is it absolutly certain that the tarot wasn't designed with other systems in mind ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HOLMES	27 Apr 2003
today i was looking on amazon and saw the following, and so i did a reference check to compare kabbalah/qabalah and numerology there was one book and a brunch of kabbalah titles which i guess goes into in greater detail. kabalistic astrology here is the link in greater detail http://www.gotoit.com/titles/kabast.htm cabalah and astrology http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087516577X/qid=1049814306/sr=1-24/ref=sr_1_24/002-4748124-6431232?v=glance&s=books kabbala and numbers http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0766102815/qid=1051403121/sr=1-24/ref=sr_1_24/002-4748124-6431232?v=glance&s=books Numbers & Letters or the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom - 1908 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1564598160/qid=1051403824/sr=1-113/ref=sr_1_113/002-4748124-6431232?v=glance&s=books Numerology and the English Cabalah: Translating Numbers into Words and Words into Numbers http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0878771883/qid=1051398458/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/002-4748124-6431232?v=glance&s=books The Greek Qabalah: Alphabetical Mysticism and Numerology in the Ancient World http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578631106/qid=1051403275/sr=1-43/ref=sr_1_43/002-4748124-6431232?v=glance&s=books new qabbalah like this The Aquarian Qabalah: A Contemporary Initiation into a Secret Tradition http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1842930478/qid=1051434737/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-4748124-6431232 even athur waite we know for sure incorpated kabbalah into his tarot for he wrote two big long books i just found links for doctorine and literature of kabbalah http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1564592790/qid=1051399361/sr=1-44/ref=sr_1_44/002-4748124-6431232?v=glance&s=books Holy Kabbalah http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0806505222/qid=1051434888/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/002-4748124-6431232?v=glance&s=books there is many ways these systems can be combined,, or perhaps they were ? it was commissioned by the nobles at the time when the first tarot was made, but they don't know who ? i know i said it before but it was probaly a learned man who was very much in astrology, kabbalah, greek mythos, egyptian myths, numerology, and how they interact. we dont' know yet, who exactly made it . (suppose there was a group of angels guiding one learned man but told him to keep it a secret?) then again some say it wasn't til the 1700s 1800s it was begun to be read with , for spiritual books to be written for it ? HEY WHAT IF IT WAS A SECRET ORAL TRADITION :o) once one studies all the cross references , it becomes more possible, at least to mine eyes. what about yours ?

jmd	27 Apr 2003
HOLMES, your points are well taken. What was undoubtedly evident at the time of Tarot's (and Kabbalah's re-) emergence were syncretist tendencies in Southern France, northern Italy and Spain during the highly productive proto and early Renaissance of those regions. In that sense, one needs to open our thoughts and investigations to numerous trends and modes of thinking and understanding - including references to Hebrew sources in what was, after all, an environment which placed a very high value on this language of Adam's. Images, likewise, had their antecedents in Egypto-Graeco-Roman iconographic forms... All in all, a situation not quite as straightforward as some historians would like to have us consider the naissance of Tarot....

Laurel	27 Apr 2003
Holmes, I remember when my love affair with the Kabbalah started. Though I had read tarot cards for years, my understanding of the esoteric tarot, of alchemy, of numerology, of astrology, the chakras, jungian psychology and sacred geometry suddenly blossomed and I felt like a door inside myself had unlocked and everything began to make sense especially how concepts all fit together. I became a complete syncretist. But I also got the sense that many of the similarities in the various systems existed because a) the books I was reading were written my scholars (15th century bce to present day) who had received a rich education and had syncretist tendencies themselves and b)some elements of the Mysteries are universal. By now, its pretty impossible to say where one tradition began and another ended and I daresay defeats the purpose :P ~Laurel

divinerguy	27 Apr 2003
Holmes, The question you offer presumes that Tarot was planned as an integrated system. Before a person arrives at a conclusion, they must examine the underlying premises upon which the question is based. If one considers the influences which exist in the mainstream symbols, the images, the card order and a thousand other details, I trhink it begs the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. My belief is that the symbols underlying tarot correspondences are drawn from many cultures, religions and fraternal societies. I believe they find their origins in early history or prehistory. I believe some of the more common symbols were initially accumulated into card games used by italian nobility. Over the past five centuries, the practices were adopted by various proponents, each ascribing their own particular significance to the cards, and modifying them to suit their dogma. As time passed, conventions arose as to card names, suits and attributes. I believe the point, if any, consensus could be claimed was the heyday of the Golden Dawn. However, even in that era, there were profound schisms, which led to basic differences that we see embodied by Paul Foster Case, Aleister Crowley and Arthur Edward Waite. In the end, I believe that tarot has been adopted by these groups, who seek to mold tarot to their particular belief system.

