Nice old dying man.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Belladonna	16 May 2003
I am freaked out a little by an experience I had tonight. I had an appointment with an elderly man to read his cards. He was so sweet, all dressed up, polite. Unlike a lot of the men in this backwards area. The first spread I did for him seemed to speak of an illness, issues of communication, honesty, and forgiveness with particular family members and the ending of a lasting, loving marriage. The second spread I did jumped out in clarity- this man was approaching his death, and I think he knew about it. However, like many people who come to see me, he chose not to speak a word about his situation or ask any questions. But he nodded his head and seemed to relate to what I was saying. It's just that this was the first time I saw anyone's death in their own cards. I was shocked, incredulous, trying to see the cards in a different light, but no matter how hard I looked, I couldn't interpret this any other way. I wanted to tell him I couldn't tell him anything more, but I couldn't turn him away either. I cried when he left. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

littleneptune	16 May 2003
Belladonna--I'm sure you are an awesome card reader, so I say this with the greatest respect...How can you be sure that this man is going to die? I understand that you interpret the reading this way, but is there any chance that you could be mistaken? I mean, until he actually dies, it could be about something else, right? I feel for both your situations, though. This is a horrible situation to face.

Belladonna	16 May 2003
Littleneptune, you're right, of course. I'm obviously not omnipotent. I think what felt like the cincher were the cards indicating HIS understanding of the situation. I didn't come out and say "your dying", but I told him that, from what I saw in the cards, it looked that what was going on in his mind was that he was experiencing his life as a great success, well earned, well done and was now looking at a transition that he felt to be was in the hands of fate, or god, or destiny. That, coupled with illness (and also what I felt was an unwillingness to fight it) and the need to be forthcoming with loved ones, the need to understand his role in past conflicts and forgive and forget. It looked, too, as if his family were going to suffer a physical and emotional loss. I don't know. Sometimes, I feel doubtful of my ability to understand the cards clearly, and sometimes it just jumps out- and this was one of those times. Maybe it's more of a psychic thing sometimes. But I sat there staring at those cards for an embarressing length of time as it dawned on me. I couldn't even think of something to "make up", something just so that I wouldn't have to say what seemed so clear in front of me. I WANTED to see it in another way, but it was like I just couldn't. That's why I wonder if it was more of a psychic thing. It felt as though it was printed in bold capital letters that I couldn't pretend not to see no matter how hard I tried. Ugh, I could feel it in the pit of my stomach, and I was quite shaken up after he left. I'm sorry, I'm just rambling on.

zorya	16 May 2003
((((belladonna)))) assuming you were correct, and you did say you thought he already knew he was approaching death. i think it's a beautiful thing to be able to help someone prepare for their passing. so many fear discussing death, it must be a great comfort to those preparing for it, to have someone to discuss such things with. of course it must be done carefully and i understand how difficult the reading must have been for you. it sounds like you were able to bring up the issues that needed to be brought up without upsetting him. btw, i am going to move this thread to 'talking tarot'.

littleneptune	16 May 2003
Belladonna--call me an eternal optimist, but my philosophy is 'it ain't over till it's over'... Sometimes the cards exquisitely reflect what is on our minds, rather than what is necessarily going to be. Not that your reading was wrong, it may have been a PERFECT reflection of his inner thoughts and feelings, but not necessarily a prediction of his actual demise. My hope is that this is the case for your gentleman client.

