Crowley/ I'm trying to make up my mind

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

SingingTarot	04 Jun 2003
I own the Thoth deck. I was reading some posts here, talking about the bad reputation of Mister Crowley, since I really had no clues about this, I decided to go dig up a little bit of information about the gentleman. Boy, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I am a little disturbed by what I read, okay I am totally disturbed. Obviously, the guy had major major issues. I am wondering what many of you think about him, I have read a lot of very positive feeback about his tarot deck, I am just wondering how I can separate the man from his works. Is his whole reputation made up? It would be so nice to have some of your experts' opinions on this. Thank y'all for being so knowledgeable and willing to share it :D Alice

SingingTarot	04 Jun 2003
Was that a no-no question? Alice

firemaiden	04 Jun 2003
Hi Singing Tarot, not a no-no question, but we have had many threads on this of late :) There are quite a few Thoth enthusiasts on this board. I really love the Thoth Deck, and adore reading the Book of Thoth, finding Crowley to be a tremendous wit. What he does for the English language reminds me of what Lautréamont did for the French, following in th legacy of Baudelaire. As French is freed from the constraints of virtue between Fleurs du Mal and Maldoror, Crowley gives the english language a punch, no -- an explosion of colour... forgive me, I am just beginning to put this into words. Here is one recent and rather long thread: Crowley Thoth: opinions sought that became very interesting. :)

Blue Override	05 Jun 2003
Half of what one reads about Uncle Al is fabrication. About a quarter is based in truth, but "sexed up" for scandal.

Kiama	05 Jun 2003
Please don't seperate Crowley from his works: In order to truly understand the Thoth Tarot, one really needs to understand Crowley's views on life, the Tarot, and everything! ;) The deck is created from Crowley's perspective: A Thelemic one. By seperating the man from his work, you run th erisk of losing some very vaulable and rewarding things. Crowley has got a terrible reputation, lots of it is fabricated, but alot of it is true. Yes, he was a drug addict. Yes, his views on sex were... In my opinion, unwholesom. Yes, he did do that climbing expedition where everyone but him died... But look at what the man has done for the occult and Tarot world. I think that if it wasn't for Crowley, we wouldn't have half of the knowledge we currently have about the Tarot. If it wasn't for Crowley, we wouldn't have half the knowledge we have about the occult, different forms of it, Hemetic magic, etc. This guy was a trailblazer. He did things nobody had done before in the occult world. And what's more, he wrote it all down for us. His writing itself is... cryptic to say the least, but this advantage of yielding up new insights every time one reads it! :D The deck is a perfect example of this: The more we look at the deck, the more info we get from it, but we always see something new in it each time! Sadly, if one is to fully understand the deck, one needs to understand the viewpoint from which is created. Otherwise, it's like trying to use the Kalevala Tarot without any prior knowledge of the Kalevala, or trying to understand the Osho Zen Tarot without having a clue about Buddhism. Many of the world's great trailblazers had less than wholesome reputations: Many of the people who began new movements/schools of thought were very Magician-like: Showmen, out to shock... But they did what they wanted to do. Crowley succeeded in telling the world about Thelema and Tarot. Personally, I think he was a great guy. I don't necessarily agree with his views on some things (Like drugs or sex with animals) but what he did for the world of Tarot I feel discounts his more unwholesome actions. This is just my view of course, and I know there are people who see things differently. I look forward to reading more replies! Kiama

Sobeknofret	05 Jun 2003
If it really bothers you about Crowley, do keep in mind that the Thoth deck is as much a love child of Lady Frieda Harris as it is of Crowley. Crowley apparently in large part left the art design up to her with some minimal input, and it was her artistic vision that gave the deck the shape it has now. Personally, I think Crowley was a class A sociopath, but there's no denying that he was a brilliant magician and scholar. The deck is worth all the Crowley hype. Just my few cents worth. This is a pretty passionate topic for a lot of people, so I anticipate some good discussion. Good luck! --Sobe

Emily	05 Jun 2003
If you like your Thoth deck and it reads well, then that is all that matters - I knew of Aleister Crowley and his reputation, he was a very intelligent man, I've tried to read his works but they are hard going. I like his and Lady Frieda's deck - to me thats all what matters.

