Strength or Justice--why VII?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HudsonGray	16 Apr 2003
Just how important is it to have Strength at VIII and Justice at XI, and why this way & not reversed? Does it really make enough difference to you that you'd not buy a deck because of the numbering? I'm curious because at this point I'm not sure which to number mine in the deck I'm doing & if doing it one way is going to tick off too many people, I'll do it the way everyone prefers. I was going to go the route Rider Waite took. But since these two cards get a lot of arguing over, I thought I'd ask first before finishing the final clean up/scanning.

felicityk	16 Apr 2003
I prefer the traditional order (Justice VIII and Strength XI), as I don't really understand Waite's justification for switching them. It's not enough to stop me from buying a deck, though it's more of an issue with some decks than others. For example, it annoys me that the Old English Tarot, which otherwise seems to be based on the Marseilles as far as the Majors go, has Strength at VIII and Justice at XI. For decks which are closely based on the Waite-Smith, though, it makes sense to follow Waite's example. Felicity

Khatruman	16 Apr 2003
Since Waite is responsible for the switch from the traditional Justice at VIII and Strength at XI, then to put Strength at VIII and Justice at XI will put you more in the Waite camp, or at least probably have prospective buyers draw that conclusion. Most of the tarot material I have been reading that discusses the fool's journey comfortably put it in the Waite sequence, so I think it is generally more accepted by the moderate tarot reader to have them this way. I just read in Pollack's Forest of Souls where she discusses this debate, and she makes justifications for either methods, and actually seems to side with Waite's sequence since it places Justice, whose most basic symbol is the scales, right in the middle, which makes sense at spot XI, thus the Justice card becomes the true balance card of the Major Arcana. However, she does note that it is an arbitrary choice. So, I guess it really is up to you, but you should note the implications either way has for the more serious tarotists.

ihcoyc	16 Apr 2003
My understanding has ever been that Waite moved Strength to VIII because the Golden Dawn system assigns the cards to Zodiac signs, beginning with Aries for the Emperor at IIII. Switching the two cards gives Strength at VIII to Leo, and swapping in Justice at XI gives it to Libra, which does make a sort of sense at first. The problem is, the Golden Dawn system starts breaking at X, Wheel of Fortune, which it far less satisfactorily gives to Jupiter. The planets are shotgunned through the Majors seemingly arbitrarily; the Moon ain't the Moon, it's Pisces, and the Papess is the Moon. If Jupiter is in the Majors, he'd be the Pope by my way of thinking, but the Golden Dawn inexplicably gives the Pope to Taurus. They at least manage to keep the Sun as the Sun, which is one small step for common sense. If they were really serious about this stuff, I think they'd be better served by a Minchiate deck. Of course, Golden Dawn symbolism is more or less built in to both the Waite deck and the Crowley deck.

HudsonGray	16 Apr 2003
So the Waite sequence would be the more well known one for the larger group of tarot users.....hmm. I should probably stick to that then. I'm basing the meaning son the Rider Waite style, for the most part, so keeping that sequence would ruffle fewer feathers. Thanks!

truthsayer	16 Apr 2003
i felt that this thread belonged more in talking tarot than the tarot decks section. i hope it doesn't bother you that i moved it. i'm getting ready to leave for easter holidays and trying to do a little last minute tidying up so pollux won't have so much on him while i'm gone. interesting topic!

