To amateurs and Pros

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

theman_ca	28 May 2003
Im curious to know to what degree of accuracy people can manage to reach when giving a reading. do you find that your truthfully just giving out generalities and that the querent is just taking that generality and applying it into whatever it fits best in their life. . . or do you get very specific and to what degree, can u tell someone that in the middle of july u will meet a special partner. What aids you in getting specific, what outside knowledge do you apply to the cards?

Two of Wands	28 May 2003
I love studying Tarot, getting all I can from the images and meanings of cards in different decks, leaning and leaning and learning about the history of Tarot, and the ideas behind different decks. I also like using it as a counceling tool both for myself and others. Occasionally, as part of this, I do readings, but I must admit that my readings are very general, and although sometimes it helps me to see a path that I hadn't thought of, I've never seen anything more specific into the cards ever, I really am just not phyic like that at all. There are others though that wil claim of quite facsinating insights from the Tarot and they are clearly able to tap into something taht I am not. I think real phycic ability with the cards is a very developed or gifted skill. As I do not have it, but still love Tarot and know a good deal about it, I have to find other ways of filling my hours with Tarot. And it's nearly as good, but I do sometimes envy those who truly seem to be able to go the extra mile with it. Now howz that for honesty!

theman_ca	28 May 2003
Wow thats very honest of you :). but along the lines of phycic wat does it mean to be phycic, how do you know, are there any out there who would be willing to respond about how the found that they were phycic.

DarkElectric	28 May 2003
I can only speak for myself, mind you, it's different for everyone. I don't provide information as to specific dates, times, or give physical descriptions of persons in card readings. But I see patterns of information in the readings I give people which indicate certain life conditions are occuring. What I've noticed is that people's readings indeed tap into what they are experiencing in life and that there is something which guides my intuition to interpret the reading properly, so as to facilitate an individual "diagnosis", if you will. So it isn't just a vague generalisation which could apply to anyone. It's a bit more specific than that. It's apparent that I posess a degree of psychic ability. In my case, I seem to experience it as a heightened sense of intuition, personal interaction with what I see as energies or forces if you will, which feel electromagnetic in nature to me. It's somewhat difficult to explain what it is, hard to put it into words.I can transmit, receive, and what is refered to as 'manifest". My great gramma called it "The gift of sight" whereas she was able to know things no one had told her, or see outcomes of events which later ocurred. I carry this same double edged gift. There's more to mine than I know about right now, I'm still investigating what it is, what it does, and how it works. I use and develop it as much as I can. I've been this way all of my life. It only seems to get stronger as I get older. It scares me sometimes, but I don't try to repress it at all. I just don't tell a lot of the things I pick up during readings, to clents. In fact, I don't discuss a lot of what I receive on what I call the "Sub Sonic" with anyone, whether I'm doing a reading or not. Usually when I don't divulge something to a client, the next time I see them they start telling me all about the event I didn't mention which has come to fruition. Oh, and I would say my degree of accuracy, at least so far, has been high. Doe this make it any clearer, or obfuscate things even more?

ArwenNightstar	28 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by theman_ca Im curious to know to what degree of accuracy people can manage to reach when giving a reading. do you find that your truthfully just giving out generalities and that the querent is just taking that generality and applying it into whatever it fits best in their life. . . or do you get very specific and to what degree, can u tell someone that in the middle of july u will meet a special partner. What aids you in getting specific, what outside knowledge do you apply to the cards? When I read on the 1-900 line, I found myself giving accurate information as in "you just got money from a relative. A male relative. Not a father.. maybe a grandfather. No, a great uncle". That is nearly to the word what I said to someone in a blind over-the-phone reading. No question, no nothing. I have been able to "see" past deaths or upcoming accidents. I told a friend recently to beware of fire and her stove flamed up on her three days later. (For me the Sun reversed is often a sign of possible fire problems). The cards, to me, are tools that open up my psyche. I have always been able to "see" and "hear" things from others. Tends to freak them out a bit, but I have learned in 42 years that you don't always say what you hear. GRIN! If I am doing a timed reading, then I can be very specific about times. There are spreads you might like to play with for that. Let me know!

Two of Wands	28 May 2003
Hi Dark, I think what you have is very exciting. I know what you mean when you say it's scary sometimes, I guess at times it must seem like that; but I think the fact that it is developing as you get older, just shows that it is something that you need to explore and make the most of. From the conversations I've had with you, I'm sure you shall do that successfully. :) A.

ArwenNightstar	28 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric It scares me sometimes, but I don't try to repress it at all. I just don't tell a lot of the things I pick up during readings, to clents. In fact, I don't discuss a lot of what I receive on what I call the "Sub Sonic" with anyone, whether I'm doing a reading or not. Usually when I don't divulge something to a client, the next time I see them they start telling me all about the event I didn't mention which has come to fruition. DarkElectric (*I love that handle, btw), what you say jives with much of what I know to be true of myself. I have learned not to tell all I see. I didn't at first and it was ... unpleasant for myself and those concerned. One thing, if you don't already do it, is to maintain a private, dated journal of this "extra" information.

theman_ca	28 May 2003
Do you ever tell the questioneer , what they want to here as aposed to the little bit of extra u pick up. and i have a question for those with this extra insight, i am currently younge and new to tarot, im am always trying to gain further knowledge, at times I will get a feeling of insticnt where i can feel that something is going to happen and i can sometimes even summerise it, and i either usually dissmiss it and then within a lil time that original instict will turn out to be 100% correct, this has happened 10 times at least, anyone have any advice on what i should do about this. or maybe its just dumb luck.

Two of Wands	28 May 2003
For what it's worth. I reckon if you are developing insight, then don't repress it! I'm sure one of the reasons why I don't believe that I have good insight is that I went into Tarot too academically when I first started out and never trusted any intuition I was getting. As a result I think I killed what little intuition I had, rather than develop it. Don't repress, explore what you think you are seeing, as long as you don't hurt or worry anyone else while you are exploring what is that you have!

theman_ca	28 May 2003
thank you, so how do i go about listening to this insight?

