can't be a tarot christian?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Pixie	21 May 2003
I am a Christian, but I am in love with the tarot. Well the other day a friend told me I couldn't and wasn't a "faithful christian" if i read tarot. I don't want to compromise my religion, and I don't want to give up tarot! help! -Pixie :(

Mimers	21 May 2003
I am a Christian and I love Tarot too. It does not mean I love Jesus any less. I do not try to tell the future with my cards and even if I did, I am not breaking any law. The Bible is full of fortune telling. And yes there is that verse in the old testiment that you should not practice divination. There are also laws that say you should not cut your hair or to bathe at only certain times. I am sure if this person is your friend that their concern for you is genuine, however a very wise man once said, 'take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter out of another's' Follow your heart. That is all I can say. If it truely upsets you so much that you are unsure, then give up the cards. Peace in your heart and mind are more important. Good luck, Mimi

Pixie	21 May 2003
thank you so much!!!! It helps so much to hear from a fellow Christian reader!!!! thank u bunches! - Pixie :)

joszefja	21 May 2003
Hi Pixie-- I'm a Christian who's new to Tarot (and pretty new to Christ, for that matter...:) ), and I also am struggling a little with this. I have to say, though, that I believe that God can turn ANYTHING to good, and if you approach Tarot as prayer (asking God to help you know His will for you, and to help you understand yourself), I just cannot see how pictures on paper could be bad. Like Mimers, I don't try to tell the future with the cards-- also, I don't think I could read for other people. I just use them as a psychological tool, to understand my own motivations and feelings better. But I think as long as you remember that God is the force speaking to you through the cards, you're in good shape. :) I think people who make judgements about the Tarot by saying that you're not a Christian (or worse) if you use it, are probably speaking from good intentions-- but from ignorance. Since as Christians we're supposed to try and bring others to Christ, I think sometimes some Christians try a little TOO hard to make sure our neighbors are on the right path. I wouldn't judge your friend too harshly. But I'd also be careful about who I confided in about Tarot, or anything else out of the mainstream. Follow your feelings. If you can't sleep at night because you're THAT worried that Tarot is a sin-- then set the cards aside for a while. You can always go back to them if you change your mind. God bless, Josie

truthsayer	21 May 2003
there is a christian tarotist who has written several books on tarot. her name is eileen connolly. she even did her own deck. connelly is very heavy with prayer and ritual in her tarot teachings. you might feel more comfortable with tarot if you were to learn from her approach. you would probably be uncomfortable with some things about tarot but tarot isn't just about divination. i use it more for self-discovery and collecting cards with really terrific art work. it's also a great way to meet wonderful people from all around the world. tarot uses archetypes and psychology which is also used in the Bible. they are simply different ways to explore the human experience. try reading some carl jung or joseph campbell. while they don't talk about tarot specifically, there is much to learn from archetypal psychology and mythology in understanding the peoples of the world.

HudsonGray	21 May 2003
Personally I don't believe everything friends tell me. As the others here say, the bible is full of divination--divination being done by priests, by individuals, by those in power. Daniel and the dream interpretations for the pharaoh are the strongest that come to mind at the moment. Don't worry about doing something wrong. I see no conflict with tarot & their use, it's something that focuses inward and makes connections with your subconscious not something that goes outwards and connects to entities. Plenty of Christians use tarot cards.

callahwj	22 May 2003
The tarot is a collection of archetypal images. In and of itself, it can't possibly be evil. It is up to you and your God-given conscience to decide what to do with those images. I personaly see no conflict between biblical christianity and the cards. Listen to your conscience before your friends and you will be ok. -Bill

Kiama	22 May 2003
Until the age of 14 I was devout Christian. But from the age of 9 I used Tarot. I never saw any conflict in them at all really, because I saw it as just another act of prayer. Christians pray, and seek answers from God and the Bible. I did the same, but with the Tarot. I also saw that the Bible is full of divination and fortune-telling. In the Old Testament Balaam is made to utter five oracles in the name of God. Joseph, Jacob's favourite son, foretold the future through dream analysis. It is widely thought that the three wisemen who visited Jesus were astrologers. And look at the wonderful book of Revelations: A book which is all prophecy. If anybody told me that fortelling the future was evil/against God, I'd give them a scenario to imagine: Imagine you're standing by the side of a busy road, and suddenly you notice that a man has walked out into that road, where there is a bus speeding towards him. You immediately scream out: "Stop! If you carry on, you'll get run over by a bus!" This is foretelling the future just as much as Tarot is: Both do the same thing - They examine the causes, and come to conclusions about the effects. I seriously doubt any good Christian will say that telling that man he will be hit by the bus is against God. Throughout my whole life, I've thought that whatever deity was out there wants humans to strive to understand the Universe, Life, human nature, etc, in order to grow towards god-like/Christ-like existence, and be able to benefit the planet and human kind better. Tarot was just another way for me to do that, since for me not only was it a fortune-telling tool, but it was a 'map of the universe', and just like the Bible, it carried useful messages which could be applied to spirituality and everyday life. I realised at the age of 14 however, that many of my other beliefs fit in exactly with neo-Paganism, so I turned to that instead. But essentially, my beliefs are still the same, and I still believe that the Tarot is a way to grow in understanding towards a more spiritual existence. Welcome to the forum by the way! :D Kiama

lunalafey	22 May 2003
'faithful' christian, everyone is so right. But once you put your mind & heart to rest with tarot, your still going to have to deal with your friends. You might want to point out that the 3 wise men where called Magi,this is where the word Magic comes from. These men where holy men & astrologers. We do not know exalty 'how' they knew about where & when Christ would be born, but I bet it came from many forms divination(and meditation & prayer).

Khatruman	22 May 2003
A.E. Waite constructed his tarot from a Christian perspective. Enough said. Also, please do a search on this forum for Tarot and Christianity. This issue has been addressed by many, and there is some wonderful advice in other threads regarding it. I know I have addressed it a few times for others who encountered this narrow minded thinking. Tarot is about learning, being open to others and caring for them, seeing the spirit around us, and if that isn't the main message that Jesus preached, well some of the Christians you are talking to need to get their heads back on straight!

Macavity	22 May 2003
I would imagine it's possible to be ANYTHING as well as a Tarot reader. :) Whether SOME Christians (or folk of any organised pursuasion!) will continue to view you as being "one of them" is another matter? I guess it depends how much you value their opinion? I must admit it can take a lot of effort to be "different" and (often) more than I am willing to invest these days. Some thrive on such things! But I'm not really much of a one for organised... anything. ;) Best, Macavity

cjtarot	22 May 2003
Hi, I am also a Christian. I am currently adding bits and pieces of other religions to my beliefs though. I look at my cards this way: The information I get comes from a higher source and is given for a reason. That is why there are times when you ask a question and the cards ignore it and give you info/advise on another part of your life the ALMIGHTY wants you to examine and do something about before you tackle the question at hand. The fun I had was with a my friends devout catholic motherinlaw..we had a discussion..she was totally against the cards because of the Death and the Devil card...SO I pulled them out and went into a long lesson on how important they are and their exact meaning. I don't think she got it..but it gave her something to think about.. I wish you luck in your path. A bit of advise, a true friend will acept you as you are (they may not want to discuss tarot, but they will not put you down because of it). Blessings, CJ

Alex	22 May 2003
who says?

Centaur	22 May 2003
There is nothing wrong with being a Christian who practises tarot. I think (I may be wrong) that this stems from the whole Biblical thing about not dabbling in black arts, etc. But what else has the Bible been wrong about? Homosexuality for one. And there are plenty of good gay Christians around. C

Khatruman	22 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur But what else has the Bible been wrong about? Homosexuality for one. And there are plenty of good gay Christians around. I don't believe it is a matter of the Bible being wrong, but as interpretation being wrong. As I say to anyone who wishes to quote Scripture: Give me context!!! Too many Christians take pieces of text and present them as if the Bible is a self-help book written directly to the reader. There are stories in there, quotes of someone saying something to a specific people, which is, I think, where the anti-homosexuality comes in. To my knowledge, the words against homosexuality were written to the ancient people of Israel. Perhaps it was justified within the context of that society. I am not studied enough on Jewish history to know, but perhaps the society of Hebrews was so fragile that it was necessary to insist on sexuality being used to propogate the race, which would make sense towards the banning of masturbation and birth control also. So it was "true" within that context, but not law towards humanity in general. Then of course there is the problem of translation, which adds another dimension. In anything written, it is up to the reader to find a interpretation that works properly, and it is up to all readers to be open to other readings of the same text.

Centaur	22 May 2003
I agree with you Khatruman. Another factor which must be considered is the fact that we are talking about an 'institution'. Institutionalised ways of thinking have the power to embed themselves upon one's mind as legitimate and unquestionable. For instance, the Roman Catholic Church (of which I am a member) is an example. To take my previous example; 'homosexuality as wrong' can be found to be backed up by various sources within the Vatican, including the Pope himself. This then can lead to the assumptions such as those surrounding ideas that a good Christian cannot be gay. I dunno ;) C

joszefja	22 May 2003
Me again. :) I've been thinking about this, and I had something of an insight, as least as to why *I* feel a little uncomfortable with what feels like a "strain" between Tarot and Christianity. It's the thought that using the Tarot, especially to try and "see the future" or to try to learn something that I don't already know in my subconcious/heart, feels like trying to "pull one over" on God-- trying to get around Him, to learn something He doesn't want me to know. So, for me, anyway, the thing to always remember is that God is the only one "working" the cards, and He's not gonna tell me anything He doesn't want me to know (i.e., that I don't *need* to know)-- that even if I did try and "trick" him somehow, it'd be like the time when I was 5 and I painted my name on the coffee table and then tried to convince my mom I didn't do it-- it's just not gonna work. :) Josie P.S. On a fairly unrelated note I wanted to put in my two cents about homosexuality and Levirate law-- my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that homosexual acts (along with bestiality, cross-dressing and a number of other things forbidden in the Old Testament) were focal points of worship of the various other gods in circulation at the time. So, by commiting a homosexual act, you would be in essence worshipping Baal or whoever, and thus denying the Lord. It doesn't have so much to do with the act, as with the intention-- like Tarot.:)

rota	22 May 2003
There's no conflict with Tarot and Christianity. Christians are just normal folks who live their lives and think a certain general way, wishing no harm to anyone. They have every sort of interest. And really, the same could be said of tarotists. There aren't any two Christians alike, and there aren't any two tarotists alike either. The two groups do overlap considerably, as people above have rightly pointed out. It may take awhile for the two to coexist in the same brain when different groups of people are telling you things that seem opposed. That's fine. Nobody's pushing you. Think about it as much as you want -- that's part of the learning process, and you'll gain a great deal of insight about both Christianity and Tarot as you struggle to understand them. ++++++ And speaking of Christianity and divination, is everybody aware that a well-known recent Republican president and first lady had a White House astrologer? True fact! This astrologer would choose times for events down to the second. Wonder how many other famous (and presumably Christian) people do that sort of thing? And what was J P Morgan's famous quote? Something about how 'millionaires don't use astrologers... Billionaires do.'

galadrial	22 May 2003
Funny thing, there are similar threads to this one among the Christian Heavy Metal fans (of whom I'm one:-) There are those who feel "qualified" to say that there are any number of things inconsistent with Christianity. But if I were you, I would seriously question whether there is really any biblical justification, or whether it just comes down to differences in taste and inclination. The Father wants us to serve Him with a joyful heart. He gives us each certain talents and interests, and when He is first in our lives we can follow those interests wholeheartedly and give to Him from our best, true selves. If you follow what other people think is "right" you may find you've left your joy, even your very self, behind. I've used tarot for over 6 years now and have never had a reading that in any way conflicted with my faith. I begin each reading with the prayer "Holy Spirit enlighten me, be a lamp of wisdom unto my feet. Today is a day the Lord hath made, let me rejoice and be glad in it." I also frequently use the 3 card spread: 1. How can I serve? 2. What is important? 3. What is necessary? Perhaps something similar would be helpful to you. May blessings and wisdom be yours whatever you choose.

callahwj	23 May 2003
I'm amazed by how many Christians do use tarot! Sounds like you're not alone at all, pixie. One thing that might interest you is a book called "Meditations on the tarot." It's writen from the perspective that the Tarot is a guide for esoteric christianity. I have not read this one yet, but it seems to be well reviewed. -Bill

Centaur	23 May 2003
Hey, Perhaps an idea would be for someone to design a Christian Tarot deck, based on biblical stories and saints, etc. Infact, I am sure that there is something like that existing today. There has to be! It is too good an idea for me to have thought up originally! ;) C PS. It could also come with a book; 'Tarot for Christians' :)

Keslynn	23 May 2003
Robert Place, a marvelous artist, has done a Tarot of the Saints. It's next on my "want" list. Also, Eileen Connolly's deck is very Christian oriented. I'm sure there are others, but those two are the big ones. :) Kes

Kyrielle	23 May 2003
There are also a couple of angel-themed tarot decks, although I don't know how Biblically accurate they are since I do not own them. The Connolly deck is very Christian in its symbolism, as is much of the RWS deck. The Golden Tarot of the Tsar (I think that's the name, or close at least) is based on the art style of Byzantine icons, and the cards all portray saints or Biblical stories or figures. There is a deck that has "Master" somewhere in the title -- I can't remember the exact title -- that is all about Christ. So a lot of tarot people are Christian. They are out there if you look for them. -- Kyrielle

Diana	24 May 2003
One of my old Tarot teachers was asked by the school authorities in one of the strictest Catholic cantons in Switzerland (a canton is a kind of a State, and some of the cantons are catholic), to teach children Tarot during the school holidays, as one of the activities they organise for kids during their vacations. If these guys can be open to Tarot, I reckon any Christian can! And no-one complained, not even the church. And as the Church and the State are not yet separated in that canton, they could certainly have stepped in if they had found it offensive.

Minderwiz	25 May 2003
The known history (as opposed to myths relating to the origins of Tarot) is European - from its origins in Italy (heavily Catholic and indeed where the Pope was an important temporal ruler) through France and spreading out through Western Europe it grew in a Christian environment. OK, at times the Church may have frowned on it - but probably more from any gambling associationes (don't forget its a card game too). If the Tarot was not consistent with Christianity, or at least not a threat to it, it would have been stamped out long ago. If Pope's can accept it then it ain't antichristian.

jmd	25 May 2003
As mentioned by Khatruman, Waite was a Christian - apparently, quite a strong one, for that matter - and so are many others who have designed or written about the Tarot. One of books I consider an absolute masterpiece is Meditations on the Tarot - a book absolutely steeped in Christianity. I also sense that on the main Continent of Europe, Tarot tends to be viewed far more as a deck arising and used from within the Christian view than in Anglophonic countries... though of course, as has been mentioned, us anglophones too tend to have a very large number of Christian writers and deck designers - even if in the popular mind the two appear apart.

Diana	25 May 2003
As to the Meditations on the Tarot, was it not you, jmd, (or perhaps it was Ophiel) who once pointed out to us a photo of this book on John-Paul II's desk? I do remember seeing a photo like that.

Minderwiz	25 May 2003
jmd, You are correct - Waite was a strong Christian - he was a Freemason and indeed a member of a number of other esoteric Christian societies.

raeanne	26 May 2003
Hi all, I have the Master Tarot by Montano and Folchi. It is a great Christian deck. Some would say it isn't a tarot deck because it doesn't have suits. There are, however, 78 cards. It has a Major arcana of 22 cards that are events in the life of Christ. It is surprisingly similar to a regular major arcana but there are some significant differences (VI is The Prophet not The Lovers, XIII is The Supper, as in the Last Supper, instead of Death, and XV is The Kiss, which is Judas, not The Devil). Instead of the four suits, it has cards numbered from 1 to 40 using regular numbers instead of Roman numerals. These 40 cards are the pip cards and they represent the different parables that Jesus taught. Finally, there are 16 people cards that aren't numbered, they just have names on them. These are people who had their lives touched by Christ. Because this deck doesn't follow the traditional structure of a tarot deck, it has to be treated as it's own entity. I think this deck is a nice bridge for Christians who are having problems deciding if tarot is OK or not. It allows a Christian to see how tarot works and all the benefits of the cards without being too much like a regular tarot deck. (Personally, I call it a tarot deck. Even without the four suits, the structure is still close enough to a standard tarot deck for me.) I think most Christians would relate well to this deck. A word of caution...don't confuse this deck with Tarot of the Master which is a Marceilles type deck.

callahwj	26 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana As to the Meditations on the Tarot, was it not you, jmd, (or perhaps it was Ophiel) who once pointed out to us a photo of this book on John-Paul II's desk? I do remember seeing a photo like that. I would love to see this photo, if anyone has it. -Bill

jmd	26 May 2003
... the picture!!!....

callahwj	26 May 2003
thanks JMD, that's awesome. That should come in very handy! -Bill

Aerin	27 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd ... the picture !!!.... I need to show this to my sister-in-law. She became slightly hysterical when she found out I had a *gasp* Tarot deck. Aerin

Macavity	27 May 2003
Sorry, couldn't resist... :laugh: Macavity

Menmay	28 May 2003
Im in the same boat your in, as a matter of fact I ask the same question a few days ago. Im Christian also but I have been reading the tarot for some time now. A freind told me that witch craft and the tarot is evil. Like I belive that but it hurt to think that Im not being faithful to my religion. I decided to stop listeing to what others say and to follow my heart belive me you cant go wrong with that ^_^ Good luck

ihcoyc	28 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd I also sense that on the main Continent of Europe, Tarot tends to be viewed far more as a deck arising and used from within the Christian view than in Anglophonic countries... though of course, as has been mentioned, us anglophones too tend to have a very large number of Christian writers and deck designers - even if in the popular mind the two appear apart. This is one of the reasons I prefer to have some kind of authenticity to the continental traditions in Tarot decks. As a Christian, paganizing decks seem slightly off and aggressive. I once looked at a Llewellyn book that purported to be about pow-wows (folk magic among the Pennsylvania Dutch). I have some connection with that tradition, and with very similar practices out of Sweden. Part of the book purported to discuss the use of the Psalms in that tradition. It said, though, that you could and should substitute "Goddess" for "God" in the Psalms to Wiccanize them, and substitute Wiccan god-names for "The Lord" and so forth. Several King James psalms were printed in the book with these edits. (This is Llewellyn, of course; no sources were given so that interested readers could look up the source of this lore and find out how it used to go.) This is one of the things that turned my attitude towads neo-paganism from amused indifference to something slightly more critical. It isn't the edits themselves that annoy, it's the aggressive revisionism, the notion that we can absorb anything by a few cosmetic changes. That Wiccan author apparently lacks the strength of mind to deal with a different tradition on its own terms, but wants to use it anyway.

jmd	28 May 2003
I can just see some people I know reading ihcoyc's post and responding with all types of comments from 'If I want to take parts of any other tradition, that's my prerogative' to 'Isn't that exactly what the Christians did by selecting what they wanted from other traditions (Jewish, Mithraic, Ancient pagan Greek, amongst numerous others) and modifying bits and pieces according to their peculiar views'!?? And did not the Golden Dawn, and indeed possibly even the early Tarot, aeclectically syncretise from various other traditions? But before this potentially erupts into mud-slinging, there is a sense in ihcoyc's post I deeply agree with too, and that is that what is being read and taken from other traditions also needs to be studied and understood - which it cannot be by merely changing a few words here and there to make it more pallatable to someone who deeply just disagrees with the surface understanding of the tradition they wish to 'borrow' from. Whichever direction this thread takes, it is wonderful to realise that Tarot and Christianity are deeply not only compatible, but, in my opinion, intrinsically connected at its deeper levels.

callahwj	28 May 2003
I don't beleive that copying from other traditions is at all sinister. I believe that every tradition is just an edit of the same myths in a different order. Some stories and ideas (resurection, virgin birth, etc) are universal and will find their way into every mythological paradigm. What concerns me is when one tradition claims exclusive credit for one idea. I beleive that tarot itself is a powerful tool for showing how universal these things are. -Bill

ihcoyc	29 May 2003
I'm not saying that this sort of editing is sinister, only that it seems somewhat superficial. Anyone who knows the traditions involved in pow-wows knows also that half of the recorded material deals with incantations to heal the complaints of your chickens and swine. Anyone who wants to work within it is practically going to have to update it to address more contemporary concerns. By getting some feel for what is going on there, it is possible to design new material in the spirit of the old. It seems likely it would also be possible to move it to a new set of spiritual beliefs. But attempting to edit a King James psalm to paganize it just strikes me as doomed to mislead and fail. It seems almost certain to confuse and distract the person who might want to try to work with the material at just the point she needs to concentrate. A reasonably literate reader is going to be aware that what she is reading is actually a text from a seventeenth century Christian Bible with some of the original names erased and new ones pencilled in. It's much the same way with Tarot. Ultimately, anyone who designs a Tarot deck is going to have to come to terms with the Papess, the Pope, the Devil, the Last Judgment, the four holy creatures, the Ace of Cups, and other cards whose traditional symbols have been sharply influenced by Christianity.

fairyhedgehog	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc Ultimately, anyone who designs a Tarot deck is going to have to come to terms with the Papess, the Pope, the Devil, the Last Judgment, the four holy creatures, the Ace of Cups, and other cards whose traditional symbols have been sharply influenced by Christianity. So we have travelled a long way, from 'can a Christian use the tarot?' to 'can a non-Christian use the tarot?' At least, that it the problem for me. As a materialist, I find Christianity to be a thought system with which I feel extremely uncomfortable. Maybe that is because I have mainly encountered it in its fundamentalist version, where Christianity is seen as the one and only true religion. The pagans I have met online take a more relaxed view so I feel more comfortable with pagan ideas. I also find that they fit more easily with my worldview, although I understand the supernatural elements in a psychological rather than a spiritual way. I have had to struggle with the Hierophant or Pope, the Judgement card, the Devil. (I'm not too keen on the Emperor either.) And yet there is something about tarot that is compelling - I haven't seen an oracle deck that draws me as strongly. I'm not sure where that takes me. I like the idea of decks that fit in better with my worldview than the RWS or the Connolly. But how far can Tarot evolve before it ceases to be tarot?

Moongold	29 May 2003
Quote: Whichever direction this thread takes, it is wonderful to realise that Tarot and Christianity are deeply not only compatible, but, in my opinion, intrinsically connected at its deeper levels. I agree with JMD to some extent It would be interesting and useful to explore the connections of Christianity and other major faiths with each other as well as to Tarot. There are many versions of Christianity. Some believe deeply in profound experiences of mysticism and some do not. Some would accept the Tarot and some would not. Some have communion which they firmly believe is the Body and Blood of Christ and others see this belief as nonsense. A couple of Tarot books on the Pope's desk does not mean that the Catholic Church endorses Tarot. Some parts of the Church would say that Tarot is all right and some would not. I'm sure the Pope has copies of the Koran and the Qabalah as well somewhere in his library. Does not each person ultimately have to follow his/her own conscience? I believe that God is loving and is much more interested in how we treat each other and our neighbours than in precluding the use of spiritual tools like the Tarot. We also have free will and intelligence, gifts of God, and it is how we use these in the service of our brothers and sisters in humanity that is really important. I don't wish to denigrate the discussion but speak as one who missed out on much that is really important in love and spirituality because of red herrings like this. I feel some frustration with the various versions of sin and morality that permeate the different types of religion. Metaphorically and literally, Christ distributed loaves and fishes to those who were hungry. I can't help but think he would wish people to have whatever spiritual tools they find useful to bring them closer to him. Pardon my frustration. I do remember reading in the old and new testaments that it is quite OK to feel this way from time to time. There are many biblical examples of it, including a few from Christ himself. Many blessings to all.....

full deck	29 May 2003
Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism by Robert Powell (Translator), Anonymous, Hans Urs Von Balthasar (Afterword) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1585421618/ref=nosim/aeclectic/ This is one of my favorites and, though a bit rambling, is *very* insightful.

ihcoyc	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog So we have travelled a long way, from 'can a Christian use the tarot?' to 'can a non-Christian use the tarot?' I'm not at all sure I would go that far. But yes, the tarot is obviously Christian. Cards that make American fundamentalists nervous, like Death and the Devil, are some of the most obviously Christian images in the deck; they're images you'd find in many, probably most, churches from the time the tarots were added to the deck of playing cards. Which isn't to say that only Christians can use the tarot; but I do think that people who have issues with Christianity would find their time better spent studying systems like runes, African or Islamic geomancy, astrology, or some more accomodating symbol system. They can try to remake Tarot in the image of their own beliefs, but these attempts usually strike me as somewhat forced and awkward. It's like trying to have Qabalah without YHWH, without the Hebrew Bible.

