Working on a Winter Tarot- Need Suggestions

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Violet Gargoyle	30 Apr 2003
This is a revisit for some, I am working on a Yule-Tide Tarot. Maybe some fresh faces and perspectives from around the world will help me with some stuck places. Ok, think Winter. I am working on a Tarot based around the winter holidays. I would prefer to use Pagan, Jewish, and Christian folklore, traditional or seasonal stories, and customs. For the below, I would like feedback as well so that I keep proper perspective and I am not "stretching" too far to make the mold fit the card. The color schemes will be similar to this: http://www.aeclectic.net/project/2/10_swords_violetgargoyle.html But barring that and some other experiments, I am still into just the research first. Ok Archtypes that I have so far. Question Marks are ones I am not decided on: The Fool= Scrooge The Magician= Kris Kringle? High Priestess= Ice Maiden (Different than the Snow Queen)? The Empress= The Mother or Mary? The Emporer= Father Christmas? High Priest= St Nicholas, Clara's Uncle, or Joulupukki? The Lovers= Gerda and Kai The Chariot= The Sleigh Justice= The Firebird (Thanks Demonesse!) The Hermit= St Francis or Drosselmeier The Wheel= The Wreath Strength= The Manger or Reindeer? The Hanged One= The Wren (St Stephen) Death= The Match Girl Temperance= The Festival of Lights Devil= The Devil's Mirror (Kyrielle and Demonesse talked me into that over the Mouse King...) The Tower= The Snowman (melting) The Star= of Bethlaham The Moon= The Spiders The Sun= The Son Judgement= ??? The World= Peace on Earth Suits Wands= Mistletoe or Pine Pentacles= Snowflakes Swords= Icicles Cups= Wassail For the Minors= All Knights become Mages, so they are 3 Wise Men and Artaban from VanDyke's "Other Wise Man". There are plans in the minors and courts for Jack Frost, The Holly King, The Oak King, (all Kings) Mrs. Clause, Baba Yaga, the Snow Queen (As Queens), as well as The Nutcracker, The Christmas Tree, The Snow Girl, The Wolf, The Yule Log, and The Gift of the Magi characters. Any suggestions? Feedback? More folklore referances?

jema	30 Apr 2003
great ideas, but i feel lost, this is all very american somehow. perhaps you could take a look at traditions in the european countries too. for example - in sweden we have "småtomtar" or "nissar" that is like a "brownie" rather short fellows that help around the house and in the barn with the animals, they are the ones you put out the porridge to at x-mas:) as for the suit of wands - how about a yule-log? that also has a strong connection to fire. and this may sound weird - but intuitivly i would place mistletoe as swords instead of wands, they are after all famous fro growing in the air. (i think the story about how Baldre for shot with an arrow of mistletoe is because it was the only herb not growing from the ground - so there you have the air theme again - as an arrow) yule is after all a lot older as a celebration then christmas is and some of the elements lives still. have you thought about incorporating the Lucia somewhere? she is the bride of light and could make both a great Queen or Page or even empress since she comes with the returning light and brings gifts of food. and perhaps a bit crazy - but how about the TV-set as a devil;) i find that it is the TV that really "steals away" the whole family during the holidays, how we in sweden even structure our day after the programs shown. we are in true bondage, slaves to the entertainment... just some ideas - i might come up with more later.

baba-prague	30 Apr 2003
It sounds a really nice project. To offer another European perspective you might use Saint Nicolas and the Devil for Justice or Judgement. They appear together on the streets on 7th of December (I think it's the 7th, could be the 8th. I'll check - this was all new to me when I moved here too), usually also with an angel. They talk to children and ask if they have been good. If so, they get a small present (usually sweets). If not, the Devil gives them a piece of coal. It's a lovely tradition. The "angel, Devil, St Nick" teams are usually teenagers or young people in their early twenties. They organised the costumes and the sacks of sweets and just enjoy talking to the kids and handing out the goodies (I've never seen anyone get coal!) By the way, some of the costumes are fabulous. Last year I think I really DID meet the Archangel Gabriel on Charles Bridge. At least he looked every inch the part. Good luck with the work. When can we expect to see some cards? Karen ps - I guess at a pinch you could use it for the Six of Pentacles, but the "good or bad?" judgement wouldn't be quite right for that card.

