Tarot Frustrations : Crisis of Faith

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	20 Jun 2003
Confessions of Frustration from the Great Firemaiden. I guess it comes in waves. On again, off again. Sometimes Tarot is the most amazing thing since sliced bread, sometimes it is like -- what am I doing with this cardboard, asking it questions I should be asking myself? The new frustration settles in now that I have (nearly) finished my compendium, and read so many threads on all the meanings of the cards.... How can you possibly read, if any card can mean anything at all?? If you are a great seer, do you even need the cards to read? Otherwise, being just an ordinary citizen, if the cards can mean so many different things each, and also so many cards mean the same or similar things one to the other... how can you read???

HudsonGray	20 Jun 2003
There's always going to be one thing about the card that jumps out at you, which is the 'meaning' for that particular reading. Even though there's so much about each card that applies....not all of it does when you actually lay them out. Don't stress it! Each card IS still different from the others. Just let your own mind take up the task & you'll get what applies.

Baby Owl	20 Jun 2003
firemaiden, I agree with Hudson. Also, to me the main purpose of the cards is to help me (or a querent) find answers that are already within me (or her or him). The tarot takes me on a thought-journey in, around, and through an issue. That said, I also get frustrated by the many interpretations and meanings assigned to the cards. I try to remind myself that the process (journey) is at least as important as the answer (destination). So far I'm okay with that! (I think you may have been at this longer than I...) Baby Owl

sagitarian	20 Jun 2003
nope, you don't need cards to read. Reading tarot cards I believe helps you develope your empathic skills, but they are only a tool for learning. Once you learn how to read a person, they should be able to tell you, I'd like to know about my boyfriend, and you could tell them what you feel without the cards. This is something that I'm currently trying to tune with myself. So far, I still need the cards very much so, but it's a work in project. My husband on the otherhand, doesn't use anything to read people, and can tell you exactly what's going on in your life, most of the time, he can tell you the names too, and tell you which direction you should go. Does he do this often? No, b/c he doesn't see a point in it, unless it's something like a friend asking him advice. This way it's not "threatening" to the "querent" and he can tell them what advice he "sees" as being best. He's (so far) always been right. However, he can't read himself. Go figure! :)

Khatruman	20 Jun 2003
I look at tarot as any other tool.... Yeah, I am sure I could tighten that nut with my hands, but a good wrench is going to help me do a better job. What I find fascinating is that the mind/hand connection is so THERE with tarot. It still fascinates me that it works so wonderfully, as long as I believe it will. I can't totally explain how, and quite frankly I don't want it scientifically pinned down, and nailing down specific card meanings is a scientific approach. The FIRST world has become too left-brained, scientific, material and has lost the balance with what the THIRD world still, for the most part, realizes, in the connection with the spirit. I look at even Oriental animation and movies and see there is still an underlying belief in the unprovable magic in the world. Magical realism as a literary genre... notice how very little of it comes from the United States or European countries? It mainly comes from Central and South America, the Mediterranean, etc. There is as much magic in the world as science.

WolfSpirit	20 Jun 2003
Firemaiden, I understand your frustration so well. I can often figure out what a card means in a certain context - in connection with other cards - but I often cannot translate it to my life, finding what I should really do with this outcome. I sometimes just can't get any precise answers, just very general things that I don't really need a tarot deck for. And then sometimes...it just clicks and I see straight away what is in the cards.

Diana	20 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Sometimes Tarot is the most amazing thing since sliced bread, sometimes it is like -- what am I doing with this cardboard, asking it questions I should be asking myself? Sliced bread is a terrible invention. There is nothing more enjoyable than cutting a loaf of fresh whole-wheat bread for one's breakfast while the coffee is brewing. Fixed meanings are the same. What do you mean "asking questions I should be asking myself"? That is exactly what you are doing when you are reading Tarot. You are asking questions of yourself. What is above is as below. All the answers are written in the "stars". The stars are above. You are below. (Or vice-versa.) Tarot helps you communicate with yourself. Or with the stars. Take your pick - both work in the same way. A card doesn't mean "anything". It means precisely what it is supposed to mean in a given position in a given thread at a given time. Today I had strawberries for supper. Sometimes when I am preparing them, I notice more their shape. Sometimes I notice more their colour. Sometimes I notice more their fragrance. But they are always strawberries.

Umbrae	20 Jun 2003
Laurel once said something like, “Tarot is like divination with training wheels; a Waite Coleman Smith deck adds the helmet and body protection.” Sometimes we get busy…we begin to think too much, focus inward too much. Meanwhile, the universe, filled with it is with magic, is waiting for us to become aware. We confuse knowledge with caring and feeling. You have been sold a barrel a facts, and yet the barrel is empty. We have an apple in our hand, and are sold the virtues of the apple in the tree…we forget. Tarot helps us touch the spirit again – it helps us remember…it is only cardboard and ink…but when you ask of yourself – which do you hear? The one who bought the barrel and wants to buy the apple? Some things cannot be explained. Some things should not be explained. Some things lose their meaning when they are. When you box and compartmentalize, you lose the magic. Our day-to-day practical world is so full, and so distracting, that we do not forget magic once we touch it; we lose interest. It is still there, just not for us. Unless we focus and immerse ourselves into the mystery. Look around you…all you see - is illusion. When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries of life disappear and life stands explained. Six Candles…

Cerulean	20 Jun 2003
at the moment. Put the decks away and take a morning tour of your town with a camera...or grab local postcards...gather scenes or clippings from brochures or free handouts or newspapers that seem appealing to you today. Take a walk with an idea of gathering in your mind...you might come back with leaves or just nothing special, but observations for your journal or ideas for something to draw or write about...if that appeals to you. This doesn't always work, but engaging in an art tourist mode can also help. I actually have a guidebook that asks questions about finding art styles that appeals to the senses. For vision to fingers, mine is color and texture. I can schedule time to go to a museum or garden or park or library within a week or two if I feel stale. Once in awhile, I use unlaminated (Neoclassico from Solleone) or rather old style cards (Minchiate Etruria) to look at, then comb travel and art magazines for old clippings. Greek and Roman ruins, Egyptian or native designs, etc., nature scenes...what's lively to your eyes? Or you can do what Kiama does...pick one major or specific card from your decks and spend an hour or teatime with them. All these suggestions might refresh your senses because what you are using can feel stale or unengaging right them. And if you are tired, sometimes engaging in another visual thing isn't what you want. Mari H.