MeeWah	17 May 2003
Belladonna: I think ye saw correctly & expressed what was seen appropriately, with discernment & caring. I had a similar experience as a reader at a psychic faire. The client was a fairly young man. Since we were limited to 15 minutes, I was using a 7-card spread. He had no particular question, so I approached his reading with the focus of what did he need to know. After I did his throw, I was stunned by what I saw--a serious illness, domestic problems & death. This was one of the rare occasions where I saw physical death. I was unable to speak for what seemed an interminably long time, trying to see something different but I could not. When I finally looked at him, he had a small smile on his face. I saw Light emanating from certain parts of his body which shocked me as I had never seen such before. I think he knew his time was short & his body was already preparing for passage. I saw a very gentle & spiritual person whose recent life had been of pain & struggle but did not complain. I did not want to speak of endings so I focussed on his qualities & gifts, the general difficulties & the Light that I saw. The rest I forget, but when I was about to refuse payment, he told me it was only right to pay in equal measure for my service & insisted on paying me far more than the flat rate.

jema	17 May 2003
hi i can clearly see what a traumatic reading this must have been. one advice i can give is that no one can ever make you do a reading if you feel uncomfortable doing it. a reading should be a moment of joy and enlightment for both parties. i don't really do predictive readings anymore but i used to as a beginner and yes, i have been in your situation once before. my very first paid reading was for a woman dying in Ewings Sarcoma. it was horrible and even though i never told her straight out - "you will dye and that soon" she could clearly read my face and see what i thought. the good part with this all was that the lady was kind and honest enough to validate this for me, she didn't left me hanging in the air. she told me exactly what she knew (and apologized for making me do the reading without knowing what i was getting in to) what disturbs me in your post above is that you never got that accknowledgment from that man. he left you hanging. you said he was nodding, but i find that almost everyone i read for will nod in agreement wether it is true or not. It is really sad that you couldn't speak about this after the reading. one reason for that could have been that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't all that ready to hear this yet. But you did your very best! i think it sounds like you delivered a hopeful reading despite the grim circumstances. you kept your head all through it and didn't let go of pent up sadness and frustration until after he left. that is respect!

Belladonna	17 May 2003
Thank you all dearly for your kind and thoughtful posts. Jema, I know what you mean about the nodding thing. The thing is, I came to one part of the reading where I was describing a young woman. At that point, he seemed more unsure of what I was saying, and expressed as much in gesture, and in his face. But the rest of the time he seemed to be agreeing. There seemed a funny air about him when he left, too. Almost in a rush, like I'd told him what he'd come here to find out and now he wanted to pay and leave. But not in an upset, or upset way. He was so gentle. I almost would have rathered if he did act as if he thought I were a fraud! MeeWah, this man had the same quality of gentleness and acceptance in him that you seem to be describing of the man at the fair. That more than anything else was so heartbreaking- in a good way. Thank you for sharing your experience with me. It helps. Zorya, thank you for your understanding, I was just a little freaked out last night, I had to write! Littleneptune, despite it all, you've got it- It ain't over till it's over!

sagitarian	17 May 2003
Sweet Belladonna, The gift of sight is always hard, but joyous too. Not in the way you have, but I've seen death represented in the cards as well. In the reading I did, the death was in the past. I didn't even get through the whole reading. The guy broke down in tears and cuddled up in a ball in my lap CRYING HARD into me. He was married, and his wife expecting their first child. One night, they got into a huge fight, they made up, and she asked him to go to the store for them both (to get ice cream). On the way back, she was hit by a drunk driver, he lost her and the baby. I remember CLEARLY in the reading, it was hard to make sense, there were DEFINITELY two souls, but joined together as if one body, and then the death, the end of the energy all together. I briefly saw a car, and a head wound...two souls in one, but it didn't make any sense. Then I looked up at him and said, your wife, she died, and she was expecting wasn't she? You feel it's your fault, that it should've been you, and that's what the message here is. It wasn't your fault, it wasn't you, she had to go. He started BALLING right away and after that, curled up in my lap crying and crying from this hidden guilt that he carried deep in his soul. I know now his wife was trying to talk through me. I dropped the reading at that point, he couldn't listen anymore, all he could do is cry. I felt horrible for him and comforted him as best I could. Afterwards, the reading scared me so much that I put the cards down for a while, for a few years actually. It's only been in the last 6 months that I've started reading again. Anyways, I KNOW what I saw, and I saw death. Death is unmistakable, and I didn't want to see it, but it was there. One thing I believe is that if you are the messenger, the message you have to give will be filtered in it's own way. Don't ever be scared to deliver the message that you are ment to give. You won't tell them anything they don't already know themself, it only gives a person a better focus and perspective on things, but never anything they didn't already know about themself.

