A Series of Connected Thoughts

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Major Tom	10 Jun 2003
Or a journey through the major arcana of the tarot. I stumbled on the following written by MacGregor Mathers. It can also be found in The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Vol. I: "The human will (I - The Magician), enlightened by science (II The High Priestess) and manifested by action (III The Empress), should find it's realization (IIII The Emperor) in deeds of mercy and beneficence (V The Hierophant). Wise disposition (VI The Lovers) will bring victory (VII The Chariot) through equilibrium (VIII Justice) and prudence (VIIII The Hermit) over the fluctuations of fortune (X The Wheel of Fortune). Fortitude (XI Strength), sanctified by sacrifice of one's self (XII The Hanged Man), will triumph over disaster (XIII Death), and thus a wise combination (XIIII Temperance), enables one to defy fate (XV The Devil). In each misfortune (XVI The Tower) there is always the star of hope (XVII The Star) shining through the twilight of deception (XVIII The Moon) to ultimate happiness (XVIIII The Sun) in the final result (XX Judgement). On the other hand, folly (The Fool) will bring about an evil reward (XXI The World)." It's the first time I've seen any explaination for placing the Fool between Judgement and the World. Works for me. :laugh: Any thoughts? The more I learn the more I think Justice should be 8. })

Kiama	10 Jun 2003
I like what Mathers is saying there... His philosophy of life and fate seems to be pretty much the same as mine. I have heard of the Fool being placed in between Judgement and the World before, but these days it is hardly done because most people follow the whole 'Fools Journey' thing, and the Fool's meaning has changed so much over the years... When Mathers was writing, it did indeed mean folly, but now for many is is innocence and purity. (And still for others it is a mixture!) Thanks for this, Tom! Just a question: Was the passage actually written with teh card references in it like that, or were they left out so that a clever reader could come along and work it out? Kiama

cjtarot	10 Jun 2003
Major Tom, Thank you for sharing..I really like that.. Cj

Major Tom	10 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I like what Mathers is saying there... His philosophy of life and fate seems to be pretty much the same as mine. When Mathers was writing, it did indeed mean folly, but now for many is is innocence and purity. (And still for others it is a mixture!) Was the passage actually written with teh card references in it like that, or were they left out so that a clever reader could come along and work it out? To answer in reverse order: ;) I've quoted the way I found with the cards in brackets. I'd love to see it illustrated. I personally don't see any conflict with modern meanings and folly. And yes, this is what effected me most. Mather's philosophy of life and fate seems right some how. :laugh: Is the major arcana of the tarot a synthesis of all knowledge and a description of all the events in an individual life span? :eek: Is this why Paul Foster Case and BOTA consider the minors and divination "frivolous"? :laugh: They have their own Pattern on the Trestleboard or This is truth about the Self: which corresponds to the 10 sephera (sp?) on the Tree of Life which might better be discussed on the qabbala board... Did Crowley or any other writers have anything similar?

dadsnook2000	10 Jun 2003
Major Tom. First of all, thanks for bringing this topic up. I am not a tarot expert, just a long-time beginner. It seems to me that the Fool and the World may be two sides of the same coin -- both close to the eternal being. However, I'm stuck with the concept of the Fool being a new incarnation that has yet to pick up both experiences and learning while the World symbolizes a completeness of some sort. The World may represent for me a point of achievement and development, and possibly, an approaching time to move back to the source (and later to take on a new incarnation). In that sense the World and the Fool are somewhat "sequential." But I can't feel comfortable with the two being next to each other as in "Judgement-Fool-World. Perhaps you or others can expand on that a bit. Thanks. Dave.

Major Tom	11 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by dadsnook2000 But I can't feel comfortable with the two being next to each other as in "Judgement-Fool-World. Perhaps you or others can expand on that a bit. Thanks. Dave. Until I read this by Mathers, I've felt precisely the same. :) Here's my take on it or how I've made sense of it: you are welcome to call it nonsense. :laugh: Imagine the Fool represents the soul - that part of us that is god. The Fool can go anywhere in the deck. If, for example, you place him between Judgement and the World, it becomes particularly enlightening. That is the point the soul can leave the cycle and stop reincarnating. A soul that no longer must reincarnate could be called an ascended master. The goal of evolution is for the whole World to reach that point. I just found the whole thing rather enlightening and wanted to share. :)

dadsnook2000	11 Jun 2003
Did Mathers or his contemporaries create another, additional card for the "Master" -- or does that get seen as a culmination or combination of the reading being given. I know that some decks do have one or more special cards that can be included. Dave.

Major Tom	11 Jun 2003
Yes, I know of a couple of decks with master cards too. :) I think Mathers (or at least me) would say it's the culmination of the reading. :laugh:

anjocoxo	11 Jun 2003
I really liked Mather's logic, at least it helped me to organize all the cards in my head... thanks major tom Anjo

Major Tom	19 Jun 2003
I'd like to refer to this thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13273&highlight=25+words And issue a challenge. Let's assume we've accepted that "the tarot is a book with 78 interchangeable pages which may be read in any order desired, for whatever purpose." :laugh: I'll further submit that the 22 majors tell the core of the story. }) Would anyone else like to take a shot at telling that story succinctly?

dadsnook2000	30 Jun 2003
Major Tom. As noted previously, I've been pursuing parts of this issue. Just recently I've acquired an interesting book, "Tarot and Psychology" by Arthur Rosengarten, Ph.D., published by Paragon House, Minnesota, USA. This is a marvelous work and introduces "twoness" and "inter-being" among other topics. After reading his thoughts on inter-being and how anything implies the presence (in one way or another) of everything else, I can easily grasp what you were presenting relative to placing the Fool within the sequential order of the deck. In fact, the author also deals with sequential time and Time (as a non-linear construct). I have to finish this book and then go through it a few more times, but it definitly is an eye-opener for me. Dave.