ArwenNightstar	28 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by theman_ca Do you ever tell the questioneer , what they want to here as aposed to the little bit of extra u pick up. and i have a question for those with this extra insight, i am currently younge and new to tarot, im am always trying to gain further knowledge, at times I will get a feeling of insticnt where i can feel that something is going to happen and i can sometimes even summerise it, and i either usually dissmiss it and then within a lil time that original instict will turn out to be 100% correct, this has happened 10 times at least, anyone have any advice on what i should do about this. or maybe its just dumb luck. Hmm. Good question and my best answer is that I play it by ear. You can tell (after you learn, hee) who needs to hear it and who doesn't. Plus, I have purposefully not told someone something and then had them directly ask me the question I had the answer too. If they are going to be freaked out by a message from a dead relative (yeah, I do the Whoopi thing sometimes) then I try to handle it in a very mild way. It's a learned thing really. I do find that if you see death or illness then it is best served softly. I will tell them to make sure they tell the people important to them that they love them. Or to go get a check up because that pain they are feeling might need a doctor's attention. Of course, I start ALL my readings out with a reminder that the cards (when used for divination) are not set in stone. They are guideposts on the map of life. If you are shown what exits are ahead, then you can choose to take them or not take them. That's my personal take on it.

HudsonGray	28 May 2003
Accuracy? It usually is something that strikes you about a particular card or cards. The last one that surprised me was a reading I was doing for someone online that was trying to sell her house for the last 6 months & it wasn't going--I knew the first serious people who put a bid on it had their financing fall through, just from the cards (she verified that yes, that happened), but when I looked at the 'need to know something' position it had the Page of Wands in it, and the second card I put down to clarify was the Page of Pentacles. First I took it that the realtor wasn't pushing the house properly (that Page does all the 'announcements') but seeing the two together I told her that I think it's literal, that the 'pages' are wrong, she needed to check her listing for the house. Turns out she emails me back the next day saying the realtor was presenting the house as much bigger than it was & that was turning people off instead of letting the charm of the house work on them, AND the realtor wouldn't put the square footage of the house into the listing despite 3 requests by her to do so. So both interpretations were right. She switched realtors & the house moved in less than a week.

sagitarian	30 May 2003
My readings (for the most part) are VERY detail and specific. I've detected problems in people physically (and I never met them before) due to an area of the body that is attracting my eyes. I somehow just "know" when the cards are refering to their work, family or otherwise (btw, I mostly use the FAery Oracle deck by Brian Froud which has no suits, so I'm not going off of pentacles for earth work, or cups for relationship, etc.). For me it's partly listening to my intuitive side, but mostly with the faery oracle, it's also listening to the faery guides that automatically come with this deck. For example, the future faeries, it has a lot of faeries in it, and most of the time, at least 3-4 faeries will have a special message to the person. When I did a reading for my sister, she described it as having a conversation with the whole community of faery's, vs just the one card having one message, there were multiple seperate messages in the one card. So (for me) I include my medium abilities in talking to the faeries directly for the messages being given, as well as using the empathy (which is what cards develope or block) to do the readings.

Khatruman	30 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by theman_ca can u tell someone that in the middle of july u will meet a special partner. What aids you in getting specific, what outside knowledge do you apply to the cards? See, now thinking of it like that, to me, would be like thinking of literature as this: "Tell me, what does Yeat's poem The Second Coming mean?" "Well, it means modern society will collapse on December 30, 2005 and will be replaced by the new regime from the third world." There are so many shades and ideas and meanings and depth in a reading that it isn't going to be accurate in a mathematical sense, measurements and proofs. To reduce tarot to simply an accurately telling of what is going to happen in the future and when is like reducing the world to a map, you can spot all the places and name them, but you aren't living in it.

ArwenNightstar	30 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman There are so many shades and ideas and meanings and depth in a reading that it isn't going to be accurate in a mathematical sense, measurements and proofs. To reduce tarot to simply an accurately telling of what is going to happen in the future and when is like reducing the world to a map, you can spot all the places and name them, but you aren't living in it. Agreed, but there are spreads that are designed specifically for timing questions like the one theman_ca proposed. I would use the Witches Wheel or a 12 month Year Wheel for something that focused.

MeeWah	31 May 2003
theman_ca: Each reader has an individual approach & understanding which impact how the cards are perceived. Based on personal experiences only--I would have to say that the rate of accuracy can be quite high, even startling. There are occasions when moreorless definitive or specific information can be gleaned; others when it is of a general nature. The latter does not necessarily exclude its appropriateness. It may or may not depend upon the nature of the situation & the querent. The method of divination used may have an impact, but I have seen similar accuracy occur with non-Tarot methods. Physical or health conditions, past life influences or other matters not included in a query have "appeared". Since I tend to see the cards in layers of meanings, that may be involved in the results. The clarity with which a query is expressed also impacts.

Umbrae	31 May 2003
Reading is an art, and not a science. It cannot be reduced to a simple formula (“Use this spread for timing”). Results vary (Picasso never painted like Mozart). A while back I did a reading for a chap…the first cards in the spread was the 5 of Pentacles occluded by The Sun. It was everything I could do not to shout, “You toad! You got caught chippying on your wife!” He did and was. You don’t learn that by reading books. You learn that from reading cards.

