Indians..

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mingbop	14 Apr 2003
This may sound weird ,but is important to me. Do any of you know if the Tarot is offensive in any way to native americans?

cjtarot	14 Apr 2003
mingbop I am not Native American (or at least not enough to count) BUT, what I have found is there are people in every ethnic group that find the Tarot offensive for some reason or another. IN MY OPINION.. From what I do know, Native American religion has elements of divination and soul searching. So why would another form of divination (cards in place of shamonic journey) be offensive. Blessings and I hope other respond. CJ

galadrial	14 Apr 2003
This is pretty second hand, but a girlfriend of mine has been attending a non-Christian Native American church for some time- I don't know much about the ceremonies, except she recently has been invited to have a cleansing ceremony done for some past traumas in her life. She has "messed around" with tarot in the past, and has just taken up studying it intensivly, so I know she has no conflict.

magpie9	14 Apr 2003
None of my Native American kin are against the tarot except the Baptists. :D Seriously, I know that spiritual beliefs and such vary not only from tribe to tribe, but also by what spiritual leader you may be learning from. Kinda like there are a lot of Protestant Churches, divided into Lutheren, Anglican, Church of Christ, Baptist. Each of there is again divided into the Parishes of individual ministers. It works much the same way. Because of Inter-tribalism that has developed in many areas, the divisions are not as clearly seen from outside the Native traditional Paths. I don't think there is an absolute yes or no answer to this question.

HOLMES	14 Apr 2003
being a native canadian in canada. we have some views here. 1. it is not our way our spiritilty 2. (when i showed people the native american tarot (at the time the tarot of the southwest tribes and the questor tarot and quest tarot (native americna one ) were not made) they say either that one for it is native american which puts a smile one my face. or BAH they taking a brunch of native indian traditons and mishmashing them. *many of the people like to keep the tradtions secrets even so from that point of view it is understandable* and so they say that is not our way that is so and so tribe , why you use it. that comes from the true purist who says we should only follow the ojibwe tradtions as i am ojibwe.

ihcoyc	14 Apr 2003
I can only imagine what Natives who actually follow their traditional spiritual practices make of all of those Llewellyn-style How to Be a Shaman Even If You're a White Person Living In the City, in Just Five Minutes a Day, Without Quitting Your Day Job books. I'd imagine that Tarot decks that purport to incorporate Native imagery probably strike them as That Sort of Thing as well. All the more reason to keep it real.

truthsayer	14 Apr 2003
i moved this thread from the tarot decks section to talking tarot where i think it will get more attention.

truthsayer	14 Apr 2003
even though i'm a fan of the vision quest deck, imho it really isn't native american. the closest NA deck i have found is the "star who never walks around" by stella bennett. she is actually NA and was taught traditional NA spiritual beliefs by her grandmother. she has also studied tarot for 50 years. aside from that, my feeling about NA spirituality is that every tribe has beliefs that are different from other NA groups. i say this b/c i've been to lots of different churches that proclaim to be christian. however, each church has a different way of doing things. some are very formal and ritualized. others believe in speaking in tongues or snake handling.

magpie9	14 Apr 2003
I think the question asked was, is it offensive? Which I see as different from , 'Is it our way?', or ''Is it traditional to do it?' o''r Is it ok to do it? or anything like that. Holmes, I believe, answered that the most traditional in his tribe wold say tht it is not our tribe's tradition, so implying, don't do it? Or meaning, that it is of no interest? Or just that there is no connection? My kin are long gone from the traditional ways....we held on to very little, and took to Christianity too well. The real traditional stuff is not spoken of, commonly. Or, I think, much known, except to the very old and traditional. I know some of them think this Pan-Indian Spirituality stuff is just a mish-mash, like Holmes says, and I have family who feel like it's a rip-off, and others that see it as some kind of balance, that some of the old ways can go forward even if it's in a homoginized packaged way. Me, I don't have much blood in me, mostly white with a little Navajo, a little Cherokee. Not enough to make any kind of deal out of. But my husband was full blooded, and it is mostly his family who I call my 'kin'. His close kin are not reservation people, and mostly like the 'Indian Style" stuff on the market. I have a brother-in-law who makes his living on the Pow-Wow trail, selling stuff. He personaly thinks tarot is silly, but not offensive. So I don't have much to say, except that I still don't think there is a yes or no answer--for ALL Native Americans--for If Tarot is Offensive. It's going to be just like in any other group, offensive to some, not offensive to others. Maybe mingbop could define the question more?

skytwig	15 Apr 2003
Does the Mayan Oracle count?