Belladonna	17 May 2003
Sagitarian, thank you so much for sharing that with me. I understand your need to put down the cards for awhile. To tell you the truth, if it wasn't for this forum, I think I may have to. To know that you guys are out there, understanding, caring, even critical, is such a comfort. Such a source of relief. The energy coming through was intense. It's more afterwards that the full emotional impact of it hit me- and this case was so gentle, accepting, so POLITE. Your words mean a lot to me. Especially about not being afraind of delivering the message that I see. I understand the responsibility I have, and the caution necessary, but in a case where I see something so clearly and strongly I would feel like I were lying to myself and to him were I to deny it. Love and blessings, Belladonna

DarkElectric	17 May 2003
Hi Belladonna :) It is a hard thing to see death in the cards. I've seen actual death indicated in the cards twice. The first time, it was my ex BF's grandfather. He had terminal cancer. Ex asked me to do a reading for him about his grampa, so I did. Death was not only indicated, it was indicated SOON. I told ex, he disagreed with me, told me the Dr said it would be quite a while in coming, etc. I didn't disagree with him, but later in the week his grampa collapsed in the living room. We took him to the hospital, where he died within two weeks. I saw death indicated again fairly recently, in 2 separate readings. The first one was last fall, for my mom. My dad has been extremely unwell. When I did her reading, there it was, impending death. I told her what I saw, and both of us assumed the death we were preparing for would be my dad. The next time the subject came up was in a reading I had done for myself in late January. Once again, physical death was indicated. I called my mom, because I was all worried about my dad. She said he was fine, and not to worry. I told her to keep an eye on him, I felt something coming, and was really upset about it. She said she would keep me informed. But it wasn't about my dad. About a week later I suffered life threatning uterine haemorrage. By the time I got to hospital, it was nearly too late. My mom was told that it was pretty much the end for me, and to get ready. I made it through with a transfusion and emergency surgery, but my survival had been in serious doubt. When I went over my tarot journal, and realised what I had seen, and who it had actually been about, it freaked me out a little.

littleneptune	18 May 2003
Belladonna--I hope you don't take what I'm about to say as personal criticism for that is NOT my intention, but I still don't believe that a person can see their own death in a reading, as you saw with the nice old man. What I'm hearing from people is a sign of a PAST death, warnings about a POSSIBLE death (if one's health problems are not attended to) and a reading about SOMEONE ELSE'S death. You may believe that this is just semantics, but I believe this is very different from being warned of your own unalterable imminent death. How can we be sure that this wasn't a WARNING about health problems that needed attending to? You yourself said the gentleman was so polite and ACCEPTING of his illness, etc. Maybe the cards were trying to shake him up and get him to take some action!

Belladonna	18 May 2003
Oh My GOD, that would really freak me out, DarkElectric. How did you deal with it? Were you afraid of using the cards at all after that? Wow. What a story! Thank you for sharing that. Much love((((((()))))))and light *******.

Belladonna	18 May 2003
Dear Littleneptune. No offense taken at all! I'm totally open to others' opinions on this. I was shaken up by this reading because that is what I beleived I was seeing. That's why I posted about it, for feedback. The thing is, I wasn't giving him my personal advice, I was only interpreting what I saw in the cards and by putting all of it together, it looked like this man was facing the end of his life soon. I would be "making it up" and giving him my own personal opinion if I told him that this illness was meant to wake him up and do something about it. I saw illness, I saw that he felt he was facing the end of a successful life and was awaiting a great transition that was in the hands of God, I saw the ending of a loving, longlasting marriage, and that the hope a loved one had for him was, while helpful, in vain. The advice for him on how to deal with particular relationships was not mine, it was the message I was interpreting for him from the cards. These are the things I told him. I didn't say "you're dying." But it was a palpable truth between us. But just out of curiosity, why do you think that one could not see their own death in the cards? Isn't it a natural transition we all face in life, albeit at the end of our lives?