Trogon	31 May 2003
Howdy theman_ca, You've already stirred a great deal of discussion about the accuracy of Tarot readings and the whys and wherefores of how we might achieve this accuracy. Good questions... lots of good answers. For me, I find that my greatest accuracy seems to be in delving into the person's past and present situations. I've spotted divorces, winning of money, loss of a job, having just gotten a new job, and - one of the hardest to see - having been abused as a child. These have been, for me, all intuitive things - triggered by the pictures on the cards being used at the time. When it comes to looking at their futures, my intuition seems to come and go a bit. Sometimes I can get fairly accurate ("a car accident in the next couple of weeks" - turned out to be her brother, not seriously injured though). Sometimes I end up being more general. In fact, I find that more often than specific occurances (such as the accident) I find the Tarot and, by extension, myself, getting advice or cautions for the querrent. Things such as "you'll be needing to strongly take on the role of 'father' in your household - have a family meeting to discuss the situation to allow your children to feel they're taking part in the decision - but you'll still need to follow your heart and head and make the decision yourself". As for telling the person all that you see... well... there's telling and there's telling, isn't there? I mean, you can say to the person; "I see that you, or someone close to you, will be involved in a car accident." Or you can say; "I feel that there's going to be some issue with a car - perhaps a break-down or maybe an accident. I don't necessarily feel that there will be any serious injury, but you should take precautions... have someone check your car's brakes, alignment, fluids and so forth - just make sure there's nothing mechanically wrong with your car." (The second one was what I used.) When a very sensative issue comes up in a reading, I feel that it is an issue which needs to be addressed - otherwise, it wouldn't have come up... would it? But you can still be kind, caring, understanding and supportive for the person. If its something that is coming up and may be frightening, it should be discussed - but you should try to do it in a way that your client won't be terrified, but rather forewarned. I, personally, don't like to hide things from my clients. But that's just me. Quote: Originally posted by theman_ca thank you, so how do i go about listening to this insight? Ah... Now there's the difficult part. I personally believe that most, if not all of us (humans) are born with some of this ability (psychic ability, sixth sense, clairvoyence, whatever you want to call it), but for most of us it's trained out during childhood. The hard part is reconnecting with it. The Tarot can allow us to make that connection. How do you do it? Study, practice, meditation, practice, opening yourself to the feelings you have, practice, practice, practice. I have found that studying the Tarot and opening myself to the feelings the pictures stirred within me, was the first step to making that connection. But it wasn't actually the first step I took... I began trying to learn the Tarot by rote memorization. It didn't work. It wasn't until after I'd connected with the other people here at Aeclectic Tarot and began discussing so many different aspects of Tarot that I began connecting to the Tarot in an intuitive way. I'd made other connections within myself over many, many years, but the Tarot allows me to connect myself to other people in a way I couldn't before. I also started connecting in a much stronger way after I'd picked up my second Tarot deck and doing a comparative study between it and my first Tarot deck. But anyway... how to go about connecting with that insight within yourself? To be honest... I'm not really sure. I've sort of explained how it worked for me... but that is an extremely truncated version. But I would say, the first thing you should do is open your own mind to the fact that this ability does exist in you. Because, without that acceptance, you won't be able to make the connection. After that you'll need to excercise that ability... so, as I jokingly said above... "practice, practice, practice." Actually doing Tarot readings, for me anyway, is how I excercise the ability and strengthen it and hone it. I hope my ramblings have been somewhat helpful...

ArwenNightstar	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon Ah... Now there's the difficult part. I personally believe that most, if not all of us (humans) are born with some of this ability (psychic ability, sixth sense, clairvoyence, whatever you want to call it), but for most of us it's trained out during childhood. The hard part is reconnecting with it. One of the ways I talk about this is that as a child our mind is similar to a seive in that we have these holes we can escape through (daydreaming) or receive information through (psychic abilities). But adults who don't understand teach us to block those holes. "No honey you don't have an imaginary friend." "Oh honey, I am sure you wish your grandma had come to tell that she loves you last night but she died yestereday" et cetera, et cetera So we have to learn how to believe in ourselves again. I don't think adults did it to be mean. Far from it. They were told it was wrong when they were little so how can it be right now? Playing "intuition" games with friends can help as well.

theman_ca	01 Jun 2003
Wow thank you for all the information.. . it was trully insiteful ( pun intended) :)

firemaiden	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae A while back I did a reading for a chap…the first cards in the spread was the 5 of Pentacles occluded by The Sun. It was everything I could do not to shout, “You toad! You got caught chippying on your wife!” The Five of Pentacles occluded by the Sun. That is a poem by itself, Umbrae....occluded by the Sun. I love the oxymoron, and I have an idea you might be referring to a beautiful Masonic (and Crowleyian) idea that the light of the sun can blind one to the deeper reality beneath. (e.g. the Thoth High Priestess enshrouded by her veil of light) The Five of Pentacles -- I can see how that might indicate "chippying" (another new word for me, is this Brit slang? or slang of the desert sun? but never mind, no need to explain)- after all you have a shut door, perhaps a party going on inside, and a couple shut out in the snow. Ooo, ooh! What is going on behind that door? Aha! And here is the Sun to shine in your eyes, and prevent seeing what is behind that door! But ... the putting of it all together to read: "You toad! You got caught chippying on your wife!" -- Umbrae, do you have any idea how this message managed to fling itself at you ?

krysia322	01 Jun 2003
Good Morning, All! :) Just finished reading through this thread in its entirety... What a marvelous discussion! Many wonderful mental notes taken and filed away for reference... I'm only just now trying to read the cards solely with intuition and without checking or confirming with "the book"... And I've gotta say... It's a scary process; to let go of the safety net. :) Nothing but respect for those of you who can do it and even more so for those of you who can do it and do it well, LOL! ;) It is certainly not as easy as some of you make it sound! ;) But you know? I'm loving it. And working with the cards in this way, I find myself using my Ancient Egyptian deck... it seems much more... I don't know. Open? with sharing of itself without too much friffy stuff to clutter the thought process. Hm. :/ Didn't exactly express myself eloquently with that last paragraph, but hopefully you all know what I'm trying to say, lol... I am curious about the whole "To tell or not to tell" issue... In this thread, I've read both sides... Personally, I agree with Trogon in that forewarned is forearmed, so to speak, and I know that for myself as the querent, I want to know everything, be it good or bad, ugly or sad, righteous or mad... I know part of this is me not liking the thought of anyone knowing more information that concerns me than I do. LOL... And also, omitting information seems... I don't know. Not right somehow in that you were given that info for a reason... But perhaps that's just me. It's my understanding that when the reader doesn't divulge all, it's because the instinct is that the querent might be too fragile or something, or just not ready. And from this thread, the reader can tell when a querent isn't ready... But why, how, and when is this beneficial?