Alex	15 Apr 2003
can be reduced to three words, or names: Homo sapiens sapiens. Genus: Homo Species: sapiens Subspecies: sapiens Animals belonging in that species range from fully conservative to fully liberal in their views. Humans are humans, no matter tribe, society or civilization. Capable of wonderfull creations but for most part full with bulls@it. We are all ... you know, just humans. Alex.

mingbop	16 Apr 2003
the reason i asked...which I should have said in the first place...!we talk to a navajo medicine man..a friend of friend ...he sees visions for me, and I read the cards for him...and he seems to be very much against witchcraft. I eventually worked up the nerve to ask & he said he has no objection to anything as long as it isnt used to harm...so that seems to be ok. thank you all for that.

skytwig	16 Apr 2003
Societal 'prejudice' runs deep. Maybe this is an opportunity for him to learn where he is narrow. Good going for asking, the door has been opened!

magpie9	16 Apr 2003
I don't know much, but i do know this much. I pm'd mingbop with this, but the thing is that there is no Navajo word for witch that is not bad, evil, without ethics. 'Good witch' is not a concept that exists in the language or culture. He's not being narrow, he's being traditional Navajo. If he thought mingbop was a witch, migbop would never have met him, let alone traded with him. Traditional Navajo's will not speak the name of a known or suspected witch, in order not to attract his attention. Witches are rarely spoken of in words, at all. They are greatly feared, for good reason.

Kyrielle	16 Apr 2003
I bumped up a thread in Tarot Decks about Star That Never Walks Around, which contains an interesting discussion among us about Native Americans' opinions of people appropriating traditional beliefs for tarot/oracle and modern core shamanism purposes. -- Kyrielle

Alex	17 Apr 2003
to be a witch for a traditional Navajo? witchcraft is an european tradition, isn't it? Sorry for the complete ignorance here. If so, this tradition to avoid witches would be... pretty recent? Alex. Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 I pm'd mingbop with this, but the thing is that there is no Navajo word for witch that is not bad, evil, without ethics. 'Good witch' is not a concept that exists in the language or culture. He's not being narrow, he's being traditional Navajo.

mingbop	17 Apr 2003
no alex..the navajo have a traditonal hatred of witches..very very strong. they call them skinwalkers and dont talk about it.

magpie9	17 Apr 2003
QUOTE: "witchcraft is an european tradition, isn't it? Sorry for the complete ignorance here. If so, this tradition to avoid witches would be... pretty recent?" Alex. ____________ (Sorry, I don't know how to do quote the standard way) Alex--please don't take this as in any way personal...I know you honestly don't know, and want to know. But you question opens an area that I feel reallllly needs addressing. :) This navajo tradition pre-dates the european invasion. 'witch' is an english work, I don't know the actual Navajo word....skinwalker is another english word word the Navajo people use for witch. It refers to some of the powers they have. They are shapeshifters, and for a traditional culture that ACTUALLY believes in physical shapeshifting in order to do evil, this is the stuff terror is made of. They have no good side, no 'white' magic (no pun intended) no old lady living alone on the edge of town with herbs and a cat and read your palm and make a charm for you to be succesful in your love life, or a little spell to help you do well on your school tests. Nothing at all like that. Nothing beneficial. Nothing harmless. Instead, they are pure remorse-less evil. They can kill by magic. They do what they do for Power, for the pure twisted joy of it, For greed or for gain, or just because they can. Traditional people who believe in them don't talk about them. There are also traditional remedies, protections, etc against them and what they do. There are medicine men/ shamans and healers and singers.There are people who can heal people who have been cursed or made sick by these skinwalkers. I don't know how effective these countermeasures are--or what the 'cure' rate is. Those of us who live in this greater europian-ized american culture forget that this continent had a long long history before white people came here. Many of these tribal traditions and beliefs go back thousands of years. The Historical sense is different than in europe, where the time when the great mother ruled the land and people still followed the herds and then some people did some agriculture, and stayed in one place, was a thousand years ago or more. Here, those ways of living have only been gone for how long? In some parts of the USA less than 100 years. Why would the Traditional Navajo people have an european overview of witches as good or even nuetral? It's not their experience or tradition. I don't know if other tribes have this tradition about witches....its another thing we forget, living in this homoginized USA, each tribal culture was, and is, singular. We see the historic culture of europe as being singular (dutch, english, german, french, polish, irish, etc) not all with the same set of beliefs and ways of doing things. Why don't we see and respect that the Indian Nations are Nations, not neighborhood marching bands? Sorry. I got a little hot there..but really, people, we could do better on this, as an overall culture. Like i said in an earlier post, I have little Indian blood, and while you can see it strongly in my mothers face, I look like just another white woman. Most of my life this has probably made my life easier. And i do not indentify myself as Indian, except in part of my heart. I'm sorry to say that my mother is ashamed of her Indian blood, even to the point of making up a mytical asian ancestor to explain away her Navajo face. (sea-faring celt meets chinease princess...)(really) :rolleyes: I don't know if I'm off-topic or on, at this point. But i think it matters that we understand that Indians and Indian spiritualuity are not one great Ethnic Lump, and thier traditional beliefs do not neccessarily have any connection with european concepts. This european/american Cultural stuff is SOOOO New Here. It may be dominant, but it's still the new kid in town for traditional Navajos. And a lot of other traditional Indian People, too. O.K. Now somebody else please say something!! I'm off the soapbox, really. =ll:-) .