Khatruman	05 Jun 2003
I just got the Thoth deck in the smaller version (kudos to Emily and Crystalmynx for helping me track it down), and have had the large deck for quite some time. I was delighted to find that the LWB in the small deck contained a whole section on tarot and interpretations of the cards from Lady Frieda Harris herself!!! It is a deck worth using, in that it not only is one of the standards of tarot, but that there are other decks which can be enlightened by your knowledge of this one (i.e. Cosmic Tribe, Rohrig, Portal, etc.) One must be willing to do a little separation between the artist and art in any study of an art. As a writer, I cringe when someone feels that a character's opinion or world view in one of my works represents how I feel. And whenever someone quotes a Shakespeare line and states, "Shakespeare said..." Well, no, Shakespeare didn't say that; he created a character who said that. Anyway, please be able to enjoy the profound insights of this deck without being tainted by scandal..*s*

isthmus nekoi	05 Jun 2003
Well, the reviews up at Aeclectic regarding Thoth give examples of ppl who read well w/the deck and enjoy it w/o any in depth study of Crowley's intentions. However, I've found reading the Book of Thoth to be very helpful to me. I also have a different attitude when I use Thoth. I can be much more.... vulgar... lol p.s. Firemaiden... sorry to get slightly off topic but... do you like Les Chants de Maldoror? I just love picking up the book, opening it to a random page and reading to see where the Compte will take me!! (Unfortunatly, I don't know enough French so I have to read the translation T_T zut alors!) It's too bad the Surrealists never picked up on Crowley. Then we'd all write off his eccentricities as 'artistic' and generally let him get off the hook along w/Picasso or Polanski etc etc.

firemaiden	05 Jun 2003
Les Chants de Maldoror, Isthmus Nekoi, is one of the Seven Wonders of the World!!! And I think the time has come for someone like me to do a study of Crowley as surrealist poet. :)

callahwj	06 Jun 2003
If you like the deck but wish to focus on Harris' contributions rather than crowleys, check out "The Tarot Handbook," by Angles Arrien. It's written from a "cross-cultural" perspective and focuses on the visuals, not Crowley's information. Personaly, I would recomend giving crowley a chance. A lot has been said for and against the man, people don't know what to believe about him so most just shy away. I think he wanted it that way. I'm only starting to read his work, and I'm impressed with the depth of his knowledge and his sense of humor. I'm glad I didn't just shy away. Just my 2 cents, -Bill

isthmus nekoi	06 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Les Chants de Maldoror, Isthmus Nekoi, is one of the Seven Wonders of the World!!! And I think the time has come for someone like me to do a study of Crowley as surrealist poet. :) Please do! Crowley needs some help in the cred department.

SingingTarot	06 Jun 2003
Thank you for all of your comments and thoughts on the topic. I personally have no problem with the man being a womanizer, or a compelte egocentric. People's sex life is their own business and by no means interfere with what they have to offer. As far as his having a nasty temper, who can really say they are such giving and perfect peopel, I can't. I guess what really makes me sick in my stomach is when I hear things like "torturing cats" or the fact that his 2 daughters died, all these things that seem to refer to a mentally ill person taking pleasure in the pain of others. I am very unconfortable and very much against any practice that include torturing anything. I have a hard time getting over this, my thought process going something like " nothing good can come out of someone who takes pleasure in torturing others, I wish to stay away from this" Yet, I have heard so much good about this deck, it has been sitting in its little wooden box ever since I read these things, and do not dare to use and somehow, support and be part of something that really makes me sick. I want to learn everything I can about Tarot, and the Thoth deck is a must to work with. As y'all can see I am still stuggling with this dilemna. Is there a biography out there that speaks truthfully of Crowley? Alice

Blue Override	06 Jun 2003
Quote: I guess what really makes me sick in my stomach is when I hear things like "torturing cats" or the fact that his 2 daughters died, all these things that seem to refer to a mentally ill person taking pleasure in the pain of others. I'll hold back on the topic of torturing cats, as no one really knows if that anecdote is true or false. Like I said, lots of things have been fabricated and exaggerated. On the note of the death of his children, if you read any of his personal writings - letters, journals - you'll see that it was a source of much pain for him. He had nothing to do with those deaths, it was just harder to be a child in those days. One of my grandmother's siblings died, and that was just because children died. Medical care wasn't as advanced. And moreso when your family was living in a place like the Abbey in Italy, where there was no plumbing and all sorts of people coming in and out. Maybe it wasn't the most suitable place for a child, but there's no doubt that Crowley loved his children. If you want to read Aleister Crowley, and know him, start by reading his diaries. He's very frank about all his habits - drugs, sex, interpersonal politics between he and others. His Tunisia diaries have a detailed account of his attempt to kick Heroin. How many people on smack have the presence of mind to detail all that suffering? Not very many. Then read his "Confessions: an Autobiography." After you've read his side of the story - which it sounds like you should - move on to the published biographies, and take seriously only about half of what you read in each of them. IF THAT! And just remember. . .Crowley. He was just this guy. Not a saint, not a demon, just this guy with some really interesting ideas and a mad, incredible talent for selling them.