Cerulean	01 Jun 2003
To the one who reads with the Ancient Egyptian deck...do you mean Clive Barrett's? Does it work for reading with others? I've so far only played with it in reading for myself. If you mean any of the Lo Scarabeo Egyptian decks, I've enjoyed the art and am uncertain how to read for others using such decks. I'm still practising, but I've only been able to use some of the Marseilles-style, Thoth and RWS workalikes. Thanks, Mari Hoshizaki

krysia322	02 Jun 2003
Quote: To the one who reads with the Ancient Egyptian deck...do you mean Clive Barrett's? Does it work for reading with others? I've so far only played with it in reading for myself. Mari Yes to both questions. :) I find it to be a straight-forward deck. Which, of course, is nice when looking for straight-forward answers. :)

Trogon	03 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by krysia322 Just finished reading through this thread in its entirety... What a marvelous discussion! Many wonderful mental notes taken and filed away for reference... I'm only just now trying to read the cards solely with intuition and without checking or confirming with "the book"... And I've gotta say... It's a scary process; to let go of the safety net. Hmm... well... I must admit, with some chagrin, that I haven't entirely let go of that "safety net". :| Occasionally, I find that I look at a card and I get a definite impression... an idea of what the card is telling me. However, I might have trouble forming the thought, the idea, into words which can convey this in a meaningful way to the querrent. In this case, I'll refer to my notebook/journal in which I have written my thoughts, interpretations, impressions, and so forth on the cards in general. This usually helps me to focus my thoughts into words with which to communicate to the querrent. Gee... hope this doesn't knock me too far down in the Tarot hierarchy... :eek:

krysia322	03 Jun 2003
Quote: Gee... hope this doesn't knock me too far down in the Tarot hierarchy... There's a tarot hierarchy? Oh dear. LOL I guess that would put me at tarot... serf. ;)

fairyhedgehog	03 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by krysia322 There's a tarot hierarchy? Oh dear. LOL I guess that would put me at tarot... serf. ;) What's the one below serf? I don't even read for other people ... :D

Alex	05 Jun 2003
it is the reader. Some people can do very accurate readings. Some people can say things that are helpful, but as you said, it doesn't go beyond generalities. Locate a good reader, have him/her read for you. You don't have to go far. There are a few in this forum. It's worth the price, if you have to pay: that will give you a real experience of the power of the Tarot. As with anything, it needs however, a good and experienced "driver". Alex.

Two of Wands	05 Jun 2003
Alex, I completly agree with eberything you just said. My only problem has always been knowing how you find the REALLY gifted readers, who are the only ones I REALLY want to be paying my money to.

HudsonGray	05 Jun 2003
If we knew that, we'd have our own crystal ball I think. Other than feedback from people who went to the different readers, it's all guesswork till you sit down in front of them & plunk your monies down.

mags@Treadwells	08 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Reading is an art, and not a science. It cannot be reduced to a simple formula (“Use this spread for timing”). Results vary (Picasso never painted like Mozart). You don’t learn that by reading books. You learn that from reading cards. Nice one, Umber. That's my pproach, completely. xmagsx Keep it real..

mags@Treadwells	08 Jun 2003
ok - edited this one to death. just not worth it, mate.

Niove	17 Jun 2003
theman_ca: I think this question makes a good exercise for exploring one's ideas of accuracy and generalization. I agree with others that reading the Tarot is an art, and there are many concepts used that are not given proper credit, but this is for another post.... This post does not have anything to do with reading for others, but reading for oneself. In my fourth year of studying the Tarot, I am still in the process of getting to know it. I realize there are many ways one can do this... Recently, I experienced one event where I was able not to manage, but to "discover" a degree of accuracy worth keeping in mind; however, this experience did not seem relevant to my original reading. The clarity with which a query is expressed also impacts. - Meewah It was an image that caught my attention on one of the cards. That object caught my attention because it was relevant to a part of my life at the time, and not to the question of the reading. (When reading for others, being drawn to an object of relevance can be a difficult task.) The concept of the card was the second factor which held relevance. Although the card did not appear to answer my original query, it was the clarity of the object on the card that made an impact on me. So I may be reversing a little bit of what Meewah said. Bare with me if you feel a headache coming on at this point, LOL... My betta had developed Dropsy, a symptom of liver damage in fish that can be fatal if not treated early. As a child, I had some experience with keeping fish, but as a young adult, I have only begun to understand that taking care of a fish is just as much a responsibility as taking care of a cat, or a dog. Pets need attention, they cost money, and they cost more if they become ill and need treatment. Unaware of the illnesses fish can develope, I did not figure out that something was wrong with mine until the symptoms had advanced. I decided to treat him, but I heard from an expert that such an illness "never goes away," although the medication seemed to suggest that it could. This was my first time trying to figure out what was wrong with my fish, and how to treat him! About five days into his treatment, I did a personal reading on myself, which was a relationship reading. It had nothing to do with the fish. The method of divination used may have an impact, but I have seen similar accuracy occur with non-Tarot methods. - Meewah I think this may be very true. I used the Crowley Thoth deck for this reading, which I consider a mostly abstract deck, (except for the Majors) as opposed to the Rider-Waite deck. In the third position, the fish on the Death card caught my attention. Charlie, I thought (and that was his name), was going to die. I did not want to believe it and chosing to deny the power of such an outcome, I kept a positive attitude. Three days later, he died after a water change. It was Friday, the thirteen during the thirteen hour (one o' clock). Now, this seems like your classic case of supersition, but is it? I don't know. There are occasions when moreorless definitive or specific information can be gleaned; others when it is of a general nature. - Meewah For this occassion, the whole "pay-attention-to-the-image-you-are-drawn-to" routine held significance, and greatly affected the degree of accuracy for the association (death and fish). I'm not sure how much of a degree intuition played here, or if it even played a part at all. I think not only does the visual representation of an abstract idea hold concrete value (i.e. the fish), but so do numbers. The numbers thirteen and three were patterns of time and space (i.e., third position, three days, the thirteen). Sometimes accuracy does not depend on these kinds of factors or on this many. The concept of the card (Death) was a factor in accuracy as well. I know this is only one idea coming from many. I am not psychic, but I am able to associate and put two and two together when I find these factors to be relevant. If it was in fact a coincidence, I may never know, but it seemed important to be alerted to the fish on the Death card, in the end anyway.