Major Tom	01 Jul 2003
Thanks for this Dave. :) Quote: Originally posted by dadsnook2000 After reading his thoughts on inter-being and how anything implies the presence (in one way or another) of everything else, I can easily grasp what you were presenting relative to placing the Fool within the sequential order of the deck. I've developed the belief that God is Everything. These thoughts seem to confirm it. })

Minos	03 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom It's the first time I've seen any explaination for placing the Fool between Judgement and the World. Works for me. :laugh: Any thoughts? The more I learn the more I think Justice should be 8. }) Mathers probably meant it as a blind for the uninitiated, or at least true in an exoteric sense only. Placing the Fool first was a *super-dooper order secret*.

Shatril	26 Jul 2004
Major Tom said in one of the replies to this thread that he thinks God is everything, and I'm inclined to agree with this. When I started studying the Kabblah as a result of the association with the tarot I read something that just didn't ring true, imagine the striking of a broken bell here. The gist is: :"If God is omniscient and omnipotent, ther is "no/where" for him to creat anything that is not him. " I'm cheering right on that is it. Then the went on, "So before creation starts, God has to limit himself: to withdraw from a "where" so that creation can occur." I was flabbergast, that has such a sour note that I put the book down. If this is what Kabbalah is about they missed the boat. Shatril

firemaiden	26 Jul 2004
hmmmm, the world is an "evil reward" ??? what does that mean?

Eco74	26 Jul 2004
Say, Shatril, does that mean God is Not omniscient and omnipotent or that he is, but just not where we are since he removed himself from the space used for the creation? An interesting thought I think. A little like Deism actually, which basically stated that God created the earth with all it's natural laws and then left it to take care of itself, with the help of the natural laws instated by him.

jmd	27 Jul 2004
Mathers and Wescott disagreed on a number of aspects with regards to the development of the Golden Dawn. What Mathers wrote here and elsewhere was not for the un-initiated or cowan, but rather his view which arose out of considerations taken from Eliphas Levi. As I have also mentioned before, Mathers tended to at times definitely take the Marseille sequence, with the positioning of the Fool between XX & XXI (as also did Waite in his own book, by the way) as significant. Placing the Fool there was considered by some to in fact be part of the 'secret' sequence, and allocated the Hebrew letter Shin.

kwaw	27 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom On the other hand, folly (The Fool) will bring about an evil reward (XXI The World)." It's the first time I've seen any explaination for placing the Fool between Judgement and the World. Works for me. :laugh: Works for me until it gets to folly and the world. I just don't see Atu XXI representing 'an evil reward'. These two end cards seem to interupt the flow of the rest and has the feel of a 'forced fit'. Kwaw

kwaw	27 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd As I have also mentioned before, Mathers tended to at times definitely take the Marseille sequence, with the positioning of the Fool between XX & XXI (as also did Waite in his own book, by the way) as significant. It is from a book by Mathers which, like Waites, was intended for the popular market and not therefore 'esoteric'. The quote given is from the chapter on 'Symbolism of Each of the Keys' in a small booklet by Mathers called: The Tarot: Its occult signification, Use in Fortune Telling and Method of Play , 1888, which has been republished on many occasions. The full text can be found online here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/mathers/index.htm Kwaw

roppo	27 Jul 2004
er... at the risk of offending many, I would like to point out that the Mathers' words in question are simply the borrowing from Paul Christian's "L'Histoire de la Magie". You can find them in the p.111, vol.I of the English translation "History and Practice of Magic"... sorry for being wet blanket!

Alta	27 Jul 2004
roppo, It is always good to know the true source of things.

kwaw	27 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by roppo er... at the risk of offending many, I would like to point out that the Mathers' words in question are simply the borrowing from Paul Christian's "L'Histoire de la Magie". You can find them in the p.111, vol.I of the English translation "History and Practice of Magic"... sorry for being wet blanket! Mathers certainly does seem to have 'borrowed' heavily from Paul Christian. The link to Mathers I have given in above post, the particular chapter is at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/mathers/mtar02.htm Don't know about vol. 1 of Christian's work but an English translation of The Mystery of the Pyramids from Vol.2, with which anyone interested might wish to compare with Mathers text above, can be found here: http://ln.com.ua/~kostenko/pctarot.html Mathers does reference Christian as a source for some of the material in the book; from the introduction he says: "This idea is further dilated upon by P. Christian (the disciple of Eliphas Levi), in his "Histoire de la Magie," to which I shall have occasion to refer later." And in the final chapter: "Christian, the disciple of Lèvi, in his recent work on Magic, has made the explanation of the twenty-two hieroglyphics of the Tarot form part of the initiatory ceremonies of the Egyptian mysteries of Crata Repoa." Kwaw

Satori	29 Jul 2004
I wonder what would happen if you worked the order in which the Fool meets the archetypes from a different direction. Perhaps an interesting exercise would be to let the Fool wander and put archetypes in his path that are completely out of order just to see what happens, almost for the fun of it? Perhaps Major Tom if you were to travel from the ridiculous back to the historical some small bit of light might be shed someplace one would least expect it?

Aun	30 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom The Fool can go anywhere in the deck. If, for example, you place him between Judgement and the World, it becomes particularly enlightening. I totally agree with that. The Fool leaps from trump to trump, not necessarily in their sequencial order, but according to everyone's singular experiences. I don't think its correct though to place the Fool as 'fixed' between trumps XX and XXI - he could be there yes, but only temporarily.

The A Series of Connected Thoughts thread was originally posted on 10 Jun 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.