Astra	20 Jun 2003
There are things you know because you've learned them. In general, you can point to when and where you've learned them, and this tends to satisfy people when they want you to defend what you say. Then there are things that you know without having learned them, and knowledge that's available simply because you need it and ask for it. If you try to defend that to somebody else, you can't, unless they're willing to accept "it worked" as an explanation. Most people aren't - they want the i's dotted and the t's crossed (or vice versa). Worse, if you ask yourself "how do I know that?" YOU can't explain. This is a little scary for most people. Then there's knowledge that you might want or need that you don't know about, that you wouldn't normally think of looking for. Not necessarily willful blindness, just habits of thinking that don't look in certain corners and nooks. Using the Tarot, (or the I-Ching, or runes, or...) gives you a really neat way of getting around these problems. Not only do you have something to point to for a source of information, but a good layout with strong cards can shift your viewpoint so that you can realize you need different types of information, or need to ask different questions, or... Even a "great seer" needs an occasional change of viewpoint to get at some questions, and the Tarot is one of the better tools for that. If you're not sure about "reading", then do a layout and let it "talk" to you.

Rusty Neon	20 Jun 2003
During those times of lack of inspiration, what makes me try to keep going is remembering the time and money (for, you guessed it, books and decks) that I've invested in tarot. :)

firemaiden	20 Jun 2003
Such wonderful comments from all of you. I am thinking -- though I dearly love the cards as art objects, I am not finding them speaking to me. When I lay them out I just see pressed paper pulp with ink and coatings... Sort of like a cranky child, asking God for a "sign" -- hey tarot, if you can speak, speak to me; why am I just seeing paper? VIII - Strength 7 of Swords Ace of Swords I understand only the last card... it is saying "keep faith, here is a sign"...

Alta	20 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden why am I just seeing paper? VIII - Strength 7 of Swords Ace of Swords Used the Shining Tribe (my current fav deck). The reason the cards appear to you as flat pieces of cardboard is that you are having so much trouble with boundaries in your life. Boundaries are essential to communication, and when established properly between entities, they give rise to mutual understanding. Boundaries can be both too thick (everything has to fit its box) or too thin, when you feel threatened or even violated. The cards have seemed to you to have been entering your boundaries too easily and you need to rob them of their power. Instead of seeing them as gateways, 'traps for the unconscious' you are insisting on seeing them as hard edged and flat. Your body wants release, and it is pacing like a caged lion. You are having trouble finding the balance involved in a controlled release of strength. Strength is an important card for you, and mediating on its mysteries (over time, as you can) will be of great help to you. Your mind is looking for answers, or the start of answers. You cannot help but doubt such answers as may be found in this way. You mind wants the shining blade of logic and again, locks the brightly cards away for their disturbing tugs around the edges. Too distracting. :)

BoomVoom	20 Jun 2003
poor firemaden. i'm no expert, but i think that we simply have to decide for ower selves what we feal the cards should mean. i used to wory about the same thing and realized, eather way, i'm not alwais going to use the same deck and not all decks are goung to have the same meanings. so i just chose meanings i felt went beter with the cards. and actualy one of the best readings i ever recieved was with a little Lenormand deck of 32 cards, read by a lady who never had a constant meaning for each of the cards. this lady lerned to read cards with her grand mother and read in the most intuitive way i've ever seen. she's almost always right. seeing her read makes me want to read like her. but i don't! why? i think it's a simple case of relying too much on booklearned and theoretical card definitions. i think that many people are perhaps too obsessed with learning in a liniar way from written information and not eneuf from simple experience. so i say "poop" the books (especialy those named "1001 meanings for the 3 of wands" by Marcy Sunshine) and choos for your self. i think that in time we can develop the sence when we can tell that at one moment the card can mean one thing and a few moments later it can mean something els aswell. my question now is how long will that take. i still can't do it to well. but i'll be danged if i stop trying. dang i wanted this to be a short message. too late! but all this babbling has made me want to go read cards... ;) hope i helped in some smal way with your crisis. even though it is a bunch of babble! BoomVoom

Alta	20 Jun 2003
hehe, and besides, a good crisis is nothing if not entertaining (at least to your friends). :D :D

Khatruman	20 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden hey tarot, if you can speak, speak to me; why am I just seeing paper? VIII - Strength 7 of Swords Ace of Swords I understand only the last card... it is saying "keep faith, here is a sign"... yeah, here is the sign---STOP THINKING!!! Where's that past strength? Where is the fire wench dancing with the lion, taming the fierce beast? Why is she moving away to be the lone, independent thinker? Why is she applying logic? Go sing! Go put on some music you love, go sway and sing and let tarot come back to you... listen to the song, put away the Sword!!!