mags@Treadwells	17 Jun 2003
Hi all =- might as well post it here, as nowt doin in ANY of my threads at mo - baba-prague (tarot designer EXTRAORDINAIRE, reader, brill person) CAME UP TO SEE US AT TREADWELL'S. Wow - we were all SO chuffed she made such a long journey - will be a while before I stop enthusing, I think. Her/their new pack ("Tarot of Prague" - see her website) is AMAZING and I've ordered my pack. Amazing exp., & we had such an interesting conversation about what it's LIKE reading tarot cards for other people. Hope some of you on here/out there get out there and meet some of the others on here 9lol - hope that makes sense) mags

Astra	19 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by krysia322 I am curious about the whole "To tell or not to tell" issue... In this thread, I've read both sides... Personally, I agree with Trogon in that forewarned is forearmed, so to speak, and I know that for myself as the querent, I want to know everything , be it good or bad, ugly or sad, righteous or mad... I know part of this is me not liking the thought of anyone knowing more information that concerns me than I do. LOL... And also, omitting information seems... I don't know. Not right somehow in that you were given that info for a reason... But perhaps that's just me. It's my understanding that when the reader doesn't divulge all, it's because the instinct is that the querent might be too fragile or something, or just not ready. And from this thread, the reader can tell when a querent isn't ready... But why, how, and when is this beneficial? I get really unhappy with this attitude. If the reading is done to find information the querent needs, then whatever the reader gets, the querent needs. I've heard a huge number of excuses for not passing on information, but none that satisfy me.

Umbrae	19 Jun 2003
Quote: I get really unhappy with this.. I've heard a huge number of excuses for not passing on information, but none that satisfy me. As I have said before, reading is an art and not a science. Every sitter is different. All situations are different. Read long enough and sooner you find will have ‘that reading’. Alarm bells will be going off inside your skull and you start looking at the cards and you look at the client, eye’s are puffy from crying and you know…you blow this one and she’s gonna go home a suck off a .38. Blood bone brain and bits of hair sprayed on the wall. It does help if you ask each and every client before the reading starts, “Do you want me to tell you only the good things, or do you want to tell you the truth…” But to sit there and look at little miss ‘I’m at the end of the rope and the spine’s about to snap – I’ve got the drugs in my purse – and hey I might just take the children with me’ and tell her, “He is having an affair, he’s leaving you, and he ain’t never coming back…” perhaps is a tad irresponsible. If anyone disagrees, you may need to read longer, or stop all together. There are ethics involved here. Failure to live up to the basic principals of ethics, regardless of intent is to break the covenant you share with your deities.

Alissa	19 Jun 2003
I did a reading last Fall for a woman who was in great distress. Her husband was cheating on her, they had already confronted the issue with each other. The marriage was continuing for the time being, but she needed insight. In that reading, in her near future position I saw the King of Cups and got a very strong impression that there would be a man coming into her life in the near future who would be much more of a love match. And, I told her so. I try to be a conduit, and not second guess or pre-judge what I get. I've since found out she's divorced her husband, got on the internet, met a man half her age in England and moved there, only to marry him 2 months later. GULP~! Did *I* put that suggestion in her head? Holy crap ... it's only a set of cards, right?? Right??? Reading is an art, and it means learning lessons along the way that are hard. Should I have withheld that I felt a man was coming into her future, even when I honestly felt that *was* the message I was getting? That answer changes each time you read. In the end, I still hold true to try to release as much information as I can when I read, instead of hold back. But, BUT ... I'm a Libra and pretty damn good at being diplomatic too. Compassion first. Diplomacy, and discretion ... of course.

mags@Treadwells	19 Jun 2003
If anyone disagrees, you may need to read longer, or stop all together. There are ethics involved here. Failure to live up to the basic principals of ethics, regardless of intent is to break the covenant you share with your deities. __________________ Yep, (also meant to quote here the one Umbrae himself used : "...if so, how, when & how do you know when to tell all to a client" etc) To that posting - it's so handy to listen to what ppl who have read for a long time (Like Umbrae)can offer. Things seem to find their own shape re: basic skillls (ie How, when, how much....do I tell). The weighing-up process/testing the waters with your current querent is more than half the job. Even if we fervently agree in theory with the KgSwd principle, the truth, nothing but, but the (sad?) fact is, over half those coming for readings are 'in a bit of a state' already - (why the heck are they at us, not their doctor/lawyer/ *best friend's?) But at the same time, granted, we are not wet-nurses. It's the balance. I found the panicky questions in the first few years were largely due to lack of experience and lack of confidence. As your skill develops, with time, so will yo ur judgement of situations. Well that's what I found, anyway. I hope this helps in some way.