HOLMES	27 Apr 2003
i need to hear that :O) for i was in a blank mode there going this means that , but that means this,, what the .. when i found those links it was a light bulb lighting up in my head. if i can recall the phrase that spock said "if you elimanate the impossible, what reminds however plausible, is possible " (darn i think i messed it up ) let me see what exactly you saying . jmd was saying that there is evident at the time of tarot and kabbalah remergence of synchronization or rather a harmonizing relationship. the tendencies of this nature in southern fance, northern italy and spain during the highly productive earliest prototype and early great revival of art, literature, and learning from 14 century to 17 century . ( dictionary example of renaissance) ah the people at the time in their enviroment had a very high value on the kabblah, and so it was a trend of learned man at the time to include references. so one needs to open up one own thougths to the possiblities (i am happy with the possibilities into we see a reality if actual proof of the definate man who combined the tarot into one is found :O) images had their prior proceedings, in egypto graeco roman picture techique forums. i couldn't find the what the word naissance means , but if i am understanding it right . it is a situation not straightforward as some historians would have consider the soul of tarot . forgive me jmd I have trouble with some of the big words. but if i am understanding you correctly there are some references relating the aspects of the two tarot and kabbalah and more incorpating the astrology. if one looks at the time period and the learning of the times going on. especially with the influence of roman, egypt and graeco (which isn't in my dictionary ) these are things some historians dont' recnogize during the time of the history as there is no concrete fact, ?

HOLMES	27 Apr 2003
i agree with you that there are universal aspects behind these systems of understand , kabbalah, numerology , astrology , can be all related if you go to the source of each civilizaiton and their influences on each other . like greek gods later taking on roman names, jupiter becoming zeus for example. yet it could be that is what we are looking for is what we shall find, and the person who looks for no references for they are indivualized and a complete system on to themselves. yet if we combined them , we who are seeking the syncretist nature of it all can see a much larger picture, especially in histroical influences on each other. it helps to read such books of follow syncretists(what a cool nice big word eheh ) and also those who don't follow that kind of nature so we can answer such criticisms. how cool it was when we believed the tarot came from egypt, and were passed around by gypsie who were came from egypt. now we know this isnt' true we still have a great deal of influence from this dying belief. example of this is the book of toth, which is the toth tarot. the tarot i know is a complete system onto itself much like numerology , astrology , kabbalah is . and my intention is not to systemstize it all in the application aspects but rather the internalized way of understanding of how they relate. (see what happens when big words get used , words i didnt' know i used come , and i am sure i just made up the systemstize word eheh ) at this stage a blurring effect is happening i think and we are no longer seeing seperate systems but an wholistic overall system . yet there will alwasy be those who stay rigid with one system, or old school as we say :O)

HOLMES	27 Apr 2003
ah aye divinerguy i am saying it could of been planned yes,, but i like the image myself of a lone learned man in a tower , being approached by a card making company being asked to make a new card system for nobility to play and to incorpate all you know. the foundations were layed (at least in my image eheh ) of each underlying system, but more of a hey there are 22 paths in the kabbalah lets incorpate that , and why not put this there, and make this suit more specific here. and voila a game that the nobility will like. i wonder if they will know what i put in there , ah well, on to the next job . (they have to find out who idea it was to combine the two , and while most books today most certianly say the playing cards came first. and that the major arcana was just added for noblity. hints are there, and certianly the archtypes that make up the game of life are there. ) ah , the various people who put forward a doctorine, each contributing their insigts to suit their beliefs, would add and sometimes detract from the cards. (can it be akin to the bible and it's changes over history ?) there were profound mutal divisions which lead to the changes of the influences of paul fost case, crowley , athur edward waite, and all their influences upon the tarot in the past hundred years eh .

