The Devil's Picture Book

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

wolfen045	06 Apr 2003
When tarot came up in a couple of different contexts for me recently, I mentioned that I collected decks and did readings. Most ppl were nuetral or curious but several ppl accused me of being a Satanist or at least his dupe. I tried explaning that there are Christian tarot readers and Christian based decks out there, But was told: the Devil can quote the scriptures! I myself am a Wiccan, (which I did not bother telling most of these ppl as the already saw me as "evil") but I would be interested in hearing how ppl of other religions and traditions handle this accusation. I could make this longer but it would end up being ... well, a rant ,so i am gonna leave it as is. Blessings,wolfen

Astraea	06 Apr 2003
Wolfen, in my experience, people who believe such things are so heavily invested in a fundamentalist "party line" that it is impossible for them to hear the voice of reason. Remember reading about the book entitled "The Witches' Hammer," that was authored by church "authorities" and used during the Inquisition and witch trials as a guidebook for the detection of witches? Alas, the mindset of many people has not changed much in the intervening years. There is a world of difference between Christianity as a belief system founded on love as inclusiveness, and Churchianity -- a potentially dangerous skewing of facts to fit preconceived ideas. I simply don't bring up subjects like tarot and astrology around Churchians.

cricket	06 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astraea There is a world of difference between Christianity as a belief system founded on love as inclusiveness, and Churchianity -- a potentially dangerous skewing of facts to fit preconceived ideas. I simply don't bring up subjects like tarot and astrology around Churchians. Churchianity - I like that! Can I 'borrow' that one? Wolfen - Astraea is absolutely correct. Many of the Christians that are steady churchgoers (or Churchians) have twisted a viable religion into something more resembling a nasty cult of sorts than anything else. These people are very capable of doing some very ugly things. Trust me. One thing that I've personally done in the past is to laugh at whoever's trying to sell that sort of bunk. They usually either start calling down the Lord's fury on you or start to wonder what's so funny. Either way, they eventually give up. The people calling on the power of the Lord usually end up getting frustrated and going on their way. The second kind of people will either get frustrated or start an actual conversation. If they start a conversation they might actually listen to your arguements. Then again, they might not, and you'd be back at square one with nothing lost but a little time. Another thing you might try is to simply tell them that even though they believe the Devil exists, you don't. This could either bring up another arguement or will send them into shock. Again, all that would be wasted is a little time.

HudsonGray	06 Apr 2003
Yes, if you take the position that it doesn't matter then you can stop most of the trouble. It's when you argue or try to convince a closed mind that you get problems. Instead of letting them tell you it's evil & satanic, just think instead that they're trying to tell you the color of your socks is evil--by shifting the focus your subconscious mind won't be taking in this negativity. It's stupid to think your socks can be evil, why would a pack of brightly dyed images on card stock be? Don't let your subconscious get the guilt trips shoved in. You already know it's not something to worry about. No reason to take on the guilt trips of others who don't even look into how something like tarot works. (I put it this way because while the others are suggesting how to get around the people and their arguments, I'm thinking that constant negative bombardment will be going into your own subconscious about it & that needs to be countered too).

Burnt Kisses	06 Apr 2003
I have a very large family and they for the most part are very catholic. So when they found out my mother had bought me a deck so I could star reading, they said " you're to young to be sending your sole to the devil with those cards. Your going to go to hell for what you're doing." That was 2 years ago, then 6 months ago I went to a priest to tell him my sins (I had thought tarot was wrong because of what my family had said) and I told him about the cards. He laughed and said " tarot cards are not evil, they are away of leaning about ones self, and God wants us to learn about are self so we can learn what we are good at so we may help others." he told me to keep reading them if I wanted, and ignore my family on this matter.

firemaiden	06 Apr 2003
Burnt Kisses, what a wonderful priest, what wonderful story. Thank you for telling us this, it is really quite uplifting!! Can we quote this guy?