Aerin	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc Which isn't to say that only Christians can use the tarot; but I do think that people who have issues with Christianity would find their time better spent studying systems like runes, African or Islamic geomancy, astrology, or some more accomodating symbol system. They can try to remake Tarot in the image of their own beliefs, but these attempts usually strike me as somewhat forced and awkward. It's like trying to have Qabalah without YHWH, without the Hebrew Bible. I think I understand where you are coming from, I suspect it depends on what you mean by issues though. Personally I have issues with some who aspire to represent God within organised churches, however I don't have issues with Christianity per se. For example, I have issues with someone who tells me that divination is a sin, that if you don't devote yourself to the Lord not only you but also your family will burn in hell forever, and that women are fundamentally dirty and sinful: these ideas have all been represented to me by people (and I don't mean books or websites, I mean individuals I have met face to face) as non-debatable Christian views. As I have read more and more I have realised just how much spiritual systems have in common and how much there is to learn by approaching a concept from a different perspective. I don't find the decks I've used forced or awkward/ not depending on if they use Christian symbolism or not. I would certainly have problems with a deck that espoused any of the above views I've come across - although I suppose the first one would not be up for grabs ;) Aerin

Kiama	29 May 2003
I must admit, despite being Pagan, I have always loved the richness of Christian thought as found in the traditional Tarot deck. For me, discovering that there are references to the Book of Revelations in some of the Major Arcana was like coming upon a treasure chest! (And it certainly helped me understand the Empress from AE Waite's perspective). Understanding where the Christianity in a Tarot deck is is very useful. Though I don't see any harm in 'paganizing' (Love that word! })) it so it relates to you later on... But only AFTER one has understood the Christian aspects. To me, to 'paganize' a King James psalm has nothing inherently wrong in it... It's when the person who's paganized it decides to try and say that this is how it was and always has been that I start getting a little concerned... I was actually very surprised back at Easter, when a new acquiantance asked me why there was so much Christian imagery in a Tarot deck... Until that point I had thought that people realised in was a Christian thing... But it seems that in reality, people usually associate the Tarot with Paganism or witches... But then I guess the only reason why somebody would know why there was Christian imagery in a Tarot deck is if they knew where the Tarot as we know it comes from... Kiama

Minderwiz	29 May 2003
It is surprising how many people don't realise that the imagery is Christian. I remember that in my Tarot course I had to explain what the four beasts of Ezekiel were and where they could be found in the Tarot deck plus a cross reference to Revelations. Not to mention of course the appearance of Angels. Perhaps we should reply to any challenges that if they reject the Tarot then they are rejecting an aspect of Christianity - might slow them down a bit LOL

callahwj	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Understanding where the Christianity in a Tarot deck is is very useful. Though I don't see any harm in 'paganizing' (Love that word! })) it so it relates to you later on... But only AFTER one has understood the Christian aspects. To me, to 'paganize' a King James psalm has nothing inherently wrong in it... It's when the person who's paganized it decides to try and say that this is how it was and always has been that I start getting a little concerned This is what I was trying to say above. Well put! Many traditions share the same common ground in different ways, and If you're going to adapt something specific from another tradition, you should understand it and give credit where credit is due.

Moongold	29 May 2003
Quote: I was actually very surprised back at Easter, when a new acquiantance asked me why there was so much Christian imagery in a Tarot deck... Until that point I had thought that people realised in was a Christian thing... But it seems that in reality, people usually associate the Tarot with Paganism or witches... But then I guess the only reason why somebody would know why there was Christian imagery in a Tarot deck is if they knew where the Tarot as we know it comes from... If one works from the premise that the images represent universal archetypes, which seems to be generally agreed, then it is not surprising that Christian imagery appears in the tarots of 16th century Europe and later. Christianity was the predominent political, social and religious paradigm then. Some Christian myths are based on pagan and other paradigms as well. Christianity absorbed much from other belief systems. Knowing this, and having grown up in a Christian culture, I can use with ease, comfort and familiarity any number of Tarot decks. It is the archetype I am interested in, not so much the cultural representaion of it, although that cannot be denied. ..I welcome and find refreshing other representations of the archetypes in decks such as Shining Tribe, Osho Zen and so on. I hope our colleagues who struggle with the prejudice of others in terms of their interests in Tarot and Christian faith do manage to find a well lit and protected path through it all. It saddens and angers me of prejudice being represented by funamentalist believers, whether they be Christian or not, as truth. What happens is that people seek and find others of similar beliefs, or create their own communities, like this one.

vijeno	30 May 2003
Okay... let me fool around with "would be"s for a moment. Back 12 years ago, I was a christian, and from my present point of view, a rather fundamentalist one. I would have rejected the tarot back then because of the fortune-telling, witchcraft and satanism I supposed was connected to it. I'm saying I "would have", because I actually never encountered the cards back then, so I don't really know. Now.... today I know that you can use the tarot without having to be a wiccan. Without fortune telling, even. You can use it in a therapeutic context, for example. With my present knowledge of the tarot, but my beliefs of back then... I guess my biggest problems would be the following two: 1. Reincarnation Even if it is not clearly stated, and even if you can interpret the major arcana as a journey from birth to death to (christian) resurrection, I guess I'd still have a bad feeling about the circularity of the whole thing. You know, if it's development, it won't stop at trump 21. So... I guess I'd feel somehow reincarnation theories were imposed on me. 2. Duality That's the much bigger problem. Since I DID believe in the devil's existence "somehow", BUT did not believe anything like yin-yang, balance, or the like - and instead preferred the battle imagery where god wins all in the end - I would have a BIG problem with all that "trump 15 is not purely evil, all cards have positive and negative aspects" stuff. Just hypothetical thought of course... but it's fun...

Aerin	30 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by vijeno Since I DID believe in the devil's existence "somehow", BUT did not believe anything like yin-yang, balance, or the like - and instead preferred the battle imagery where god wins all in the end - I would have a BIG problem with all that "trump 15 is not purely evil, all cards have positive and negative aspects" stuff. Just hypothetical thought of course... but it's fun... Ohhhhh... reading your post, I have just realised that my interpretations of the RWC Devil tend to be perhaps rather one sided? I see it as being chained or attached to 'stuff', mainly material type 'stuff' that you could release yourself from if you chose to. My only other way of looking at it is the exact opposite (sort of) i.e. releasing yourself from 'stuff'. ('Stuff' = money, lifestyle, unhealthy relationships, overeaching career ambitions...whatever) What's the positive slant that fits with the RWC deck? And that is still broadly based on a Christian archetype? Aerin

vijeno	30 May 2003
Hmm... enlightenment I'd say... perhaps knowledge about the dangers of matter, and power by knowledge. But I'd not claim that I KNOW positive AND negative interpetations to each card. vijeno

coldsuns	01 Jun 2003
Why are you using Tarot? Being force to? For fun? Getting Rid of bore? Wanting to know the secrets of others? Want to understand others better? These are questions christian always ask me. I joined Christian 1 month ago but quited yesterday(Read Spiritually to know why). Many things happen to me. I asked myself, should i be a Christian and stop using Tarot or use Tarot and forget being about Christian before joining. My cell leader, obviously a Christian told me not to play with tarot. There is a spirit not -in- the Tarot but always a different spirit helping you to 'predict'. And nobody know whether the spirit is a good or a bad one. Even if it is a GOOD spirit, why does it want to play with you? What if it happens to be a bad spirit. Will you be haunted by it forever? To Christian, using Tarot is being..hm. It like, we use Tarot to 'predict' Why we want to 'predict'? We will find out one day. If we want to understand other better. Why not we mix with them rather than staying at home asking the Tarot?? I also quite confuse. So i hope that more people tell me about using Tarot. It is not wrong using Tarot. It is not that you arent faithful. But you are against God. Because God doesnt want you to use it.

HOLMES	01 Jun 2003
It is not wrong using Tarot. It is not that you arent faithful. But you are against God. Because God doesnt want you to use it. quote cold suns. "god" ? or the church? or the bible? for a person to be against the creator , the higest source is agian dependant on one point of view. where is it written that using the tarot is directly against god ? where is it written "god does not want you to use the tarot for the good of others ?" and who exactly wrote it ? as jesse the man who portrays jesus in the judas project. there is nothing wrong with power itself it is how you use it . tranpose tarot for power. there is nothing wrong with tarot itself it is how you use it. some use it for ripping off others and that gives us tarot readers a bad name. vice versa some use the bible to rip off others and those that believe a bad reputation as well. i sincerly believe the source of my inuition comes from my inner self, my higher self, and my connnection with the source (which i see as god of universal love, godess of universal love, and their creations which is us, which is represented by the dualities of son and daughter). it also comes from the teachings of tarot that i study that help me get through life.

HOLMES	01 Jun 2003
it is called soul tiding truth cards, there is an extra cards in there, but the major arcana and the minor arcana are there , (with one card added to the minor each and two added to the major ) 1. it is claimed not to be a tarot by those who made it . 2. it is has to come all the way from africa by sea still i use it to read for christian people when i read, (just i use my questor tarot to read for natives). also one can see great insight into christian thought as it pertains to the tarot. (though it claims to not be a tarot ehe see the paradox). i recomend it for any christian who wants to use it. http://www.aeclectic.net/soultidings/index.html (by the way my friend ordered me a deck and they got charged for two so the tarot came from africa , the extra copy left to go europe soemwhere and come back to the states and from there i have no idea where it went lol ) ((but it got in some fabalous travel time) also a review of the maste tarot on tarot passages, and pictures. http://www.tarotpassages.com/master1.jpg http://www.tarotpassages.com/master.htm the big issue me and my freind were discussing in the picture for absolute faith , the jesus figure is walking away on the water while the man who is peter obiviousley tries to chase him but it gives the feeling of abandonment rather then trust we were debating. and here is our own aeclectic site with the master tarot http://www.aeclectic.net/master/index.html interesting the son of man is the magican. it was called so in astro america review of a deck. and is hinted at in the jungian tarot as well.

Kiama	01 Jun 2003
Coldsuns, when you are walking by a road, and you see a man in th emiddle of that road, and you see a bus speeding towards him, what do you do? You shout to him 'You're going to get run over if you stay there!!!' Is that not 'predicting' the future? It is. And would any Christian see warning that man of what will happen as wrong? I certainly hope not. In this way, one cannot say that predicting the future is wrong, because if one does, one falls into a standard logical trap. What if we want to understand ourselves better? We always use many different ways of finding out about situations and ourselves. What makes Tarot any different to a personality test? What makes Tarot any different to asking yourself who you are? The Tarot is just another tool to help you get to the answers: Its no different to any other tool. Quote: It is not wrong using Tarot. It is not that you arent faithful. But you are against God. Because God doesnt want you to use it. God does though. If one uses Tarot, one can help other people tremendously. One can make the most of life. One can start to really understand themselves and the universe. What is wrong with that? Nowhere in the Bible does 'God' ever say that doing any of these things is wrong, nor is it said that using Tarot is wrong. Yes, it is said in the old testament that one mustn't use divination... Bt look at that quote in the Bible. What are the two quotes that come after it? They say that one mustn't have piercings or tatoos, or cut their hair above their temples. I will bet you that nearly all Christians who use the 'no divination' quote have piercings, tatoos, or cut hair. If they do, then how can they use the 'no divination' quote without also admitting that they are being hypocrites? Also in the Bible, we see God causing people to predict the future. In the old testament he causes a man called Balaam to utter five oracles in His name. The whole book of Revelations is a prediction of the future. Joseph, a man blessed by God and the favourite son of Jacob, yet another m,an blessed by God, predicted the future using dreams. Can one really say that God is against predicting the future and using Tarot? Judging by the Bible, I would say that God is actually FOR it. Apart from that however, one cannot ever truly know the will of God, so to say that God is against Tarot is quite shakey. I hope I made myself clear... I'm not at my most eloquent today! Kiama PS- Glad to have you back on Aeclectic Coldsuns!

coldsuns	01 Jun 2003
I as once a Buddhist never heard of any rules are are against God other than sins. But after joining Christian only i know that using Tarot and Witchcrafts are against Christian. Some say Tarot and Withcrafts are satanic..they arent nature happenings. There are spirits in Tarot for the process. I feel really confuse and sad but not depress. I keep asking myself which to choose. I know that me,myself can never accept 2. Because if i choose Christian, many people in Church will object me using it. And soon, i'll lose interest to Tarot. Then my cell leader ask my to remain in Christian and see about it. I dont consider myself emotionally as a Christian but i still believe in God. I love God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. I pray when i need their blessings. I still read bible and attend cell groups. I hope to understand the bible more.

krysia322	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by coldsuns Then my cell leader ask my to remain in Christian and see about it. I still read bible and attend cell groups. I hope to understand the bible more. I hope this doesn't come across in a bad way, but what is a cell leader? Do you access the internet in prison? Or is it some other kind of cell? * * * * * * My family, we're not Christian (though my father is Irish Catholic and my mother Jewish and I was baptized Episcopalian -sp?-). The beliefs my husband and I do share, lie within the Sweat Lodge, et al. I've seen and read threads on this board regarding Christianity and the tarot, and I guess I just don't see (understand) how working with tarot decides one's religion. Religion/religious beliefs and the tarot are separate entities, IMO. I see the tarot as a tool that can be used by All, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, and other what-have-you backgrounds, and I figure most people who work with the tarot share a similar view... I also feel that Creator would not have shared the knowledge of the tarot in the first place if S/He didn't want us to have it and utilize it. With regard to tarot and Creator, I feel that tarot is more connected with one's spirituality than one's religious institution. Let's not forget that going against something Christian doesn't mean going against Creator. Christianity is a relatively new kid on the block, after all. Whereas Creator is eternally Before, eternally During, and eternally After... Always.

Shadow Wolf	01 Jun 2003
I was raised Roman Catholic but I'm not too happy with the church right now. I'm really into tarot, and it's been my experience that the cards will not tell you what you're not meant to know. There have been several reading that I did for myself and others that have me wondering so .......what else ??????? come on...... you can tell me......... Sometimes situations have to resolve themselves without interference, so at these times our tarot readings give us part of an answer or a clue as to what to do next. It's NOT fortune telling. It just kind of keeps you moving in the right direction.

ihcoyc	01 Jun 2003
As a Christian, the notion you sometimes hear that tarot (or Ouija boards, or what have you) opens up a gateway to some suspicious, probably evil spirit, strikes me as rank nonsense. Yes, demons exist. They are indeed dangerous. And people are plenty open enough to their influence without bothering with tarot cards or ouija boards. If you want proof, look around: you'll find it. The notion that demons communicate with us through the tarot suggests that the demons aren't very smart or very powerful. They go through an elaborate lot of rigmarole to convey messages to a small minority of the population that, let's face it, are sometimes hard to interpret. Real demons deserve more circumspect respect than that. The Bible has plenty of precedent for people who seek advice by casting lots. Moses consulted the Urim and Thummim --- casting lots. So did King David. The prophet Jonah did it. The apostles cast lots to pick a successor for Judas Iscariot. The way I see it, the tarot is just a slightly more sophisticated version of the same thing.

Kiama	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by coldsuns I as once a Buddhist never heard of any rules are are against God other than sins. But after joining Christian only i know that using Tarot and Witchcrafts are against Christian. Some say Tarot and Withcrafts are satanic..they arent nature happenings. There are spirits in Tarot for the process. I feel really confuse and sad but not depress. I keep asking myself which to choose. I know that me,myself can never accept 2. Because if i choose Christian, many people in Church will object me using it. And soon, i'll lose interest to Tarot. Then my cell leader ask my to remain in Christian and see about it. I dont consider myself emotionally as a Christian but i still believe in God. I love God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. I pray when i need their blessings. I still read bible and attend cell groups. I hope to understand the bible more. Coldsuns, I feel for you: Being confused about what one believes is not the easiest thing to do. *Hugs* Have you considered trying to reconcile the two beliefs however? Remember, that there is a big difference between what your Christian friends say, and what God says. We have seen already that the Bible itself doesn't have anything against Tarot (And where it does, it fall sinto a logical trap.) There is, therefore a definite possibility that God loves Tarot! In fact, when I was Christian, I used the Tarot to find out God's will, just as somebody might use prayer. I also used it to help others find out what was best for them: I helped them make the most of their lives, and I cannot believe that any God wouldn't want you to help others in such a wonderful way. When you read the Bible, what are you doing? When I read it, I was looking for guidance and insight into life. That is exactly what we do when we use Tarot. It is possible to be a Christian Tarot reader. Kiama

jog1118	01 Jun 2003
tarot is definitely a no-no in the christian/catholic perspective. i suggest that you follow your heart...if you believe you are not doing anything wrong, then continue your interest. i am a roman catholic and everyone who i have talked to told me to stop my tarot activities. guess what?...i am still into tarot...

Kiama	02 Jun 2003
That's odd, because the Christians I have spoken to have nothing against Tarot, and in fact many of them have got themselves decks to use themselves! It does depend on what sect of Christianity or church one talks about. Roman Catholics generally are against Tarot, whilst some of the newer, more liberal churches are fine with it. Kiama

HudsonGray	02 Jun 2003
Yes, I think it's just specific groups that have a problem. I was raised Roman Catholic & it obviously didn't stop me either. There are so many Angel decks & christian oriented decks available now. They've got to be selling to SOMEONE in the christian religious groups, that's where the interest in the theme for the decks lay, after all. Coldsuns, your use of the word 'cell leader' leads me to suspect a missionary effort? Catholics don't use that term here in the states. If you're being converted by missionaries, they're usually pretty adamant about dropping ALL influences that may confuse people seeking a religious change--tarot, books, etc. it doesn't make a difference. But it's very confusing to the people being converted to know what's good & what's not when this is done. I don't think they're doing you any favors. The catholics I know have no problem with a deck of tarot cards. I've noticed that some Baptists have, in our area, but not the Catholics.

cleung	05 Jun 2004
Coldsuns, I had the same problem with my cell group people too, not just the cell group leader. About two years ago I became a devoted Christian, and at that point I stopped using the tarot and started by intense study of the bible trying to understand "so what's right and what's not". Go to sunday school religiously. I must admit although I was having trouble trying to explain my philosophy on the tarots, and the wonderful experience I have doing healing meditation for others. (a little background, I came to the point where a lot revived to me by angels.. or at least I feel so "loved" that I believe they are angels who send me messages and dreams, and that was Jesus who rid my demons haunting hallusination!! I was terrified when I foreseen the 911 event. Praying to God for protection does work.... and that leads me to approach Christianity) I finally quit going to church and stopped hanging out with my wonderful cell group friends and churches bros and sis :( They are very good people, just that I started to feel Im ashame of myself when I meditate and use my tarot even to help people. Of course it is like either you choose to stay with your bros and sis, or not. However I didn't see it as I quit "God" for my tarot. I feel closer and being able to see my prayers being answered again from my dreams and meditation without the "ashame" blockage, I feel closer to God . I did doubt about this a while.. "because I not involve with my bros and sis anymore, evil again tried to lurn into me and gives me fault hopes and images, things so good that they are trying to manupulate me" But then how can my dreams become so loving from a demon! For me.. God is nothing but LOVE, everything else is nothing without LOVE. so Demon is nothing when God's love is present. Now two years later, I am still trying to find a way back to my sunday school and my good friends without feeling ashame of myself. Some Christian schools use flash cards on Jesus stories to teach young children to understand his stories and teaching. Now, I found couple decks which basically will do the same thing, using Jesus story and the teach behind the story. I do believe tarot can be used to help people, since Jesus teaching are the "way of life" in the Christian community, why not use them to help people! It also gives non-Christian an understanding of what Jesus is about. Just don't call them TAROT if this word gives a feeling of "wrongness". I am starting on the Tarot of Saints, waiting for my Master Tarot to arrive. Afterall, it is your choice to stay in Church or not. Either way will lead to the where you heart resides. Best wishes in your path Coldsuns.

Sillanza	07 Jun 2004
Just my opinion ... but I'm pretty sure that God wants us to look within ourselves and connect to that part of us that is eternal. The tarot is just one of the many tools that can help us accomplish this. As a divination tool, I don't know if the tarot is any better or worse than any other. I know that if the message is meant to be heard, it will be heard consistently. Let's also remember that one of the main reasons that the writers of the bible advised against using any kind of divination was that in antiquity only those in power were privy to such services.

Lady Mary	07 Jun 2004
I had a (rather short – see below) discussion with my boyfriend regarding Religion vs. Tarot. Q: Why do you think the Catholic Church is against Tarot? A: Because they want you to listen to their priests and obey to their rules, and not do what the Tarot cards (your own heart) tells you. I couldn’t help laughing :D about this short (and indeed very precise) answer. It’s a question of power and everything else (black magic and bible against it, etc.) is just a pretext!

dolphingirl	07 Jun 2004
I personally feel that we each have to look within ourselves to decide what is right and what it wrong as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If you are comfortable with your use of tarot I can't see why god wouldn't be. :) Samantha

Yatima	07 Jun 2004
To the "Meditations on the Tarot" on an esoteric Christianity it should also be mentioned that the late Hans Urs von Balthasar, no less than a Roman-Catholic Cardinal and Swiss theologian of sorts has written the afterword... Yatima

Rusty Neon	07 Jun 2004
http://www.medtarot.freeserve.co.uk/pictures.htm or, if that link doesn't work for you ... Cached version of that webpage: http://216.239.37.99/search?q=cache:t5nP9v3sGrMJ:www.medtarot.freeserve.co.uk/pictures.htm+pope+%22meditations+on+the+tarot%22&hl=en

miss_apples	08 Jun 2004
I like to see the tarot as a tool I use to communicate with God. To me, God is not just my creator, he is a part of me. Since I believe that God is a part of all of us, we have every right to try and communicate with him, even if we use something such as tarot to do that. Remember the Bible says that God is perfect. But then the Bible also turns around and says that God is jealous and vengeful. How can a perfect God be jealous and vengeful? The awnser I believe is because the Bible was transelated many many times in many different languages by humans. Its kind of like playing a game of telephone, the true message gets distorted. Also, somewhere down the line Im sure a ruler or two put in their own words to help them control their kingdoms. So I choose to only believe the parts of the bible that make sense and are out of love. Also I kind of find it hypocritical that they would be opposed to tarot. I mean, look at all the holiday things they adapted from the pagans such as the Christmas tree, The Yule Log, and The Easter egg!

jmd	08 Jun 2004
Christianity is NOT against Tarot. Christianity is basically about a path to the Spirit, with recognition of the incarnation of the Godhead within the body of Jesus. That, amongst its numerous festivals, people have retained and Christianised various festivals held (whether Solstice or other) is quite natural. After all, basic annual cycles would not be altered by becoming Christian, but rather a new understanding as to what may be going on would be sought. The adoption of the Mithraic 25th of December as the symbolic date of the birth of Jesus, or the Oestre post-vernal equinoctial celebration with the realisation of Christ's death and resurrection, or the descent of the Sophia of God upon the congregation 50 days following such, are each essentially also Christian festivals. That individual Christians, or groups of Christians, deride Tarot is a reflection of their own limited views, not a reflection of Christianity. It perhaps needs to be remembered that there are more decks which have, as a foundation, Christians involved in their design, then possibly any other religion or religious movement. Likewise, the variety of books written on the Tarot by Christians is vast. If anyone has an official quote from the Catholic Church against Tarot, I would indeed be surprised, and would be interested in reading it. That some of its individual priests have perhaps talked against it isn't a reflection of the church as a whole, neither are the abhorent actions which a small number of its priests may have committed is a reflection of other priests nor of the Catholic Church... I am not in the least suggesting that its particular structures are attractive, by the way, rather that I have yet to find (not that I've looked in great detail) at its prohibitions against the usage of Tarot.

miss_apples	08 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Christianity is NOT against Tarot. Certainly it isnt. Just that some Christians would like people to THINK that Christianity is against tarot.

nocturnaldreamr	10 Jun 2004
agrhhh why can't we just all do what we want and what makes us happy, satisfied, loved, inspired, motivated, intrigued..... why can't we just "be"? =o) theres my philosophical babblings for today. adios.