littleneptune	18 May 2003
Belladonna--although you may see death as a 'natural transition we all face in life' when it's someone ELSE'S death, I would bet you will not have quite the same placid response when it is your own! Death, for most people, is a terrifying prospect. Except for those contemplating suicide, most DREAD it as the worst possible event, for it is the Ultimate End. Noone (who wants to live) wants to hear that they are dying. And noone needs to hear it, either. Even a doctor can be wrong, as many who have outlived their diagnosis will attest. The subconscious, or the 'tarot gods' or whoever one believes controls the fall of the cards is there, I believe, to give HELPFUL MESSAGES ABOUT LIVING. Eliminating someone's will to live is not a helpful message, no matter how kindly and gently it is done. And furthermore, how could one take the chance to deliver a message such as this when tarot (and psychic powers in general) are such capricious, uncertain and unproveable messengers?

Belladonna	18 May 2003
Littleneptune, I do not mean to sound placid about dying. It is terrifying to consider, certainly. I only question why you think it is an unpredictable transition. How does it differ from other transitions that show up in a tarot reading? And I certainly misrepresented myself if you thought I was being placid or accepting of this man's seemingly impending death. On the contrary, I found the spread to be shocking and heartbreaking, studied it long and hard, searched for other possible interpretations and tried to deliver what I saw in as helpful a way as I thought possible. Like I said, I did not TELL this man that he was dying. I told him, that to me, there looked like an illness and that from what I could interpret from his cards, it looked like HE was the one feeling that he was facing the end of his life. The rest of the spread spoke of relationship issues and that is primarily what I tried to focus on. I don't think this man wanted to fight it, Littleneptune. And I was not about to make up advice for him. I simply delivered the message that I saw. I did not see advice directed towards him to use all his strength to fight this illness, or that the doctor's were wrong, or even that this news was new or horrifying to him. I think that maybe he was ready to face the transition before him and possibly was looking for guidance. I believe I DID give him helpful messages about living, and about preparing his loved ones as well. About taking the chance to deliver this kind of message? Well, that's what people pay me for. I have a heavy respect for the way the cards work and trust in my own intuition. And there's one more thing that I most heartily disagree with you on and that is that Death is the Ultimate end! I know this is an intense subject. I hope there are no hard feelings. Love and light, Belladonna

DarkElectric	19 May 2003
Littleneptune... I was a believer before, and even more so now. In retrospect, I realise that what had been shown to me, personally, in readings for my mom, and myself, was the forecast of my own impending death. Only I didn't know it was MY death being forecast until AFTER the nearly life ending event had occurred. This is the conundrum here. I had no indication that the person to whom this was going to happen was going to be me. However, that's how it turned out, with extreme suddenness. It was completely unexpected. All I can say is that if cards which in my personal frame of reference suggest physical death come up again, I won't blithely rule out the posibility that the message may be for me, the way I did before. With my ex BF's grampa, we knew he was terminally ill. He had been treated for cancer, had called a halt to chemo, because he was all set with it, he knew it wasn't doing any good. We knew he was on the way out, but nobody knew when. I am convinced that it was his death I forsaw in the cards because : 1) My ex specifically asked about his grandfather's failing health. 2) The cards came up, and the irrefutable chain of events subsequently occurred. He died. The poor man was terminal, that was obvious. We just had no idea how long he had, and again, in retrospect, the warning sent by the reading turned out to be a blessing because we were a little more prepared for what followed, and the timing wasn't complete shock to my ex bf. We didn't tell his mom about it, though, Grampa was her dad, and it would have sent her over the edge. So, what I am stating here is that I have observed a phenomenon in which a combination of cards which to me, indicate physical death were drawn in different readings concerning separate events. One death happened, the other, obviously did not. But, as I said before, in my case, it was so close a call that the Dr had told my mom to consider making funeral arrangements for me, and even though I'm Wiccan, somehow there was a Priest there to give me the last rites. Which he was unable to do because I was whisked into surgery so fast he couldn't locate me. I wouldn't say that I placidly accepted the fact that I was going to die. Hell no. When I knew I was being offered that opportunity, I staunchly refused to go. I was on that line, and wouldn't cross it. So here I am to recount my exeriences with cards, and death. And I'm not freaked out about it now, because, well, I'm not dead. And I may be in some weird denial that comes along with the concommitant twentysomething mentality of being immortal. Or maybe I'm just a strange little girl. I'm not scared of cards, I'm not scared of death. What scares me is the thought of living death, which for me would entail being entombed in a boring life. In that case, the physical alternative would be welcome.