Violet Gargoyle	30 Apr 2003
Thanks for the feedback, Jema and Baba Prague! Yes, I do seem to stick inadvertantly to the Americanized versions. This is a concern to me because I know there is so much more out there, and I want to make proper use of it, plus- dagnabit I am a folklorist and should know more. I would love more Jewish folklore to use as well. Pagan isn't so hard, but its amazing how many crossovers you can have (especially with the Mother and Son referances). I am planning to use Freya and Lucia somewhere (perhaps as pages- The only one I have for sure is Clara, and I still got the Queen of Cups open so Lucia might fit nice there) I will keep the St Nicholas and the Devil in mind for Judgement. I am reallly stuck there. The pips are far from decided card by card. I have some distinctive ideas for a few of them (A mortal Jack Frost and his love for the 10 of Wassail, for instance). My mental mindstream is that the lovers and the devil have to be closly connected, which is why I came upon Kai and Gerda for the Lovers, and the Mirror (both from the Snow Queen) for the Devil. I figured my choices there was that or Clara and the Nutcracker for the Lovers and the Mouse King for the Devil. Thank you for the input!

galadrial	30 Apr 2003
I'm afraid I don't understand your use of Scrooge for the Fool. I think he would make a great Judgement figure, though, since his former personality essentially dies (he even sees his name on a tombstone!) and is reborn to a higher calling (focused on his fellow man and not just money).

skytwig	30 Apr 2003
Hi. I'm a newbie, so this is a first see for me. GREAT idea!!! I've been chasing "Christmas" all my life, been cinderella finding her royalty! I agree with galdril, do not see Scrooge as the fool. He seems like the devil somehow, with all his ghosty 'stuff', baggage bedeviling him!!! How about Tiny Tim as the Fool? He even has a cane! And Judgement... Santa's 'factory' and elves... and brownies! (Karma stuff?) Grandmother Clause in there somewhere? Queen of Cups? And the Snow Queen, Queen of Swords. And what about Narnia, land of snow?

jema	30 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by galadrial I'm afraid I don't understand your use of Scrooge for the Fool. I think he would make a great Judgement figure, though, since his former personality essentially dies (he even sees his name on a tombstone!) and is reborn to a higher calling (focused on his fellow man and not just money). What??? You read my mind! i was just writing this exact post - well, almost but then got distracted and never posted it and came back here to post it and you already wrote it:) oh but i was adding that i sort of could see how Scrooge did indeed take those leaps of faith with the spirits and was gonna mention that he does make that journey... still, spooky! oh and Violet - you have to fit on Lady Holda in there too. she is the one that makes the snow when she shakes her pillows:) (although i like the Edward scissorhands snow-story too)

Cerulean	30 Apr 2003
I like your working idea of working with one seasonal motif. Maybe a working title might be Wintery Tales Tarot. It sounds as if Hans Christian Anderson already is within your majors and minors. Perhaps you can collect ideas for another wintery tales tarot. Tales from the cycle of the White Stag might be good... (I do not know much, but the child's book I used to have was illustrated in deep blue, white, gray and silvery tones. A gorgeous but rather cool palette.) The White Stag on Amazon.com shows some reviews: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140312587/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-0276760-4587079?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews/aeclectic/ Are there wintery lands or seasonal tales from place such as Siberia, Mongolia, Iceland, the Artic, that might figure into your winter motif? Or is mainly English and American with touches of other North European tales? Lots of good ideas seem to be already set in your motifs. Best wishes.

Violet Gargoyle	30 Apr 2003
Scroooged= I saw Ebbie's tale as a journey as well via the characters he meets, a rather haggard choice, I know, but I also toyed with Clara for the fool, and figured that she would be better in a court card. You do have a point about Judgement, the tombstone scene complete slipped me when I was first choosing and thinking. I have many choices for the fool, but none for Judgement so I may re think this out. Lady Holda! That one is great. Probably as a page. I did at one point in time have "The List" (making one, checking it twice) down as Judgement, then as Justice. I dont remember why I dropped it.... Mari_Hoshizaki- I would like to use winter themed tales from around the world, although my knowledge base (as you can tell) seems to keep me in certain areas, but not intentionally. I would like find the perfect blend from anywhere where there is snow and a winter holiday to celebrate it, and I learn best with the folklore. I am willing to change choices in favor of a more multicultural balance. The choices I have right now is sort of "going with what you know" for the moment. I do have a fear that I will put too much a US "twist" on tales from around the world, so I am also trying to see that each card retains its regional origins.

Demonesse	30 Apr 2003
You're welcome VG! I think Ebenezer's journey is actually quite suitable for the Fool, but I wonder about his character type, which may not be traditionally I-am-willing-to-step-off-that-cliff type, if you know what I mean. But he does end up completely transformed, nevertheless. I second Mari's suggestion. It might be difficult to find a winter tale from another culture that is both suitable and relevant, but I'm sure it'll be worth it! I think it would also add depth to your deck instead of being completely Christmas-oriented :)

The Working on a Winter Tarot- Need Suggestions thread was originally posted on 30 Apr 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.