Flavio	10 Jun 2004
Tarot is one more victim in the "Holy War" against New Age things(as called by the Churches) like Astrology, Music, Tarot etc... To avoid trouble, I get to know how a person thinks before discussing about Tarot, I know there is nothing wrong with it, usually enjoy opening other people's minds but there are persons whose mind is more closed than a high security safe box.

tao51	10 Jun 2004
I have been a Christian all my life. I have yet to see aconflict between Tarot and Christian beliefs. Once while doing a reading an observor told me that I was walking with the devil. Oh, well everyone has an opinion. Man has always sought to understand events in a divine scheme of things. Divination is an ancient art. --Tao

Tarot Sparrow	10 Jun 2004
In my humble opinion, you can be/do anything you want as long as you believe in it. No one has a right to tell you what's right or wrong when it comes to beliefs, because that's exactly what they are. Beliefs, not rules.

Yatima	16 Jun 2004
I searched the homepage of the Holy See for "Tarot". The search brought up the following word: "nothing"... Yatima

Khatruman	16 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Excellent observation, jmd. This is something important to note in any group of people. Those who are regular "sheep" in the flock tend to want to follow along, not rock the boat, or think for themselves. To them, their religion means going to church on Sunday, listening to what the sermonizer tells them, and memorizing lines from the Bible to tell them what the Bible says. I am always reminded of the great scene in Life of Brian where Brian is trying to convince the masses that they are individuals, and they all agree..in unison :P And to bring out another point here. The Life of Brian is often cited by the same Christians as being anti-Christian, as it is targeting the very Christians whose blind following pervert the very message they profess. It is interesting how the underlying message of Jesus' teachings was to do away with the spiritless law-following of the Jewish church of his time and welcome all into the understanding of the Supreme Being, and many of these Christians do the opposite by condemning those who don't follow their laws and damn them to hell.

lionette	16 Jun 2004
Narrow mindedness is a state of lacking spirituality, no matter which religion one subscribes to. edited to fix typo -- :)

isthmus nekoi	16 Jun 2004
Quite natural to be into tarot if you're a gnostic christian ;)

divinerguy	16 Jun 2004
Maybe I'm an oddball, but I beleve my creator placed me on this planet with a free will. Because of the breadth of beliefs in Christianity alone, following any system will get you into trouble with another sect. Sooo, I believe that if I am to be judged by anyone, it will be against my own personal code of ethics. As such, the question is - Was I true to myself?

TTiana	18 Jun 2004
I am a Christian and I've been studing Wicca and now Tarot. My mom really doesn't like me having a mind of my own and straying from the path she's known all her life--being a Christian. But she knows I gotta do my own thing and I think she respects that. I'm not going to give up what I love to make her happy. No one should. :) Now the rest of my family is a different story. lol. They're even worse.

rainstarhorizon	17 Jul 2004
The human psyche,without any outside "culture"(anything from any of the ages that we share as culture or entertainment)IS full of symbolism and imagery and we poor humans then struggle to apply meaning to it.So any tarot deck is just a secondary storehouse of some of those images-how can the little cup-the tarot,be a sin if the big cup -always full-is you?I'd say if you are committted to trying to be a christian and better person then your care for others would make you a better tarot reader. The split between christian scholars seems to be between those of the old and new testament.Those who give both enough time are more evenhanded as other ATF members have pointed out to you here-the bible is full of the strange and unusual,to us. I do have some advice tho' if that's to balance your question:Be a bit careful when working on your own readings and alone.You need to remember you will be a student of the tarot for a while. Don't expect long chains of unchangeable truths to come from your personal readings and then freak out...the future is always up to the person in the end-remember free will? A nice examples is don't pull a card in the morning if you think you'll be late-RUN FOR THE BUS!!(Thanks to Paul Fenton-Smith,"The Tarot Revealed". Good Luck and keep your life rich.

bublee_tweety	04 Aug 2004
I once been asked by my querent what can I say to those who are against tarot reading, those who believed that it is against the teaching of God, that it is bad.... Well, firstly, as long as I read for those who are open for this...there is no problem...but for those who are against..here is my answer...I believed that I was chosen by GOD for this kind of task...giving guidance for others and I can't see nothing wrong with it as long as I don't hurt others....I am not using the tarot for divination...instead I used it as my guide...to clarify things that I don't know...I am blessed I was given this special ability...remember God also uses things/people to help those who are in need, and I am glad I am used as His instrument for good. I don't force others to believe in tarot, it's a matter of belief and choice. I also imply to those I gave my readings that I don't call tarot reading as fortune/future telling cause I know no one except God trully knows what will happen to us, but instead I call my reading as a guidance reading. It is better to call it this way coz tarot reading is not a guessing game, it is a matter of being receptive of what the inner you or the energy within you and the whole world was trying to say to help you a better individual.

acolyte	05 Aug 2004
Well I too call myself christian but for a long time i have felt the pull of divination.I had a fascination for palm reading when I was a child and the pull has always been there so I have just gotten my first set of tarot cards and I am thinking of getting a new deck soon.I think as long as u do not put the cards above God there is no problem.Tarot is just another way of the divine using us to communicate to those who are not gifted enough to get in touch with the divine within them.

ladymermaid	18 Aug 2004
my mom is christian i am not. before my mom became a christian she was in too tarot cards had many decks in too. when she became christian she stopped buying tarot cards she gave me all her decks. she told me she did not need tarot card's when she has god in her life. she said tarot is not from god it's from man. that's how the devil plays with you. makes tarot look like it can't hurt but it can. she is not in too tarot or any new age. me i love tarot it's part of who i am. i guess it depends on the person. i don't think if a christian person want's to be in too tarot should be a crime. it's your life do what makes you happy. don't care what others think.

rosyelf	28 Aug 2004
This is such an interesting thread. Thank you to everyone for posting their thoughts and feelings about this one. Until I discovered tarot 9 years ago, I held the popular misconception that it was just a load of cobblers perpetuated by dodgy-looking women with black mascara. How wrong can you be ! And mixed in with that was the idea-which I didn't examine-that it was "not Christian." As several people have said, all sorts of things are forbidden in the Old Testament-not just divination -you're also not meant to eat various forms of meat(not just pork-things like ostrich, too !-does ANYONE eat ostrich?), women aren't meant to go outside without a hat or headscarf, men aren't meant to touch their women during menstruation, etc. etc. Some of these things are still observed by the Jewish tradition, but not all. THINGS CHANGE. It's important to look at context. It's also important to ask: why is (such and such a church) against Tarot ? I am with Ladymary when she says it's about power.Tarot is very democratic, anyone can do it-in the old days, when knowledge of Tarot was transmitted orally, you didn't even have to be literate to be a Tarot-reader. On the other hand, many churches are hierarchical in structure and patriarchal to boot. How terrifying it must be to such men to be aware of WOMEN acquiring spiritual insights without their imput, and to be giving spiritual advice too(which is what a good tarot reading should be). Gay people can do it. ANYONE can do it.. .Which is one reason why it really attracted me and why I love it so much. I think it's very important to look at motive. Are we seeking to become wiser, kinder and more compassionate when we get out our Tarot cards ? If we are, I can't see that Jesus would object . On the other hand, if we are trying to manipulate and control, then I don't know of ANY religious tradition that would approve of that.

shelikes2read	29 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Pixie I am a Christian, but I am in love with the tarot. Well the other day a friend told me I couldn't and wasn't a "faithful christian" if i read tarot. I don't want to compromise my religion, and I don't want to give up tarot! help! -Pixie :( As a person who is not only a devout Catholic, but has had an interest in Tarot for several years now, I empathize with your dilemma. I decided, not long after I began learning to read Tarot, that I would ALWAYS give God the glory for all correct information that came through in my readings, be it good news or bad. I was going to presume that any correct information was from God, give God thanks for it, and not go off on an ego trip that *I* was the reason for being accurate. That way, I would keep from the pitfall of getting too full of pride -- a sure way to come crashing down sooner or later. Plus, for the people whose warning is "The devil wants to tempt people away from God, so he gives correct information during readings so people stop relying on God and start relying on cards"... well, I figured that the devil's not going to be too interested in giving ME any correct information, if I'm going to give God the credit for it every time. As long as we keep God first in all things, we won't fall into the trap of thinking that either the cards or we are more important than God. We also won't be tempted to go down the path of the frauds, charlatans and snake-oil sellers who give the readers with an honest heart a bad name. But I also know that everyone has to find the place where Tarot reading fits, or doesn't fit, in their own life... no matter what faith they belong to. I just am sharing this because these are the things that went through MY mind while I processed the concept of being a Catholic and learning about Tarot.

Jeanette	29 Aug 2004
I think your approach is just wonderful, shelikes2read! When you are a Christian tarot reader, and give all glory to God in everything you do, how can you go wrong? :) Tarot also seems to be a very spiritual thing, no matter what your religious persuasion. And if you are helping people, it seems to me that it is a good thing. I don't presume to be able to foretell the future, because I feel that only God can know that. But tarot does help with understanding feelings and things going on around us every day. Maybe somebody could come up with a prayer for Christian tarot readers to use when they are doing readings? That would be nice.

Nevada	29 Aug 2004
Even if Tarot didn't provide divination it could be considered a wonderful source of healing. When you think about it, just the fact that it provides openness, a listening ear, and objectivity for someone who has questions about their life makes it a healing influence. There are questions we have that we can't necessarily take to friends or family, and may not even want to take to clergy. Who else is there to listen and give advice? We don't all have problems that require legal, medical, or psychological expertise. We just need a sounding board. Who better to go to with this sort of need than a good Tarot reader? The intuitive, divining aspect is simply a bonus and added blessing. I think this concept fits into any spiritual or social belief set. Nevada

Kit	30 Aug 2004
What you believe in is up to YOU. At the crux of it, all religions are much the same. Most are based upon belief in a creator or divine being and a set of rules of how to live one's life well. Tarot does not tell you how to live your life in either a good or bad way. Tarot is not religious but spiritual- a way to sift through your own thought to find meaning in the world. And what is evil about that? Raeven

Barbwra	31 Aug 2004
I hope those of you who question whether it is OK to read the tarot cards because of the judgment of others will find peace in knowing that it is not up to others and they do not have a right to tell you what is right and wrong. I believe that we are not meant to judge others. If there is a final judgment, then let God (or whoever does the judging) decide. I believe the Bible was written by man for the purpose of controlling people and since it was taught to many at a very early age, it becomes ingrained and accepted without question, which is just what the hierarchy wants. My conclusion is that it is OK to read the tarot. I believe it helps focus on what is going on in one's life and thereby helps keep things in perspective. As far as fortune-telling goes, nothing the cards may reveal is cut in stone. I believe all messages are there for consideration and not something by which to live. What could be wrong with that? www.tarotstudio.com

shelikes2read	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Barbwra I hope those of you who question whether it is OK to read the tarot cards because of the judgment of others will find peace in knowing that it is not up to others and they do not have a right to tell you what is right and wrong. I believe that we are not meant to judge others. If there is a final judgment, then let God (or whoever does the judging) decide. I believe the Bible was written by man for the purpose of controlling people and since it was taught to many at a very early age, it becomes ingrained and accepted without question, which is just what the hierarchy wants. My conclusion is that it is OK to read the tarot. I believe it helps focus on what is going on in one's life and thereby helps keep things in perspective. As far as fortune-telling goes, nothing the cards may reveal is cut in stone. I believe all messages are there for consideration and not something by which to live. What could be wrong with that? www.tarotstudio.com On the one hand, ALL the traditions that are multiple generations old have been handed down over the years, often (or in the case of religions/cultures, I should probably say "usually") to people at a young age. This ranges from the tenets of countless religions to the tradition followed by a US Olympic Greco-Roman wrestler a few days ago, as he abandoned his shoes in the wrestling ring as the traditional gesture showing that he is retiring from the sport. Teaching a values system to children from a young age isn't automatically a negative thing, nor is it necessarily a control/hierarchy issue. Teaching children to be intolerant, judgemental, and narrowminded, and teaching them NOT to be critical thinkers, however, is another issue. Some people of every faith manage to impart a clear sense of right and wrong, a strong sense of honesty, ethics and fairness, etc to their children while teaching them the precepts of that religion and handing down their culture's traditions. If I have children someday, God willing, that's how I hope to raise them. However, the unfortunate thing is that some people, in their attempt to train their children in a particular faith, manage to instruct them to be closed-minded, intolerant, NEVER EVER question anything before they decide to believe it, and to judge everyone who strays in the least way from whatever belief system THEY were taught. That's unfortunate, and it also strays away from just about every faith I've ever heard of that teaches compassion, kindness, and tolerance along with how to determine right from wrong. But to relate the above opinions to the original topic of the thread: the reason that I can consider myself a Catholic AND still read Tarot is that to me, it's the INTENT of the person doing the Tarot reading that is important. If the person is learning Tarot in order to do positive things, like gain insight into their own lives or help counsel others who need advice, that's fine. At least, it's fine as long as they don't fall into the trap of thinking, "I'm better than everyone else because I have Tarot-reading skills", or else develop an unhealthy dependence on cards, which are merely pieces of paper. Those are a couple of huge pitfalls that even a Tarot reader with honest intentions could fall into, and they must be avoided at all costs. On the other hand, if someone studies Tarot so they can be "one up" on everyone else, if they try to swindle, impress (or scare!) other people with their Tarot knowledge, if they attempt to pry into other people's lives when they have no business doing so... that's a HUGE wrong. ANYthing that a person does in order to bully, scare, or be unethical toward other people is just plain wrong, whether Tarot is involved or not. The Tarot isn't the problem in this case, the person's INTENTIONS are. And chances are, a person with this sort of unethical mindset would find other ways to try and manipulate others, if they couldn't find a way to do so with a Tarot deck. That's why I'd recommend to anyone who's considering studying Tarot, but isn't sure if they're doing the right or wrong thing, to examine their motives closely. Because that, in the end, is going to make the difference between whether or not it's the right or wrong thing to do for any given person: whether the person is using their ability for constructive ends or for selfish purposes. JMO, YMMV (your mileage may vary), and all that good stuff. :)

Emiac	09 Sep 2004
Isn't reading tarot challenging god in some way? Since that you can see the future and predict things, many hardcore christians may think of it as a bit rebellious because supposedly everything is 'God's will'. I can go on about a million other christian stuff, but that's going off topic and some things I say might offend some people...

Eco74	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Emiac Isn't reading tarot challenging god in some way? Since that you can see the future and predict things, many hardcore christians may think of it as a bit rebellious because supposedly everything is 'God's will'. This is the old Free Will vs. Gods will conflict. Some christians believe that we need to surrender free will and the awareness we got by Adam and Eve eating from the tree in order to regain the innocent state needed to enter heaven come time for judgement day. I feel that we had free will even before this, simply because if we did not, God intended for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree and only faked his anger since it was his original plan all along. As amusing as this might have been for him had he been of that pursuasion I don't think he was quite so eager to get something to vendict.. So free will is present and we can see signs everywhere stating that something is afoot and we may need to keep our eyes open and be on the lookout for something (be it happiness, hurt or anything inbetween). Wether we use Tarotcards for this or look up daily passages in the bible for daily guidance is of less importance in my mind.. As long as we live well, with the good of all in mind and with a kind thought to our fellow man (and woman) with simply the good of all in mind and not the reward before our eyes, we should all be well, in life aswell as whatever afterlife will be presented to us.

Jeanette	09 Sep 2004
I don't see how using tarot cards to try and see what trends affect the future is any more challenging to God than, say, meteorologists attempting to predict the future by studying weather patterns. Or people who do studies to predict consumer buying habits, or engineers who do studies to predict growth in communities so they know how to lay out streets and public services. Not a whole lot of difference in the prediction department, just the tools used I guess!

Barbwra	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Jeanette I don't see how using tarot cards to try and see what trends affect the future is any more challenging to God than, say, meteorologists attempting to predict the future by studying weather patterns. Or people who do studies to predict consumer buying habits, or engineers who do studies to predict growth in communities so they know how to lay out streets and public services. Not a whole lot of difference in the prediction department, just the tools used I guess! Amen to that!

Nevada	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Emiac Isn't reading tarot challenging god in some way? I don't see how anyone is challenging God by using a talent or ability to help others. Isn't intuition a god-given ability? Don't we have free will? People are given choices of how to use our gifts. I've always thought that when we fail to use our gifts in constructive ways, that's when we're challenging the Spirit that gave us those gifts. If someone gives you a gift that you never acknowledge or use, what are you telling them? Nevada

Barbwra	09 Sep 2004
I happen to agree with Nevada and everyone who is on the positive side of this discussion. I don't mind if others look at this differently. That is their right. What concerns me, though, is anyone trying to judge others or tell them what is right and wrong according to his or her own beliefs. I don't mean to imply that anyone on this forum is doing that - we are questioning, and that is good. But I have found "unenlightened" people who try to foist their opinions on others. In fact, I am living in the South, and I have learned to be very careful of what I say to people regarding the tarot. I don't think anyone should have to justify reading the tarot or anything else, as long as they have good intentions and do not hurt anyone.

shelikes2read	09 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Nevada I don't see how anyone is challenging God by using a talent or ability to help others. Isn't intuition a god-given ability? Don't we have free will? People are given choices of how to use our gifts. I've always thought that when we fail to use our gifts in constructive ways, that's when we're challenging the Spirit that gave us those gifts. If someone gives you a gift that you never acknowledge or use, what are you telling them? Nevada Exactly, IMO. I'm FAR from being the be-all and the end-all of the psychic world, but darn it, I DO have intuition and I DO believe that God's the one that gave that to me in the first place. I also believe that with that gift comes a *responsibility* not only to use it, but to use it for the right reasons. Those "right reasons" do NOT include self-glorification, swindling other people, prying where I have absolutely no right to (attempt to) look, and about ten billion other motives that all boil down to selfishness, greed, and/or conceit. Anybody who's doing that with ANY of their abilities is misusing the gifts they were given. It doesn't matter if they're performing a phony "reading" of some sort, using their math skills to help someone cheat on their taxes, using their creative ability to create harmful lies, etc. IMO, if anyone wants to "challenge God", using ANY of the gifts God gave them for underhanded reasons is a darn good way to do it. On the other hand, I can't imagine how anyone who uses their God-given gifts to HELP people could be doing something that's an affront to God. Even when those gifts include the ability to read Tarot cards, using intuition, etc. In the New Testament of the Bible, it's said that "No one lights a lamp and then hides it under a bushel basket". If I reject or suppress gifts like intuition, the ability to read cards, etc, then to me it's like hiding a lamp under a bushel basket... pointless. Plus, as Nevada said, it does no honor to the One who *gave* us the gift in the first place to suppress it. JMO, YMMV (your mileage may vary) and all that good stuff.

Rain	09 Sep 2004
This is the exact reason as to why I don't go to church! A Christian is anyone who beleives and follows the teachings of Christ. Tarot is a form of communication between you and a higher "force". For me, it's communicating with my spirit guide (who is obviously there to help) If it's used beneficially, to help you, to guide you, to make wise decisions, etc etc...then it's applying some of the teachings of Christ. It helps you grow mentally, and more important...SPIRITUALLY! How can it be sinful? People fear what they don't understand...If I were you, which I'm not...I'd probably say some un christian like things to your friend. The only way tarot could ever be sinful is if it were used for wrongdoing...which in your case...I'm hoping it's not. The only problem I encounter when using tarot is that just as it is used to communicate with my guardian angel...it could also open a portal for evil, mischeivious, or bad spirits. That's where you have to follow your intuition and learn to dicipher right from wrong in interpreting the cards. It was hard for me at first, but I got the hang of it

Umbrae	19 Sep 2004
Anybody who ever disparages you for being a Christian, and reading needs to have a Bible lesson. Follow along…. Take their bible out of their hands. Open it to Romans, ask them, “Who wrote the Book of Romans?” “Paul.” “Is it Christian? Do the contents reflect true Christianity?” “Why of course!” Open Romans to Chapter 12. Hand their Bible back to them and ask them to begin reading, starting at verse 3. Have them stop at verse 7 or 8. Ask them to discuss verse 6 in detail. This is especially effective if you use a NIV. King James is deliberately vague. But to paraphrase – We each use the gifts given. And if your gift is to prophesize – than you should not be turning your back on God’s gift. The following verse will of course admonish them to stop ministering….

Jeanette	19 Sep 2004
Oh, Umbrae, you have really given me a verse to study this week! I went right to my NIV study bible and there it was, plain as day. Thank you so much for the "scripture lesson." It is and will remain invaluable whenever this topic comes up for discussion (especially where I live, Lancaster Co., PA, inhabited by Old-Order Amish, Mennonite, Brethren, and all sorts of plain-clothed religious sects and christian fundamentalists). Why does christianity have to be such a sticking point for some people? I can believe in Christ and still be a good tarot reader, and I think my belief in Christ might even make me a better tarot reader if I depend on God-given grace to help me.