HOLMES	27 Apr 2003
what are the greatest modern deck influence of our times post 70s when the tarot began to find mainstream the robinwood ? the more modern oso zen ? or was it the toth as it wasn't to the late 70s that it began to find mass publishing ? the real question i wanted to ask is what other systems could be applied to the tarot in today modern age ? old age stuff i didn't mention or study is colour, alchemy sacred geometry sacred math over time. mythos archtypes get developed more religion pagan beliefs in the 70s psychology in the 1900s symbolism the new astrology today age sociology ? econmics ? philosophy (we had a discussion about this in chat a while ago how is philosophy applied to the tarot and it started the tarot description in 25 words or less thread , or rather that was discussed the same day) what else can we apply the tarot that is being studied in a new way,

divinerguy	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES when i found those links it was a light bulb lighting up in my head. if i can recall the phrase that spock said "if you elimanate the impossible, what reminds however plausible, is possible" (darn i think i messed it up ) Spock lifted that phrase from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes. Doyle lifted it from William of Ockham (in Surrey), who stated that plurality should not be presumed without necessity. The literal translation, referred to as "Occam's Razor" (a mispelling of the town's name), refers to the slicing away of untruths and irrelevancies, so that what remains, however improbable, must be true. Those who follow the concept of doctrinal superiority are more closely akin to something called solipsism. A solipsist believes in his or her self and their own ideas, while ignoring everything else. In short, the earth is the center of the universe, and if you disagree, we'll destroy you. Personally, I don't follow the Qabbalah, because I think it tends to do the thinking for you. I'd rather look at the cards and decide what they mean. However, if it's your thing, by all means, enjoy it. Peace,

Cerulean	28 Apr 2003
I have a gentle suggestion. If you want to explore modern tarot and it's relation to various systems, you might want to pick some illustrated tarot books that give some guidance. I tend to go slowly on large, complicated subjects with centuries behind them. Here's a few suggestions on books that give a nice overview of different tarot styles, history, a little on Kabbalah and some good guides to begin: **Tarot and the Journey of the Hero: Hajo Banzhaf. Both Thoth and Rider Waite styles and ancient and world art are pictured in color. It shows flexibility and beauty of modern tarot styles with more emphasis on Thoth and Rider Waite. This Jungian-based idea of comparing archetypes would cover your general questions on 20th century tarots and links to past art images. Also how modern tarot artists and authors might have expanded from the Thoth and Rider Waite. Kabbalah is mentioned, not covered well. ***Rachel Pollack's Illustrated Guide to the Tarot. She really covers many historical and modern decks in a nice way and her discussion of the Kabbalah Tree of Life with the cards is beautifully illustrated. If one book, this is the one I'd recommend. **I think you were getting Mary Greer's Tarot for Yourself at one point: I'd recommend the one with the blue cover and you'll not only get a nice backup to Rachel Pollack's history, you'll be able to apply the understanding to reading...Mary Greer recommends using scenic pips as well as majors, though, just fyi. Now if you want to be pleasantly surprised, as I was, there's two color books out with Marseilles style decks that assist those who want to use non illustrated pips in readings and some tarot introductory concepts...I actually don't think they are deeply useful as the above two texts, but they please me--they show that people can actually stretch themselves a bit and use more traditional antique decks in reading today: *Tarot Decoder by Kathleen McCormack uses the Grimaud (?) Marseilles style deck to illustrate similar introduction-style concepts. I have it because I love Marseilles style decks...some of it is actually a bit funny, but actually it does show a few pretty modern decks such as Thoth and Ukiyoe in a casual way, as well, in big and beautiful illustrations. A tree of life spread is mentioned, but Kabbalah is not explained. *An Illustrated Guide to the Tarot by Jonathan Dee uses the Lo Scarabeo Ancient Italian Tarot, known as the Tarot of Serraville, circa 1880. Only general introductory concepts, but that is fine: since many of us find the leap to non illustrated pips a switch, this is a good beginning. This might be better for your books thread...but I thought the suggestions might be interesting to browse when you are in bookstores.

