff for you, not 'cuz some ass told you you had to. It'll be more enjoyable that way, and you'll learn more.

Amythist	07 Apr 2003
I did have 100 books taking up 2 draws but i am down to 30 books as i have sold some. yay like i said i am a good studier. Yes i have got a folder as big as that but i declaired today i must start a new folder as all the work is gamed so a folder is closed. I dont only study tarot i study all kinds of things like witvhcraft spirits ect

Amythist	07 Apr 2003
I find stuying myths really boring but i love studing tarot and as i feel that way i dont have a clue. :-( i am really anoyed. How can you like tarot but hate studying the rest. Well i am picky. :-) LOL Only cos i said it is about time i started a new folder. I got canned and dished i am really anoyed. Thanks for chearing me up

Amythist	07 Apr 2003
I have told them i can still learn with out knowing them :-) it depends on the indidual am i right

Mojo	07 Apr 2003
There is a big difference between reading the Tarot and reading the Tarot really well. Anyone with a basic understanding of the cards can eek out a reading. Those with a good imagination might be able to even make it entertaining. However, if you really want to impress yourself as well as your clients, you need to have a broad base of arcane knowledge that you can draw on. Tarot is all about telling stories. To tell stories, you have to know stories. Mythology can be boring if you're expected to memorize a list of gods and goddesses and their associations like they make you do in school. However, if you read them as stories, they can be quite entertaining. Likewise, understanding of history and social custom will enhance your Tarot experience. Personally, I find the occult useless, but that's based on my own belief system and style of reading. I would rather base my readings on the historical and mythological bases, as this makes them much more believeable in my opinion. It all depends on how seriously you take your approach to the Tarot.

Khatruman	07 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minos <> Tell them to get stuffed! Personally, I like this advice. Don't be ruled by those opinions that tell you that you must possess all these correlations to every occult system devised by man. It was all pasted onto tarot anyway. Sure, you may learn astrology, kabbalah, sun signs, i-ching, runes, gemology, sacred geometry, etc. etc. but someone will always say there is something you don't know. That said, I agree with Mojo's advice also, in looking at it as storytelling. You become a better storyteller through understanding the workings of other mythical stories. It does help to have these as a background, not for memorization of associations, but for an inner sense of how myth works. There are tons of mythological sites online, just browse some stories, feel the aspect of storytelling there, and let yourself become infused by it.

Minos	07 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman You become a better storyteller through understanding the workings of other mythical stories. It does help to have these as a background, not for memorization of associations, but for an inner sense of how myth works. There are tons of mythological sites online, just browse some stories, feel the aspect of storytelling there, and let yourself become infused by it. Although there is a disadvantage to reading (for example) Greek myths in this form, since they are divorced from their original context and lose a lot of their interest thereby. Like take the story of Persephone and Demeter. It wasn't just a bedtime story, nor was it only a fanciful way of explaining spring and winter. It was the back-story of the Eleusinian mysteries. Your average mythology primer doesn't fill in this crucial detail, which makes the story much more powerful even if we don't fully know what went on there. I didn't answer the second part of the original question, which was about occult stuff - I would assume Kabbalah etc. I can't think of a better primer than Crowley's Book of Thoth, though Crowley's old-fashioned prose style may not be up everyone's alley.

Khatruman	07 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minos Although there is a disadvantage to reading (for example) Greek myths in this form, since they are divorced from their original context and lose a lot of their interest thereby. Of course, and I totally agree. I was responding to Amythist's frustrations at being told she must know everything in order to read the cards. I would like anyone to know as much as they can, and I think the more background, understanding, and knowledge one has, the better one can be, but frustration often comes from being told that what one is doing is invalid unless one has a certain store of knowledge. I am trying here to open up a pathway to encourage further learning, and that doesn't usually come from being told that you must have a certain level of understanding. If I told my students that they needed to have a certain basis of knowledge they didn't get in their schooling (and in my urban district, my students are quite disadvantaged) or they shouldn't even try to go to college, there would be very few of them who would aplly to college. I don't lie to them; I tell them it will be tough, but I tell them they have the ability to try, and enjoy what they are doing, and get something out of college.