TheLovers2	21 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Jeanette Oh Why does christianity have to be such a sticking point for some people? I can believe in Christ and still be a good tarot reader, and I think my belief in Christ might even make me a better tarot reader if I depend on God-given grace to help me. Jeanette: THANK YOU. My sentiments exactly!! Umbrae: I'll have to look up those scriptures to see exactly what you're speaking of in the book of Romans. TL2 :TLOVE

sarahbellum	22 Sep 2004
I know from my own experience how difficult it can be to shake the feeling that a good Christian can't also be interested in Tarot. Lots of people have given some wonderful advice here. An issue I have noticed myself is this: One of the characteristics of belonging to to a particular religion is that you share a certain "culture" with the other members. You have certain phrases and habits of thought in common; you learn over time what to say and do in particular circumstances. There's nothing wrong with that--any time a group of people get together for a particular purpose, this happens. But my point is, in many (probably most) Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) groups, there is a kind of antipathy to any of the practices of paganism. It's part of the culture. And most would consider Tarot to be a pagan practice. Practicing Tarot, at least in the minds of most members, jeopardizes that cohesive identity that most religious groups have spent centuries building. They are not to blame--it's just human nature to think that way, in my belief. Here's where it gets sticky, at least for me: if I decided to remain a member of the church group and still pursue my interest in Tarot, I would automatically set myself apart, even if nobody in the group knew about it. In my own case that really gave me problems. If I told other people in the church about my interest, I felt a little ostracized, and like I was an outsider. If I didn't tell anyone, I felt sneaky. My solution was to find a church that has a tradition of placing a high value on tolerance and letting people follow their own religious and spiritual paths. I might well have decided instead to learn to live with the feeling of sneakiness, or brave being made an outsider by others, but this solution works for me. (Partly because I didn't have strong connectins at the old church--if I had, I might have decided differently.) Now I feel perfectly free to read the Bible and then the cards, with no feeling that I am doing something wrong, and I even feel okay talking openly about ALL my spiritual practices, from the statue of Kuan Yin on my kitchen windowsill to the cross around my neck.

Nevada	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by I am a Christian and I've been studing Wicca and now Tarot. My mom really doesn't like me having a mind of my own and straying from the path she's known all her life--being a Christian. But she knows I gotta do my own thing and I think she respects that. I'm not going to give up what I love to make her happy. No one should. :) Now the rest of my family is a different story. lol. They're even worse. TTiana's post reminds me of the very thing that drew me away from the teachings of a particular church. I could no longer limit my explorations of spirituality to one creed. Is there a good reason for a church to attempt to limit members' knowledge and understanding? It might keep people from leaving altogether, if they can be allowed to fully understand other religious perspectives without being made to feel sinful. I've always suspected the limitations are fear based, and I find that sad. Nevada

Barbwra	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Nevada TTiana's post reminds me of the very thing that drew me away from the teachings of a particular church. I could no longer limit my explorations of spirituality to one creed. Is there a good reason for a church to attempt to limit members' knowledge and understanding? It might keep people from leaving altogether, if they can be allowed to fully understand other religious perspectives without being made to feel sinful. I've always suspected the limitations are fear based, and I find that sad. Nevada I totally agree, and I might add I think it's also a matter of control and power. This has pretty much turned me off to organized religion in general. Barbara

TheLovers2	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by sarahbellum I know from my own experience how difficult it can be to shake the feeling that a good Christian can't also be interested in Tarot. Lots of people have given some wonderful advice here. An issue I have noticed myself is this: One of the characteristics of belonging to to a particular religion is that you share a certain "culture" with the other members. You have certain phrases and habits of thought in common; you learn over time what to say and do in particular circumstances. There's nothing wrong with that--any time a group of people get together for a particular purpose, this happens. But my point is, in many (probably most) Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) groups, there is a kind of antipathy to any of the practices of paganism. It's part of the culture. And most would consider Tarot to be a pagan practice. Practicing Tarot, at least in the minds of most members, jeopardizes that cohesive identity that most religious groups have spent centuries building. They are not to blame--it's just human nature to think that way, in my belief. ********************************************** sarahbellum: I sooo identify with what you've said. Since I began Tarot, I have had to STAND strong on my "beliefs," against the voices of those who I know would vehemently (not lightly) oppose my interest. When I say "voices," I don't mean so much actual comments, though there have been some, but, I was careful and wary of sharing my interest with the brethren, as I know already what those comments would be and the inevitable onslaught of judgmental naysayers. I already know what they think, so I don't go there with them. When I have chosen to share my interest with "certain" Christians that I am close to, they have disapproved. So, the "voices," I speak of are just the overall influence of having been privy to the "misunderstandings and condemnation," of pagan practices and Tarot, which I don't believe to be a pagan practice. Regardless, of it's origins, it is to me like beauty -- "in the eye of the beholder." The individual, IMO determines what Tarot will or will not be to them. You spoke of the "culture, habits, certain phrases," inherent in the Christian community and I can relate; but, I do not wish the "culture," to dictate to me or control me. That is something I have fought having a problem with in the past. Before, I didn't see it so much as "controlling behaviour," because so much of what we share as Chrisitans I agree with; but, I realize that although I seek to be true to myself regarding everything in my life, including my Christian faith, that I have let some things slip through the cracks. There were certain things I simply made excuses for or acquiesced to because I wanted to respect the office of the ministry. Since, for instance, I had no interest in Tarot at the time, it was easy for me to just go along with what I had heard. When I decided for myself, to check into Tarot, that all changed. Another point I want to make is that I don't want to let them off so easily. You know, when you say that "they are not to blame, it's just human nature to think that way." Well, if we tell them we want to do this thing or that, whatever it might be and it does not meet with "their approval," then they don't give a darn about human nature because so much of what is a result of human nature is frowned upon. Nooo, we're supposed to be super-spiritual and above or beyond mere human nature. Human nature is considered to be base, earthly, sensual and something to keep in check -- better watch out for that "human nature." Therefore, since I know this to be the case, I am not willing to excuse their bias and judgements because of "human nature," because they are not willing to do the same. I have seen way too much of "do as I say, not as I do." People wishing to make others accountable to (basically, the Law) when they themselves are not willing to be accountable to it. Legalism is a problem. I experienced being a kind of outsider when I became a Christian (born again), in the beginning, especially and I had to deal with that. Fine. It was a choice I wanted to make and still make. It is somehow ironic to me that I am now once again taking a strong stand to do something that is shunned, but, now within this family to which I belong. However, my reason for becoming a Christian has more to do with my relationship with Christ than with the people. Don't get me wrong, I love the people, but, when they are IMO overstepping boundaries, being controlling, judgemental, then I take issue with that. People will go on disappointing and being disappointed until Christ returns. My faith and decisions cannot be based on what others think and do. quote: ______________________________________________ Here's where it gets sticky, at least for me: if I decided to remain a member of the church group and still pursue my interest in Tarot, I would automatically set myself apart, even if nobody in the group knew about it. In my own case that really gave me problems. If I told other people in the church about my interest, I felt a little ostracized, and like I was an outsider. If I didn't tell anyone, I felt sneaky. *********************************************** I understand. :) My choice is NOT to tell them. I consider it none of their business and especially since I know they will not understand. It will be too tempting for them to point the finger and give the typical knee-jerk response, sometimes, simply repeating what they have been told, with no investigation of the matter, whatsoever. HOWEVER, they will not share what is in their closet or their lives that they don't want anyone to know about, for the same reason. They, themselves, don't want to be judged "for the things they allow." ;) Personally, as to setting myself apart even if they don't know, well, I had better get used to it, because it seems that I have been moving to the beat of my own drummer all of my life. I am always a bit different regardless of the group I am associated with. The more you are true to yourself, the more different you will become. It stands to reason because no one else can be YOU. I don't do cliques OF ANY TYPE, as I have seen good, interesting people ostracized by too many of them, a particular snobbery and an unwillingness of the people involved to think for themselves and insert a voice or behavior that is different from the others. It's interesting to me that you say if you don't tell them, you "feel sneaky." Well, that is of course, up to you. But, I don't know why you should feel sneaky. You have every right to make the choices in life that you deem appropriate for you. They will never be able to get into your shoes and walk around for you, take you where you need to go, make a life for you. Therefore, since these are things you must do for yourself, decisions everyday you must make for yourself, why would you give them that kind of power. Now, I understand that brothers and sisters in Christ, can be a help, comfort; we can all still learn from each other, but, that's just it. They seem to forget that WE ARE ALL still learning. My suggestion - and believe me, that is all it is -- is work it out with your Lord. Period. It's first and foremost all about you and Him and . . . then . . . the body of Christ. Also, does "feeling sneaky," imply that you have guilt about the Tarot? Just a question? :) quote: _____________________________________________ My solution was to find a church that has a tradition of placing a high value on tolerance and letting people follow their own religious and spiritual paths. I might well have decided instead to learn to live with the feeling of sneakiness, or brave being made an outsider by others, but this solution works for me. (Partly because I didn't have strong connectins at the old church--if I had, I might have decided differently.) Now I feel perfectly free to read the Bible and then the cards, with no feeling that I am doing something wrong, and I even feel okay talking openly about ALL my spiritual practices, from the statue of Kuan Yin on my kitchen windowsill to the cross around my neck. Ok. I forgot about this part. So, you did have the "feeling," that you were doing something wrong. However, it didn't seem to be born of you, so much as put on you by others. I am glad to know that in the way that works best for you, you have resolved your conflict. You have reconciled both your love for Tarot and your love for Christianity. Good and Amen!!! :) I love Christ, I love Tarot and I fiercely protect my love for both. I am passionate about what/who I love. I am not going to have a bunch of people WHO ARE NOT ME decide these things, no matter how well-meaning they might be. I am jumping off of my soapbox now. BTW, what type of church, if you don't mind sharing, do you belong to now? Thank you for your post. :) TL2 :TLOVE

sarahbellum	22 Sep 2004
>>BTW, what type of church, if you don't mind sharing, do you belong to now? << TL2--I have started going to a Unitarian church where a lot of the members identify themselves as Unitarian Christians. When one of the members told me that she changes her religion every couple of months but keeps going to the same Unitarian church because no matter what she currently believes, she feels welcome, I knew I had found the right place. Besides, the church is gorgeous--huge windows overlooking a grove of oaks :-) I think I felt sneaky while going to my old church not so much because I felt guilty, but because I felt as though I had a secret (which I did). It wasn't just the Tarot issue, it was also that I couldn't believe that God pays more attention to well you obey the rules than to what is in your heart. And frankly I got tired of hearing words like "Lord" and "servant" and "God-fearing" and even "Father." I know it's trite but I'd just as soon limit the feudalism in my life to the court cards, thank you very much. Another issue is that I suddenly realized that I was bored stiff, and it struck me that there is something very wrong when worshipping God is boring! Really, though, what are the mainstream churches THINKING of? Of course they're losing members! The liturgy is so dull it would give a saint narcolepsy! I just have to say this--I know a lot of Christian churchgoers can be intolerant, but I once wore a necklace of an Orthodox icon of the Virgin to a solstice celebration by a group of pagans, and just about had my throat ripped out. Phew! That's one reason why I say most groups of people tend to ostracize anyone who doesn't fit in with their culture. I think it actually serves a purpose, like team loyalty (try wearing a Yankees shirt to a Red Sox game). It helps the group coalesce into a unit and helps the members define themselves. I am trying to get away from that whole "those other people are so awful" habit that I used to do so much of. We are all, no matter what our religious/spiritual ideas are, just trying to not die of fright in this scary universe, I think. Or, as a dear friend of mine used to say, "Isn't amazing what people have to do to feel okay inside themselves."

TheLovers2	23 Sep 2004
sarahbellum: The difference is that I do expect people to be more tolerant of members of their own group. Of course, it would be good to have tolerance and show grace to people outside your "circle," as well, but, what excuse do people have for heavily persecuting their own. Besides, I don't claim to know the tenets of wicca or certain pagan beliefs, but, I do know the tenets of Christianity and what we are "supposed" to be about and what Jesus teaches. A show of love and grace among them. It's more like going to a Red Sox game when you ARE a Red Sox fan and getting dumped on. I don't know. It's hard to compare what I'm speaking of with baseball, but, I understand your point. I spoke strongly about it, not because I have animosity towards the Christians who would behave in some of the ways I've mentioned, but, simply because I disagree with the double standards. I still love them and they are not horrible people or anything; I just don't agree with their approach sometimes. The Unitarian church sounds interesting. Of course, I've heard of it, but, I can't say that I remember what they believe, etc. Again, I'm glad that you have found a place that suits you. I am so glad that Threads like this are available for like-minded people to ponder because so many Christians into Tarot have to deal with these challenges. AT - It's a good thing! :) TL2 :TLOVE

acolyte	23 Sep 2004
This is an interesting thread but i will admit that i have not been following it all through.But i was looking at the state of the Church today and if you watch TBN you will hear many false prophecies being shared ie Benny Hinn once said that fire would consume all homosexuals( has not happened as far as i know).But they are still tolerated even though the bible says we should turn away from false prophets. Anyway compare that too tarot readers lemme speak for myself.I have only started like 3 months ago but with the few readings I have done i usually get details of things the person has not told me like situations and i also get credible advice for them from the cards.Unlike some of these "prophets" who give false teachings and then ask for money from viewers.Seems it is easier to tolerate what is wrrong within you and shun what is different outside you.

Macavity	23 Sep 2004
I suspect it matters little whether Tarot is intrinsically(?) Christian or not. But I do imagine it matters whether the particular Christian group you are dealing with sees it as e.g. a permissable Christian activity? I think it's interesting how Tarot still seems to have a slightly "bad rap" even when previaling trends are, as here, firmly towards the secular. Probably something to do with the "living memory" concept - That fundamental attitudes only change over a timescale of 200 years or so... I fear hopefuls may have a long wait? ;) Macavity

Nevada	23 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by sarahbellum Another issue is that I suddenly realized that I was bored stiff, and it struck me that there is something very wrong when worshipping God is boring! Exactly! You know, when my writing turns out boring, I realize it's because I'm not being true to myself, not being real or honest. It's when I'm holding back something that needs to be said. Quote: Originally posted by sarahbellum I just have to say this--I know a lot of Christian churchgoers can be intolerant, but I once wore a necklace of an Orthodox icon of the Virgin to a solstice celebration by a group of pagans, and just about had my throat ripped out. Phew! That's one reason why I say most groups of people tend to ostracize anyone who doesn't fit in with their culture. True, and this is what I detest so much about belonging to any group. I miss the group dynamic, and the feeling of belonging, but I don't understand why religion and intolerance so often have to go hand in hand. It begins with "we're right, so everyone else is wrong," and just gets worse from there on. There's no excuse for it (the intolerance) among any people who consider themselves spiritual. Nevada

Umbrae	23 Sep 2004
To continue from a prior point I made (is this off topic?)... Numbers 11:26 – 29 are further Bible passages that defend our prophesizing. And hey…if Moses defends us – that’s hard to argue with. Edited to add: in the lower chapel gift stand of Sainte-Chapelle (Ile de la Cité) they sell Tarot Cards. So like hey, once again…Tarot can be Christian.

Moongold	25 Sep 2004
This is quite an old thread isn't it? Just shows that some questions wil always be around. I am not a Christian now although I was brought up a Catholic and nearly entered religious life, as did my father as a young man. He studed for the priesthood for some time Religion was spoiled for me by the politics of the Church but I still feel very much at peace in quiet Catholic Churches. The impact of my childhood and adolescent beliefs is still strong. I am curious about what Christianity may have been like without the Church. I think it would be possible to be Christian without the Church. The idea of community is attractive though and this is another of the things that I remember with poignancy from my childhood. I find Meditations on the Tarot still breathtaking and am proceeding through it very slowly. I stopped posting about it because each time I read a chapter something else stands out. It is something difficult to put into words. Here is a link to a Christianity and Tarot website that you might find interesting: http://users.erols.com/bcccsbs/esoterica/tarot.htm Many blessings ~ Moongold

shelikes2read	25 Sep 2004
[[religion was spoiled for me by the politics of the church but i still feel very much at peace in quiet catholic churches. the impact of my childhood and adolescent beliefs is still strong. i am curious about what christianity may have been like without the church. i think it would be possible to be christian without the church. the idea of community is attractive though and this is another of the things that i remember with poignancy from my childhood.]] Unfortunately, human nature is the same no matter where or when you examine it. I hate the politicking nonsense that goes on, too. Not that it's appropriate to be underhanded and backbiting ANYwhere, but it's even LESS appropriate when one does so as part of their affiliation with a particular faith. But I don't think there's even one organized religion that's exempt from this behavior, because human nature across the centuries and across cultures is pretty consistent. Some people are kind, honest, and generous, and others are all about getting one over on everyone else. And you'll find plenty of both those sorts of people, whether you examine the membership of any organized religion or choose an organization out in the secular world. I can see how the backbiting and politicking would put people off from organized religion. But for me, organized religion is a tool to help me build a relationship with my Maker. (I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that I'm Catholic, and have been all my life.) So what's important to me isn't what other people do... it's what *I* do and how I'm living up to my beliefs (or how I'm falling short and need to make changes in my life to get back on track). And as for the people who are using their involvement in their particular religion as a way to glorify themselves instead of their Maker, well... that's something THEY have to answer for, if they don't realize that they're on the wrong track and change what they're doing. To me, it doesn't invalidate the organization itself if some of its members are falling short of what they should be doing. For me, the community aspect of organized faith, plus the existence of doctrines that are supposed to serve as road maps that we can follow to deepen our relationship with our Maker, are assets that outweigh the imperfections of the humans that make up the religion's membership. It makes life a lot easier to already have those guidelines to follow, or at least examine, than it'd be if we had to start completely from scratch and figure the whole thing out ourselves. JMO, YMMV (your mileage may vary), and all that good stuff. :)

Nevada	25 Sep 2004
What I miss most about church is the singing. Not a choir singing, but the whole congregation singing together. It was a supremely energizing experience. Nevada

Shade	24 Dec 2004
Ok I need some help, a debate is raging on another forum about Christians and tarot, I know some people mentioned here that the Old Testament mentions the priests doing divination with lots. Could anyone give me a reference for that? Does anyone know what verse states this. Also what is the context of this information. By that I mean if I just say on the board "the Israelites did divination with lots" the answer will most likely be "They always did things God said not to do." It would help if I could prove the context made it clear tat it was ok for them to be doing this.

jmd	24 Dec 2004
In terms of Christianity and divination, I would certainly highlight the very passages from Romans 12:3-8 pointed to by Umbrae above (in post 102). With regards to Tarot and Christianity, there are a few other threads that may be worthwhile to also browse through: So confused! Bible and Divination????? ; Tarot vs Christianity ; Christian / Catholic Tarot Reader (especially useful if you're after quotes from the Old Testament, which Dark Inquisitor gives a list of).

wandking	24 Dec 2004
S. L. Mathers, Dr. William Wynn Westcott and Dr W. R. Woodman, represent three important Tarot sources that left us a legacy of writings steeped in Christian Dogma and they founded the Golden Dawn ... Even Crowley made massive Christian referances in print. In fact, one of the first books on Tarot was written by Court De Geblin, a prominant Protestant clergyman. Although Tarot isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible, "divination" appears several times. When read in context one of my favorite passages that deals with divination kinda puts it in perspective. Leviticus 26 'You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor shall you practice divination or soothsaying. 27 You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. I suspect if I didn't read Tarot at all, someone would judge me for shaving or eating rare steaks. Some of the best Tarot readers I've ever met were also some of the best 24/7 practicing Christians.

Shade	25 Dec 2004
Tank you for helping.... this is a tough group to get through to. They are uber-fundamentalist Christians. I explained that the tarot progressed mostly at the hands of Christians. They told me taht those people called themselves christians but weren't really Christians. This is a very convenient argument they often employ; whenever a Christian does something nuts they say that person isn't a real christian they just claim to be. If you bring up the Crusdades they claim those were done by people who claimed to be Christians but really weren't. Apparently there are very few "real" Christians if you believe them. So it's hard to make a case for tarot... they are especially distrustful of my arguments because I'm Wiccan.

Barbwra	25 Dec 2004
Shade, it seems to me from your description that this group is highly un-enlightened. I'm not sure a reasonable, enlightened person like yourself would be able to convince a group of what seems like closed-minded, opinionated, excuse-making members who obviously are not open to seeing things any way other than they already do that there are other ways to view things. They are convinced they are right and that is that. As a matter of fact, people like that scare the bejeebers out of me, because they can rationalize any kind of behavior against those they deem derserving of it or in some way are in their opinion beneath themselves. This does not promote love, acceptance, or any other "good will" towards others.

HudsonGray	25 Dec 2004
So, they themselves are not Christian in the sense of the word. Yes, bravo Barbwra, though they themselves would never consider that thought for a moment. Shade, do you need that kind of hassle on the other board? People who keep themselves in ignorance or in fear never listen to constructive discussions or debate a point honestly. Their minds are too closed.

Barbwra	25 Dec 2004
Ba'al, amen to that!

wandking	25 Dec 2004
Path 21: The World: In the same manner, The Empress symbolized creation of the Earth in the physical sense, with a three, this twenty-first path, which reduces to three shows completion of the spirit and creation of a new domain. This realm, ruled over by humanity, provides numerous similarities to the previous spiritual plane of Microprosopus, where Elohim created the concepts necessary for existence of life on the physical plane of Macroprosopus. After taking each path of the Fool to higher ascendance, humankind, made in the likeness of God finally creates life. This statement does not refer to the photocopy version of a cloned sheep, which simply represents replicating existing life but instead describes a life form that never existed previously, which meets most of the criteria ascribed to a true living organism. Like God, humans try creating life in their own image. A modern leading cosmologist, Stephen Hawking said, “I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image.” Hawking retains a position once held by Sir Isaac Newton as the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge University. Like Newton and Einstein, Hawking is a cosmologist who believes in God. Cosmology seeks to unravel creation of the cosmos and it appears that once truly great minds begin to fathom the broad scope of universal creation, a supreme deity enters the picture. At a level where science must deal with profound aspects of existence, there is little need to reconcile religious and scientific disciplines. Frankly, the most glaring need to reconcile disciplines exists within religion itself. In an ironic twist, science tends to end wars the hard way while religions, which generally center on concepts of peace, tolerance and forgiveness, continue to prevail as the single most common reason for all wars. Exactly like the choice shown by The Fool in the first trilogy, humanity arrives at a crossroads to Divine completion on this final path of human ascendance. Will we persist in recreating Divinity in a human image? If humankind continues to envision a deity that even tolerates the death and destruction of war or indiscriminate rape of the natural resources of the world, then we must realize both man and woman remain chained on the fifteenth path. We must break the chains of The Devil, which represent ignorance and fear. For humanity to ascend beyond this level, it must take responsibility for foolish choices instead of attributing them to a deity. If we worship a divine being that accepts intolerance, prejudice and hatred of those who believe differently, then we create Hell on this twenty-first path not Heaven. Whether we call it Nirvana, Heaven or a perfect mental state of Bliss matters little. This is the final path. Humankind demonstrates amazing diversity in cultural and religious beliefs. Is it not conceivable that Elohim manifests to each of us in His and Her own way? Perhaps the religious fundamentalists are correct and the deity they worship is the one true God. Even if they are wrong, at least their deity blesses flags of wrath in battle, thus relieving them of any responsibility for actions. We have other choices as this path transitions back into The Fool. Now is the time to take a higher road and realize that if religion serves humanity, it serves the same true God and Goddess. Only then can we unshackle humanity from ignorance and fear, which chains us to pathetically foolish paths.

Shade	25 Dec 2004
A little bit of background. The board is run by a ministry of "ex-witches" who want to spread the word about the dangers of teh occult. Several pagans post on the board, some just to keep communicaton flow and others to challenge some of the assertions they make about modern magic. I have asked myself again and again if I should continue to post there, it just bothers me I guess.

Nevada	26 Dec 2004
Shade wrote: I explained that the tarot progressed mostly at the hands of Christians. They told me taht those people called themselves christians but weren't really Christians. This is a very convenient argument they often employ; whenever a Christian does something nuts they say that person isn't a real christian they just claim to be. If you bring up the Crusdades they claim those were done by people who claimed to be Christians but really weren't. Apparently there are very few "real" Christians if you believe them. Do they realize how judgemental they're being? Surely they've read in the Bible how Jesus taught not to judge others, and to examine oneself first? It seems to me Christianity (or any religion) is something that resides in the heart and can't be judged by other people.