HOLMES	28 Apr 2003
hm perhaps i should focus on what is untrue about the tarot ?and then after that try to find out what is true ? (my limited resources and skills for such a task to actually go find what is untrue is laughable i can't read the history texts in their language and such) in a way a solipsist isn't that we all do to a certain extent without actaully falling through with the we'll destroy you , but we make the conscious effort to ignore everything else if it doens't agree with our world at the time ? i guess that is certainly true of tarot , we all got our individual beliefs , our way of reading, which we are trying to better, but in the end will resort to ignoring what others have done for we must remain true to ourselves. kind of like the musican who starts to applying what he knows for he has his style, that being the case, on that basis they keep learning, be it songs, the improving, example of that would be bb king learning to incorpate jazz fingerings into his blues to extend and expand his playing. aye i myself like to have a rich basis for which to work from when i decided to interpat the card to the situation. i wasn't just refering to kabbalah though that was the basis for my posts, in links and the major arcana in this thread. but also astrology, and numerology and other examples corresponding with each other. *looks to the people and waits for possible ideas on what to apply further to the tarot * *for we are now evolving the tarot :O)*

HudsonGray	28 Apr 2003
"but i like the image myself of a lone learned man in a tower , being approached by a card making company being asked to make a new card system for nobility to play and to incorpate all you know." That's what's sort of confusing. When you look at it, the tarot originated as something for the nobility, yet the Kabballah is Jewish. In the time of the Middle Ages only the merchant class were heavily Jewish in Europe. Jewish merchants were not at the level of nobility though they were acquiring a lot of money for the times & the nobility ended up trying to suck them dry because of it. As a merchant class, I can't see the Jewish people paying to have a tarot designed for them & then having them printed up with woodcuts. The nobility in the 1500's and 1600's were distanced from the merchant class & actively looking to pull down that segment of their population, especially on the western coast and in the UK, because of the money filtering through it & not their own hands. There was an even wider gulf between them and the peasant classes. Having the nobility want a game that incorporates the Kabballah doesn't make much sense. If the tarot was designed by the Romney (sp), yes there are some Egyptian influences, but most would actually be Indian influences since that's where the wandering Romney originated, and they don't use the Kabballah over there either. I figured it was mostly added in as influence in the 1800's once decks were starting to be printed up for the masses.

HOLMES	28 Apr 2003
the nobility paid to have the deck created but they wouldn't go to another noble, they would of went to the merchant class, and craftsman. my statment wasnt' that the jewish people paid to have a deck made up .. but their influences were in the person who made the deck who said , aw hell give these cards 22 numbers. it would mess up people minds lol :O) but seriously the noblity would of paid a lower chaste but highly respected class like merchant who would of paid a craftsman to make it.

ihcoyc	28 Apr 2003
The question is --- are the painted cards prior to the printed ones, or do we just have older examples because they were expensive and the originals were cheap? I can imagine a conversation something like --- -- Hey, Aldo! I've just seen this new card game, where they add some numbered cards to make a permanent set of trumps. It adds some strategy since you have these that you don't have to just throw away something when you can't follow suit. --- We should make something like that. What do you put on the new cards? -- They just had some numbers. --- We should put something better on ours. But what? -- Remember all of those woodcuts we made for that book that crazy priest had written? The one who they burnt at the stake before he could pay us? --- They would work. How will we use them, though? -- Just put them in kind of in the same order he was using. --- I never understood that part. -- Well, it isn't important. Just so you can tell the designs apart. . --- This is a scary one! I'll make it unlucky XIII. . . .

HOLMES	29 Apr 2003
that was a cool thought ihyoc *walks away with a smile on the face * *comes back and thinks i was thinking something like that eheh *

Alex	09 May 2003
HOLMES I admire your energy to think_and read_ about these things. Oral sacred traditions are peculiar. Some are passed from "the first male child" to "the second male child" second generation and then back to the "first male child" and as soon as a first male child fails to be born, the tradition dies within that family. How many oral traditions have been lost, and continue to be lost nowadays... Alex.

The is it absolutly certain that the tarot wasn't designed with other systems in mind ? thread was originally posted on 27 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.