BoomVoom	20 Jun 2003
Marion, that's very good. do you do dreams to? ;) No, but seiously i do like your coment. :D very insightfull. you hit some good points. BoomVoom

Khatruman	20 Jun 2003
underlying problem: 5 of Swords... there you are, walking away, out of harmony as their backs are turned toward you.. you with all the swords, all the thoughts, but they won't face you. You have grabbed it, they have dropped their swords and walk to the waters... near at center: Ace of Wands... the heart of fire, of creativity.. you need to release that spark deep inside, hidden as you clutch so tightly onto your swords, your thoughts... element of change: XVI The Tower... strike it down with a bolt from heaven..turn it electric, crumble that tower, ignite the flame!!! Release that emotion whatever it is. EXPLODE! ADDED AFTER GOING BACK to your original post: Quote: The new frustration settles in now that I have (nearly) finished my compendium, and read so many threads on all the meanings of the cards.... OMG, there it is!! all that left-brained sorting, categorizing, putting everything into neat boxes... Umbrae had it (of course, doesn't he always?) You are way out in left-brained field.. Go Dance on a Volcano.... "Holy Mother of God You've got to go faster than that to get to the top Dirty old mountain All covered in smoke, she can turn you to stone So you better start doing it right better start doing it right You're halfway up and you're halfway down And the pack on your back is turning you around Throw it away, you won't need it up there, and remember You don't look back whatever you do Better start doing it right On your left and on your right Crosses are green and crosses are blue Your friends didn't make it through Out of the night and out of the dark Into the fire and into the fight Well that's the way the heroes go, ho! Ho! Ho! Through a crack in Mother Earth Blazing hot, the molten rock Spills out over the land And the lava's the lover who licks your boots away, hey! Hey! Hey! If you don't want to boil as well B - B - Better start the dance D - D - Do you want to dance with me The music's playing, the notes are right Put your left foot first and move into the light The edge of this hill is the edge of the world And you're going to cross you better start doing it right better start doing it right"

Alex	20 Jun 2003
The broader a definition is, the larger is the amount of objects/situations that will fit that definition. Conversely, a statement that explains everything has very little prediction power. Explains nothing. I have seen people who read on the edge of the broadest meaning for each card. They issue universal statements and can't go wrong. Some other people can narrow a reading down to a single meaning, frase, statement or advice that predict events or uncover feelings/motivations in a very "precise" way. These people risk to go wrong. If I say "tomorrow will be partly sunny with possibility of scattered showers and temperatures ranging from 0 to 40 degrees celcius" I'm very likely to be right no matter what. But if I say "it's going to rain tomorrow", and it doesn't, then it means that I was wrong. One cannot read cards with precision if one fails to narrow down the cards' meanings ... and precision is often at odds with accuracy. I'm on the same boat here, I'm not sure if this thing works. But IF it works, it must be by restricting the cards' meanings, not by broadening them to infinity. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden How can you possibly read, if any card can mean anything at all?? If you are a great seer, do you even need the cards to read? Otherwise, being just an ordinary citizen, if the cards can mean so many different things each, and also so many cards mean the same or similar things one to the other... how can you read???

jmd	20 Jun 2003
Isn't this also the problem with language... that it can mean something so precise, and yet mean also the totally unexpected in a given context. And then there are the rules which one needs to abide by in sentence and paragraph construction. 'pain' What does that 'i', embedded within that 'Pan', really mean? As to the whole word, it has already been referred to a number of times in this thread. If sliced with the acuteness of the blade of the Ace of Swords, its part analysis will but remain that. At times, it needs to be consumed in larger chunks, sweetened by the toppings of allegory or even the insights of the mystical experience. There the cards take on meanings afresh, yet remain those specific cards. At times, its literal interpretation may be best, at times, its looser allegorical feelings, at times, its interconnections within its myriad symbolism, and at others yet, its spiritual dimension, merely expressed but poorly in its image and three previous ways of penetrating beyond its veil. Again, as mentioned in other threads, the PaRDeS, or paradise, orchard or fruitful garden, of interpretation...

Alex	21 Jun 2003
Very bluntly speaking, I think you just don't need a sign from God so badly. When it turns out to be the case, a stalk of grass will do it. Sometimes we get advice in the proportion we really need advice. Using the cards to excercize is fine as a means to practice associations, but there's only any "magick" when you need so badly that they speak to you. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Sort of like a cranky child, asking God for a "sign" -- hey tarot, if you can speak, speak to me; why am I just seeing paper? VIII - Strength 7 of Swords Ace of Swords

Cerulean	21 Jun 2003
I don't know the decks you were playing with, but they can be just paper pictures at certain times, especially if one is thirsting inside for something else. Usually that signals to me I want to interact in another way. The small suggestions to engage one's visual reactions and interest might do me well for a stale or unsettled frame of mind...but if I'm in a very blue period with colored pieces of paper, it's time to do musical or other sense-oriented settling. I saw an excellent at first glance Courts Cards book in one of the Llewellyn series. The Thoth, Alchemical and Spiral Tarot courts looked especially good, even in the black and white version. Some of the suggestions was in seeing the courts as helpers in once instance, or as those who might be seen as instigators of an opposite feeling or obstacle in another. So seeing the court cards as personality aspects that could help or block tendencies might be helpful. Is there mood music to assist you while you check out a court card for yourself? I signed up for a card a day through the Aleph Neoclassico Tarocco just to help improve my study of a historical tarot...it actually was an interesting idea to have had a different suggested card for the past three days. The meanings seem Thothlike for the minors (Six of Swords = Science, for example), which is an interesting twist. Maybe you just need a break...have a good rest, when you get to it. Mari H.