Diana	26 Dec 2004
Nevada wrote: Do they realize how judgemental they're being? Surely they've read in the Bible how Jesus taught not to judge others, and to examine oneself first? It seems to me Christianity (or any religion) is something that resides in the heart and can't be judged by other people. There have never been so many people massacred, killed and maligned in any other religion. The "love your neighbour as yourself" was forgotten very quickly. The history of Christianity is a very bloody one. :(

Barbwra	26 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: There have never been so many people massacred, killed and maligned in any other religion. The "love your neighbour as yourself" was forgotten very quickly. The history of Christianity is a very bloody one. :( That's what's so scary about this. People who believe that whatever they do God is on their side think they can do whatever they want.

Nevada	26 Dec 2004
Barbwra wrote: That's what's so scary about this. People who believe that whatever they do God is on their side think they can do whatever they want. You're right. It's scary when any group of people decides it's up to them to tell others how they should live, believe, think--whatever. It starts in small ways, like a planned community where a kid can't leave his basketball hoop in the driveway overnight, and grows to dangerous proportions.

Diana	26 Dec 2004
Oh well, people who don't believe God is on their side will also do terrible things. We're getting off-topic here, I think. Actually, I am not 100% certain that someone who is truly a Christian can completely reconcile Tarot with their religion. I used to think they could, but now I'm not so sure. I think a Christian communicates differently with God and their Saviour.... I suppose it depends what one is using Tarot for? The Bible is indeed full of divination. But it is in the Old Testament, not the New Testament. But then again, I'm not a Christian so what would I know....

jmd	26 Dec 2004
In terms of Divination and Christianity, Umbrae referred to the most important support earlier in this thread. To my way of thinking, there is nothing that bars a Christian from using or working with Tarot - it does, of course, partly depend on the form of Christianity one adopts, as I cannot see bigots doing or using any item or engaging in any activity that isn't explicitly supported by their own preferred translation of the Bible (whether it be dancing or flying in aeroplanes... with the famous line: 'if God had wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings!'). That people have the ability think, to reflect, to invent, to create, to draw, to beautify, to reflect in symbolic and allegorical ways the spiritual, may all of course be derided by some bigots. Yet this is not a reflection of Christianity, or of their claimed form of it - which reminds me more of Orwellian Newspeak Christianity, in which 2+2 may indeed only equal that which Big Brother determines.

NightWing	27 Dec 2004
You make several good points, jmd. I would have commented at greater length, but THAT effort got blown into cyberspace, and I'm afraid my time/energy does not permit me to start all over again. Suffice it to say for the moment that (a) I'm not convinced there is anything incompatible between mainline Christianity and Tarot, and (b) you can always find some strange little group that thinks they have a monopoly on faith, that condemns one thing or another, whether it be wine, dancing, women voting, or ending slavery. What is important to remember is that they do not represent the great majority of Christians at the beginning of the 21st century, who are generally more tolerant of differences, and more open to innovation, than previous generations. In general agreement, -NightWing

Barbwra	27 Dec 2004
It becomes too complicated to me when I try to follow paragraph and verse of quotes from this testament or that, since there are contradictions and misinterpretations galore. I believe, for what it's worth, that as long as you are not hurting anyone or attempting to gain power over them then it is OK to proceed with whatever it is you are doing. Unless you want to be a leader and attract followers, then it is not necessary to explain yourself to people who disagree with you. Who is to say they are right and you are wrong or vice versa? I think those who quote scripture to answer that question should remember that the Bible was written by men, many with an agenda of their own. Those who unquestioningly accept the Bible as the word of God should also be aware that there are many out there who think other "words of God" are the right ones and use them to justify jihad, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witchhunts, and on and on. I realize that we have to live in this world and many times people we care about take issue with what we are doing. That is unfortunate. When I lived in the Northeast I could talk about doing Tarot all the time with no repercussions. Now that I am living in a Southern state, I have learned to be much more cautious about telling people.

wandking	27 Dec 2004
LOL!!! you should have learned Tarot in MA and then moved into the Bible-belt of Alabama, like me!

Barbwra	27 Dec 2004
Yes, MA -> AL beats NJ -> NC by a bit!

wandking	27 Dec 2004
I've spent a little time in NC, it's not so bad... down here if I mention Tarot to the drunkest wildest gal in the bar she finally becomes religious and it's like strike three I'm out. In MA people, including good readers, sought me out for my grasp of meanings... true culture shock! I miss cape cod but at least I live way out in the country down here... still, I miss the cape, I lived on Native Am. holy ground, right at Onset Beach up there.

Barbwra	27 Dec 2004
While some places in general may be worse than others in terms of tolerance and acceptance of others' beliefs, I think there are places everywhere, or should I say people everywhere, even in the Northeast, where tarot, and I guess any kind of divination, is considered demonology.

TheLovers2	27 Dec 2004
Barbwra wrote: While some places in general may be worse than others in terms of tolerance and acceptance of others' beliefs, I think there are places everywhere, or should I say people everywhere, even in the Northeast, where tarot, and I guess any kind of divination, is considered demonology. I just don't understand that at all! Non-Christians and professing Christians (some) feel that way, but, I just don't get it. Most, if not all of the scriptures used to support this attitude are in the Old Testament and when you talk to a Christian about many things/practices/attitudes/ways of life pertaining to the Old Testament, the general consensus as to why we don't do those things anymore and DON'T HAVE TO is because we are no longer under the Old Testament (Covenant/Agreement); we are now under the The New Testament (Covenant/Agreement) so we don't need to abide by or try to keep the Law. Also, there is scripture in the New Testament that states that we are under grace through Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of the Law (anyway) and if anyone should try to keep the Law(s) he must keep ALL of them. So, then living by the Law is an all or nothing thing. So, the Bible tells us that we have a "better Covenant established upon better promises." I concur. Well, in light of this, one must consider that if people are going to use the scriptures in the Old Testament to, in essence, condemn something then they themselves must live and abide by all of the commandments of the Old Testament (and there are heck of a lot of them) and not just pick and choose selectively this thing or that to concentrate upon. Over and over again this is what I see happening. As for divination and the reasons people were instructed not to do it or whatever, during that time, all I know is that the Tarot doesn't even have to be used for that purpose (it's up to the individual). It can be a great tool to charge up your creative juices and get those flowing and it's a lot of fun sometimes, in the most simple ways (in much the same way a book, movie, piece of music or art might be stimulating). Another thing is that I don't engage in communication with demons nor do I have any desire to. If others want to do that then that's up to them; I don't control what they do. BUT, that has nothing to do with me and my beliefs. What really gets me is some of the same people (once again, I know I've said this before) who make a big deal out of Tarot will not look at themselves in a mirror to see what "evil" they may be participating in or doing that has nothing to do with such things as Tarot. Darn it, an evil heart is an evil heart, regardless of whose it is! A heart that does not carry evil intent is just that -- a heart that is not evil. A heart that is compassionate, merciful, loving is just that and doing Tarot doesn't change it. A heart that isn't any of those things isn't and doing Tarot won't make it a good heart, either. Then there is grace (unmerited favor) that Christians rely on and had better rely on according to our beliefs and faith because not a single one of us is perfect or anywhere near it. Included in grace is forgiveness and the ability to grow, make mistakes if need be. There is no need to get under condemnation because you just might not have dotted every i and crossed every t - and the truth of it is that, of course, you haven't. Heavy judgemental attitudes and condemnation are waaayyy tooo convenient, I think; and how easy it is to quarterback from an arm chair. I have checked into the website mentioned by Shade and I look forward to posting there. I have read some of the testimonies of some of the people and I have no problem with them, HOWEVER, when it comes to Tarot and for me only Tarot, then I look forward to hearing their challenges re: what I believe to be true. We may agree on many things, but, when it comes to Tarot we won't. Many of them were involved in practices that I have nothing to do with anyway, and I don't personally feel that Tarot has to be considered part and parcel to all of these other things. For instance, if one of them was involved in Satanism and also among other practices happen to do Tarot that does not make the Tarot Satanic. Duh!! Too much assumption - leaving no room for the individual, the heart, grace, and afterall God is the Judge. Too many people want to usurp and just plain handle His Business for Him. Come on TL2, tell them what you REALLY think! :) Aaarrrgggghhh!!! :) TL2 :TLOVE

Barbwra	27 Dec 2004
I'm not sure what it is you don't get, but since you quoted me, I assume your remarks deal with that quote. All I'm saying is live and let live, as long as no one is in danger of ill treatment because he or she believes or doesn't believe something that others think should or shouldn't be believed. It's an individual choice and, crimes aside, no one is entitled to judge anyone, in my humble opinion. As another aside - and I really mean this as an aside - there are a lot of people, Christians and non - who believe in the Old Testament.

TheLovers2	27 Dec 2004
Barbwra wrote: I'm not sure what it is you don't get, but since you quoted me, I assume your remarks deal with that quote. All I'm saying is live and let live, as long as no one is in danger of ill treatment because he or she believes or doesn't believe something that others think should or shouldn't be believed. It's an individual choice and, crimes aside, no one is entitled to judge anyone, in my humble opinion. As another aside - and I really mean this as an aside - there are a lot of people, Christians and non - who believe in the Old Testament. Barbwra: "What I don't get" should have been clear in my very lengthy post. Perhaps, it wasn't. Anway, what I don't get is why people, in particular Christians, insist on attaching a demonic significance to the use of Tarot. You didn't understand that that was what I was saying? That confuses me, the post seems clear to me and it is certainly a "live and let live" approach that I am speaking of in it and I wholeheartedly disagree with those who would say that Tarot is demonic. As for people believing in the Old Testament. I never said that people don't. People believe and don't believe a lot of things and that is fine. That is life. I totally "believe" in the Old Testament, but, in my beliefs and understanding of the Bible and many Christians will concur (although not necessarily all because everyone does not agree with everyone re: the tenets/beliefs/doctrines/interpretations, etc., infinitum and I completely understand that) that there is a "distinction" between the Old and New Testaments. Barbwra, I am not taking issue with what you said and it seems to me that in your post you sound like you think I am and you seem a little defensive -- now, that I don't get. In many of my posts, I again and again and again state my opinions/feelings, but, say that people have to decide things for themselves. I've more or less said that in my prior post. I am not for people trying to control others. I'm not sure why you wanted to tell me that some people believe in the Old Testament. So? And? So do I. There isn't a thing wrong with believing in the Old Testament and that's my opinion. If someone said, "Out with the OT," then that would be their opinion. So be it. In my reference to the Old Testament, I was in the beginning of the post speaking of the scriptures that some people have used to support why they believe that divination is wrong/a sin, etc. I was saying that some of these same people will not adhere to other aspects of the Old Testament, etc. I don't know how you misunderstood me, but, these things happen. I have no interest in debating people believing/not believing the Old Testament. It doesn't matter to me. I simply give my take on a thing and listen to what others have to say and respect that they have the right to choose their views. I don't feel I have to agree with whomever and they don't have to agree with me. I would hope that we would remain respectful of each other, regardless. I am confident enough and I am not God and, therefore, don't want to say what others should believe nor do I want them "telling" me what I should believe. I have my opinions and that is that. As for my feelings about Tarot; I would like to post on that site that I mentioned in order to share my views and as I indicated I don't mind being challenged by the other Christians there re: their take on things as long as we respect each other's right to disagree. TL2 :TLOVE

spirit	27 Dec 2004
This is most likely one of the most controvesial (excuse the spelling if i got it wrong) topics of the moment - Does tartot make me less christian?? But personaly i think if u believe in god he is not going to say - YOU CAN NOT WORSHIP ME AND USE TAROT he must be open to other ways of exploring ones self and believes

TheLovers2	27 Dec 2004
spirit wrote: This is most likely one of the most controvesial (excuse the spelling if i got it wrong) topics of the moment - Does tartot make me less christian?? But personaly i think if u believe in god he is not going to say - YOU CAN NOT WORSHIP ME AND USE TAROT he must be open to other ways of exploring ones self and believes You know, Spirit, I agree, really. I so much think He looks on the heart of a person and I know in my life, in particular, nothing will ever replace Him. I did read that on one of the posts on this other Forum a concern is that a Christian would go to the cards for answers instead of God. Then, someone replied that they believed that God could use the Tarot as well, as a means of helping them to get answers or revelations on a thing. I didn't get the impression that they would cease to pray or listen for God's voice in other ways. They said this in the form of a question, like, "Well, couldn't God use the Tarot to speak to me? Couldn't that be God?" (paraphrasing) The other person simply replied, "It's not." Very definitively. My whole thing is how can this other person be so absolutely sure. I've read books, seen movies, talked with people who did not profess the same beliefs as me and felt that God was sending me a message; that He was talking to me through them. I mean, come on. To me, God will use what He chooses to use and will not cease to work with us. I see Him as capable (duh!) and since His people are all over the place doing all sorts of things in a myriad of ways - well, hey, He's pretty versatile. :D I believe He will meet you where you're at. To me, it's all about LOVE; His love for us, our love for Him and our love for each other. I'd have to look it up, but, somewhere in the Bible, God used a donkey to communicate with a man. So many of us say that God is BIG, omnipotent, and then we tend to limit Him in terms of how He can work with us and through us. My feelings are that we just don't know it all. We are all still learning. :) TL2 :TLOVE

spirit	27 Dec 2004
PErsonaly i donot believe in "GOD" i do not believe in 1 BEING creating the world. Really dont want to get into religion as i will be on here for hours (well weeks) voicing my oppinion. But its up to u isnt it whether u believe or not. "GOD" is not going to say u cant do this or u cant do that coz if there is a god would he have alowed the creation of the so called "DEVIL CARDS" if he did not want them to be used????

jmd	28 Dec 2004
The creation of an Evil being is not inconsistent with a monotheistic conception of God as omnipotent creator as understood by some Christians. Other Christians of course have various views of the deity, some of which are considered heretical by other Christians. The Christian Gnostics are a good example of this. The inclusion of a card termed 'Devil' does not in any way indicate that a Christian omnipotent God does not exist, nor does it indicate that he would have prevented such a card from being designed by people who have also been blessed with free will. Part of the critique by some Christians is rather precisely that as we have free will, and as the exercise of this requires choices to be made, there will be numerous temptations along the way. For such a Christian, a legitimate question may be whether Tarot is a temptation to be resisted, whether it is a means by which to further one's Christian spirituality, or whether they are more akin to what may be considered other non-spirituality relevant products. It so turns out that many more people around me both have an interest in Tarot and walk Christian-oriented paths... but then again, I am not surrounded by closed-minded bigots.

TheLovers2	28 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: For such a Christian, a legitimate question may be whether Tarot is a temptation to be resisted, whether it is a means by which to further one's Christian spirituality, or whether they are more akin to what may be considered other non-spirituality relevant products. jmd: Yes, I think for some people that would be a legitimate question. I know there is a scripture that says something like, "all things are lawful for us, but, all things are not profitable." (I think it actually says expedient). On ATF, I do not bother to give chapter and verse, but, I certainly can find anything that I mention. It's just that, one I'm being lazy about it and two, I'm more relating my feelings in light of what I have come to understand during the years of my Christian walk. Some may feel that it should be resisted because, perhaps, they don't see anything majorly wrong with it, but, feel that it could lead to delving into other practices, going deeper and further away from Chrisitian tenets. I have absolutely no problem with someone being "concerned" about the use of Tarot; if they would just leave it at concern, voicing their opinion about it, and not try to dictate what one should or shouldn't do. Free will and the ability to make choices can be seriously undermined when they don't do that. "Concern," I have patience for. :) Spirit wrote: But its up to u isnt it whether u believe or not. Spirit: A quick comment. Yes, it is. Personally, I'm glad that I have reached a point in my "walk" where I don't feel the need to try to override or convince you to believe what I believe. (I assume you meant "believe in God.") However, the need/desire to do that is so strong in some Christians that therein lies the problem. It becomes less about sharing and more about overriding another person's will, which doesn't work anyway. But, I don't want to belabor a "believe in God/not believe in God" thing since that isn't what this Thread is about. TL2 :TLOVE

ElfantPup	28 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: To my way of thinking, there is nothing that bars a Christian from using or working with Tarot - it does, of course, partly depend on the form of Christianity one adopts, as I cannot see bigots doing or using any item or engaging in any activity that isn't explicitly supported by their own preferred translation of the Bible (whether it be dancing or flying in aeroplanes... with the famous line: 'if God had wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings!'). I have not read every post in this thread, but I've read many of them. I've learned a lot from this thread! I'm a Christian (Protestant, Progressive) and I've only recently become interested in Tarot. I see reading the cards as being similar to reading Bible verses and interpreting them in a way that applies to my life, but the cards to me are more mundane and personal (not to say that's true for everyone). I quoted jmd above because just yesterday I was reading something about a pilot who discussed the universal wish/dream to fly. I don't remember the exact words or context. I had to stop when I read that, though. It struck me: God didn't give us wings, but God gave us the desire to fly, and look what we've been able to achieve with that! As to the original question, I believe that God (whatever God is) speaks to us in whatever way necessary in order to get through. God speaks through the Bible to those who read it. To others, God speaks through nature, through Tarot cards, through friends. God meets us where we are. If you have a desire to read Tarot cards, maybe the reason for that is that God wishes to speak to you that way. Of course, you can alternatively interpret the desire as being not of God. I guess that's something we each have to decide on an individual basis. ElfantPup

Nevada	28 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: It so turns out that many more people around me both have an interest in Tarot and walk Christian-oriented paths... but then again, I am not surrounded by closed-minded bigots. And why would anyone choose to be? I think the question is not so much can you be a Christian and use the Tarot, as it is what aspects of Christianity and what Christian organizations are compatible with someone who is also interested in Tarot. If someone has an interest in both Christianity and Tarot, then surrounding themselves with fundamentalist thinkers or bigots is pretty obviously not going to work. The answer may be to seek out a group of more progressive Christians, who are more supportive of making up one's own mind, personal freedom, access to knowledge other than the Bible, and so forth. I have a strong belief in a personal relationship with deity (whether you believe in one deity or many). I don't ask others what they think God thinks of me. I ask myself, and I ask God. Interestingly, Tarot provides me a lot of guidance and insight into that question. :) Nevada

NightWing	04 Jan 2005
Okay, I am really starting to wonder. We seem to skate around the actual use of the tarot cards for Christians (not the morality of their use). Some people admit to using tarot only or mostly for meditation. So these two questions are addressed to any who would identify themselves as believing Christians, and (obviously here) are Tarot practitioners. (1) Do you believe that the Tarot is a tool through which God "speaks" or communicates with you, similar to prayer, worship, prophecy, meditation, certain life circumstances, and the scriptures? (2) Is it valid and proper to invoke God before or during a reading? An example of this might be: "Holy Spirit of God, descend upon and be with me as I seek the Divine Voice and Will for ________ by the use of this Tarot." OR "Almighty and Omniscient God, who dwells in the past, the present, and the future; guide my hands, my mind, and my heart, as I select and interpret these Tarot cards for the benefit of ________, who seeks what you would have her/him know about the matter here before us." I appreciate your input.

Phoenix Rising	04 Jan 2005
Being a Christian doesn't mean that you are closer to Christ or God than non-christians. "God does not judge!" God hasn't struck any of us down by lightning for reading tarot! The bible is a book of prophecy and His-story(A mans story) The churches didn't want the masses to have ESP, healing gifts, prophecy, mediumship. And yet Jesus, Moses had these things. The churches didn't want people to have power, then how could they control them? Your relationship with God or Christ will not be jeopardised by reading tarot, God is more powerful than that, the cards are no threat to God. The only ones judging you are you and your friend!

HudsonGray	04 Jan 2005
Nightwing--#1, no. #2, only if you feel it necessary for you. I imagine you'd scare away any customers if you did it out loud and they weren't prepared for it. We all have our little reading rituals, using what works for us. Those vary all across the board, but if you're reading for others I'd say to do that part of it silently. I take a moment to calm myself to use the cards, you do need to focus when asking the question and shuffling. But I really do think the answers are in yourself, not a direct connection to the great Almighty or the guy at the other end of the spectrum (as if there's nothing in between...come on!). It's a connection to yourself and the subconscious, which has a heck of a lot of information stored away in there as well as making all sorts of unknown observances through your eyes. We only use a small portion of our brain at any one point in time, so I feel the tarot helps tap into the other part to give us a lot of what we need to know via the cards. Sometimes there is a connection made that you don't know where it comes from, but I don't automatically assume that it's prophecy. The cards are great tools to investigate yourself and your options, to make connections on many levels. They don't fortell the future much because that's always subject to change. You don't have to be Christian to use tarot. I don't think it's really tied in to religion at all. But you do need an open mind to make good use of a reading. If you attribute it all to god you may be putting up blocks to your abilities that you won't be able to get around later. You train yourself to do all sorts of things. If you train yourself to not be able to read unless you feel it's a message from the angels or some such, then you've built a wall you can't get past. This is an art, not a science. If it was a science we'd have book on exactly what each card combination means with no other options to the spread.

RufusJ	04 Jan 2005
From an evangelical/fundamentalist position, a Christian should only get supernatural information from the Holy Spirit. Any source outside of that is forbidden. (Even dream interpretation is suspect by some groups.) The problem is that either the Holy Spirit takes a long time in answering a question, or answers in such a way that the Christian can't recognize the answer. It's wasy to mistake a "feel good" feeling as affirmative wshen really it's only because of the sugar jlot one got from the donut eaten ten minutes before. As far as the Bible is concerned, whether or not it was divinely inspired, the e/f Christian believes it was and acts within the parameters laid out by the Bible. Are there Scriptures that prohibits divination? Yes. Do some of the "good guys" practice divination in the Bible? Yes. One lesser -quoted example is that of Joseph-- he of the many colored coat-- in Genesis 44 (New American Bible [catholic]) whose servant mentions the cup his master (Joseph) uses for divination. In the pentecostal, neo-pentecoastal and charismatic churches they do practice healing and words of knowledge and words of wisdom, plus prophecy which can seem awfully close to divination. A lot of the time nothing happens; sometimes it's right on. I've experienced it, both as a recipient and as a giver. It's the one thing that gives me pause about learning Tarot; if "mixing the streams" messes it up, I wonder if I should continue. But that's just me and my stuff. Carry on.

jmd	04 Jan 2005
Are there Scriptures that prohibits divination? The only I recall are quite specific - and the question needs to also be asked as who is prohibited from divination. Certain groups of people (particular tribes, for example) had specific tasks, which hence also required additional prohibitions. One may indeed read certain specific prohibitions universalised. But then, why not do the same of the other hundreds of prohibitions and regulations?

RufusJ	04 Jan 2005
Hi jmd, They're there... mostly Old Testament such as Deuteronomy, Leviticus, 2 Kings... Deuteronomy 18 is the biggie. In the New Testament in Acts it talks about Paul casting a "spirit of divination" out of a girl. It's just my stuff that I've got to work out.

Fudugazi	05 Jan 2005
Killing is prohibited by the Ten Commandments, but that doesn't seem to bother a lot of people who call themselves Christians - and Jews (of which I am). It seems we are talking about more than simply "Bible vs divination" here, and touching on very profound, ancient and generally unconscious, human fears about magic and the uncanny. Otherwise there would be no need to highlight a few obscure Biblical verses that might or might not condemn divination (of a kind), while patently ignoring the Ten Commandments and justifying all sorts of killing.

jmd	05 Jan 2005
Deuteronomy 18 deals specifically with a rule applying to the Levites once they enter the Holy Land, and is not a general proscription. I and others have previously addressed that one (and a few others) in a small number of older posts: here ; even more specifically with a quote here ; mention of 2 Chronicles 33:6, Zechariah 10:2, Micah 3:7, Deuteronomy 18:10, Jeremiah 14:14 & Ezekiel 12:24 here ; with Leviticus 19:26 also mentioned Of course, these do not 'solve' the perceived problem - rather they highlight that these are not specifically problematic to the Christian, unless read quite out of context. Deuteronomy 18 is not a biggie at all, unless one happens to be a Levite living in Israel wanting to use Tarot in a very specific divinatory manner.