Burnt Kisses	06 Apr 2003
of course u can quote him, he will love it when i tell him someone wants to quote him. He is a young priest, and is really open to stuff. One of my fav. ppl to talk to.

Richard	06 Apr 2003
It's funny...my old grilfriend had a bad reaction to my cards a while ago and was trying to get me to get of them. I had never heard anything bad about Tarot before, so I did a search, trying to find Tarot horror stories. needless to say, I found none. Well, none that weren't connected to ouija boards as well... Interestingly, I found a fundamentalist website that had a section on cartomancy, but it said absolutely nothing about the Tarot, just about playing cards (saying the King is the king of lies, the Queen is a vicious parody of Mary...where do they GET this stuff?). I also found a VERY interesting Christian defense of Tarot, but I can't remember what the website was.

wolfen045	06 Apr 2003
I feel better for having read all your replies. they really helped. I also did a Google search on the Topic of tarot and Christianity. the following site looks good although I have only skimmed it so far: http://www.sevenrays.com/articles/?0010&eBook=001 Blessins and Joy to all ,wolfen

Inana	07 Apr 2003
I know it has not much to do with what you are taking about. But sometimes im surprised about what im reading in this forum because i get the impression that there are a lot of closeminded fundamentalist religious people out there, and i dont see this here. Is really that way? Has the religion that importance in the way people see things where do you live, or is just the people you have around? Here the most usual someone say when knowing i use tarot is that is an "stupid thing". Of course, they are viewing it from an skeptical point of view, but not a fundamentalist religious one. They dont think its evil, they think its an useless thing for ignorant and naive people... Well, its another way to criticize it. What im trying to say here is that Church has less importance in everyday life and is not controlling people minds, at least for most people it means nothing. And no ofense pretended here. Im talking about that kind of persons of closed beliefs that doesnt accept nothing because of what church is suposed to say about it. And im surprised to read there are still a lot of those diplodocus over there. Mmmmh... well, just a thought. Anyways, theres no point in discussing with someone that sees tarot like a devil manifestation, its like when someone thinks rock or heavy metal is a devil manifestation... Its a closed aproach and you cant convince them of nothing. Neither them to you.

Kiama	07 Apr 2003
I have many fundamentalist Christian friends, most my age, give or take a few years (16-20) and we have given up discussing Tarot with each other. The conversation usually goes something like this: (Ahem) Me: "Tarot cards are a way of helping othes, understanding ourselves, and getting closer to the Divine." Friend: "That is what Satan wants you to believe so you will continue giving your soul to him through using the cards." Me: "No its not." Friend: "Yes it is." Me: "Tisn't" Friend: "Tis"..... So, out of respect for our friendship, we don't talk about it anymore. If I am doing readings whilst they are there (Usually I do readings in pubs in a large group of mixed friends) they ignore it. If, however, a stranger told me that I was 'in league with Satan', my usual response would be, 'I am sorry you think that. I shall pray for you tonight.' It annoys them, but they can't say anything, after all, they're always praying for me! }) I used to debate with them and say 'I don't believe in Satan', but they'd say 'That's what Satan wants you to believe'. Everything I would say to them would be repsonded to with 'Satan is deceiving you' or something to that effect. Now I just walk away after informing them I shall pray for them (I'm Pagan btw), because I have better things to do with my time than bother with people who are gonna stand there and insult me to my face. :D Luckily, we don't get very many really 'hellfire' fundies around here. Most Christians I know will openly discuss Tarot and the occult, and will either respectfully decline to believe that they are good, or will usually say what Burnt Kisses' priest did. I had a friend who was a vicar at my local parish church (The largest and oldest parish church in England! :D) and whilst he was in his 40's, he was very open minded. We would have tea and coffee, and talk philosophy, comparitive religion, spirituality... He was a cool vicar. Kiama