littleneptune	20 May 2003
DarkElectric--with all due respect, the cards did not predict your own death, because you did not die.

DarkElectric	20 May 2003
Littleneptune, No, I didn't. But I would have if I had let it happen. The condition which I was discounting in it's importance was going to kill me, no question. Even though I didn't know that. And it quite nearly did. The odds were more against my survival than in favour of it by the time I got treatment. It's also a reminder that cards, like meteorologists, forecast, rather than predict. There's an important and subtle difference in the meanings of those words, no matter what a thesaurus may tell us. I remember one of the worst snowstorms we ever had around here was on a day that was supposed to be sunny, according to the forecast. In this respect, I feel that the cards did indeed, forecast impending death, and it just happened to be mine. As I said, I could have let it happen. It was basically, up to me which way it went. So, the question remains, did the cards forcast the death which was actually predicted by the physicians, but didn't happen, or did they not, because the suggested death did not occur? Chicken? Egg? Basically, what I see here is a difference of opinion. Yours, that the cards did not forecast my death, and mine, which alleges that they did. I agree to disagree. I always tell clients, cards merely suggest possibilities. Nothing is carved in stone. (no pun intended)

Belladonna	20 May 2003
DarkElectric, I believe the cards WERE forecasting your death, as you say. It's so interesting to see how the cards "pick up" the energy we carry with us or find ourselves within the midst of. Fascinating, too, to see how those currents of energy CAN be changed. Thank you so much for your story!

HOLMES	20 May 2003
we say to so many people THE TAROT DOESN'T PREDICT DEATH. THERE IS NO DEATH CARD, but as we can see sometimes it does. for myself i was asked by my grandma, and two aunties about my poppa who was chronically sick for years with a weak heart, bad lungs, it is only a testment to his will that he lived so long *sniff* back to the post. so i layed out the cards, but i for the life of me cant' remember what they were, all i remember was saying by spring he will be healed, and that he knows, deep down. my nana, the only time she ever got a reading by me said that was all i needed to know. *that was the only exception to the rule i have,, which is i dont' do death or birth* he did pass that spring,or just after a few weeks after. sometimes we do a reading and the client doens't tell us nothing,, i predicted what ever problems you have now , they will be gone after this weekend i think. my friend that weekend took his own life, and i had to take a while to get over that. i am sure he had his mind made up but i am sure that some area of my tarot reading influenced him. that is when i became extra careful still when we read for someone we never know how they will really react once they leave us, or what they are thinking.

Belladonna	20 May 2003
Wow, HOLMES, that is really heavy. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I read somewhere about an experiment done in the field of quantum physics that proved that the observer could not observe purely objectively, without influence on the subject of the experiment itself (I believe it was a molecule of an atom.) And as we at Aeclectic know well, as above, so below or perhaps in this case, as below, so above. I in NO way imply that you were responsible for your friend committing suicide. Please don't take it to mean that. I, too, have experience with a friend committing suicide. Nothing to do with Tarot, but I wonder what part I did or did not play in his death. You have offered us a sober reminder of our responsibiliy when reading for someone. Thank you. Much love. (((*)))