RufusJ	05 Jan 2005
You both have a point. However, whether the Deuteronomy passage was intended to be binding only on the Levitical priesthood (and a question here might be why would God prohibit this to the priesthood? They were to be closer to God than any other group; if divination is a help, then why restrict it?) many Christian groups and denominations interpret these verses applying to the whole Judeo-Christian culture, and the whole world presumably. The reasoning for the Christian is that the Old Testament is a "type and shadow" of what comes in the New Testament. And too, the thought is if it's written in the Bible, it's binding on everyone. (Which doesn't take into account all the other restrictions, prohibitions and punishments that are completely ignored today.) My guess is it's the fear that, if Satan can speak to Eve and cause the downfall of the world, then he can speak to us today and we are only a hair's breath from being deceived. As if God's hold on us is so tenuous and brittle. As if we are pawns in a divine game of chess. I don't think that's the case, although there are religious organizations that would have us believe so-- in practice if not in theology. BTW, someone mentioned 'way back I believe in this thread that if divination was prohibited in the Catholic Church, he'd like to see it. Well, in for penny, in for a pound, The closest reference I could find was in the Catechism--2116. Still no specific mention of tarot there.

ferrous	06 Jan 2005
Nevada wrote: You're right. It's scary when any group of people decides it's up to them to tell others how they should live, believe, think--whatever. It starts in small ways, like a planned community where a kid can't leave his basketball hoop in the driveway overnight, and grows to dangerous proportions. It almost sounds like you're speaking from experience, Nevada. Are you talking of a particular incidence/occasion/place?

Nevada	06 Jan 2005
ferrous wrote: It almost sounds like you're speaking from experience, Nevada. Are you talking of a particular incidence/occasion/place? Oh, that is definitely a side issue, and probably not the best example I could've used, since it has nothing to do with religion or Tarot, just with how people like to control those around them. In the US we have some housing developments that are "planned communities" and are formed with rules for the appearance of homes, sometimes with specific rules requiring certain paint colors, plants for landscaping and rules about parking and what can be left outdoors. Sometimes there is a thick book of rules for such communities (read housing developments) that applies to all residents. An example I've heard from one resident of such a community was that he could only have a portable basketball hoop for his kids and it had to be taken inside (or out of sight) at the end of each day. These communities are private property, so they can have rules you wouldn't see for most public places. Nevada

ferrous	06 Jan 2005
Nevada wrote: Oh, that is definitely a side issue, and probably not the best example I could've used, since it has nothing to do with religion or Tarot, just with how people like to control those around them. In the US we have some housing developments that are "planned communities" and are formed with rules for the appearance of homes, sometimes with specific rules requiring certain paint colors, plants for landscaping and rules about parking and what can be left outdoors. Sometimes there is a thick book of rules for such communities (read housing developments) that applies to all residents. An example I've heard from one resident of such a community was that he could only have a portable basketball hoop for his kids and it had to be taken inside (or out of sight) at the end of each day. These communities are private property, so they can have rules you wouldn't see for most public places. Nevada I assumed it was about controlling people. Some of those rules seem just a tad controlling. Anyway, I'm getting us off-topic now. Thanks for the details. :)

Barbwra	06 Jan 2005
ferrous wrote: I assumed it was about controlling people. Some of those rules seem just a tad controlling. Anyway, I'm getting us off-topic now. Thanks for the details. :) I'm not sure it is off-topic. I think there are two issues here, both applicable to the original question: one is that organized religions try to control people in order to further their power and the other is the matter of who has the right to judge others. I find both of these bothersome at minimum and frightening at maximum.

shandar	15 Feb 2005
Absolutely, Christians can read the tarot! Does anyone here remember the Country Western song about the GI who was using his deck of cards in church during Vietnam, and was arrested, or something. He was castigated for "playing cards" in church, and defiling the sanctity of the church. He went through the cards, The King was god, the Queen was Mary, and so on. Certain minor cards were messages to keep his faith and so on. I recently found a Christian interpretation of the four of swords which affected me very much. Here is an excerpt: "The four of swords is connected to the “Emperor” and also the “Death” card. The emperor represents discipline and wisdom, something any good leader needs if he is to succeed as a leader. Mixed with the death card it gives one the strength to let go of limited beliefs, and to grow in freedom and understanding at deeper and deeper levels. The mysteries of the Christian faith can never be fully understood, and if we read the mystics we will see how they were led….. And also from that to understand that while we each are unique, we are all on the path of faith towards union with God….. even if we don’t believe at this time. The path is dark for all of us since what we would like reality to be is simply not going to happen. God works in secret and will do everything it takes to draw us closer to the mystery of divine love and union. God is provident but does not usually shield us from the pain and suffering that is the lot of us all. This is because our pain is caused by our minds and how we perceive things; the only way out is by going through this dark night of the soul so to speak." I can't remember where I got it, but if you do a search on the four of swords, I bet you will find the site. No, Pixie, you can use the Tarot, just do it with your beliefs as your base. There are sooooo many people who want us to limit ourselves, and want us to be just like they are. You can meditate on this and carry on a conversation with your creator on it and make your own decision. Be your own person, and follow your own path, because in the end, that's all any of us can do. hugs and kises xox Shandar

RedMaple	16 Feb 2005
Just wanted to say the name of this post sounds like a C&W song! if I can't be a Tarot Christian with you baby then I'm off to Galilee...yahoo

seapearls	17 Feb 2005
Barbwra wrote: I'm not sure it is off-topic. I think there are two issues here, both applicable to the original question: one is that organized religions try to control people in order to further their power and the other is the matter of who has the right to judge others. I find both of these bothersome at minimum and frightening at maximum. Must ring in my 2 cents here. "one is that organized religions try to control people in order to further their power" Very true which is why I'm Pagan. This controlling by certain religions is whats turning many away from them. No one has power over you. Don't fall for their scare tactics. " who has the right to judge others" No one! You practice what ever you want. I don't care if the pope himself tells you not to practice tarot. That doesn not mean you have to obey him or anyone else who thinks they know whats best for you. You make your own decisions and don't let anyone else influence you, you'll have plenty of supporters here to keep you on track. Your friend is just scared like all the others of somethign she does not understand. I swear its an epidemic.

Indigo Rose	17 Feb 2005
Pixie wrote: I am a Christian, but I am in love with the tarot. Well the other day a friend told me I couldn't and wasn't a "faithful christian" if i read tarot. I don't want to compromise my religion, and I don't want to give up tarot! help! -Pixie :( Since this thread was started by someone who practices Christianity, I think it is important to answer from that vantage point. It is a given that those who don't practice the religion may not understand the conflict, or may dismiss the concerns Christians have over Tarot. In my opinion, mainstream Christianity will ALWAYS be against Tarot because it is used in Divination; which is forbidden in the Old Testament under Levitical law. Rather than investigate the whole Bible and look at the scriptures in context, the focus ALWAYS goes to those key scriptures that restrict and forbid instead of the scriptures that celebrate our FREEDOM in CHRIST! The fact is that Christians are NOT under the LAW. We are under a new covenant. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the LAW. In addition, the scriptures are filled with accounts of GOD's people practicing divination and receiving prophetic dreams/visions. As a Christian, I find it best not discuss Tarot with other Christians who are stuck in the dogma constructed by the church; not everyone can handle everything. Besides, you will only open yourself up to being attacked. It took me a long time to reconcile my Christian faith with my interest in Tarot. However, I made an informed choice after seeking the answers on my own and not listening to voices of those who merely parrot the teachings of the Church. The bottom line Tarot and Christianity don't clash; it's Tarot and Christian DOGMA that are at odds.

MercyMe	17 Feb 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: The bottom line Tarot and Christianity don't clash; it's Tarot and Christian DOGMA that are at odds. Great post, Indigo Rose. I am also a Christian, a former fundamentalist conservative evangelical type Christian. (I've come a long way, baby, LOL! :) ) So I am intimately and painfully familiar with the dogmatic theologies of which you speak that hamstring so many, many good people and cause so much friction and are cause for many hurtful and hard things to be said between people who are supposed to be "brothers and sisters in Christ." I have no problem with Tarot, obviously, but I do interact with people who do. I try to respect their views and I expect them to respect mine. I don't ask my more conservative friends if they'd like a reading and I generally don't discuss Tarot with them at all. Flaunting one's freedoms isn't the way to go either, like in your face with an Ace! LOL! There's a sinister side of me that would love to do that, but it's not loving. ~Mercy

Junia	18 Feb 2005
I can't believe that I missed this forum before. I am a generic Christian and a Tarot lover, too. I pray every time I read and ask to understand my question and to have it answered. I have had wonderful readings regarding my mother who died in 2001 and my earthly birth father whom I have never met. I have stuck my neck out in a couple of different forums afraid of being the only Christian Reader on ATF. Now, I find that you were here all along. I once posted in another thread that it would be wonderful to speculate about whether The Magician is the Jesus Card (doing the ultimate transcendance from human form to glorious resurrection). All of the cards are based (as far as everything I have read) on an Italian Family's (probably Catholic-based faith) commission of a deck of playing cards. My SO and I are former Mormons who read Tarot; but we too are wary of bringing up the cards to other practicing members so as not to offend them. God will speak to you in what ever form you ask--even Tarot. Somewhere in the New Testament it is written that you can ask, knock and seek and all things will be given unto you that you seek. Lay the Peace of Christ at your heart and read on. Love, Junia P.S. (for Pixie Sweet) There are also foretellings in the "end of times" parts of scripture that say that your sons and daughters will prophesy and out of their mouths will come great wisdom. I paraphrase a lot--sorry.

MercyMe	18 Feb 2005
Hey Junia, I knew you were Christian simply by your name. Who else would choose the only female apostle mentioned by name in the New Testament but a strong-minded Christian woman? ;) Finding Junia in the Bible was a MAJOR turning point for me as I was exiting fundamentalism. Absolutely love her. ~Mercy

Junia	18 Feb 2005
And looking at your name and this thread, I've turned over the grand Temperance Card. Thanks, MercyMe and Nine of Cups, Love Junia.

Indigo Rose	18 Feb 2005
MercyMe wrote: Hey Junia, I knew you were Christian simply by your name. Who else would choose the only female apostle mentioned by name in the New Testament but a strong-minded Christian woman? ;) Finding Junia in the Bible was a MAJOR turning point for me as I was exiting fundamentalism. Absolutely love her. ~Mercy MercyMe and Junia, I didn't know that Junias was a woman. However, in an effort to research this I looked it up. SURE ENOUGH.....Romans 16:7 provides the evidence!! Thanks again for ENLIGHTENING me. Blessings, Indigo Rose :)

Odette	18 Feb 2005
I see that it's about time for me to come out of the closet... I am also a Christian Tarot-lover, and thought that I was the only one in the world who had it like this. How wonderful it is to meet so many people here who are the same! I agree with Indigo Rose that one shouldn't discuss this theme with other Christians, because they just do not want to understand. I find it in fact difficult to go too far into interpretation-thing because of my faith, so I consentrate on the story around the cards, and have no problems with this.

memries	20 Feb 2005
Me too Odette... Christian. I do not see Christianity (for myself that is) as being exclusive. It is what is in your heart. If you have read any of the great mystics you will see that they did not pay too much attention to the hard line R.C.'s In all honesty many of them were R.C.... in fact at one time if you were not R.C. you were dead... aside from the Greek (at that time)Orthodox Church. Religion should be inclusive of everyone and respect everyone including the Mother Earth Celebrants. Love your Neighbor does not mean just the WASPS who live next door. At this point in time I have no inner conflicts about the Tarot Cards but I must say years ago that I did. I guess we grow wiser as time goes on. We believe what we are taught and then find out that some of it was ,of the time. or bigotted or both. We change our beliefs. I really enjoy Symbolism as written about by C Jung and Joseph Campbell with his Myths. This is was fascinates me about the Tarot. There is so much out there that the heirarchy wanted to put "blinders" on. It was the time but now it is 2005 and we can read and educate ourselves and what fun it is !

midsummer	21 Feb 2005
Hi Pixie, What a good post! I feel the RW deck looks at this aspect of life within the deck The Hierophant and The High Priestess (spirituality) what is more christian than trying to help unravel a situation or problem? The Tarot is a truely noble tool for helping and this to me is what religion is meant to be about. That persons thinking is why the tarot began to exist and is narrow minded for 2005. As far as futuristic predictions go The Tarot can only tell what is likely to happen not what WILL happen. We all come from different points of view I guess. Love Mid.

MercyMe	21 Feb 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: I didn't know that Junias was a woman. However, in an effort to research this I looked it up. SURE ENOUGH Yes! Interestingly, translators actually changed her name to Junias in some versions because they could not conceive of a woman being named an apostle, so they added an "s" to her name. Early Christian Fathers, however, such as John Chrysostem for example, clearly refer to her as a woman. Sadly, so much evidence of women in leadership in the early church was defaced or erased in later times...sculptures of women bishops, for example, had their names changed as well to represent them not as bishops but as wives of bishops. There are frescoes in ancient churches where women preside over the Eucharist, but their faces have been obscured -- but you can still see that they are women from their clothing. Junia, thank you for that card! Temperance certainly is appropriate for how I mix my faith and my other interests in my life, particularly in Tarot. :) ~Mercy

TheLovers2	21 Feb 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: As a Christian, I find it best not discuss Tarot with other Christians who are stuck in the dogma constructed by the church; not everyone can handle everything. Besides, you will only open yourself up to being attacked. It took me a long time to reconcile my Christian faith with my interest in Tarot. However, I made an informed choice after seeking the answers on my own and not listening to voices of those who merely parrot the teachings of the Church. The bottom line Tarot and Christianity don't clash; it's Tarot and Christian DOGMA that are at odds. Indigo Rose, it's soooo good to see you back at ATF! I have actually been off the boards for a bit (not for very long, but, for me it feels like longer). :) I logged on today and saw someone had quoted you. Really glad to have you back! I began to think we'd seen the last of you and that you'd never return. Well, I absolutely agree with what you stated in your post and, especially, in regards to the portion about making an informed choice, after investigating on your own - not simply listening to the voices of those who "parrot" and there is WAY TOO MUCH of that going on in many areas of the Church's teachings. My thoughts, to anyone who might still be struggling with this as well as, reinforcing the stand for those who are not: It takes COURAGE and yes, even FAITH to stand for YOUR beliefs, even if they are opposed to what many of your brothers and sisters in Christ believe. Yet, this walk with Christ is so personal (no one can do it for you) that one is faced with these day-to-day decisions and simply must decide things for themselves. One must know their OWN heart! Imagine going to someone else (anyone else) to find out what you should eat, drink, where you should go and what you should do each day of your life. Who can tell you these things? And if they cannot decide the least of these issues for you, then who are they to dictate any of it. We, the Church, will agree with each other at times and disagree at others and when we find that our particular beliefs/thoughts/decisions (IN PARTICULAR, INTERPRETATIONS) do not agree with the, let's say, "majority," well, then we are at a crossroads and must decide which way to go. What will we do at those times? I know it may not feel good to go against the grain or to be in a minority (there's so much strength in numbers) however, things change when those "courageous few" take a stand for what they believe to be right. Learn to trust yourself, Christ in you and rest in that. :) TL2 :TLOVE

Indigo Rose	21 Feb 2005
TheLovers2 wrote: Indigo Rose, it's soooo good to see you back at ATF! I have actually been off the boards for a bit (not for very long, but, for me it feels like longer).....Really glad to have you back! I began to think we'd seen the last of you and that you'd never return. ..... Learn to trust yourself, Christ in you and rest in that. :) TL2 :TLOVE I am glad to be back. I took a break, but missed it.....so I had to return. :) I'm glad you are back here, as well. It is great to see the Christians who are here on AT. Odette, MercyMe, midsummer, memries, junia, and TL2...(and all the Christians here on AT). I consider it a blessing and a great witness that we have found a common link that transcends the boundaries set by man. BLESSINGS....and Thank you for all of the POSITIVE examples of Christians who live in LOVE, and follow their hearts. Indigo Rose :)

Rachel Nguyen	22 Feb 2005
I am so glad to see this thread... I have been a tarot reader for about 20 years and became a Christian a year and a half ago. I am convinced that God actually used the tarot to draw me to Jesus. (I am a major Tarot de Marseille fan... and if you don't see Christian symbolism all over the trumps, you aren't looking hard enough, LOL!) Integrating the two things has been easier for me because I am a member of a Unitarian Universalist church, which is open to pretty much anything. In fact, they are probably more comfortable with the tarot than they are with Jesus! I still read professionally, but tend to shy away from "predicting the future" and use it more of a way to minister to people. So far, my readings have been more accurate and my client base is growing.... I am excited to see so many fellow Christians! Love, Rachel New Jesus Freak... old tarot fan....

contrascarpe	22 Feb 2005
I see no problem integrating Christianity with Tarot. However, I know I am the minority. Growing up Roman Catholic and loving Tarot was tough. The combination of a much older brother, into the esoteric culture of the sixties, and parents who preached my faith but yet were cool to the ways of the world, helped. I picked up my first Tarot deck (yes, a Rider-Waite) while still a schoolboy at a Catholic School. I was a novice, but when I moved over to public school, and a Psychology class (in senior year, where my thesis was Psychology and the Occult) transformed me forever. I am still technically a Catholic. Not sure which Parish I belong to these days as the only time I enter a church is for funerals and weddings. In fact, the doctrines of Catholiscm have left me feeling empty - the hypocrisy disgusts me ... won't get into that here as I have rehashed it in other threads. That being said, I firmly believe that Christianity and Tarot can coexist if the Seeker is open-minded. Unfortunately, most so-called Christians cannot accept Tarot, just as they cannot accept homosexuality and abortion. My first child will be born in six months, and I am conflicted in how we will raise her/him. Twenty years ago, I would not have had that dilemma. Dan

Junia	23 Feb 2005
Right on everyone. Praise The Lord and pass the Tarot--Forward we go! Love, Junia

tarobones	23 Feb 2005
This seems to be a recurring question. For those who are Christians and Tarot lovers, I refer them to Meditations on the Tarot. It is a huge book........I think close to a thousand pages on the Major Arcana. It has an Afterward by a famous Cardinal of the Catholic Church who is also a world renowned theologian. He heartily endorses the book. THe book also contains rave reviews by several very famous Catholic priest-theologians. The book is loaded with Tarot wisdom and Catholic theology. The author is Anonymous. Peace and blessings, Michael (Catholic and Tarotist).

The Doc	23 Feb 2005
tarot is just another way to connect with god. We each have our own way. I am a "bon agean wiccan" according to my mom. it is not much different, we just chose our own path, no mater how off course it may seem to other. All you have to ask you self at the end of the day is "am i happy with my self?" a quote too "I know i exist becauce i think." you dont know about anyone else(thety could be figments of your mind), and personal " did I do my best?" The Doc.

Junia	24 Feb 2005
Hey, everyone check out the "Master Tarot" by Amerigo Folchi under Aeclectic's Decks. Beautiful cards depicting scenes from Jesus' life. Mustard Seed, etc. Love and Cups of Nines, Junia

psychic sue	24 Feb 2005
This thread is very interesting and reminds me of a comment I once read about a priest who had a near death/death experience. He said when he died, 3 angels came to meet him (well, he called then angels but other people in the book referred to them as "beings of light") and gave him a review of his life. When he had caused another person pain, he felt it. When he had caused another person joy, he felt it. He says it was very non-judgmental, and he only felt love from the "angels". He asked them about his religion, and where God and Jesus were. They said "It doesn't matter what religion you are - you have to live your life with love. That is all that matters". I can't remember the name of this book, but it was all about NDE's and interestingly, the author had studied all religions and cultures, but everyone had the same core experience - being greeted by 3 beings of light, sometimes seeing Jesus or Mohammed, or however their chosed deity was, and reviewing their life. The author had also hypnotised people back to their previous death. The next stage would be, after the life review, chosing when and where to be born again, WHO to be born with and your relationship to those people (all those difficult relationships you have? you chose them, so you could work through them), and then going into the womb. It was a fascinating book, but I loaned it out to someone years ago and never got it back. If anyone else has it, or has read it, I'd be grateful if they can tell me the name of the book and the author. I should know, because the author has written several books on this, but the name escapes me. I've got a feeling it was called Life before Death. So, going back to the original question, my belief is that it doesn't really matter what we do as long as we do no harm to others.

Junia	25 Feb 2005
The book you are looking for is called "Life after Life", by Raymond A. Moody, Jr., M.D. I love his work and often refer it to others who think that Christianity has one certain belief that is "the only way to God." Dr. Moody's book that followed LAL is entitled, "The Light Beyond/New Explorations by the Author of Life after Life." Here is a quote from this sequel, "They [people who experience a near death experience] come to realize through this experience that religion is not a matter of one 'right' group versus several 'wrong' groups. People who undergo an NDE come out of it saying that religion concerns your ability to love--not doctrines and denominations. In short, they think that God is a much more magnanimous being than they had previously thought, and that denominations don't count." It then goes on the cite a devout Lutheran Woman's NDE in which she told her children that God, "didn't care about church doctrine at all." I believe that Tarot is just another link to God and like all links that human beings use wind up connecting in the same place. P.S. If you need the ISBN Pyschic Sue, let me know and I will Private Message it to you. Love and Nine of Cups to everyone, today. Junia

Khatruman	25 Feb 2005
I am making a solemn vow never again to reply to a post on how Christianity is so vehemently opposed to tarot. My last word is that they are not mutually exclusive. You can follow Christ, and you can study tarot. End of sermon.

wandking	25 Feb 2005
In this forum, I've seen a great many postings where the writers seem to wonder or believe Tarot is wrong because it predicts the future and thus somehow becomes sinful. Indeed, there are positions in my spread that deal with predicting the future. When I reach those positions during a reading, I generally tell the seekers that "the future is fluid and not predictable... The future depends on choices made in the present, past and whatever power they feel controls the Universe," which in many cases is God. I feel Tarot is most beautiful when we use it to empower clients to face an uncertain future, instead of a means of actually predicting the future. I do add that "Tarot may offer a LIKELY future if you remain on the current path." In this approach, Tarot becomes a tool for empowerment not divination. No where in the Bible can I find a reference that forbids the preceeding approach to using Tarot. To sum this all up, these cards are no more evil than a gun. It depends on the user whether it is something beautifully potent to be collected and cared for, or a destructive weapon that robs others of free choice in the future.