Thirteen	16 Apr 2003
The main question--does it matter?--can be answered, I think, thus: Unless you're very into numberology, or very much aware of the Majors connecting to the minors (you get a bunch of 8's in the Minors, and also Strength--is Strength is 8 or 11, because it's either another relevant 8 or it's not, right?), then NO, the number doesn't matter, at least in regards to readings. Most readers, I've found, don't pay a whole lot of attention to the number on the Majors. In fact, originally, the Majors had no numbers. On the other hand, if you're into Qabala, it makes a bit of a difference in climbing the tree. Where is the path of Strength, where is the path of Justice? Different places if you change the numbers. And this will make a difference. Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc The problem is, the Golden Dawn system starts breaking at X, Wheel of Fortune, which it far less satisfactorily gives to Jupiter. The planets are shotgunned through the Majors seemingly arbitrarily; the Moon ain't the Moon, it's Pisces, and the Papess is the Moon. If Jupiter is in the Majors, he'd be the Pope by my way of thinking I don't entirely agree that these are so very wrong. The Wheel relates to luck, wealth and success--and that's what Jupiter is all about. Yes, it's also a planet of religion--but it seems far too active to me, too expansive, to be the Pope, so still and serious on his throne. If the Pope were an active missionary, I'd agree that he ought to be Jupiter. Taurus, on the other hand, the sign of folk who like to sit on comfortable thrones in beautiful cathedrals, could be argued to suit our Pope--especially given that Taurus has to do with stewardship. The moon is a bit more dicey--but as the CARD is all about illusions and dreaming, it really does suit Pisces far better than the "planet," which is all about instinct, the unconscious and the feminine, all very much represented by the Papess. I would say, also by the way, that Waite altered the order not only to fit the order of Zodiac assignments (which, interestingly, Crowely did not do with his deck, though he was also a Golden Dawn member and has the same assignments of signs and planets), but because, I *think* he felt the 11 was more emblematic of balanced scales (1 & 1--one being a power number, also adding up to 2--the number for balance) than 8--which turned on its side is the infinity symbol and floats over the head of our girl with the lion. I've no proof of this by the way--just a guess on my part.

Rusty Neon	17 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray So the Waite sequence would be the more well known one for the larger group of tarot users.....hmm. I should probably stick to that then. I'm basing the meaning son the Rider Waite style, for the most part, so keeping that sequence would ruffle fewer feathers. Thanks! Well ... there are at least 2 ways of skirting around the Justice/Strength numbering issue: (1) have unnumbered Major Arcana cards; or (2) include two extra cards, so that there is a choice of two Justice cards and two Strength cards.

felicityk	17 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I would say, also by the way, that Waite altered the order not only to fit the order of Zodiac assignments (which, interestingly, Crowely did not do with his deck, though he was also a Golden Dawn member and has the same assignments of signs and planets), but because, I *think* he felt the 11 was more emblematic of balanced scales (1 & 1--one being a power number, also adding up to 2--the number for balance) than 8--which turned on its side is the infinity symbol and floats over the head of our girl with the lion. I've no proof of this by the way--just a guess on my part. From what I've read it also has something to do with the assignment of Hebrew letters. Levi, Papus, et. al. assigned the first letter, Aleph, to the Magician, and gave the Fool the penultimate letter, Shin, placing it between Judgement and the World. Waite placed the Fool at the beginning of the sequence with Aleph, so all the other Majors are shifted forward one letter except for the World. In addition, he felt that Strength and Justice should be switched to better fit the alphabetic sequence, though if the meanings are flexible enough that one can shift the whole alphabet I don't see how this would be such a big deal. Maybe someone else can elaborate? Felicity

ihcoyc	17 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I don't entirely agree that these are so very wrong. The Wheel relates to luck, wealth and success--and that's what Jupiter is all about. Yes, it's also a planet of religion--but it seems far too active to me, too expansive, to be the Pope, so still and serious on his throne. If the Pope were an active missionary, I'd agree that he ought to be Jupiter. If you learned on the Swiss 1JJ deck like I did, the Pope would indeed be Jupiter; the Pope is Jupiter, literally, on that deck; the Papess is Juno. I guess my point is that the Tarot and the zodiac aren't an exact match, and any attempt to directly map one against the other is going to end up giving you some rough fits.

galadrial	17 Apr 2003
It doesn't make a difference to me when I do readings, but when I study the cards by laying them in rows of 7, starting with the Magician (each card directly below in the following rows being a higher harmonic, or octave of the card above), I get better associations from Strength being 8, and thus between the Magician and the Devil, and Justice being 11, and thus between the Emperor and the Moon, than vice versa. However, that doesn't keep me from buying a deck that numbers them otherwise.