HOLMES	17 Apr 2003
the medicine person who uses the teachings for his own ways and ends and desires, not for the good of the people but for the good of himself. this becomes a battle of power and is rarely talked about in our area. then again our area is native tradition vs christinity on many levels. the ideal of traditional navaho does not refer to his blood line, in the sense he is full blooded. but follows the traditional ways of his navaho people. this usally details spiritual ways as well.

DarkElectric	17 Apr 2003
I can understand the cultural diference between the euro/american concept of 'witch'(usually Wicca, or other neo pagan person) and what a witch means to a diferent culture. In Latino culture there is also a stigma attached to the concept of witchcraft. It is NOT the beneficial magic, which is preformed by the Santeros and Babalaos, but is malevolent in nature, and practiced by people who use it for evil purposes. To a Latino, there's a BIG difference between a Santera, and a "Bruja". I've never been accused of being 'bruja' for reading cards, but when some nice old men from the United Way came in my house last fall to caulk my windows (part of a community energy saving project), they were surprised, and horrified to see my altars. They got really scared, and wouldn't even accept water from me when I offered them a drink. I simply couldn't explain the difference between modern Wicca, and bruja. They were nervous the whole time they were there, and I felt bad.

Alex	17 Apr 2003
I know absolutely NOTHING about witchcraft and similar subjects. Thanks for the explanation Alex. Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 Alex--please don't take this as in any way personal...I know you honestly don't know, and want to know. But you question opens an area that I feel reallllly needs addressing. :)

Alex	17 Apr 2003
Latin America has been colonized by the Spanish and the Portuguese. The "latino" culture most people refer to is actually Hispanic culture. In most parts of Brazil, the word "bruxa" means an ugly woman, usually old, sometimes crazy, but that's as far as it goes. That I know of, "medicine" men and women are called "curandeiros" (cure performers). Persons who perform "spiritual" cures or better saying, these that deal with spirits, are called "mãe/ pai de Santo" (saint mother/father). Sound like "Santeiro/a"a lot, doesn't it? The reference to "saints" (santos) comes from the integration between catholic religious practices, introduced by the Portuguese, with African cults, brought by the slaves. There is a minimal proportion of African religious traditions that incorporate elements of magic or black magic. Their offers to their entities can be found everywhere on crossroads and public plazas. Chicken, liquor, cigarretes etc. Most people respect these things a lot, they fear passing close to them, ask for forgiveness when they come to close etc. I think that's our version of witchcraft and black magic. Who knows? I'm rather ignorant of popular culture and even more ignorant of magic. Trying to learn some about it here, keep coming. Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric In Latino culture there is also a stigma attached to the concept of witchcraft. It is NOT the beneficial magic, which is preformed by the Santeros and Babalaos, but is malevolent in nature, and practiced by people who use it for evil purposes. To a Latino, there's a BIG difference between a Santera, and a "Bruja".

magpie9	17 Apr 2003
Alex: You Said, And I Quote: QUOTE: "witchcraft is an european tradition, isn't it? Sorry for the complete ignorance here. If so, this tradition to avoid witches would be... pretty recent?" Alex. Your post is confusing to me. __ You said you were "COMPLETELY IGNORANT" and since we were talking about Navajo and other Indian views about witches, I took that to mean you were referring to what we were talking about, not the whole huge subject of witchcraft, euro or world wide. I took it as a request for more information from anyone who did not feel "completely Ignorant" on the subject. So I replied. I put that heading to you because i didn't want to offend you in some way, or imply that you were 'ignorant' about anything but the one specific thing you professed ignorance about. If I have offended you in some way by doing so, please address that issue directly with me.