Elmcarra	26 Feb 2005
galadrial wrote: I begin each reading with the prayer "Holy Spirit enlighten me, be a lamp of wisdom unto my feet. Today is a day the Lord hath made, let me rejoice and be glad in it." I also frequently use the 3 card spread: 1. How can I serve? 2. What is important? 3. What is necessary? Galadrial, thank you for sharing your prayer. I am going to begin each reading with it from now on! Just letting you know youve made an impact on me with my learning. sincerely, elm

psychic sue	26 Feb 2005
Junia wrote: The book you are looking for is called "Life after Life", by Raymond A. Moody, Jr., M.D. I love his work and often refer it to others who think that Christianity has one certain belief that is "the only way to God." Dr. Moody's book that followed LAL is entitled, "The Light Beyond/New Explorations by the Author of Life after Life." Here is a quote from this sequel, "They [people who experience a near death experience] come to realize through this experience that religion is not a matter of one 'right' group versus several 'wrong' groups. People who undergo an NDE come out of it saying that religion concerns your ability to love--not doctrines and denominations. In short, they think that God is a much more magnanimous being than they had previously thought, and that denominations don't count." It then goes on the cite a devout Lutheran Woman's NDE in which she told her children that God, "didn't care about church doctrine at all." I believe that Tarot is just another link to God and like all links that human beings use wind up connecting in the same place. P.S. If you need the ISBN Pyschic Sue, let me know and I will Private Message it to you. Love and Nine of Cups to everyone, today. Junia YES Junia! Raymond Moody! Please can you clarify ISBN?

psychic sue	26 Feb 2005
wandking wrote: Indeed, there are positions in my spread that deal with predicting the future. When I reach those positions during a reading, I generally tell the seekers that "the future is fluid and not predictable... The future depends on choices made in the present, past and whatever power they feel controls the Universe," which in many cases is God. Wandking you are so right. I always tell people that most things in life are not a foregone conclusion, and the choice is their own to make what they will of their life. I know this has been discussed many times on many threads, but a lot of people think Tarot is a fortune telling only thing. I see it more as a guide to life and I try and explain this to people who come to me.

wulfshado	26 Feb 2005
Hi, The reference that I think most of you are using about foretune telling being against Biblical law actually had nothing to do with foretune telling or predicting the future at all. The indict was specifically against necromancy, or raising the dead in order to gain information from the other side for personal gain. (Which in this particular case was a ruler raising the dead to get information to overthrow another ruler.) The indict is against commanding or trying to control the dead, not viewing the future. It's a popular misconception that the verse forbid predicting the future and causes quite a bit of confusion because, as alot of you have said, the Bible is full of vision questing, dreams, fortune telling, and more. Hope this helps some. Wulfie

MercyMe	26 Feb 2005
Well, actually, the warnings against divination are scattered throughout the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:10-12, Ezekiel 12:24, Acts 16:16-18 for example. These aren't associated with the account of Saul contacting the dead through the Witch of Endor. I happen to have a very unorthodox view of the Bible anyway, but putting on my more orthodox hat for a moment, one can see how the proclamations to Israel in the Bible were seemingly designed to separate them from their surrounding cultures. They were supposed to segregate themselves by abandoning and rejecting the customs and practices of the surrounding tribes and cultures. Most of the references to forbidding divination has to do with these kinds of prohibitions that reinforced Israel's "unique" status. Some of the references in the OT are prophetic (ha! the IRONY!) condemnations of divinations that were obviously false and which gave folks a false sense of security and complacency. The prophets were screaming, "Don't you see? They're lying to you!" And that can be a problem, you know? Being lulled into a false sense of security over something a fortune-teller told you. It seems to me the warnings were to not put your entire faith in divination or those who paint everything rosy and ignoring the writing on the wall in front of your face. The NT reference has to do with the Apostle Paul performing an exorcism on a woman with a "spirit of divination." But the issue wasn't so much the divination, because she was divining the truth about Paul and his companion. The issue was that she was basically being prostituted for her services. Her divining talents were being used by others, her masters, for their gain and not hers. After Paul "delivered" her, she couldn't be psychically prostituted anymore, thereby delivering her in a much deeper way from bondage from those who used and abused her. It wasn't so much a condemnation of divination but of using others for your own profit. Just my musings, take 'em or leave 'em. ~Mercy

wandking	26 Feb 2005
The reference I found was Leviticus and not only forbids divination but also trimming the hair and beard. I wonder why those who trim their hair and beard somehow draw the line at divination in the first place. I guess it also depends on which bible you use. In King James it only says this in Liviticus: 25And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God. 26Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. 27Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. 28Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. 29Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. 30Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. 31Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God. the New American Standard alters the passages to this: 26'You shall not eat anything (Z)with the blood, nor practice (AA)divination or soothsaying. 27'(AB)You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. 28'You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD. 29'(AC)Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness. 30'You shall (AD)keep My sabbaths and (AE)revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD. 31'Do not turn to (AF)mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. The New Living Translation offers this: 26"Never eat meat that has not been drained of its blood. "Do not practice fortune-telling or witchcraft. 27"Do not trim off the hair on your temples or clip the edges of your beards. 28"Never cut your bodies in mourning for the dead or mark your skin with tattoos, for I am the LORD. 29"Do not defile your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will be filled with promiscuity and detestable wickedness. 30"Keep my Sabbath days of rest and show reverence toward my sanctuary, for I am the LORD. 31"Do not rely on mediums and psychics, for you will be defiled by them. I, the LORD, am your God. It all kinda make me wonder if these authors understood Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

similia	26 Feb 2005
wandking wrote: It all kinda make me wonder if these authors understood Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I've been thinking about this too lately. There seem to be lots of warnings about not changing the bible, however it is done quite a lot. It made me think about the Catholic view of the Pope's decisions as being made true in heaven as well as earth (much paraphrasing I know, I don't mean offense). In that case why doesn't the Pope say "I've decided all these things are OK, so there's a party in heaven and your all invited" :) I'm hesitant to ask this next question, but am so curious to know that I"ve decided to risk controversy again. Why do we never get threads about it being forbidden for Jews to use tarot? It seems the majority of the biblical reference against divination come from the Old Testement.

RufusJ	26 Feb 2005
My understanding about the prohibition in Revelations concerning the adding or taking away of words to the book and the penalties thereof were in reference to the Book of Revelations alone. After all, there wasn't a Bible, per se, in the Christian religion until quite a while after the death of Christ. Even then it wasn't codified until about three hundred years later. Interesting that you were taught that Paul's deliverance of the woman with a spirit of divination wasn't a direct 'hit" on divination. I was told it *was* against divination; the prostitution of her gifts wasn't even brought up. Why? Because the spirit of divination was a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit.

wandking	26 Feb 2005
Yes, I agree rufus, in all fairness to those kind enough to rewrite the Bible for us I'll post their versions. First the old-fashioned KJV, (which I prefur but heck, I like Waite becuse he's a more original source.) 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Now some newer versions, first the New American Standard: 18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly " Amen Come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen now here's the New Living Translation: 18And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone removes any of the words of this prophetic book, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book. 20He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon!" Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! 21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all. I still like the old-fashioned version of putting Jesus together with Christ. I'd say these newer versions do indeed "take away" some words. I'd say Catholics and especially the Pope get a break on this one, similia. Traditionally the Pope resists any changes in the Bible.

similia	27 Feb 2005
wandking wrote: I'd say Catholics and especially the Pope get a break on this one, similia. Traditionally the Pope resists any changes in the Bible. I didn't mean to imply Catholics or the Pope were running around making changes to the bible. I instead I was speculating on a related issue of the Pope's power to "rewrite" the rules on behalf of the church. I'm really curious about how Catholics perceive his role in that regard.

MercyMe	27 Feb 2005
RufusJ wrote: Interesting that you were taught that Paul's deliverance of the woman with a spirit of divination wasn't a direct 'hit" on divination. I was told it *was* against divination; the prostitution of her gifts wasn't even brought up. Why? Because the spirit of divination was a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit. Oh no, Rufus, I was taught just what you were taught. But then I got better. Heh. ;) Here's the story for reference: (Acts 16:16-19 KJV) "And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: {17} The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation. {18} And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. {19} And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers," You know, Jesus said those who were not against us are for us, so why was Paul grieved? I personally would LIKE to believe that Paul was grieved because she was being used and her gifts were being abused for profit. True, it says here that she was "possessed with a spirit of divination" which probably is the author's bias against any kind of supernatural gift that is not directly attributed to the Holy Spirit. But that's my OWN personal take on that story, not the one most commonly taught. ~Mercy

jmd	27 Feb 2005
There is a distinction to be made between divination, and the case mentioned in Acts 16. The translation, in the particular passage, uses various terms for ease of understanding, yet in the original Greek it reads that the slave-girl had a 'Python-spirit' within her that allowed her to foretell the future. Here, then, is again not an instance of words against divination, but in that case against possession - that incidentally also allowed her to foretell. By a similar line of poor reasoning, one could argue against speaking altogether because there are instances in which speech is produced by an instance of possession. One may argue that the instance in this part of the Bible uses a standard Greek phrase to refer to divination by common analogy to the Delphic pythonic oracle, yet the full passage makes it clear that in that case, the slave-girl was considered to be 'possessed'. To leap from possession and Christian views on this to making proclamations against divination by analogy is, in my personal view, not only unwarranted, but reflects poor theological reflection.

Nevada	27 Feb 2005
One also has to take into account the question of inerrancy of scripture. Among fundamentalists the Bible is considered to be divinely written and without error, while more progressive Christians consider it to be divinely inspired, but translated imperfectly by man. Nevada

wandking	27 Feb 2005
I can only speak for one ex- Catholic, similia, me... Back when I practiced that faith, I never really gave it much thought. Each time the Pope made changes in Catholic practices in my life they were to a more liberal position, such as women offering sacrements, stuff like that. The changes I saw were generally supported by the congregation. Most of the complaints came from the older members, younger Catholics generally suported the more progressive attitudes. Right now I suspect they're praying for a nice old guy to pull through tough times.

psychic sue	28 Feb 2005
I am a non-practising catholic. One of the many reasons I don't see eye to eye with that faith anymore, was the pope's edict that condoms cannot be used in respect of protection from the aids virus, and the church's promotion of the myth that the virus can somehow find it's way through rubber, so there's no point in using them for that reason anyway. As a parent of 2 teenagers, I personally find this irresponsible in the extreme. I tell my lads to always use protection, no matter what the church says. I really can't see any justification for the above viewpoint (the Church's) unless anyone can enlighten me?

wandking	28 Feb 2005
I certainly don't support every position the Church endorces, if I did, I wouldn't be an ex-Catholic. lol... I do feel sorry for the current Pope but some Popes in history were real demons, like Pope Innocent III.

Junia	28 Feb 2005
Wow, what a great discussion this is turning out to be. Psychic Sue the ISBN (International Standard Book Number) is that weird little critter at the back and bottom of every book printed or on the reverse side of the Title Page inside the book. It has a bar code. You can look this bar code up in any book dealer's webpage and find a copy of the book. The copy I have of Life After Life was printed by Bantam Books, the ISBN is 0553100807 (usually you can omit the first 0); The Light Beyond was also printed by Bantam Books, the ISBN is 0553278134. You will usually see a "-" in between the numbers; but if you are calling say Barnes & Noble Bookstore (sorry, I don't work for them but cannot think of another bit book mogul to exemplify) you merely leave out the hyphens. If it is out of print, or has changed publishers, the best thing to do is look through a special book dealer or online service. I am sorry to post the epistle on this subject; ;-) but I thought someone else would treasure these little gems, too. I don't know if it has been mentioned; but, after all Tarot Cards were commissioned and patterend after Catholic tradition in Italy by a wealthy family. The Heirophant originally being the Pope and the High Priestess the Papess (or Popess {but that is another wild discussion}). Probably why the Tarot, itself, hasn't been condemned by Jewish folks is that it comes from a Catholic Tradition and Jews (at least the ones I've met) don't believe in J.C. or The N.T. Also, there are so many Jewish sects out there, and no leading, central figure (I listen to what the Pope has to say even though I am not a Catholic) like the Pope in their Theology. Since Christianity is founded on the split w/Peter (the Catholic Church) or the Gnostics, or others. It is hard to define anything in Christianity without looking to Catholocism. P.S. can someone please tell me what that little "green" devil means, posted by the Moderator?

jmd	01 Mar 2005
The 'little green devil' was not posted by any moderator, but as a 'smiley' made by the sequence of the two brackets you used: } followed by )

psychic sue	01 Mar 2005
wandking wrote: I certainly don't support every position the Church endorces, if I did, I wouldn't be an ex-Catholic. lol... I do feel sorry for the current Pope but some Popes in history were real demons, like Pope Innocent III. I didn't mean to imply that I don't feel sorry for the pope. He's very ill and of course I hope he gets better. I also have no doubt that the Catholic Church has done many good works and provides spiritual sanctuary for millions of people. But what about those Borjais!!! By the way Wandking,(no doubt you know much more than me on this subject) was it Pope Innocent III that re-wrote the bible and cast Mary Magdelaine as a prostitute? Or am I getting my popes mixed up?

Ahria	01 Mar 2005
psychic sue wrote: I really can't see any justification for the above viewpoint (the Church's) unless anyone can enlighten me? My grandmother is a staunch Catholic and says you not suppose to be having sex at all, so I posed the question so if a husband cheats and then infects his wife its ok? To which she replied its not, and in some ways it just doesnt make sense. To me personally, I am Catholic but also non practising one, (my confession right now would take weeks), but I think their viewpoint is naive and they need to update themselves with the times we live in. PS I cant spell

wandking	01 Mar 2005
I learn something new here every day... Pope Innocent III called Gnosticism heresy and started the Crusades, which lead to the Inquisition. Pope Innocent, what a misnomer, was a real :})

psychic sue	01 Mar 2005
wandking wrote: I learn something new here every day... Pope Innocent III called Gnosticism heresy and started the Crusades, which lead to the Inquisition. Pope Innocent, what a misnomer, was a real :}) I was getting completely mixed up. I was thinking of the Roman Emporer Constantine The Great, who fiddled with the gospels, but I know one of the Pope's suddenly announced during a mass that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. Can't remember which Pope though. I thought it was Innocent III but I'm probably wrong. Can anyone help with that info, cuz its driving me crazy now!!!

psychic sue	01 Mar 2005
Ahria wrote: My grandmother is a staunch Catholic and says you not suppose to be having sex at all, so I posed the question so if a husband cheats and then infects his wife its ok? To which she replied its not, and in some ways it just doesnt make sense. To me personally, I am Catholic but also non practising one, (my confession right now would take weeks), but I think their viewpoint is naive and they need to update themselves with the times we live in. PS I cant spell Ha ha! I'd have to spend a couple of weeks in the confession box too!

similia	01 Mar 2005
Magdalene as the prositute came from Pope Gregory. I don't know anything about his personal "agenda" (I use the term very loosely), but assume it was a mix up of all the different Marys. I saw a facinating documentary series recently on the women of the bible. Myriam (hebrew for Mary) was the most common female name, and accounted for 2/3 of the female population apparently.

psychic sue	01 Mar 2005
similia wrote: Magdalene as the prositute came from Pope Gregory. I don't know anything about his personal "agenda" (I use the term very loosely), but assume it was a mix up of all the different Marys. I saw a facinating documentary series recently on the women of the bible. Myriam (hebrew for Mary) was the most common female name, and accounted for 2/3 of the female population apparently. THANK YOU similia! Gregory! I'll sleep tonight now! That documentary sounds fascinating. I think I've read that somewhere before actually, about the name Mary. I've also read somewhere that when Jesus was born, the constellation Virgo was prominent in the sky, and this somehow got distorted into the Virgin Birth. Does anyone know anything about that?

Junia	01 Mar 2005
Don't know about Virgo being in the sky at the time of J.C.'s birth (hope the abbreviation doesn't offend anyone). But, interestingly, I saw a documentary filmed by the BBC called, "Jesus: The Complete Story", and the "star" that the wisemen (who were atrologers) saw was actually Jupiter. For years, astronomers have searched documentation trying to find that star (and could never do it); but, through sophisticated computers, they were able to plot the course of the heavens during that time and found "Jupiter." It makes sense since astrology preceded astronomy and even the wisest of wisemen wouldn't have know the difference between a star and planet. Oh, and thanks jmd. We thought the green devil was a mischievous hint.LOL I do wish we had a spellll cheker for these posts! Laugh At Myself (LAM). Love and Nine of Cups, Junia

NightWing	10 Mar 2005
Similia and others: I think the point about Mary of Magdala is being missed here (and hence her place in several tarot decks is also being misunderstood). (a)The idea that she was originally the prostitute (or "loose woman" anyway) that Jesus saved from being stoned to death was to emphasize the magnitude of her repentence for other Christians. If even SHE could reform and become important in, and a saint of, the early church, so could they. She was an image of hope. (b) It was well-known in early Christianity that Mary M. had been very close to Jesus, and it was considered significant that it was to her that he first appeared in his risen form...and NOT to the 12 Apostles. Much more has been made of this relationship, that I won't belabour here. But suffice it to say that the Eastern Orthodox believers refer to Mary M. as "Equal to the Apostles". (c) Gnostic Christians often identify her with the holy Sophia, the "spirit of wisdom", the creative and nurturing "breath of God". It is only in our hypocritical modern era that the idea (factual or not) of her beginning as a prostitute is seen as a put-down of her, and by extension, of women. (I knew those Christian history courses would come in handy eventually!) P.S. RE: the various Popes - my reading is that some of them historically have been mediocre administrators, some have been pretty good, some have even been saints, and some have been the horrible children of their times like Innocent III and Alexander VI(Borgia). Several have even commissioned Tarot decks! })

MercyMe	10 Mar 2005
Ah, but labeling her a prostitute when she was not has deeper significance than just holding her up as an example of a female version of "the chief of sinners." Textually, Magdalene was delivered of seven demons when she met Jesus. There is no mention of her being a prostitute. The woman Jesus saved from death by stoning was not necessarily a prostitute either. She was "caught in the very act of adultery." (And where was her accomplice? Why was he not brought to "justice?") The "woman of ill repute" who crashed Simon the Pharisee's party was most likely a woman others viewed as a whore, but nowhere does it say this was Mary Magdalene. Accuracy, especially where the history of women and the church are concerned, matters. Our history within Christianity has been defaced, eraced, censored, and altered. I don't care, really, if the myth about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute is prettied up to have some deeper spiritual significance if, at the basis, it is a lie. ~Mercy

NightWing	11 Mar 2005
You are perfectly right about the ways in which history has been rewritten, and usually to the detriment of some group or other, the largest example in the west being women. The idea that "history" is "factual" is of course largely a myth itself. If by "history" you mean the reality of what once happened, well, there is no way to know that so long after the fact. We can't even agree today on what happened in Vietnam in the 1960s or in Iraq in the last 24 months. Memory is faulty, opinions are distorted, and records get lost. How can we possibly know the "truth" about events from 2000 years ago? "History"(always written by the dominators) becomes legend, and legend becomes myth. A myth, such as the conflated story that has been handed down about Mary of Magdala, is by definition not true as such. The story has, or had, a point to make. Outside of the story, there is no evidence whatsoever that Mary Magdalene even existed. Like all myths, it could be termed a lie. But if we don't base our belief systems on one or other of these "lies", then there is nothing whatever to use. Native Americans, Pagans, Jews, Wiccans, African cultures, Buddhists, Australian Aborigines, and others all use myths in describing who they are and where they came from. Christians are no different. In matters of myth, especially foundational myths, accuracy is irrelevant, except possibly in tranlating from one language to another. If you toss out your myths, you toss out yourself. It is important to know about where we come from mythologically, including the errors along the way,

Junia	11 Mar 2005
Time Magazine has cited, as I wrote in another thread, that the Roman Catholic Church (which does have complete archives of its addresses [particularly papal]) that the RC has traced the MM culprit/myth back to Pope Gregory VI who got the Marys mixed up. It (the Church) has since recanted the position on MM as indeed not the same figure as the prostitute but as the figure who was possessed. For more information check out the feminist Catholics' dialogues at such places as Notre Dame U. (Regina Coll, etc.) and have a look at what these feminist scholars are saying regarding Marionism. And yes it does matter to me that MM was called a wrongfully called prostitute. No offense intended.

psychic sue	12 Mar 2005
Junia wrote: Time Magazine has cited, as I wrote in another thread, that the Roman Catholic Church (which does have complete archives of its addresses [particularly papal] ) that the RC has traced the MM culprit/myth back to Pope Gregory VI who got the Marys mixed up. It (the Church) has since recanted the position on MM as indeed not the same figure as the prostitute but as the figure who was possessed. For more information check out the feminist Catholics' dialogues at such places as Notre Dame U. (Regina Coll, etc.) and have a look at what these feminist scholars are saying regarding Marionism. And yes it does matter to me that MM was called a wrongfully called prostitute. No offense intended. Thanks for that Junia. I will check this out becuase it is a subject that fascinates me. It also matters to me that she was wrongfully called a Prostitute. It is a bad enough handle to acquire in our "enlightened" society (not that I have anything against Prostitutes - they provide a service and if there wasn't a demand they wouldn't exist - wish the government would give them free health checks and legalise it actually) but in those bad old days it was a terrible things to be called. Thanks again, J, Sue

HudsonGray	12 Mar 2005
"Several have even commissioned Tarot decks!" Which decks were they? It'd be nice to be able to say "____, _____ & _____ were decks actually commissioned by popes." next time someone brings up the stupid phrase about devil's picture books.

SunChariot	12 Mar 2005
Pixie wrote: I am a Christian, but I am in love with the tarot. Well the other day a friend told me I couldn't and wasn't a "faithful christian" if i read tarot. I don't want to compromise my religion, and I don't want to give up tarot! help! -Pixie :( Well, I'm not a Christian but I will tell you what I have learnt and I really think it will apply in this case. All I can tell you is that my Tarot has very much made me feel closer to G-d and the universe, and that It has made me a more patient person, who feels more connected than ever to everyone else around me. And to me, all the lessons I learnt from Tarot are the same lessons that the major religions teach us. So I cannot see any conflict of interest. Bar

Tsuzuki	12 Mar 2005
Pixie wrote: I am a Christian, but I am in love with the tarot. Well the other day a friend told me I couldn't and wasn't a "faithful christian" if i read tarot. I don't want to compromise my religion, and I don't want to give up tarot! help! -Pixie :( Get a new friend.

NightWing	13 Mar 2005
HudsonGray and others: Regarding Popes commissioning Tarot decks, there are records indicating various early Renaissance Popes commissioning/paying assorted artists for what were at the time one-of handpainted decks. If these still exist, some might yet be in the vast Vatican Archives. One contender that some believe was a papal commission is the so-called "Mantegna Tarot", with its distinctive 5 suits. Or Mantegna may have done a completely different deck for the Pope. The decks were likely meant for gaming, rather than cartomancy, but one never knows. Given the Popes' status as worldly princes for many centuries, in addition to leading the Catholic Church, to find them dabbling in tarot along with a great many other things should not be surprising. Prohibitions against cards were made now and again, but Papal Rule underwent many phases over many centuries; sometimes being puritanical and sometimes more liberal or progressive (rather like the history of nations like England or France). I've been in the Vatican Archives. The way they are administered and organized, you get access to only what you have requested in advance and of that, only what has been permitted. There is no such thing as "browsing". This is not unusual for archives really; the Vatican is very cautious because of the extreme age of the materials and the fact that they are irreplaceable in most cases. I can't say that I blame them for their caution. Someone with the reputation of Stuart Kaplan might get access to any tarot decks that may be in their collection, or the "anonymous" author of 'Tarot Meditations', given that the current Pope has read it. But I believe that author to be dead.