Hedera	21 Jun 2003
Quote: "Holy Mother of God You've got to go faster than that to get to the top Dirty old mountain All covered in smoke, she can turn you to stone So you better start doing it right better start doing it right You're halfway up and you're halfway down And the pack on your back is turning you around Throw it away, you won't need it up there, and remember You don't look back whatever you do Better start doing it right On your left and on your right Crosses are green and crosses are blue Your friends didn't make it through Out of the night and out of the dark Into the fire and into the fight Well that's the way the heroes go, ho! Ho! Ho! Through a crack in Mother Earth Blazing hot, the molten rock Spills out over the land And the lava's the lover who licks your boots away, hey! Hey! Hey! If you don't want to boil as well B - B - Better start the dance D - D - Do you want to dance with me The music's playing, the notes are right Put your left foot first and move into the light The edge of this hill is the edge of the world And you're going to cross you better start doing it right better start doing it right" Hey, Khatruman, I really like this! Did you write it?

firemaiden	21 Jun 2003
I am so moved by all of your wonderful ideas, interepretations, and words of support. It certainly is helping me to start releasing out some of the frustration (albeit in the form of tears). Realizing -- this is of course not about the cards, exactly, but just about belief... a sort of crisis of confidence as Major Tom has put it. Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman underlying problem: 5 of Swords... This speaks loudly to me anyway, Khatruman... right now, this deep --- all pervading sense of defeat! Perhaps it is also the strong presense of my friend, R ( a cross between an angel and a devil) who in her sunny way, constantly pooh-poohs anything that speaks of... depth. The logic you all speak of, is perhaps coming from her.... I do not agree that there is such a thing as "thinking too much". But rather, not thinking the right things -- i.e. allowing doubts to enshroud right, clear thoughts. But doubts cannot be brushed aside either, or they just return and redouble. Last night I asked : what must I do to hear the messages of the cards: Came the 9 of swords (!!) and the 10 of swords (!!). Sounds to me like the only way out of the fire is through it...

firemaiden	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden How can you possibly read, if any card can mean anything at all?? If you are a great seer, do you even need the cards to read? Otherwise, being just an ordinary citizen, if the cards can mean so many different things each, and also so many cards mean the same or similar things one to the other... how can you read??? Thank you all of you for your generous insights. I did not really mean to stifle a more general discussion of how do you read? with my own life details.... I am interested to hear... beyond my own frustrations... how YOU read ...

Khatruman	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Hedera Hey, Khatruman, I really like this! Did you write it? Ahh, no...can't take credit for it.. it's a fairly old song by Genesis... Dance on a Volcano... but thanks anyway...:D

Khatruman	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I do not agree that there is such a thing as "thinking too much". But rather, not thinking the right things -- i.e. allowing doubts to enshroud right, clear thoughts. Actually, what I meant by thinking too much is looking at things too much on a thought level and not balancing that with feeling or creative level...being too left brained and logical and subverting your right brained. feeling, intuitive sense. That's why I suggested singing, dancing, anything that is more right brained and creative to get out of the left brained logical (and pooh poohing friend :D) I hope this helps.. sorry, must go..son is having a breakthrough moment in his phonics game...Woo hooo!!!

Alex	21 Jun 2003
When I read 4 myself, I read retrospectivelly. The chariot followed by the tower makes sense afer I crash the car. Lots of sense. For others... I must confess, I don't know... I'm OK at "reading" people, mostly if I can see them, and if I'm not in a relationship with them. I take most of my information staring at them in silence for a minute or so. Tone of voice, how they shuffle the cards, how they choose, whether they maintain eye contact with me or not, how they sit down, move, talk etc, also counts. Over the Internet, I pay attention to how people write their questions, or to special comments they make etc. Then I use the cards as anchors, to to give form to what is already like a foam in my head. In practice, I tend to foccus on the immagery of the cards, rather than their standard meaning ... unless I'm reading with playing cards. That's because something in the immagery is capable of giving meaningful form to that foam in my head. But I'm not crazy about my own reading abilities, therefore the way I do it is probably not the best. Satisfied your curiosity? Alex. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden .... I am interested to hear... beyond my own frustrations... how YOU read ...

rom	21 Jun 2003
if I try to crystalize my reading technique it is a combination of meaning [card inernally] and relation to the position [which is given by the layout]. This forms a discourse [a relation to other cards meaning and their realations to their positions]. all this gives a map [mirror] in which the question is reflected.... all thisa is then reflected from my reading eyes to my speaking mouth throgh the map into the person in question's awareness [breaking it to digestable data bytes]..... this is an art [15 years of experience ] and the question is great thank you firemaiden for asking it

galadrial	21 Jun 2003
I think that maybe you've been staring at cells in a microscope for too long. If you magnify cells, it is easier to see and describe their component parts, but harder to see that certain cells can make up an organ, that organs working together can create systems, and that systems controlled by some weird, mystical thing called life, or soul, or will, can be used for such diverse purposes as building, murder, childbirth, and prayer. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

firemaiden	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex When I read 4 myself, I read retrospectivelly. The chariot followed by the tower makes sense afer I crash the car. Lots of sense. That's funny, Alex. I mean... whoops, sorry, I am sure it wasn't (or wouldn't be) funny to crash a car.. but I mean, the way you said that was funny. :)

Alissa	21 Jun 2003
I would only add to honor your need to withdraw from reading for a while, if you need to. You've been up to your eyeballs in analysis alrgiht (I totally agree with Khat and everyone on that). So here is a smile mantra for you, I'll do it with you, ok? : I look to my confusion on tarot reading (on the in breath) I smile to my confusion on tarot reading (on the out breath) Repeat :D If sitting/meditating/prayer does sound desirable, this smile effect may help you find things your sorrow will not. In any case, honor yourself as a person with a mind that does not sit back, but pushes forwards and asks "why?" That means your reach will always exceed your grasp in life, but that is, in my opinion, the only way to live anyhow.