alexisyael	27 May 2003
we all die. It's just a fact. And we can die now, or we can die later, but there's really nothing to get all worked up about (imo, at least). And if you think there is, may I suggest you do some intense thinking about why it scares you so much? BUT... Lots of people don't want to hear about it, much less even contemplate their own deaths. And you gotta respect their fear as a reader. Push it as much as you can ("No, you don't get to just completely ignore your Dr., you need to deal with your stress and calm down cause this is making your symptoms much worse..." -- this is a quote from an actual reading I once did! And there was another Dr. in the tent -- a friend -- and later he told me this was exactly what this woman needed to hear) but there's only so much you can tell someone before they shut down. It is totally unethical to say, "You will die later this week..." but also totally unethical NOT to say "if you don't stop doing X, there are consequences." On the other hand... there are many people, older and younger, who are preparing for death -- preparing themselves, and their families. And I can definitely see a tarot reading pointing that out. Sometimes, it's a great thing, like my friend's dad who preped his whole family for his death earlier this year. It's been terrible for them, but at least they had some preparation. Other times, it is tragic, and not well thought out, in the case of suicide. It behooves us to take a look at these signs and talk about them as honestly as we can. I don't believe in a fixed future. Except for one thing: death. We all die. But it's not my job to tell anyone when, just to help you focus on what to do differently, to live (and die) better. It seems to me your reading with the sweet old man, Belladonna, was a good one. One where you connected to him significantly, and that's always nice, even if it's bittersweet in this case. sorry for the long rambling... this is a subject I can be very passionate about, as someone who's had several near-death experiences. alexis yael

missmezzo	11 Jun 2003
very interesting thread. Sagitarian, Belladonna, DarkElectric - I was just curious - what cards came up in the readings where you saw these deaths predicted? The 10 of swords? The Tower? The actual death card? (but I know - this card doesn't really mean death). :-) Sagitarian - I'm particulary interested in which cards appeared in your reading for the young man who lost his wife and child - very tragic. It sounds like you have a remarkable gift, though. You said "there were DEFINITELY two souls, but joined together as if one body, and then the death". I'm so curious what cards showed you that. I'm just asking for my own education in learning to read the tarot. Thank you for your time. missmezzo p.s. You know, after my mother passed away, I would *consistently* get the three of swords in almost every reading. I had just picked up the tarot again after many years, and didn't really understand the meaning. I wasn't laying the cards in any formal spread - just kind of three, four card readings. Anyway, I kept reading three 3 of swords as some sort of love triangle and romantic heartache. I realize now it was just showing me the grief of losing my mom.

Belladonna	12 Jun 2003
Hi Missmezzo, It's been awhile since that reading and I see lots of people. Frankly, I don't remember the exact cards that were laid out. But I know it wasn't any of the cards you mentioned. It was not the actual death of the man that seemed to be depicted. It was more like a whole story leading up to that conclusion. I remember seeing a strong and lasting marriage that was approaching its end, a need to be forthcoming about an illness within that marriage and also to other family members. There seemed to be a picture of a grieving and solitary woman in the near future, although this had the feeling of being more a warning (perhaps to be forthcoming about his illness and prepare his loved ones for what seemed to be pending) It looked as if he was feeling as if he had had a long and successful life, but was approaching a transition and all of this was cloaked heavily in his religious faith. There were other things, like a particular need to forgive a young man about a mishandled financial venture...A need to reconnect to an emotional granddaughter. These things seemed to have a time limit on them, too. A now or never feel. It was only well into the reading that I had this Aha feel. Like, oh, now I understand what is happening here... Anyways, wish I could be of more help concerning the individual cards. Just wanted to emphasise the point, though, that it wasn't one card indicating one incident. It was a multifaceted story, or picture of his life, including what seemed to be going on internally.

missmezzo	12 Jun 2003
Hi Belladonna - Thank you for your response. Even though you don't remember the exact cards, your additional information about the reading does give me insight on how the cards work together to tell a story. I find it interesting sometimes the cards will give unconventional meanings depending on the reading. missmezzo

The Nice old dying man. thread was originally posted on 16 May 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.