NightWing	13 Mar 2005
The point I was trying to make on an earlier posting regarding history and myth (and didn't do a good job of) was that "history" is not recorded completely and fairly by some omniscient recording service. Wish that it were! What there is of "history" is there for a reason; incompletely and unfairly written to reflect well on certain people and nations, and poorly on other people and nations, or to glorify someone or some happening while pushing others into the darkness. Much of it was written down to convey some lesson or other...like the story of Mary Magdalene. We can call her story a myth because there is no other independent support for her existence as a "real" person, beyond the religious texts...which were all written to "teach" various religious lessons. At the time, whether true or not, it served the storywriter(Gregory or whoever) to describe MM as a converted, rehabilitated, "saved" prostitute. It made the change seem more awesome. Today we may find it troubling, and perhaps that part of the story has outlived its usefulness. Perhaps all of the story of MM has long outlived its usefulness as a lesson, though I rather think some feminists are busily rewriting the myth of Mary Magdalene to serve more modern purposes. As with any useful myth, they need to be careful not to throw out the point(s) of the myth, while retaining just some bland accretions. Too much of modern scholarship seems bent on precisely that. If you want to make a modern point, why not write a modern myth (story, history, biography, whatever) ?

SunChariot	13 Mar 2005
psychic sue wrote: THANK YOU similia! Gregory! I'll sleep tonight now! That documentary sounds fascinating. I think I've read that somewhere before actually, about the name Mary. I've also read somewhere that when Jesus was born, the constellation Virgo was prominent in the sky, and this somehow got distorted into the Virgin Birth. Does anyone know anything about that? What I heard was that is was a bad translation as of course the original text we not written in English. That the word for virgin also had the meaning of young woman. When it was translated into English, they chose to translate it as virgin, although it could have just as easily been meant to describe a "young woman". Bar

similia	13 Mar 2005
SunChariot wrote: That the word for virgin also had the meaning of young woman. When it was translated into English, they chose to translate it as virgin, although it could have just as easily been meant to describe a "young woman". The documentary also suggested Mary was likely 12 or so when she gave birth to Jesus. Most girls were married at that age, so its highly unlikely she could of been much older. :eek: The picture of 12 year old dirty street urchin, is a very different than the mature woman in blue silk we usually see.

HOLMES	13 Mar 2005
since january i have barely touched the tarot. not directly related to "can a christian read the tarot." however last night i went to a christian revival meeting, and today i woke up looked at all my tarot books, and i thought to myself i should get up and organize my tarot cards. the message i got was not "throw your evil instruments away and follow me". but instead "let me work through you and pick up your tools you have learned so well" all symbols come from the source, and so in divining the symbols for messages that christ is trying to tell us, or master or angel. we are doing the work of the christ. many times our egos get in the way and so we throw the cards as to provide a sort of halfway point between the divine message, a focus, for which our personalties do not get into the way. recall that christian doens't mean to folllow the ways of the old testment an eye for an eye, going to hell, and judgement. instead it means to follow his ways of loving, forgivness, mercy, and all things that you do this with, he is there to guide you . be it well

jmd	14 Mar 2005
Even if the Mantegna deck was commissioned by a Pope, it is not a Tarot deck - even though some continue to call it such.

psychic sue	14 Mar 2005
HOLMES wrote: since january i have barely touched the tarot. not directly related to "can a christian read the tarot." however last night i went to a christian revival meeting, and today i woke up looked at all my tarot books, and i thought to myself i should get up and organize my tarot cards. the message i got was not "throw your evil instruments away and follow me". but instead "let me work through you and pick up your tools you have learned so well" all symbols come from the source, and so in divining the symbols for messages that christ is trying to tell us, or master or angel. we are doing the work of the christ. many times our egos get in the way and so we throw the cards as to provide a sort of halfway point between the divine message, a focus, for which our personalties do not get into the way. recall that christian doens't mean to folllow the ways of the old testment an eye for an eye, going to hell, and judgement. instead it means to follow his ways of loving, forgivness, mercy, and all things that you do this with, he is there to guide you . be it well I have said this before, but if you are using your skills to help people find peace of mind, how can this be wrong? Personally I don't believe in heaven and hell. The worse place we can possibly be is here on earth.

Junia	14 Mar 2005
Wow-is this thread HOT! I have been away for a few days. I picked up an Eilieen Connolly Tarot Deck and her first book "Tarot : A new handbook for the apprentice." Includes Christian prayers and meditations. The Materialism Card replaces the Devil and Transition Death. (I know someone mentioned this early on in a thread and that is how I found it--thank you). I also have a friend who has a copy of the Tarot Meditations mentioned earlier in this thread written by anonymous and translated from the French manuscript. The meditations are believed to have been a gnostic monk--very Christian oriented. But, way over my poor little State College preparation. I agree with PsychicSue, lordy, what a world we are living in-- what with all the Holy Wars going on. I have to agree with the statement, "finding peace and helping others" which is what we all should be doing regardless of religion and especially because we use the Tarot. It is truly a source to the Divine. Nightwing, I think we DO understand your point and if you are talking about the important part of the story of MM--it would not be that even she could be "saved" because she was a former prostitute; but more miraculously that she was cured of seven demons (possibly mental illness); because of Christ's ministrations to her. It is lesson to all of us regarding our own faith. The only thing Christ said was to "love your God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself." This verse is the only "key" in being a Christian--Tarot or otherwise. HudsonGray--Thanks for your earlier advice to "stump on." It was just what I needed because I was stuck. Love and Cups of Ten and rejoicing to all of you on this day a week before Palm Sunday (sorry, I am not a "tard" honest), Junia

The Hierophant	14 Mar 2005
The Hierophant prescribes that the remedy for this dilemna is a BREAK with "convention." Organized religion has degenerated down to a set of rules. The spirit of Religion is lost but can be found in the Tarot. There is no way to solve Pixie's dilemna without stepping outside"institutionalized" thinking that serves to control people's experience. The Tarot demands independant thought. I see the Tower here just "busting" to be pulled!

Junia	15 Mar 2005
Posted by the Heirophant, " . . . break w/organized religion . . ." I think that is what most of us are saying in this thread. However, Pixie's dilemna cannot just be lightning bolted away. The Tower has already been destroyed for some of us. We are picking up pieces of lost parts of ourselves and trying to integrate them with new ways of thinking. Unless you have been here, you won't understand this part of the Fool's Journey (at least not mine). I wish that it was just that simple.

jmd	15 Mar 2005
Some do indeed suggest a 'break' from established religion, whereas others, such as the author of Meditations on the Tarot suggests a deepening within tradition in order to reach and germinate the spiritual seed or core it holds. Valentin Tomberg also says similar things in a number of his other works, as does, for example, Rudolf Steiner. Sometimes, and for some, the very solidity of structure that tradition offers provides for a means to reach beyond its own signs towards that to which it points. Apart from that so important 'greatest of commandments' mentioned earlier and again importantly most recently by Junia, Christ did mention that, for example,[indent]'For truly I say to you: until the sky and the earth pass away, not one iota, not one serif, will by any means pass away from the Law [torah] until everything is accomplished' (Matthew 5:18)[/indent]

HOLMES	15 Mar 2005
psychic sue wrote: I have said this before, but if you are using your skills to help people find peace of mind, how can this be wrong? Personally I don't believe in heaven and hell. The worse place we can possibly be is here on earth. the best place we can possibly be sometimes is here one earth as well. for i doubt there is love making in other dimensions like we know it on earth. there is nothing like picking up your nephew or neice and sitting next to them while watching a tv show, or buyig that gift that they want in the moment at walmart. nothing like holding the crying friend who has lost their friend. well perhaps there is,, but it is for these precious moments that we come to earth to experience. and why we are endevouring to bring such love, such as the ideals of yeshua to the forfront so the choices that make the world "the worst place we can possibly be" won't occur for we have raised the hearts of the people. and pure humanistic logic that has no care for making money or for power will see how best to use the resources to feed the masses and provide. until then jesus said "if the creator can feed the lillies who toil not , how much more will he feed you ?" and to live in the moment for it is enough. these are message to let go of worries and to embrace the precious moments of life.

psychic sue	16 Mar 2005
Holmes it is a lovely sentiment, but the world is just not like that. People in Africa would argue about your quote - they are starving to death and who is feeding them? Not God. And we in the west are all growing so fat, today's generation of children could die before their parents. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in God, but I really don't think we can literally translate the bible. I know what Jesus was getting at, he was telling us to have faith, which is a good thing. But this Earth is a wicked evil place. My job has shown me the sheer evil there is on this planet (I refer to child abuse and murder) and I sincerely hope that things are better on the other side. Sue

Junia	16 Mar 2005
I am with you PsychicSue. I see a lot of suffering around me and do what I can. But I do believe that your Tarot skills must help you a bit. I worked for a year with drug addicts and criminals. I hope you find some peace and guidance to help you through (not to leave out courage). I believe that when I am most discouraged--like last night--I prayed for one card to help me sleep during the night. I pulled the Devil Reversed. I found one meaning that helped and fit, "spiritual awakening." As for the Tower card, what I meant was yes it does mean destruction of old ideas (especially negative ones), but in every destruction there is a new creation possible. I just meant that none of us are going to be able to just throw away old ideas and notions without a fight from our own selves. I think everyone here is facing that Tower, but, I think we need not throw the baby out with the bath water. Thanks, for posting this Pixie (if you are still here with us). It was obviously needed by all. Hopefully one day we will draw The Sun and all will be set right. Love and Temperance to you all today. Junia

Dave's Angel	16 Mar 2005
Hi everyone First of all I'll stress I haven't read the entire thread as it's just too long for me (sorry).... Although I personally am a Pagan, when I first started studying the Tarot I was Christian, albeit a fading one (!). I'd like to allay the topic starter's concerns by saying that Tarot isn't just a case of mechanically predicting the future based on what appears on the cards. (I know you didn't imply it was, but some people think that way). While some people understandably worry about people getting sucked in by some sort of evil / spooky power in stuff like Tarot, I think the reverse is true - people imagine the Tarot to have *more* power than it really has. The *power* that a decent reading depends on is in ourselves, in how we interact with the reading. What I mean is that when I read the cards, it isn't the cards telling me what will happen unequivocally. Rather, it's a series of little jolts sparking off my subconscious and prompting me to look at the situation in a different light. A sort of Rubik's Cube for the brain. By throwing all these unfamiliar and random images at me, it forces me to turn the matter through different angles to relate it to the cards. In doing so, I can gain fresh insights that would probably never have occurred to me through more traditional means. Jesus spoke in parables constantly, my guess being because it was more fun for his listeners than just explaining something literally. The Tarot is another thing that does this. All his parables and images are homely and familiar, but sometimes they are quite surreal, even humourous - the carpenter with the plank in his eye, the Pharisees "announcing their good works with trumpets". I can imagine some of his listeners laughing at images like this, while thinking "OH my GOD... that is SOOOO like me!!" and mending their ways. Maybe, if they hadn't been able to step outside of reality for a few moments by being "told a story" (which is what a Tarot spread is too), that realisation wouldn't have come. Hope this helps.

psychic sue	17 Mar 2005
Dave's Angel wrote: Jesus spoke in parables constantly, my guess being because it was more fun for his listeners than just explaining something literally. The Tarot is another thing that does this. All his parables and images are homely and familiar, but sometimes they are quite surreal, even humourous - the carpenter with the plank in his eye, the Pharisees "announcing their good works with trumpets". I can imagine some of his listeners laughing at images like this, while thinking "OH my GOD... that is SOOOO like me!!" and mending their ways. Maybe, if they hadn't been able to step outside of reality for a few moments by being "told a story" (which is what a Tarot spread is too), that realisation wouldn't have come. Hope this helps. And of course, Jesus had to tell his stories in a way that simple uneducated people could understand. This is my point. The Bible (for me, no offence to anyone) is a collection of stories written in a way that people of those times could understand. I hope I don't upset anyone with this, but just to illustrate my point :- Adam and Eve and the Asp - for me, this represents man walking upright and growing in intelligence, placing him apart from the other animals. I don't believe that there was a person "ADAM" or "EVE" or a talking serpent. These were just images used for people of that time to understand. Imagine if they had been shown a documentary on the evolution of man? I PERSONALLY believe many stories in the bible are written this way. I believe in God and I believe Jesus was a great teacher and healer, but as usual, once man gets involved it all goes pear shaped. I don't think God (or whatever you want to call him) would endorse us killing each other to prove one religion is better than another. Just my thoughts. Sue Just edited to say, as usual, poor old woman got all the blame in the story of evolution. The snake gets away with crawling on his belly, whilst we have the pain of menstruation and childbirth - ho hum.

psychic sue	17 Mar 2005
Junia wrote: I believe that when I am most discouraged--like last night--I prayed for one card to help me sleep during the night. Junia Thanks J. I take comfort in knowing that I am a part of the process that protects these children. In fact, the opposite things happens - you become de-sensitised. You find yourself talking about a dead baby in very matter of fact way, but it is a defense mechanism I think. If we let it play on our minds, we would go mad. I do think that there is love in the world but I think there is a battle going on with evil - and at the moment, evil is winning. Sue x

Skysteel	17 Mar 2005
I suppose the problem with Tarot and Christianity arises because of some interaction of the following Christian Commandments: "Though shalt take no other God but Me." "Thou shalt worship no false idols." One could be an 'Eclectic Christian', I suppose, but is that really a Christian? Although, weren't those Commandments rescinded in the New Testament? I can never rememeber... - :(

MercyMe	17 Mar 2005
Not a problem...tarot is a tool, not a "god" or even a "godlet." :) ~Mercy

Skysteel	17 Mar 2005
MercyMe wrote: Not a problem...tarot is a tool, not a "god" or even a "godlet." ...but it could be considered a false idol.

Nevada	17 Mar 2005
Here's the most surprising article I've read related to this topic. It describes an Evangelical minister's experience using Tarot in his ministry. http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13596.htm I came across it while doing some Tarot-related research online. Nevada

HudsonGray	17 Mar 2005
Interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about it being used to sideline their churchgoers interest in what they consider the occult, to keep them in the church. There ARE some questions that the individual needs to answer for themselves, not be told what they're supposed to think (even in the interest of 'saving their souls'), but if an individual wants to still do their own searching, I guess they could zig zag around what their councelors tell them. Seems weird to hear so much rah rah gung ho connections to the cards in bible format. I'm not sure they got the right idea about the Hanged Man and the crucifiction... but, if it helps tarot get more mainstream, so much the better.

Nevada	17 Mar 2005
HudsonGray, I had similar mixed feelings, and thought it ironic that he asked in the first paragraph if Tarot was the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing. Nevada

jmd	17 Mar 2005
Interesting article indeed... though it probably reflects the view that in major Australian eastern cities at least (where most of the population resides), Tarot is accepted as more or less normal.

Nevada	18 Mar 2005
Thanks for pointing that out, JMD. I thought more about this, this morning. I realized that even if there's some kind of manipulation involved, it's an opening toward a kind of acceptance (of Tarot at least), and may be well-intentioned. Nevada

Indigo Rose	18 Mar 2005
I applaud the ministers on this Tarot journey. While I may not agree completely with them, they are at least trying to understand something that the traditional "church" has demonized. In addition, they are trying to reach out to people of other faith and offer them the teachings of the Bible; not in the usual judgmental fashion, but by meeting them where there are. Thanks for sharing that with us Nevada.

psychic sue	19 Mar 2005
Skysteel wrote: ...but it could be considered a false idol. I don't think so. I don't "worship" the tarot. All my prayers go to god. Sue x

MercyMe	19 Mar 2005
Skysteel wrote: ...but it could be considered a false idol. Sure, Skysteel, tarot is considered an idol by those who have no idea how it is used, what the cards portray, the history behind it. All they understand and feel they need to know is its association with fortune telling. In that case, I can easily see how tarot is seen as an idol, literally in the Hebrew: a worthless thing. However, there isn't a thing in this world that can't be turned into an idol, even supposedly "good" things in the minds of many Christians. I've seen so many well meaning Christians turn so many "Christian" ideas and practices into idol worship. It all depends on the individual, her motivation, her state of mind, her intention. That's why we are unable to judge one another and therefore ought not to try. We cannot discern another's motives simply by watching what they do. So the pointing out of idols in another's life is a pretty fruitless exercise. That said, I do think that most Christian tarot readers, at least those who were at some point indoctrinated into a fairly conservative sect of Christianity, do search their souls with regard to the tarot. We had been taught one thing and now we are learning another and we try to reconcile the two. We have found tremendous spiritual, mental, and emotional benefit from tarot reading, both for ourselves and others, and we often feel it is the Holy Spirit Herself leading and guiding our intuitive responses and insights. I think we're sometimes plagued with old voices that warn, "Touch not! Taste not! Handle not!" But we're free in Christ to touch, taste, handle, investigate, experiment...LIVE. My point here is that while others may errantly judge our practice of tarot as idolotrous or evil, the final evaluation is in the hands of the Christian who reads tarot. She is the only one who knows her own approach, her own practice, her own thoughts and feelings. Is she using tarot as an idol? Maybe. It's possible because anything can be used that way. But only she knows. ~Mercy

Indigo Rose	19 Mar 2005
MercyMe wrote: ....That said, I do think that most Christian tarot readers, at least those who were at some point indoctrinated into a fairly conservative sect of Christianity, do search their souls with regard to the tarot. We had been taught one thing and now we are learning another and we try to reconcile the two. We have found tremendous spiritual, mental, and emotional benefit from tarot reading, both for ourselves and others, and we often feel it is the Holy Spirit Herself leading and guiding our intuitive responses and insights. I think we're sometimes plagued with old voices that warn, "Touch not! Taste not! Handle not!" But we're free in Christ to touch, taste, handle, investigate, experiment...LIVE.....~Mercy VERY WELL SAID! The old voices are echos of deception intended to take us further away from a loving God. Many well meaning people have fallen victim to the thinking that humanity can earn salvation through sacrifice and punitive living. They impose this mindset on themselves and then preach it to the rest of the world. The problem is that it is FALSE teaching! It actually leads people down a path of spiritual darkness and misunderstanding of God. God made the earth and everything in it. He gives us all of our senses so that we may touch, taste, and feel. He gives us spiritual gifts that we may discern things that are veiled, and learn universal mysteries. This is all ours because our Creator LOVES US....too many people miss this fact because they are stuck in a wrong mode of thinking. The New Testament is just that....NEW!!! It is the testament of The Good News that God loves US! Jesus fulfilled the law that was required. In place of the old law He left us the 2 GREATEST commandents....LOVE GOD with your all, LOVE each other as you love yourself. It all comes down to how we LOVE; plain and simple. As for idolatry, anything can become that in our life. As has been said here, it goes to your intentions and the motivations of your heart; which GOD knows. For me, I feel the Holy Spirit uses the Tarot to communicate with me. It is NOT the Tarot that I worship, but rather my God who graces me with insight and wisdom through it. Blessings, Indigo Rose :)

rabidwolfie	20 Mar 2005
I hope I don't start fights with this statement, but as a former christian, I've noticed that christians have the tendency to make up rules as they go along. "Oh, that's evil because my preacher said so!" "I think the bible say this so we can't do it." And my own personal favorite (And yes, this is a real quote "If it isn't in the bible, it's wrong." On the average, christians are very judgemental. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL of them are, but don't tell me it's an anomoly. I have been in several private schools, mostly getting kicked out because I tend to ask too many questions that they don't have answers for, & around where I live, it's an unspoken taboo to question your religion if it doesn't include how do be more obediant. It tended to make my teachers nervous when I made them think rather than just accept what was norm. Another thing that annoys me about quoting scripture is that the bible has been translated & retranslated as well as hand-written & they find many inconsistencies & mistakes. Especially revelations. But I don't want to start a religious debate. If someone tells you you can not be a devote christian if, mearly tell them that quote about the glass house. Those in glass houses should not throw stones. They should also not nail pictures to the wall. Well, that's basically my 2 cents. Having read the book, I have yet to see anything wrong with being a christian & reading tarot, so long as you do not grow to worship it or let it become as idol.

Nevada	20 Mar 2005
rabidwolfie, you offer a fresh perspective. I've often wanted to ask, when faced with someone who's emphatic about the Bible's inerrancy: "Do you worship God or the Bible?" Nevada

Adjustment	20 Mar 2005
I'm catholic and i don't see anything wrong with reading Tarot. i find very uncomfortable that sometimes i have to hide my tarot books whenever a friend that is very religous visit my house. the reason is that she is married to a minister and once she saw my tarot books on my desk, she told me that they were evil and that i should burn them. I did not want to argue with her about anything so i just tryied to change the conversation and i think that she understood that i did not wanted to talk about my books.

jmd	20 Mar 2005
As a catholic, I would suggest having two Tarot books on the table for your friend to comment on:[indent]Meditations on the Tarot, with the foreword to the German translation now included in the English version; and Mark Hederman's Tarot: Talisman or Taboo? - reading the World as Symbol[/indent] Each is written by well regarded catholics.

Adjustment	21 Mar 2005
jmd wrote: As a catholic, I would suggest having two Tarot books on the table for your friend to comment on: [indent] Meditations on the Tarot , with the foreword to the German translation now included in the English version; and Mark Hederman's Tarot: Talisman or Taboo? - reading the World as Symbol [/indent] Each is written by well regarded catholics. Thank you so much JMD for this link, this is a good one, im going to print this page to have it ready on my desk just for when my friend come over and mention anything negative about tarot.

Junia	24 Mar 2005
I guess I owe the evangelicals an apology--well not the ones that told me, "anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ is going to Hell." I was surprised at any open mindedness regarding Tarot by them. I have read several versions of the Bible and I found a verse that promises that anyone can ask (at least this was how I was taught to interpret this passage) for guidance in any way at any time and expect an answer for themselves, "6. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn back again and rend you. 7. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall fnd; knock and it shall be opened unto you: 8. For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened." The Bible, King James Version. It is sad we have to hide our Tarot Decks from others; but then, don't cast your pearls before swine (which just means to me that although your friends aren't pigs--they can't grasp what you are doing). Somewhere else, if you are watching the unfolding of events on an eschatological level in the world, it says that your sons and daughters will open their mouths with prophesy and the wisdom of God will be poured out liberally amongst all men and nations. Look at the wonderful tool of the Internet (which also may be used for evil). We can talk to people in the U.K. and Austrailia as well as those on the eastern seaboard etc. about the Tarot. Before finding this web site, I despaired at not being able to find kind people willing to help each other. There is an old standard joke that most of you may have heard, "Well, if I am going to Hell, at least I'll be in good company!" Love and Cups of Nine, Junia

Milfoil	27 Mar 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: VERY WELL SAID! The old voices are echos of deception intended to take us further away from a loving God. Many well meaning people have fallen victim to the thinking that humanity can earn salvation through sacrifice and punitive living. They impose this mindset on themselves and then preach it to the rest of the world. The problem is that it is FALSE teaching! It actually leads people down a path of spiritual darkness and misunderstanding of God. God made the earth and everything in it. He gives us all of our senses so that we may touch, taste, and feel. He gives us spiritual gifts that we may discern things that are veiled, and learn universal mysteries. I'm sorry to come so late to this thread but that is so well put. I left the Christian religion many years ago because I could not reconcile my concerns with the teaching I was given. I was even averse to listening to anything related to Christianity, so much had the dogma alienated me. It was only the Tarot and researching other areas of spirituality that has brought me around to a new way of thinking. rabidwolfie wrote: Another thing that annoys me about quoting scripture is that the bible has been translated & retranslated as well as hand-written & they find many inconsistencies & mistakes. Especially revelations. But I don't want to start a religious debate. If someone tells you you can not be a devote christian if, mearly tell them that quote about the glass house. Those in glass houses should not throw stones. They should also not nail pictures to the wall. How beautifully put Rabidwolfie - They should also not nail pictures to the wall - perfect. I have learned more from 3 weeks here than 15 years elsewhere.!!

The can't be a tarot christian? thread was originally posted on 21 May 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.