HudsonGray	07 Apr 2003
Well, it would make sense to know about symbols in your deck. If you've got the Haindl for instance not only does it have tarot symbolism in it, it's got Runes & Quaballah influences also--to fully use the deck you need to know something about all of them. Just as a study of Medieval history/culture would benefit you if you were using the Marsailles, since that's what the deck is based around & the images of the people on the cards solidly reflects this. And if you're using a pagan deck, knowing what the standard pagan symbols (cup, athame, pentacle, wand, etc.) mean would help interpret the leanings of the cards. So basically, yes, your friend is right in a way. I have no idea which deck(s) you use, but anything that's pertinent to them can benefit from some added study of the symbology being used in them that the artist decided to put there. (Imagine trying to use the Whimsical Tarot without knowing the fairy tales & children's nursery rhymes that go with each card!).

Cerulean	07 Apr 2003
...I enjoy the other answers that were given... For me, the important thing is to know that deck that works for me at the time. If you have confidence in your deck choice for yourself, that really carries over in other areas... If you truly enjoy your time with your decks of choice, what a wonderful thing. You're probably doing what many wannabees in the world ache to do--interact with symbols and ideas and find meaning. You may have or desire a specialty in knowing about angels or magical animals and help us when it comes to talking about such themes, in tarots or other divination guides. So when others suggest to me guides and resources, I am thankful that there's another area of interest opening up...sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it leads to a better choice for me. And you are right, it takes time to find out about these choices. I wish you well in your studies. Mari Hoshizaki

Minos	08 Apr 2003
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Of course, and I totally agree. I was responding to Amythist's frustrations at being told she must know everything in order to read the cards. I would like anyone to know as much as they can, and I think the more background, understanding, and knowledge one has, the better one can be, but frustration often comes from being told that what one is doing is invalid unless one has a certain store of knowledge. I am trying here to open up a pathway to encourage further learning, and that doesn't usually come from being told that you must have a certain level of understanding. Totally agree. I just wrote that in answer to Amythist saying that she found myths boring to read. Personally, I used to hate myths. I thought the stories didn't make any sense, and I thought they were pretty dumb explanations for natural events. Then someone clued me into the idea that every myth has a ritual hiding behind it. That made things a lot more interesting. Even if you don't know about the context for sure, trying to reconstruct it in your head can make it a lot more fun. So that's one thing that's made mythology come alive for me; I was just offering it out in case others found it helpful. Love is the Law, Love under Will.

Mimers	08 Apr 2003
Amythist, Hi I wanted to throw in my opinion as well, because I could really sense your frustration in this thread and others. When I read your posts, I can see how you have a thirst for knowledge and to learn and grow. I also sense your desire to go about things in the right way. These are great characteristics in you. I think you need to remember that learning takes time and you have the rest of your life to learn. Take it slow. There is such a thing as information overload. If Tarot is what you are interested in study it. As you go along you will naturally learn more about the other concepts that it is built upon. I know nothing about Kabala(spelling?) or the Tree of life. I know nothing about Paganism. I don't know much about Chakras or numerology for that matter either. When I first started learning about Tarot I felt that I had to learn about these things as well, or I would miss something. Now I realize that I don't need to learn everything all at once. Hope this helps you. Just take it easy. Take the time to enjoy what you are learning. Take care, Mimers

Khatruman	08 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minos Then someone clued me into the idea that every myth has a ritual hiding behind it. That made things a lot more interesting. Even if you don't know about the context for sure, trying to reconstruct it in your head can make it a lot more fun. What a great way to gain interest in mythology. It gives you something to seek out. I recently learned that many of the myths concerning the Greek God Zeus were a composite of local myths regarding a supreme deity, which is why Zeus looks like such a horn-ball! :P When Greece united under a larger leadership, they turned these local myths into stories on Zeus, so you have Zeus, father of just about everything!

azuremariposa	08 Apr 2003
of course you can learn without knowing them... if you were to make a study of every mythological story, from every culture, you'd be reading for ages...and to know other practices of occult is absolutely unnecessary for a study of the Tarot... while i agree that these things can enrich your knowledge, no they are not necessary... many blessings...