Astra	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Thank you all of you for your generous insights. I did not really mean to stifle a more general discussion of how do you read? with my own life details.... I am interested to hear... beyond my own frustrations... how YOU read ... How about "I dunno"? I can talk about how I prepare for a reading, and the spreads I may use, but how I actually do it is a black box to me. I do know that whenever in the past I actually "figured out" how it worked, it didn't, at least until I went back to wondering what would happen THIS time. I find that when I get stuck on a reading, one of the best things for me to do is to sit back and remind myself that I don't know how this works. Then I'm free again to see what will happen, rather than try to decide it in advance.

isthmus nekoi	21 Jun 2003
There's nothing wrong w/analyzing. But when analyzing falls out of step w/intuition you do have a problem. Same thing the other way round happens too and that is just as unfruitful. Best results happen when your mental horsepower is working as a team. But even the most experienced drivers can have trouble w/powerful horses every now and then :) As for reading technique... I think it's spilling something of yourself into the cards that make them readable for me. I let them act as containers of meaning when I'm reading.

firemaiden	21 Jun 2003
I guess my next heretical question is, how is any of this supposed to be accurate? I mean if you are reading for yourself, you know that it makes sense to your conscious mind at least. But reading for others, when you chose one of the swimming sixty-four different possible nuances for one card over another some... why? - You are following the little voice in your head ? - You are following cues from the Querant ? - You are considering the position of the card in the spread and the other cards around it ? Perhaps, unbeknowst to you, a thousand tiny cues from the querant have communicated themselves to you, traveling so fast that before you are even aware you have "read" the person, your inner voice has already assembled the information into something called "intuition". But what if the thousand tiny cues flying over to you from the querant's word choice, body temperature, odor, hairdo, diction, clothing, and whatever else composes their aura and energy meet, upon arriving into your mind, a thousand censors that, because of your own experiences, prejudices, chemistry, etc, cause a distortion of perception, and you choose wrongly?? I suppose given the panoply of choices before you, the accuracy of your interpretation will be only as accurate as your ability to turn off your own censors and judgements. How possible is that???? Or - do you believe, as does the reader of Dilogun, that the message is divinely inspired, and you are merely the transmitter? --See my thread Of Tarot, Dilogun, and Incarnated Beings -- if this is the case, our own ego is off the hook in the reading. We will have to learn however, how to channel the divine, and how to make ourselves as hollow and as empty of ourselves as vessels!! which, hilariously, amounts to quite the same thing as the ego-blasting I mentioned above. (It is also much the same as what I must do as a singer -- to transmit the message of the music!!) -- HAHAHAH

augursWell	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Confessions of Frustration from the Great Firemaiden. I guess it comes in waves. On again, off again. Sometimes Tarot is the most amazing thing since sliced bread, sometimes it is like -- what am I doing with this cardboard, asking it questions I should be asking myself? The new frustration settles in now that I have (nearly) finished my compendium, and read so many threads on all the meanings of the cards.... How can you possibly read, if any card can mean anything at all?? If you are a great seer, do you even need the cards to read? Otherwise, being just an ordinary citizen, if the cards can mean so many different things each, and also so many cards mean the same or similar things one to the other... how can you read??? I too go through "research" phases with tarot which is a good thing. But the research mode is not the "reading" mode. This is also a good thing. Reading mode is an attempt to go beyond your "book" knowledge in order to allow your own intuition and creativity to come through. This is also a good thing. Sorry, Martha Stewart("A Good Thing") has been in the news a lot lately here in the U.S. :D The point of using stupid little pictures on cardboard, or even looking out the window and picturing things in cloud formations, is that the research mode goes on vacation. The point is that the cards will not tell you a damn thing, only your brain/consciousness/intuition/whatever will tell you something as it reflects upon those images. Turn off research mode, look at the cards, look at the positions of the cards, look at the querent(even if that's you), and just find whatever sense you can in that whole mess. If something pops out from your research that relates to the layout or the card or the card in that position then include it. If something in the image of a sword on the card suggests your steak knife from the steak you had for dinner last night then include it. Your brain bounces off of all of this and attempts to find a meaning there. Give yourself time to pause and reflect and even argue with the layout, "That doesn't make any sense at all, does it?" The act of figuring out why it does, or doesn't, make sense in that position will open up new viewpoints on the question. I also wait until all of my internal dialogue about a layout is finished before I actually commit to an interpretation, either by speaking or writing the answer. Everybody on these forums are great, I'm not putting them down, but don't pay attention to their interpretations of your layout at all, for the purposes of this particular thread. Ignore them completely. Do another layout and don't tell a damn soul what it is. Leave it there on the table for days if you have to but come back to it and look at it until YOU feel you have gotten every ounce of meaning from it. I disagree that a card can mean "anything", it can't. This statement by you simply reflects you own confusion and frustration when you wrote the post. You are trying to make sense of it all. That is a Good Thing. Each card is actually quite specific in its imagery and there are only a limited range of things that can be suggested from a card, if you take it only on its face value. That's also why the deck you use matters, they all have different imagery. Ultimately you can "see" intuitive insights in anything that will suggest answers to you, I agree that a great seer does not need tarot cards. But tarot cards aid in focus by simplifying down to some of the most meaningful images. And besides, what would an Art lover like myself do in a world without Tarot cards? Why, make some, of course. :)

firemaiden	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by augursWell II disagree that a card can mean "anything", it can't. This [...] Each card is actually quite specific in its imagery and there are only a limited range of things that can be suggested from a card, if you take it only on its face value. That is quite reassuring to hear, but after putting together my "compendium", I am not sure this statement will bear up well up to scrutiny, especially when we include the steak knife...