jmd	17 Apr 2003
Part of the situation seems that once one begins to work with either numbering, justifications may indeed be found. There is no doubt that Waite's inversal of the numbering of Justice and Strength from its accepted tradition of, respectively, VIII and XI, was due to Golden Dawn Qabalistic Hebrew letter considerations and its associated (Golden Dawn version) of their Astrological correspondences. That Crowley does not follow Waite (despite his membership to the GD - though traditional GD may not agree on the full legitimacy of his initiation due to the way it occured - in Paris, by the already marginalised Mathers) is given in his own book: he sought to re-establish the mediaeval sanctity of the cards. A number of relevant other points need to also here be made. Firstly, the Hebrew letter associations on the Continent of Europe do not agree with the British GD ones: There, Alef (meaning also 'one') is associated with the Magician (card I), and the letters continue their associations along the sequence, save that the un-numbered card (the Fool) is placed penultimately, and thus allocated Shin (as already mentioned by felicityk). With the GD moving the Fool to head the sequence, and allocating Alef to it, different allocations result. Two peculiar consequences result, however. The first is that the double letters (Kabbalistically connected to the seven traditional planets - which include, incidentally, the Sun and the Moon) do not flow in a pattern which seem to make sense with the cards - and so the GD totally re-alters these allocations (which, it must be pointed out, have in any case multiple allocations in various versions of the Sefer Yetzirah). The second is that the twelve signs of the zodiac can appear to fit the cards in this new order in their traditional allocations to the newly attributed Hebrew letters - all except Leo and Libra, which appear transposed. Hence the GD flip of these two cards. Crowley, it should be noted, accepts this letter and astrological transposition, but does not thereby also concurrently re-number the traditional and meaningful numeration of the cards. Also, he finds that the Star and the Emperor also are better 'fitted' with a similar transposition - a transposition, it should also be noted, which balances the whole sequence and its attributions. And so here we have the various most common 'systems': 1 - the traditional sequence as exemplified by the Marseille deck (but please also read threads in the Tarot History and Iconography, for even it had variations), having no obvious Hebrew letter attributions (though Mark Filipas may have uncovered legitimate historical ones); 2 - the continental tradition of placing the Fool as penultimate card, and allocating, in sequence from the Magician, the Hebrew letters and their respective Kabbalistic astrological and elemental attributions; 3 - the Golden Dawn's variations, as especially exemplified with the (Rider-)Waite/Colman-Smith deck, which transposes VIII and XI; 4 - The 'Thoth' deck of Crowley/Harris, which resumes the deck's traditional numbering, but includes symbolism from a double switch: VIII/XI and IIII/XVI. There are, in addition, other modifications... but these are not either as well known, nor generally accepted. Personally, I prefer, by far, the Marseille ordering.... having numerous books which copy either each other or the Waite pattern does not make it, in my view, any the more significant. Investigations towards understanding and penetrating the depths of the cards is ultimately more significant. But let me finish with a quote from Coomaraswamy: Symbol ia a language and a precise form of thought: a hieratic and a metaphysical language and not a language determined by somatic or psychological categories. Its foundation is in analogical correspondences ... Investigating the very precision which each of these variations offer is, in my opinion, central to investigating Tarot and its pointings...

felicityk	17 Apr 2003
Thank you for the very informative post, jmd. It would be interesting to see a table that gives the Hebrew and planetary/zodiac associations for each card within each system (i.e. Continental, GD/Waite, and Crowley). Does such a thing exist, either online or in a book? Felicity

Rusty Neon	17 Apr 2003
If you check around, I'm sure somewhere in cyberspace there must be a comparative table. As for tables in books, there is one at the back of Oswald Wirth's book (which has been translated into English from French) which summarizes astrology correspondences for the major arcana according to 12 different authors (which includes Crowley but not the Golden Dawn :)).

felicityk	18 Apr 2003
Thanks, Rusty. I actually found a table in the Encyclopedia of Tarot Vol. 1 that appears to be based on Wirth's table. It had several names I did not recognize, though, and as you said, nothing explicitly labeled as Golden Dawn. Felicity

The Strength or Justice--why VII? thread was originally posted on 16 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.