Silverlotus	08 Apr 2003
While I don't think you have to know everything there is to know about myths or the occult to be able to use tarot, I believe it can be helpful. If, as you say, you are using tarot for purpose of self-discovery, then studying myths can be very helpful. Myths, and the gods, goddess, and heros in them, are all archetypes. By understanding these archetypes, you might be better able to understand yourself and the tarot (since the Major Arcana are based on universal archetypes). An excellent book is Goddesses in Everywoman by Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D. Of course, you say you find myths boring. Well, personally I love them. Why? Because they tell wonderful stories. And they also teach a lot about where certain ideas began. If you read myths about Venus/Aphrodite you learn that Cupid was her son, and you can learn why he we use him as a symbol for Valentines Day, for example. As for occult knowledge, it's a bit more difficult. Learning the Kabalah or any other similar system is a life's work in and of itself. My advice, and what I try to do, is learn enough to understand what others are talking about. If I discover that I am interested in this topic, I will try to study it more deeply. And each time I learn something new, the cards seem to give me more information. I've come a long way from just seeing the images as pretty pictures, now I see many hidden messages I may not have seen if I hadn't studied these other topics. I am the kind of person who likes to learn everything at once, so I can understand the frustration there too. But tarot, like self-discovery, is a life long task. And a lesson learned after much studying is much sweeter then something told to you by another person. And studying myths, Kabalah, colour symbolism, etc. will give you a much more well rounded base from which to learn these lessons. It takes time, and goodness knows I don't know even 0.1% of everything there is to know, but the journey is the best part. So, I guess my advice is, pick a topic to complement your tarot study, be it myths (and don't just limit yourself to Greek and Roman myths, there are myths from every culture out there), Kabalah, Runes, or whatever. See how it helps you learn more about yourself and tarot, and then go from there. But if you don't want to learn anything but tarot, then I guess there is no advice I can give you. Except maybe please pick more descriptive topics for your posts. Something like "Is Myth and Occult Knowledge Needed" would have been more helpful in figuring out what this thread was about. :) Good luck, Amythist!

HappyHardy	10 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Amythist Is it important to know about myths allusions terminology, occlut When you are studing yourself as all my work and portfolio has justy been cussed and i am angery As the other party in this conversation I must say, Amythist, that your perception of what transpired in different than is mine. However, your version does make the point that you read what you want to read, not what is written. You asked me to help you understand the tarot better. I told you that one of the ways to do that was to learn the terminology that other tarot student may use: allusion, metaphor, allegory, occult, arcana, myth, etc.. You in turn became defensive and said that if wasn’t in The Beginner’s Tarot is must not be important to tarot. I told you to look the terms up in the dictionary and even mentioned that if you did not have a dictionary that there were several available on line. You told me you used the dictionary every day… I NEVER “cussed” at you. I went out of my way to answer your questions with care and deliberation. I did NOT say your portfolio was worthless, indeed I said that 4,000 pages was impressive, but when I asked you what was in your portfolio you couldn’t, or wouldn’t tell me; “Notes” you said. I suggested that you may be better off learning what was in your notes rather than making more notes. Yes, I did suggest that having a better grasp of the symbols of the tarot would be a good ideas. You told me you were your own best teacher and that you didn’t need to do anything. You became defensive and at that point and I admit that in my frustration I told you to look up the word dilettante and told you if you wanted to be more than a dabbler you needed to know the terminology that you were encountering. Amythist, for several days I laboured to understand your 25-card layout: the layout of which you said, ”I have done the long spread for a long out come…” You were evasive and make excuses about how you used the spread. You told me you read the cards for money, and then became defensive and argumentative when I asked you to share a reading with me so that I could see how you “worked with” 25-cards. 25-cards in a spread that has no stated purpose, no positional meanings, and no guidelines for reading. In one sentence you would say you were new to tarot, in the next you were saying what a whiz-bang reader you are, and how much knowledge you possess, not only about tarot, but about healing, crystals, and witchcraft. You told me you were studying witchcraft, crystals, and tarot in college…I remarked that it must be a very progress school. You issued a challenge to create a spread with 25-cards and to define each position. I met your challenge, and added a sample reading of the spread, and you still offered evasions and excuses. However, I cannot blame you for being angry with me and with our exchanges, both public and private. I challenged you, I saw through your masquerade, and I called your bluff. Being angry with me is easier than being honest. To veracity! HappyHardy