augursWell	21 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden That is quite reassuring to hear, but after putting together my "compendium", I am not sure this statement will bear up well up to scrutiny, especially when we include the steak knife... So you are saying that your compendium does not allow a steak knife to be suggested by any of the cards in the suit of Swords? So if the subject of Martha Stewart came up during dinner last night while you were cutting your steak, looking at your steak knife and reflecting that Martha Stewart would probably not like this steak knife, then seeing your steak knife in a tarot card next to the Justice card in a layout -- this interpretation would not have any validity? Then F*^%k the compendium, throw it in the trash. (don't really through it in the trash, I'm a big researcher and always will be, that's just my reaction.) :)

firemaiden	22 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by augursWell So you are saying that your compendium does not allow a steak knife to be suggested by any of the cards in the suit of Swords? No, I am not saying that, and your comments following it offend me. I am saying that there appears to be much wild variation in how one approaches the cards, and that when we include our random associations, the variations and possibilities will grow to infinity.

Macavity	22 Jun 2003
I wouldn't let it worry you, O Great Fireperson? But I concede it depends whether one want to build the whole of one's FAITH on this? Perhaps heretical, but I consider my own "faith" (or absence thereof?) to be an independent issue. But, that aside, shouldn't this (here) be an vaguely enjoyable activity? Heck, I like it (mostly), but one wonders sometimes... It can get a little serious here? ;) I think your concerns are reasonable for anyone who seeks TRUTH, and are not e.g. "heresies". I think one of your previous posts encapsulated the problem very well. If Tarot were TRUE (sic), doubtless the (not hugely) "amazing" Randi and his ilk would be very poor (financially) men and Sagan et al. would've had to get back to their labs? Yet, conversely, I do dislike these "dumbing down" solutions, preferring to use all my (albeit limited) faculties - Granted tho', I might be more amenable to "believing anything"? One also remarks that faith-based traditions seem often to require "lost-sheep" (to save) and, if none are forthcoming, these are produced from within our OWN number. Don't laugh - It could be YOU next! }) I perhaps maintain my own enjoyment by having discrete states: my "tarot-ing" state and my (more usual) "scientific" state. The two are rarely in conflict, unless I get riled by someone blaming science for "everything" or claiming Einstein "proves" the truth of divination. IMO neither are observables. And, being a "Bear of limited brain" I still love my left-brain, books, logic and much more besides! I specifically like e.g. Crowley's keyword ideas, which I feel encapsulate much of what is going on in (dare I say) MOST decks. I probably base most of my own reading (sic) on just these. But then I also believe "the cards" are truly random and that we (even unconciously) use ALL of our powers of querent-appraisal and prejudices to produce the end result... :) I suspect "traditional" meanings are important. I am also e.g. just fine with the Three of Swords suggesting steak or heart surgery! But I feel that the first, e.g. "sorrow", may reflect some deeper, common, age-old human experience, captured in the archetypes. Then indeed, who are we to negate these in favour of our OWN "system"? I sense that readings are (invariably) based, to some extent, on tradition, which, I suspect, originated with someone like M. Alliette | Etteilla? Otherwise I'd be surprised e.g. if authors like Papus assigned suspiciously GD-like meanings to Marseille-like pip decks, by chance! But I'd have to check on that last random factoid ;) Tarot has many contradictions. It is e.g. (emphatically!) NOT (Esoteric) Tarot if it uses more or less cards - but "merely" divination? Yet it is apparently fine to use (mostly) "invented" meanings? It is as if there is... "Tarot", and some higher thing, to which only some folk can have (are permitted?) access. A bit like the amateur .vs. pro sports debate? Doubtless there are those who use Tarot as a means to achieve "more", but I do gently wonder if e.g. channeling/divinatory activities (albeit laudable) are simply a different objective to that of many, rather than some "ultimate" must-have aspiration? It often seems (in the "classic" Tarot literature) that noone makes any claims for Tarot being the "Truth" or anything else, yet, in practice, a sizable number of folk do seem to believe (deep-down) it is just that. Hey, who knows? I try (unsuccessfully, as evidenced!) to retain an open mind... :D Macavity

augursWell	22 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden No, I am not saying that, and your comments following it offend me. I am saying that there appears to be much wild variation in how one approaches the cards, and that when we include our random associations, the variations and possibilities will grow to infinity. I apologize for what I said, I was a bit frustrated yesterday. Sorry.

firemaiden	22 Jun 2003
I am delighted with the brilliant and thoughtful answers from all of you, and I must confess, I am already feeling much much less frustrated. :) :D :D ..attaboy....niiiiiiice tarot cards, gooooooooood tarot cards..

lawguy51	22 Jun 2003
Hey Firemaiden, just wadded through this thread. I too can get caught up in the many meanings of the cards. I write them all down in my journal and try to memorize different nuances. But when I do a reading, like the one I did for you one evening last spring, I just look at all the cards and immediately get a 'story' in my head, like a summary. Then I get down and dirty with each card. Maybe I get three quarters of the story. So then I go to my books. But for me, the key is to go with your initial 'guess'. When I do readings for members in the Exchange, I always make the 'guess' first. By 'guess', I mean, what's my instant reaction to the cards, without thinking about them, just looking at the pictures. Then I try to match the meanings to my 'guess'. Then I may go to my books or journal to find that nuanced meaning that fits with my 'guess'. Once I have the story, then I can concentrate on meanings, and the story allows me to discard many of the meanings of a cards. I think maybe, Firemaiden, that you are going straight to the meanings without giving that ole right brain a chance to take in the whole 'story', allowing yourself to see all the cards simultaneously, seeing, especiallly since I know you use the Thoth deck, all the colours...do they match or conflict, the numbers, the suits...there is so much stuff that you can just absorb without thinking about it. And when you do, the story, or the 'guess' pops up almost immediately. Don't sweat the 'valley' you find yourself in...I just climbed out recently and you will too. Your friend, Lawguy51

