A late (k)night

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Macavity	13 May 2003
Well, died c.1590 anyway. :laugh: Came across this "character" in a nearby small country church recently and... couldn't resist. Seem's vaguely familiar somehow? ;)

skytwig	13 May 2003
Where are the swords? ;)

sagitarian	14 May 2003
smiles...that's freaky!

firemaiden	14 May 2003
Aaaaaaaaaaaah. Macavity, this is TOTALLY FANTASTIC. This picture needs to have a conversation with my Four of Swords -- why not death thread. Quote: Okay, I'm looking at the pictures now, because all my books are roasting on the fire. So here I am looking at this RWS 4 of Swords. One thing bugs me. The guy looks dead. This looks like to me 100% like a sarcaphagus adorned with the typical medieval sculpted likeness of the deceased person inside.

lunalafey	15 May 2003
I have seen this before, or another like it. Who is he? does it say?

truthsayer	15 May 2003
how interesting! it looks like it could belong to the tarot de paris deck. any chance that pamela colman smith could have come across the church and image? i can almost hear her thinking,"hhhhhhmmmmm...you know, i think this guy would be great to use in that stupid deck of cards that waite guy is underpaying me for..."

allibee	15 May 2003
I hate to say this but there are hundreds of these - maybe more - across the England and Europe. It is very traditional for the period. They lurk in Cathederals, private crypts, chapels ... all over the gaff really. They are sort of common in a very quiet way. The most beautiful ones include a figure of a sleeping dog at his masters feet. If I remember correctly, the usual breed was a spaniel. Like I said, it's very traditional for the period. A. www.tarotpeople.com

Major Tom	15 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee I hate to say this but there are hundreds of these - maybe more - across the England and Europe. It is very traditional for the period. Yep. There's hundreds of 'em. I used a photo of the one found in St. Michael's Church, Framlingham for the 4 of Swords in Major Tom's Tarot. This one is painted and has gilt details. You can see it at: http://www.majortom.biz/deck.html ;)

firemaiden	15 May 2003
There are indeed hundreds of these,across Europe. I have seen them in England and in France. However, does this one not have something even more in common with the 4 of swords guy than usual?

allibee	15 May 2003
Sorry Firemaiden ... more in common? What do you mean? They mostly look the same I think ... or the ones I've seen anywho..... Pillow..... At prayer .... Body Armour ... ??? A.

baba-prague	15 May 2003
They are all over this part of central europe too. There are variations of course - sometimes there is a lion at the foot of the figure. Also, of course, there are sometimes women. Our Four of Swords uses figures very like this, but we decided we didn't actually want figures from a tomb (maybe just too much association with Death for the kind of meaning we wanted to get across - but that's only our point of view, there's no right and wrong in this) so we used a very similar wooden door-knocker - yes, we do have medieval door knockers on some houses here, and they are sometimes the real thing, not reproductions - that had a man and a woman. They are just a little more alive looking, they have quite happy expressions in fact, though they are obviously based on these same tomb effigies. http://www.tarotofprague.com/c_swords.html sorry - it's only a teeny thumbnail, so you can't really see the expressions - we will make more cards "clickable" when we can. Anyway, even if these effigies are common, it's still an interesting point to bring up :-)

truthsayer	15 May 2003
back to the point, i was trying to make...so if there are literally hundreds like this one in europe, it's quite likely that pamela colman smith was familiar with the image she used on the 4 of swords.

baba-prague	15 May 2003
Of course. Basically, if she ever went into an old church she would have seen such a statue. I think the problem is that this is so obvious to Europeans that we never think to mention it! It's one of those images we all grow up with and so it doesn't seem remarkable in any way and when we see the Four of Swords we know at once what the reference is. Ah well, cultural differences are interesting aren't they?

truthsayer	15 May 2003
since i've never been to europe, this is a part of tarot culture i've never experienced. i have seen pictures of the tomb art. right term? but i've never made the connection til now. i feel richer to know this. thanks!

Macavity	15 May 2003
On the other hand Eleanor of Aquitaine seems to have mastered the art of book reading... while dead: http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/EofAreturns.html Mind you, my old Grandpa would claim he could read a newspaper with his eyes closed... much to the irritation of my Grandma, if I recall! :laugh: Macavity

baba-prague	15 May 2003
That is a wonderful picture. I've never seen one like it. I think all the tomb effigies I've seen are praying. By the way, I was going to say that I had the same sort of "Gosh, look at this!" reaction when I first came here and saw pictures of Strength everywhere - lots of variations, Hercules with club and lion, Hercules holding open a lion's mouth, woman holding lion's mouth, woman carrying large marble pillar (broken and not broken), woman in armour... Then I realised that of course these different depictions of Strength and Fortitude are all over Europe - people here think they aren't particularly interesting. It's just that you don't see them so often in the UK, where I lived (well, probably everyone will tell me that they are there, but certainly I haven't noticed them so frequently). So I'm learning not to jump up and down every time I see "Strength" in yet another guise. I suppose it's just that we all get used to the symbols and imagery we grow up with. I still like the idea of lying in the tomb reading though!

allibee	15 May 2003
:O)Not that this is a competition, LOL , but I'll double yours Major Tom, hehehe Salisbury Cathedral http://www.trollope.org/old/images/photo4.jpg

SharonElizabeth	22 May 2003
If this image is something people see everyday, I wonder if there are other common images in tarot out there? Just a thought.

allibee	22 May 2003
Good question SharonElizabeth, why not start a new thread on it? A.

baba-prague	22 May 2003
Please do start a thread on this. There are plenty of images that are common (in Europe, can't speak for other places) that are either close or very close to tarot images. The obvious are the many depictions of Justice, Strength and Temperance. Also the image used for The Star - a naked woman pouring water from two jugs, is very popular in old statues. Now - if only I get on with subscribing to Aeclectic (which I should have done ages ago) I can upload some images. By the way, images that are reminiscent of The Tower are less common, but you do see them. Then of course there are the many, many pictures of The Last Judgement (Judgement) and, and and... I'll stop - but let's start a thread on this :-) ps - should it be under the History section? That seems to be where there are sometimes discussions about the iconography of tarot (which I suppose is what we are talking about)

The A late (k)night thread was originally posted on 13 May 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.