LadyMedusa	19 Jun 2003
I have only read for 1 other person besides myself so far. A very good friend who has volunteered to be a guinea pig for a new reader. She is facing many changes and choices in her life paths, not really a rough time just confusing with all the changes going on. Several of these so far I picked up on before she had any indication they were going to happen. Two were employment related, one related to a friendship becoming more (or rather why it hasn't), and finding some roadblocks that she thought were impossible to overcome, dissappear suddenly. I don't know who is more amazed between us. I just hope as my skills improve I will be as accurate for others as I have been with her.

Astra	20 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Read long enough and sooner you find will have ‘that reading’. Alarm bells will be going off inside your skull and you start looking at the cards and you look at the client, eye’s are puffy from crying and you know…you blow this one and she’s gonna go home a suck off a .38. Blood bone brain and bits of hair sprayed on the wall. Except, Umbrae, that you've sort of proved my point. If in fact you were looking for information that would be useful to the querent, and not yourself, and this came directly from the cards, then I would expect it to be accompanied by something that would either have a chance at shifting the odds against suicide, or a direct "these are the lies you need to tell". Quote: If anyone disagrees, you may need to read longer, or stop all together. There are ethics involved here. Failure to live up to the basic principals of ethics, regardless of intent is to break the covenant you share with your deities. I'm going to try not to take that personally. I've been reading for around 30 years, and one of the things that I have learned is that if I second guess the information I'm getting from the cards, always assuming I've posed the questions I've asked properly, then I am more likely to do harm than if I give it straight.

MeeWah	21 Jun 2003
This regards the comments by Umbrae, Kyrsia322, Mags, Astra & Alissa--which I hope I am not taking out of context or misunderstanding & that what I seek to share is likewise understood appropriately. Despite the apparent "information" we as readers may be privy to, I see compassion is an integral part of the responsibility as a reader. I have experienced readings where I see the client is either unwilling or unable to see or to accept what may be happening in their lives. This is not unusual as oft many, including readers, can have difficulty in clarity of vision, understanding &/or awareness especially where the emotions are involved in aspects which impact the life. I tend to see the client in a wholistic view from the onset, based on what I see of their life path or potential & the general impressions of the person. Those are what direct me in the approach & "to customize" the reading to the client's sensabilities. In the interest of serving the client to the best of one's abilities, it behooves the client for the reader to consider & then to implement the best means of imparting information without being heavy-handed yet still adhere to the letter of the truth. Dispensing information with compassion, diplomacy & discretion keeps the communication smoother as well as encourages the client with self-empowerment. Ultimately, the last is the desired result.

MeeWah	21 Jun 2003
Niove: In your interesting commentary, I recognize factors ye refer to as pertinent to a wholistic understanding which employs psychic ability though ye may not see it as "psychic" at the time.. Whilst the card or cards which result may not be seem to be directly relevant to the inquiry, one can still be given *that which is needed or of a more immediate concern*--in your case, regarding your fish. That is, being caught by an image (fish) on a card (Death) followed by the passing on the date (Friday the 13th) are all part of the experience. The card & the image that struck ye along with the occurrence of the thought were prophetic. On another level, the card could also be significant to the actual inquiry though not necessarily. 'Tis in or of the card itself--its potential significance, its number(s), its image(s) & how it can relate to the current concerns of the life. When one is seeking (a message of any sort) "the clues" are provided & can address a singular aspect &/or different aspects of the life. Such experiences are what hone the ability to read.

Alex	21 Jun 2003
I don't know if there is any "information"; there are impressions, interepretations and possibilities. As far as communicating them, it makes sense only when that other person will give it meaning, understand it, process it. It is not my strongest point, to know what to say, and how to say something, in any area of my life. I have good experience with uselessness of passing on the right "information" the wrong way. Or even of passing it at all. I generally agree with Mee Wah and others who touched the same issue. You can be a terrific reader, yet useless and at most harmful to your clients. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Astra I get really unhappy with this attitude. If the reading is done to find information the querent needs, then whatever the reader gets, the querent needs. I've heard a huge number of excuses for not passing on information, but none that satisfy me.

HudsonGray	21 Jun 2003
"Human" and "balance" are both key in communicating during a reading. I think it's not so much what you have to convey as HOW it's done. Though I would have a good deal of trouble if it's something that could push a person over the edge really badly. Refocusing on the person in front of you to the degree that when you say THIS you see how they react enough to know if they hear THAT which is info you present for them to try to have a handle on how to best deal with it. It does no good to have someone close down to process something as you point out that there are ways of working around something. They'll miss that entirely & only come up for air when their mind is completely wrapped around the first thing you said. These are people's lives, and not everyone has a smooth running one. There are horrid abuse cases out there, and people on the edge with stress and illness and you'll probably get at least one of them at some point. The trick is how to present it in a way they hear and understand, and allow them to process something so they don't mentally lock up. I'm glad I haven't had anyone that bad ask me for one yet, so I'm not sure if I can do it properly--everything hinges on words.

mags@Treadwells	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah This regards the comments by Umbrae, Kyrsia322, Mags, Astra & Alissa--which I hope I am not taking out of context or misunderstanding & that what I seek to share is likewise understood appropriately. result. that's my take on it too, Mee Wah. ps - nice to meet you- at last! magsx

MeeWah	22 Jun 2003
Alex: Perhaps I need to clarify my use of the word "information". By information, I mean all that comes to the reader upon viewing the cards--the impressions; the thoughts (including word associations); the images or visuals that accompany the experience (which need not necessarily seem to relate to the images on the cards); what is "heard"; etc. Oft, what I "see" or "hear" is without the cards, as if there are images superimposed or outside the boundary of the cards. Thus what results may seem to have little or no direct relation to the card or cards themselves. To an extent, I agree that a reading or the passing of information has value when the other person is able to relate or to process same. I am not always sure that I know what to say or how to say it--therein is part of the risk I as a reader takes on. I do, however, know that a large part of my purpose is to share of my understanding. At times & despite the best efforts, what is perceived by the querent may appear to fall short. Whether there is a failure in communication on some level, each of us as reader or querent can only proceed from the individual understanding--no more, no less. Even if it appears that the full effect may be questionable due to the extent of the querent's perception (or the reader's), receiving some of the benefit of such information is better than none. In time, the rest may be assimilated--which in part is why I prefer readings via e-mail where the readings are transcribed. When the results are moreorless in print, a tangible form, the information is thus available for reference & for review.