isthmus nekoi	22 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden But reading for others , when you chose one of the swimming sixty-four different possible nuances for one card over another some... why? - You are following the little voice in your head ? - You are following cues from the Querant ? - You are considering the position of the card in the spread and the other cards around it ? Tarot imagery can sometimes hit you a lot faster before anything in the upper brain can react. It can really hit below the belt in a way. I depend on anything visual that jumps out at me and says something like... verbal argument. From there, I am heavily dependant on the 3rd option of considering the context presented by the cards. Actually, I think querent cues can be distracting. I like cold readings b/c I'll have less bias. I did have a reading once where the reader told me not to say *anything*. This was before I had researched tarot, it was for fun. At the time I thought any 'accuracy' was derived from nonverbal cues from the querent and such like. I agreed to try to keep a poker face and kept mum. The thing that got me was that the guy would be *spot on* at first, and as if he doubted himself, he would begin to drift further away from his 1st impression ie. "you love learning, you probably like school and read lots of books.... um, maybe you aren't into academics though.... maybe you etc etc. But perhaps this is not so much tarot itself, but the reader's own psychic ability???

HOLMES	24 Jun 2003
regarding about the many little signals we might get when we read for a person. the true test for me was reading on the reading exchange, for at the time, i never shared this with many but when i first came to the forum i never read for anyone in an absentee fashion and really suprised at the time to see accurate feedback given. or rather feedback about accuracy given back . that my friend is the true test, for when we read in this fashion we can not read the body temperature, or read their face before we lay out the cards. at least for me. and not only that but also it give me more confidence when i went to read for people in a live fashion. when i read i see myself as a filter for divine message through my knowledge and experience and inuitive and trust in that inuition as well when i read for others. all my readings are on a spiritual level still, having not yet fashioned a pratical sense to the tarot readings. yet i sincerly believe it helps rather then hinders for me as i don't have to worry about accuracy, or trying to be a "psychic" that being said i was laying out the six of cups in the possible future this time i was away from the forum on a visit to my other reserve when i said wait wait,, this card says that if you stay here you will have love offered to you emotionally from someone who is from you past . the client mouth dropped open and her friend laughed giggly. and i just smiled for i was about to say something else when a inuitive flash came to me of what to say. :O)

jog1118	24 Jun 2003
belief in something (tarot) requires belief in yourself... yes, there is an infinite description of a card but if you believe your interpretation of that card, at that moment, for that person, at that situation...then no one can contest you. :smoker:

Kissa	19 Jul 2004
my turn to have a faith crisis. yesterday evening, stood in front of my too busy tarot deck/book shelf. was trying to decide which one to take upstairs with me for the evening ritual. stood there for a while and got all mad and frustrated. all these decks, all these books. stupid oop/rare/self published/expensive/ebay triumphs pieces of unsignificant cardboard and paper. i'd give all of them, and much more, to save our cat (old and sick). what is the point of trying to figure out my path from some drawings made by perfect strangers after a moron decided to order them in a certain way (A. Waite). was his life so much like mine that i can find answers to my questions in his ready for use system? should i surrender to the Tarot de Marseille then? Tarot at its purest, the Roots blablabla? but i am so hopeless at numerology... i should probably read these numerous "what makes tarot work?" threads but i am angry and frustrated and not ready to give up my anger yet. Diana told me to get rid of my decks, to keep the essentials. I am always afraid i will miss them and get an interest in them again once they are sold and even harder to get. how one can be so materialist???? they are just pieces of cardboard. sorry for the bad vibes. very very sorry. just had to let it out. k.

Diana	19 Jul 2004
Kissa: Did you read my Advice for Two Weeks?

augursWell	19 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa my turn to have a faith crisis. Diana told me to get rid of my decks, to keep the essentials. I am always afraid i will miss them and get an interest in them again once they are sold and even harder to get. how one can be so materialist???? they are just pieces of cardboard. One thing you might try is to just put all of them into a storage box and pack it away in the attic or wherever until you want to haul them out again. It seems your anger is directed at them, best to get them out of the way until you figure out the answer. Then you can decide if you want to sell them or whatever. They are not just pieces of cardboard even though some people on the forum refer to them that way sometimes. Art, of whatever quality, becomes part of the human mind even if the mode of delivery is just colored ink on small pieces of cardboard. It is the images and art that make tarot what it is and not the cardboard. I found myself looking at an old deck I hadn't looked at in probably a year and discovered all over again the beauty of the artwork on the cards. I think card readers always think in terms of doing a layout, getting a reading, give me, give me, give me. Many Tarot decks are simply artwork. My mind, and yours, connects with the art, even if you are just thumbing through the deck, and then gives you a meaning. Quote: i'd give all of them, and much more, to save our cat (old and sick). what is the point of trying to figure out my path from some drawings made by perfect strangers after a moron decided to order them in a certain way (A. Waite). was his life so much like mine that i can find answers to my questions in his ready for use system? I feel for you about your cat but in those situations with any living thing, human or otherwise, you can only be there and help and pay attention and have patience and wait. We all take the final journey alone but it's always great to have someone to see us off at the station. I remember following my old cat for one more trip around the yard, she insisted and took it upon herself, before she allowed me to confine her to a sick box. She died a few days later. I am glad I was there even though it was hard. I agree, perfect strangers and morons are not a good source for life's decisions. Your own judgement allows you to find the truth and the falsehood. It seems to me that you are able to recognize them, the morons, and that you should continue to do so. :)