Blue Override	06 Jun 2003
A post so nice, I had to make it twice. . .

SingingTarot	06 Jun 2003
Thank you Blue Override, that is a great idea. I will read what you advised because it really sounds like the best thing to do. This was so helpful to read your post, thanks! Alice

Blue Override	06 Jun 2003
Anytime I can be of help, poke me. Uh. Just don't ask me to actually -explain- what Al's going on about. That's a pretty subjective thing - everybody thinks something different! And I think that says more about the nature of Thelemites than it does about our founder, actually. ;)

Blue Override	06 Jun 2003
Oh, and as a side note about the deck itself - I bust it out a parties, bars, and people buy me drinks in exchange for reads. Some other people's decks might take offense to this, but mine? No difference. In fact, I think we read better (the deck and I) when I am tipsy. :)

Sobeknofret	07 Jun 2003
If you want a good bio of Crowley, try "Do What Thou Wilt: A Life of Aleister Crowley," by Lawrence Sutin. The author tries pretty hard to give an open and fair treatment of Crowley, although there are places where I think he slips up. Overall though a really good and interesting book. --Sobe

Dajax	24 Jul 2003
As some of you may know, I am 'mentally ill'. When I first made the acquaintence of the Thoth deck, I had just been diagnosed with bipolar. Before that diagnosis, I had suffered pain, loss, and agony beyond most people's comprehension. I did not torture anyone...I simply possessed a brain bent on torturing myself. Recently at another group I participate on, there was a discussion revolving around whom is the greater teacher: pain or joy. I imagine it depends. For me? Pain has been more than a teacher...it has been my mentor. Because of it, when that fleeting moment of joy (not mania, but joy) touches me...it almost burns because I recognize it so intensly. I believe that Crowley made his identity out of pain. I don't believe that was who he was - I think the rage of his childhood left him no other example. Sometimes, when I handle or think of the Thoth...I catch a whisp of joy...tinged with sorrow. He impacted the World with his vision...even though he lived a life so narrowly defined. But if he hadn't lived the life he did...we wouldn't have the Thoth. If the Thoth had not been born...whose to say that my life would have finally found the meaning that it has? His soul paid a heavy price to impact just even one person, me, so positively. I am lucky. I'm 37 now and a name was given to my 'madness' before it ran completely rampant and totally destroyed my life. I am also lucky, in that my brain responds to medication. Unlike Crowley, I did not choose to make my 'madness' into something with it's own identity. But then, he didn't have the choices available to him that I did and do. I chose to live without mania...without those wild trips that some self-induce with LSD, cocaine, etc, ...without that out of mind experience that took me to the 'insane' plane that is so reminiscent of what I see mirrored in what's been written about him. Instead, I have chosen to live as 'sane' as possible. I choose to collaborate with a fellow artist and make beauty out of where not only I had come from...but where he came from...inspired by what I saw in both the Thoth and my friend's art. Whatever you think of Crowley and his 'madness'...look deeper into his vision. He suffered greatly. I didn't and don't need to study his writings, to see how he searched to give voice to where his brain took him. Harris's intuition understood his own, even when he didn't!...and saw deeper than the exterior. The deck reflects deeper than the surface of a 'scared little boy' hiding behind a damaged man's ego expressed as somehow being 'evil' or leacherous. The deck reflects the depth of his pain and the lessons it teaches us all. Pain is simply the flip side of joy, in my experience. Crowley intellectualized his journey with pain and with 'madness' via Tarot. Harris gave it 'voice'. It's a brilliant collaboration that expresses true empathy, compassion...and belief of one man's hidden soul-truth. I love the Thoth deck. I did the minute I saw it. I felt a truth to it that cut through all of my deception: that of a genetically alterered brain and my own denial of what that meant. We create sometimes without hearing our own voice. When I look at the Thoth deck, I see Harris's intuition singing out Crowley's wounded soul. Her intuition felt his beauty, forgave him his cruelty, expressed empathy and the deepest of understanding. It's a work of spirit...not of despair or evilness. There is pain each and every day. The Thoth deck shows what beauty can be born from that. And as so many other decks exemplify {including my own}, the Thoth shows what can be inspired from the experience of both it's creators. My advice is to be open to it - for it will always and without fail, tell you the truth. At least it always has, for me.

The Crowley/ I'm trying to make up my mind thread was originally posted on 04 Jun 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.