Alex	18 Apr 2003
offended me in any way. I do not even understand why you think you might have. I can't see any reason why I would feel offended when someone offers me an answer for a question I have asked. I am really ignorant of the whole subject. Is it a problem that I say it? Magpie9, you will end up creating a misunderstanding between us, if you keep trying NOT to offend me. If you write your posts the way you want to write them, I will read them the best way I can, and assume no offense, when no offfense was meant. If nonethless I choose to feel offended, it will be my own loss ... and there will be nothing you can do about it. I hope you don't think I am mad or anything. I was JUST trying to keep that conversation going and say a bit of what I know and hear what others have to say. Just that. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by magpie9 If I have offended you in some way by doing so, please address that issue directly with me.

Alissa	18 Apr 2003
mingbop, I asked my stepfather, a full blooded Native American of the Pima, Maricopa and Modoc tribes, this question for you when I saw him yesterday. His response was basically that animal spirits and other types of "natural" Spirit phenomena is what his people would understand and most easily accept. Tarot, being an "unnatural" set of cards, would be difficult for many Natives to really accept as a way to communicate with Spirit. While many might not believe in it, he said, many would probably not be *offended* by it either. His own Tarot knowledge is just what the average person might know, he doesn't read cards himself. And, he is an open minded person, and has travelled a lot so he as a lot of world-experience that a person who had spent most of their life on or near the reservation might not. That would also likely influence how a Native might feel about Tarot. I hope his input may be of help for you as well.

magpie9	18 Apr 2003
"I am really ignorant of the whole subject. Is it a problem that I say it?" -----------quote from Alex- If saying you are ignorant of a subject were a problem around here, we would all be in deep trouble---and we wouldn't have these great forums to exchange information and views on !! :D Glad to know I didn't inadvertently offend you. Sometimes it's hard to tell around here, with only written words to read. Nice bit of information, by the way, about the Brazilian view----very interesting and certainly educational for me. :)

mingbop	19 Apr 2003
my friend, the navajo, I THINK regards the tarot as a connection to the spirit world... which is the only way I can reach it. But I wanted to be careful here because of the huge difference in our beliefs. But you have all been hugely helpful and I thank you.

azuremariposa	23 Apr 2003
i wanted to pipe in a little info here... Quote: Originally posted by Alex Latin America has been colonized by the Spanish and the Portuguese. The "latino" culture most people refer to is actually Hispanic culture. In most parts of Brazil, the word "bruxa" means an ugly woman, usually old, sometimes crazy, but that's as far as it goes. yes, that's usually as far as that goes...although i've known many Brazilians that referred to witches as "bruxa"...;) Quote: Originally posted by Alex That I know of, "medicine" men and women are called "curandeiros" (cure performers). Persons who perform "spiritual" cures or better saying, these that deal with spirits, are called "mãe/ pai de Santo" (saint mother/father). Sound like "Santeiro/a"a lot, doesn't it? The reference to "saints" (santos) comes from the integration between catholic religious practices, introduced by the Portuguese, with African cults, brought by the slaves. ok, the first part is very true...and it *is* similar to Santeria, but only in the sense that it is an afro-based religion...it's generally referred to as Macumba & it has 3 main sects/divergences (although there are many more than that in total, most people who practice it belong to one of the main 3...) which include: Candomble, Umbanda & Quimbanda...it came over to Brazil with the african slaves...their owners forbade them from practising it, so they "altered" their gods/spirits to align w/Catholicism & their saints (for instance, Iemanja (Yemaya for the spanish, i believe) is honoured as the Virgin Mary)...the differences Macumba has from Santeria are w/the addition of three entities/spirits...the "cablocos" or native south american spirits, the "preto-velhos" or slave spirits, and "criancas" or children spirits...the differences with each sect are which spirits they choose to connect with and how they use their particular brand of "magic"... Quote: Originally posted by Alex There is a minimal proportion of African religious traditions that incorporate elements of magic or black magic. Their offers to their entities can be found everywhere on crossroads and public plazas. Chicken, liquor, cigarretes etc. Most people respect these things a lot, they fear passing close to them, ask for forgiveness when they come to close etc. I think that's our version of witchcraft and black magic. well, there are more traditions that incorporate magic than those you have mentioned...the offerings at crossroads and public plazas are usually for specific entities (Exu & the Pomba Gira) b/c this is where they "reside", where you can access their energy...there are many that make offerings to Iemanja at the ocean...Oxum at rivers and smaller waterways, etc...some of it could be considered witchcraft...black magic is usually the realm of the people who practice Quimbanda, b/c they only deal w/the negative spirits/forces and do not see anything wrong w/creating spells that harm...however, if you asked a person who practiced Umbanda if they practiced witchcraft, i think you'd get quite a look!! :D they have similar rules to Wicca and believe in karma, so there would be no black magic there... just wanted to give a little more info here, b/c this is something that is a little "close to home" (my grandparents had their own terreira & were mãe & pai de Santo there ;)) so, again, sorry to get OT, but i felt the need to get the info out there...thanks for letting me share... many blessings to all... ~azure