Kiama	10 Apr 2003
Hmmm... I think I'd agree with the first part of HappyHardy's post (The bit about understanding the terminology other Tarot readers use). It helps you navigate your way around the Tarot world easier, and understand what others are saying about Tarot. For instance, if somebody didn't know what a Major Arcana was, they would find it immensely difficult understanding what anybody else said about the cards. I'm not saying you don't know what Major Arcana means, but I used it as an example because I cannot think of a better one right now. The terminology HappyHardy pointed to is very useful for the understanding of others' talk about Tarot. The fact that it isn't in the Beginners Tarot is because it takes you a step further than beginner. Having a good knowledge of basic symbols (Such as bird, circle, moon, etc) can help immensely when trying to understand what a particular card is about. Having a basic understanding of myths can be handy too, (But more so if you actually own a deck based on mythology) It isn't essential to READING the cards, but when it comes to understanding the concepts within each card it can be very useful. For instance, I have only just begun to understand the deeper significance of teh Hanged Man card because of my studies of mythology and mysticism. (For more on this, read my post in Spirituality entitled 'Dark Night of The Soul: Mysticism') Saying all this though, I didn't have a clue what Qabalah was until roughly 5-6 years into my Tarot studies! I actually learned about Qabalah through the Tarot, instead of the other way round! These things occur with time. I've been studying Tarot 9 years (Soon to be 10!), and things are only just beginning to come into real focus for me. I am only just reallt starting to understand the mythological associations of the cards, and it's only been since September that I've understood anything about Qabalah. Thes ethings come with time, and the journey to them is, well, amazing! Kiama

Mysti	10 Apr 2003
I watched the exchange that took place between Happy Hardy and Amythist. Amythist, I was quite sadly surprised when I saw your posts here. I did not see that HH was "cussing" you in any way at all. She tried very hard to understand what you were speaking of, and tried to point out to you things that would help you in your Tarot journey. You would make a statement, and then when she would ask for clarification you would make an opposing statement rather than give her a direct response to her question. For instance, you claimed you were taking the course there, and then claimed you were learning on your own and didn't want any help. You asked for help with a 25 card reading, and then wouldn't give the necessary information for anyone to help you with it. Amythist, the whole thing confused the dickens out of me. I'm sure it was confusing for others as well. I'm very weak in my knowledge of the symbols and mythologies, and I find as I learn more I understand the meaning of the cards more. I also find that defining the positional attributes of a reading beforehand certainly clarifies what the message is. A 25 card reading would be overwhelming for me, and without the positions defined, it would be total chaos. If you can manage all that, then my hat is certainly off to you. I realize this is a very rude way to introduce myself to this forum, and I hope to make up for that in the near future. I read a lot while visiting here before, and I like the atmosphere here very much. Love and peace, Mysti

Major Tom	10 Apr 2003
So, Amythist, I've asked you before, what will you give back to this community? Do you understand why I couldn't help you when you telephoned me the other night? There's loads of folks want to help you. Let them.

Sulis	11 Apr 2003
Major Tom do you know Amythist, or did you know Amythist before she came to Aeclectic? Sorry if I`m being nosey, it`s just - she`s got your phone number!! Love and light crystalmynx xx

The I am reaaly anoyed please help thread was originally posted on 07 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.