MeeWah	22 Jun 2003
HudsonGray: I generally agree with your comments. Words have power. Words can heal or wound, enlighten or confuse. I have read for clients whom I saw as having been abused in their early life or in a relationship; ill or terminally ill; losing a partner or spouse to illness or some other separation; losing employment; heading into an accident; so on. Sometimes I am not certain that the information that comes through is related to the query (I oft do "cold" readings), but just the mere fact that the information results prompts consideration. Herein is where the phrasing of what is seen or a general reference has its merits--it can be applied according to the querent's understanding rather than imposed by the reader. For example, if a health matter arises, a suggestion can be made to consult with a physician or a counselor to eliminate a possible issue with same; or to examine the life-style or diet. This offers the querent an opportunity for empowerment; to make choices. In addition, a reader can learn as well by the experience of any reading. Learning is a constant process & all experiences contribute.

MeeWah	22 Jun 2003
Mags: A much-belated welcome is in order here--so: welcome to Aeclectic! 'Tis hoped ye enjoy your association with us. Being appropriately understood is of primary concern for me as this medium of communication does not always convey the tone or nuances. Hopefully, if there are questions they are asked.

Trogon	22 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Every sitter is different. All situations are different. I'll skip the gorier parts of this... ;) Okay... I'll agree that I undoubtedly need to learn more about Tarot. However (since Umbrae brought it up), after having worked in law enforcement for almost 20 years now (both as a police officer as well as a police dispatcher), I've dealt with a fair number of suicidal persons. And sometimes giving them very straight answers can help... sometimes being compasionate, but still giving straight answers helps... and sometimes sugar-coating the truth helps. But one thing that will always do harm when dealing with a suicidal person is to lie to them. It is almost a certainty that they will either know right away, or will figure it out during another part of your conversation. The reason that the lie is especially harmful in this sort of situation is because you have to build trust. If you want to help a person who has come to this point, they must trust you. Without that trust you will not be able to build a rappor with them, and you will accomplish nothing. Another thing... if I were to get the sense (either from the person themselves, or something in the cards) that a person was contemplating suicide... I would ask them "are you thinking about suicide?" If they are thinking about it, it is best to get it out in the open where it can be discussed honestly. Asking the question will not "plant the idea"... if they were thinking about it, obviously the idea was already there. If they were not considering suicide, mentioning it will only have them further reject it. If you get them talking about it, talking about their problems, then you can also get them talking about alternatives... get them thinking about reasons not to commit suicide. By the way... it doesn't hurt to be forarmed... get the phone numbers to your local suicide intervention centers or other such help agencies in your area... keep them with you for just such an event as this. When you get the person discussing other alternatives... give them the numbers... get them to promise to call and ask for further assistance. And no... in this sort of situation... telling a woman, who may be contemplating such an act, "oh... yes, your husband is cheating on you" probably would not be helpful. However asking "do you feel your husband might be cheating on you?" can, again, get the issue out in the open for discussion. If she's already "at the end of her rope"... she probably already suspects, or fully knows, what is going on and that is why she is so upset. Get her talking about it. One other thing... while I'm on the topic... sometimes you can not talk them out of it. I've been very lucky so far... all of my "negotiations" in these situations have been successful to one extent or another. I do, however, know 2 other dispatchers who have had suicidal callers kill themselves in spite of their best efforts.

MeeWah	22 Jun 2003
Trogon: As one who works in the types of situations as ye do, your thoughtfully expressed insights are very valuable; teach about the importance of appropriate communication. I especially agree with your approach & the points about honesty, building trust & getting the person to talk. Thanks very, very much for the wisdom of one who has been there (& who likely will again)!

Alex	23 Jun 2003
Mee Wah I had understood what you meant by "information" in first place. What I was trying to say wasn't actually very clear in my mind yet, when I wrote it. I was thinking about a distinction between one and another form of "knowledge", or means by which we obtain information- that between didactic and evocative knowledge. Didactic knowledge is imparted, while evocative knowledge is elicited or brought forth. In the traditional pictorial approach, the knowing subject is at one end of an investigative instrument - typically a telescope or microscope. What is essential about this way of representing the process of knowing is the spatial gap. The subject is at one end, while the object is at the other end, or 'out there'. The subject is the knower; the object is to be known. I look through the cards and I get to "know" the object, the answer to a question, or the heart of a situation. Didactic knowledge. We also get to know from the Other's response to what we convey. By evoking and provoking. Interacting. We learn by putting something out and finding out what comes back. Our relationship with the world is a phenomenological 'I-thou', not a scientistic 'I-it'. It is evocative knowledge. The knowledge obtained through reading cards can be "didactic" if we look at the cards (or whatever else) as an instrument to "unveil" or "reveal" something_ and things we unveil already "exist" in a way or another. But part of the information we "generate" is evocative in nature, even though we often do not have access to it, mostly when we read over the internet and never get to hear from the subject again. What results from the knowledge that has been imparted, what reactions it provokes, will change the very information we were trying to access in first place. When I "know" something and make this information known, I impart knowledge, but upon doing it, I evoke a response, an outcome. What I "knew" to begin with has been already began to change when I am half way trough communicating it. The response, the processing of what we communicate, is what the "information" consists of. I can't deny you information when I read "your" cards, because information is still taking form. I don't think we manipulate, deny or trade information. I think to some extent we create realities over what we choose, and how we choose, to communicate. Worries me that some people may get readings from irresponsible, ill-intentioned or openly unsympathetic readers, because the reality thus created may turn out to be worse than the reality that was accessed in first place. "There is a tumor". Is there a tumor? Is it to be messed up with? How many people have doctors killed faster, in more pain, because they messed up with a tumor that was not to be messed up with. "Saying" something is a means to take the responsibility out of our shoulders, sometimes. As operating a cancerous tumor is a way the doctor has to take that responsibility out of his shoulders. I guess these are some of the things I was trying to say. The subject is way too complex. Alex.