Khatruman	07 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astraea There is a world of difference between Christianity as a belief system founded on love as inclusiveness, and Churchianity -- a potentially dangerous skewing of facts to fit preconceived ideas. I simply don't bring up subjects like tarot and astrology around Churchians. Very good turn of phrase, and it adequately relates why I have chosen to change from wearing a cross to wearing the more ancient fish symbol of Christianity. I would rather divorce myself from the centuries of institutionalization of Jesus' teaching to a point where they have totally turned his objective in many cases. Where Jesus tried to open up spirituality to everyone, many Christians try to exclude, or reign people in. Interesting that phrase, "Satan can quote Scripture." I have found that many who spout Scripture have twisted it to suit their own ends. Peace.

Aerin	08 Apr 2003
The last time that I felt I was really treated as an adult in a church was when I was at university. The sermons were more philosophical lectures, with the vicar arguing both sides of a statement and then saying what he thought. Afterwards, you could have a very good debate. Now, the uni. Christian Union, that was a different matter. A very good friend of mine, a devout Catholic, left because every time she asked a question someone would tell her that she was empty of belief and would go to hell unless she just accepted everything she was told. She took to asking questions just to wind them up, and then decided this was a bit useless and left. Aerin

galadrial	11 Apr 2003
There are a lot of Churchians I know who have a hard time taking personal responsibility for their actions. They go through a period of letting their Fool run rampant, putting them at odds with their externalized Empress and Emperor and creating chaos and directionlessness in their lives. Then they find a Hierophant whose teachings they may or may not really grasp, but they value the externalized control his rules and boundaries offer. They are "saved" from their own recklessness, reconciled to the externalized Empress and Emperor, and feel a sense of peace. Of course, they are really still at a very infantile stage, and their own spirit will whisper that it is time to move on to the Lovers. Time to integrate the Empress and Emperor into their own psyche. Time to question the Hierophant, to individualize and take responsibility for their moral choices. Instead, they stubbornly refuse and choose to hear this as the whisperings of Satan- and they are Very threatened by anyone who has "grown up and left home". So, as long as you are still questioning, learning and growing, you know you are on the Fool's journey and headed toward the World. You just have to ignore those who have jumped off the path and decided on a fixed "truth" ("the elephant is like a rope!").

Gerbear	11 Apr 2003
I usually inform close-minded christians that there is nothing unique about their faith. Every aspect of christianity was predated by pagan sources. The emperor Constantine gave the church legitamacy, in order to have more power. He changed it to closely resemble the religion of Mithras, which he practiced. If they persist, then I get into the facts, recorded by the church regarding the early presbyters. The faith has universal truths, as does any religion, but christianity has degenerated, for the most part, into a means of social control. I don't display any rancor, just cold hard facts, with sources.

Red Emma	11 Apr 2003
What a great discussion this morning! As a rule I skip threads of this sort because I get so frustrated by the Churchians that I'm down for hours. Just one more thing: Oprah Winfrey had a great comment about the Churchian style of religion (which frequently has more to do with hatred* than anything else). "If there's no love there, then God isn't there." Goddess Bless, RE *Hatred of "others" such as gays and lesbians, feminists, other races...It's a long list.

cricket	11 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Red Emma Just one more thing: Oprah Winfrey had a great comment about the Churchian style of religion (which frequently has more to do with hatred* than anything else). "If there's no love there, then God isn't there." I knew Oprah would get into this sooner or later. :) Good quote, and very true. It's just nearly impossible to make the churchians see the truth of it.

wolfen045	11 Apr 2003
I think a great many of the Churchians equate religion with social control. Also imho, many of them react the most strongly toward the things that tempt their control most; if they can't have/do it, then neither should any one else. And often they refuse to see the contradictions in their own points of view. For example, one person who told me how evil tarot is is both a "right to lifer" and totally anti-gun control. She honestly didn't see the disjuncture between the two positions. Scarey...The Blessings of the God/dess upon all, wolfen

The The Devil's Picture Book thread was originally posted on 06 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.