MsIsis	18 May 2003
But I've actually looked into this a little, as while I have very little Native American Blood in me, I'm very fascinated by learning more about them. My first deck of cards are actually Medicine Cards - not that far different from Tarot, except it dwells more on how to better one's self as opposed to telling the future. The Medicine cards were not what was used "back in the day". At that time they were stones with images of animals painted on them, and they were drawn from a bag. Now, of course it is much EASIER to use a simple deck of cards. I think the most common complaint of Native Americans is that we pretend to understand their ways and make things called "Native American Tarot", and they believe we are trying to pass them off as a traditional method of interpretation from that time frame. But that is not the purpose behind them. I think if you make anyone understand the point behind using Native american images is not to say it was used then, but to help you touch on Native American History while at the same time using the tradition of Tarot, that it would bring across something totally different. And, like others have said - some will be offended no matter what. If you try to insinuate the Native American's USED Tarot, then yes, that would be offensive. But if what you are doing is using Their history to better help YOU, that in itself is not offensive, but can also be a way to bring you even closer to that history.

lunalafey	19 May 2003
If the Native American were to take offence to anything it would be being called an 'Indian' also a skinwalker is a (legendary) figure that has the power to go inside a person, inhabit & control thier instincts....sounds more like a demon, not a witch. Belive it or not, but, some NA people find the 'Native American Church' offencive. The 'church' was brought about when their homes where taken away & forced to convert. Peyote was also discoverd just prior to the establishment of the 'church'. The reason, the 'white man's laws'. In order for the NA people to practice thier peyote ceremonies, they needed the protection of the Constitutional right to 'freedom of religion'. There is no word in any of the languages for 'church' or 'religion' Brook Medicine Eagle is a Lakota Medicine woman, she uses the "Native American Tarot" This was my first and only deck for many years. Quote: I think the most common complaint of Native Americans is that we pretend to understand their ways and make things called "Native American Tarot" by MsIsis "we" meaning the 'white people'? first off the NA deck was created by a couple of native decent & had the assistance of a medicine man. Being familiar with the NA way, this deck was the perfect introduction to tarot that I could have found.

MsIsis	19 May 2003
Quote: "we" meaning the 'white people'? first off the NA deck was created by a couple of native decent & had the assistance of a medicine man. Being familiar with the NA way, this deck was the perfect introduction to tarot that I could have found. [/b] [/QUOTE} Sorry, but that was worded wrong, and was never meant to be offensive - Honestly I have no idea who created "native American Tarot", but let me try to clarify - What I was trying to say is that most of the Native Americans I know are more offended by the implication that Tarot is historically Native American. Even Medicine Cards were not as they are now when used by it's Native Culture. Cards is something that (from what little I know) was not Native American at all. Once you get past that, it's rarely a problme. As for the term "Indian"... I've seen just as many offended by the term "Native American".... because both are terms coined by "white men" in different time periods. The true name would of course, be to call them by the tribe name - but not everyone knows which tribe is which, and what that tribe beleived in. In either case here - was attempting to say the real problem which causes offense should NOT be the wording, but how it is used (as I have just proven by offending you) and what the meaning is intended to be. for me and mine - I'm also a Wop, a southern belle, a Chicamauga, a scots, and all those other wonderful names for all those other wonderful cultures I have in my background. :)

Mimers	19 May 2003
Some of my best friends call me 'Porkchop' because I am of Portugeuse decent. This does not offend me because it is not meant to offend me. I know colored people that call each other 'nigger' and laugh about it. I don't understand all this. If someone calls you anything with malace, you can tell. Then you would be offended. But if someone refers to you as something (ex, Native American, African American, Italian American, etc...) and they mean it with the utmost respect, how can that offend? Correct them if you feel it is not appropriate, but why the indignancy? I don't understand sometimes.

lunalafey	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MsIsis [b] [/quote} (as i have just proven by offending you) [/b] In no way shape or form was I offended, I apologize if I came across as such. I must have fallen into that same 'misunderstoodwording' pothole. I only offer my understanding & experience with the issue.

The Indians.. thread was originally posted on 14 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.