Umbrae	24 Jun 2003
Brilliant post Trogon…I stand up and cheer! Somewhere a while back I did a thread on ethics… I have watched readers, old and new, amateur and professional, sit down with clients and tell. Tell tell tell…perhaps they want to show how good they are, but they tell tell tell. I have always believed that what we do, is have a consultative conversation. Perhaps it all goes back to those two questions I always ask: Why do they come to us; and Why do you read? When it comes to folks in trouble, no you don’t lie – no you don’t dance around the truth – but you’d better have a conversation…which implies bilateral communicative actions…it means that as a reader, we have to listen – and in many cases provide guidance and referrals as opposed to telling. Now I have personally had folks come to me and sit with their arms crossed…all tight…poker faced with no feedback of any kind – difficult to read for…but not impossible. Please don’t fall into the trap of “Telling."

Trogon	25 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I have watched readers, old and new, amateur and professional, sit down with clients and tell. Tell tell tell…perhaps they want to show how good they are, but they tell tell tell. I have always believed that what we do, is have a consultative conversation. Perhaps it all goes back to those two questions I always ask: Why do they come to us; and Why do you read? When it comes to folks in trouble, no you don’t lie – no you don’t dance around the truth – but you’d better have a conversation…which implies bilateral communicative actions…it means that as a reader, we have to listen – and in many cases provide guidance and referrals as opposed to telling. (Notice that, out of sheer modesty, I snipped out the comments which prove what a wonderful person I am. ;) Thanks Umbrae! :D ) Well... as I've said before, I believe in being honest with a person for whom I'm doing a reading. But being "honest" is not an excuse for being mean or even brutal with the truth. A few weeks ago I recall someone posting about a reader they went to (or a friend went to?) who spewed the reading at them in a downright mean, even cruel way. The person came away feeling quite badly if I remember correctly. To me this is not doing a Tarot reading, this is just bullying someone... being mean for the sake of being mean. There are ways to be truthful without being cruel. This is what I try to do. I think that a lot of people who come to me need a little directness... but that can still be achieved without cruelty. But usually, if there is any doubt in my mind, I'll approach things as gently as possible. On the other hand... I can see a need, occasionally, for a firmer approach. For example, a person who has come to me several times and just isn't seeing their wake-up call. They might need a few stronger words. But again... I would hope that I could do it without coming across as simply beating them up emotionally. I hope I'm making sense here... it is getting rather late for me (I work the night shift and it's almost 7:00 am here). Oh well...

mags@Treadwells	25 Jun 2003
Wow - well said, Trog(ps hi - nice to meet you). This is such a fascinating thread I've been following. I hear a reply - reac to it, wonder how on earth I can put it in to words succinctly..and hey presto, someone always does it for me/ us (?) Keep it going, ppl. xmags 2 good ones today - nice!

baba-prague	25 Jun 2003
I've been thinking about this today as someone came over to ask me for a reading and said she had been told by someone else that I was a very good reader. Now this surprised me, because the person who did the recommendation is someone with whom I did do quite a blunt reading a while back - and I thought they had been frightened off by it. It was a bit like Trogon is describing - the third of a series of readings where the cards were coming up loud and clear and the person just wasn't hearing it. In the end I said, Look, act on some of this or there is no point in carrying on with these readings. That was the last I heard from them - and then this very strong recommendation. So maybe it was the right thing to say and it in fact did help? Interesting. I totally agree that it's unforgiveable to bully someone (or embarrass or distress them) - but sometimes being honest, and even, kindly, a bit blunt, IS what's needed. After all, it's what people expect if they seriously ask for a reading (and personally I don't do "entertainment" type readings - I'd rather only do it for someone who is reasonably serious about it). Okay - that's my bit thrown in. It makes me WISH again that we could have a Reader's Studio (New York style) somewhere accessible in Europe. It would be so good to talk about these things in that kind of setting. Ah well, dream on...

mags@Treadwells	25 Jun 2003
Ahh, b ut we DO, my darling. It's called "Treadwell's", and it's located at: 34 Tavistock Street Covent garden LONDON WC2E 7PB 020 7240 8906 Ask for Maggie/ We'll probably get together as and when the need arises. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxooh, Baba, you are naughty....but I like you

baba-prague	26 Jun 2003
Yes, it's a wonderful shop (for everyone listening IT's A WONDERFUL SHOP - really is and if you are within reach of London you should go or you'll be missing out on a great experience.) but could you organise a Reader's Studio? (as in a couple of days of workshops/talks etc for experienced readers to get together and learn from one another)? Please, please? It would be just great. I know tabi organise good events, but (for those wondering what I'm on about) the Reader's Studio that was recently tried out in NY (Rachel Pollack et al) just sounded like what we need. It's always so interesting when you get a chance to talk over reading issues, reading styles, ethics etc with other more experienced readers - just think how great it would be to have a couple of days to do that, WITH talks, and samples of decks and new ideas to try out and, and, and... PLEASE could you consider doing this at Treadwell's? Pretty please Maggie? ps - edited to add this link: http://www.tarotpassages.com/nyreadersstudio-dl.htm

mags@Treadwells	26 Jun 2003
...maaate... I want nothing more than this. But Chris is boss, so I'll SLOWLY suggest and pass all your comments on to her. Maybe even while Umbrae's here.....summer 2004 later

The To amateurs and Pros thread was originally posted on 28 May 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.