Alta	19 Jul 2004
Kissa, don't throw out your decks or books. Box them up if you must. Be with your cat. Everything flows from one form into another.

tmgrl2	19 Jul 2004
Kissa. Thanks for bumping this thread forward. Now that I have read MANY of firemaiden's readings, her question seems to have answered itself. This week, though, I found myself in the same place. I had a friend in who is studying Tarot. She is working with RWS. We did some fun meditations together. I did one reading for her. Then I felt ...why do I do this? What does anyone get from a reading I do? Sometimes I read my own readings I have done in the past and think, "Who the h...does she think she is saying all this stuff?!" I decided to offer some readings. I was afraid if I didn't that I was on the verge of running away from reading....for a while or longer. So I plunged in. Two done to the best of my ability. I am tired right now but a good tired. I can't do the others till another day, but the commitment to do them, will give me at least two more readings. Then, maybe, I'll run. I won't box them all up, but I'll maybe leave for a bit. I don't know. I have been somewhat down lately about everything. So, when I read, I feel I have a commitment to do my best to reflect what I see. I guess these feelings and times come to all of us. I am new to reading. Diana's advice the first week I received it from her may be in order again. After I finish the next two readings, I think I need to stop. For a bit. terri

cartarum	20 Jul 2004
fire maiden, i think that we all have certain connections to certain card meanings. the page of swords for example, is the court for one of my best friends. so whenever it appears i automaticly designate it as something to do with my friend marshall. i have done this with all the courts ever since i quit asking tarot questions. the main reason being that whenever i asked the tarot a question, i always had to make really loose, iffy connections from the cards to the question. i dont like that cause it makes me feel as if im the one being played. what i discovered instead, was that when i asked about a relationship with a woman, and the page of swords came up covered in the devil reversed, i anticipated a break up. what i didnt know until later, was that the tarot was actually talking about marshalls pending job loss. as a matter of fact, the three of pentacles and the six of swords figured promanently in the spread. it is incredibly easy to misinterpret any spread, especially if you are reading for another. one time, i was reading with a student at a little gathering. what i read, was a pending division that one had forseen. then our friends mike and tyla broke up a little later. the interesting part was that there was no reversed devil to be found. this is the break up card. there was no indication that it was even talking about a relationship. simply a pending division. i thought it was the splitup of our party. so, the cards were talking to my student and not to me, regardless of the fact that she is a novice. because the split up came as a huge surprise to me. to my student, however mike and tyla had already broken up, and just needed to make it public. ~A~

cartarum	20 Jul 2004
fire maiden, i think that we all have certain connections to certain card meanings. the page of swords for example, is the court for one of my best friends. so whenever it appears i automaticly designate it as something to do with my friend marshall. i have done this with all the courts ever since i quit asking tarot questions. the main reason being that whenever i asked the tarot a question, i always had to make really loose, iffy connections from the cards to the question. i dont like that cause it makes me feel as if im the one being played. what i discovered instead, was that when i asked about a relationship with a woman, and the page of swords came up covered in the devil reversed, i anticipated a break up. what i didnt know until later, was that the tarot was actually talking about marshalls pending job loss. as a matter of fact, the three of pentacles and the six of swords figured promanently in the spread. it is incredibly easy to misinterpret any spread, especially if you are reading for another. one time, i was reading with a student at a little gathering. what i read, was a pending division that one had forseen. then our friends mike and tyla broke up a little later. the interesting part was that there was no reversed devil to be found. this is the break up card. there was no indication that it was even talking about a relationship. simply a pending division. i thought it was the splitup of our party. so, the cards were talking to my student and not to me, regardless of the fact that she is a novice. because the split up came as a huge surprise to me. to my student, however mike and tyla had already broken up, and just needed to make it public. ~A~

firemaiden	21 Jul 2004
It is amusing to find my old thread on crisis of faith has been revived. I no longer have this particular crisis of faith. (Although there are/have been/will be many others) -- because I no longer expect the cards themselves to provide the meaning.

tmgrl2	21 Jul 2004
I have never yet expected the cards themselves to provide me with meaning. I am still in the beginning stages of my own Tarot experience. I read and others read for me. When the reading helps me along and if others tell me even one thing in the reading moved them forward in any domain, then I consider..."well done." Beyond that, I believe we can connect to the cosmic in any fashion if we wish and practice. But, like you, firemaiden, the cards certainly are a box or bag of pretty pictures. The Bruegels you used for me are on order. Love them! It is definitely the pictures that draw me. In the Tarot de Marseille, the pips place me in a different kind of zone. For now, I move forward with Tarot. I'm letting it take me. I think it may be the paintbrush I thought I dropped. Something (a Bruegel, I think) made me glance down and see it. It almost fell into the chasm with me. t2

smleite	21 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa i'd give all of them, and much more, to save our cat Kissa, I would give my Tarot deck (only have one presently - a Marseilles deck -and feel absolutely no urge to own another), to save my cat, or even to save the smallest of my houseplants (but maybe not to save a bug, though…). Silvia

tmgrl2	21 Jul 2004
Kissa...I, too, would extend the life of your cat for many years, if I could by giving away all of my Tarot stuff....Can't every replace that kitty... terri

Satori	21 Jul 2004
This is so funny to see Firemaiden stand up and say, I am no longer having a crisis of faith....but the thread exists and now it is coming back to you! It is like finding someone's wallet or a scrapbook in the attic and you turn the pages and re-live those precious moments with the protagonist. This is the ripple in the pond in action. You dropped the first droplet of water when you posted this thread. Now the ripples are coming back to you and look at the benefit so many people have had from your crisis of faith, but only because you shared it!

The Tarot Frustrations : Crisis of Faith thread was originally posted on 20 Jun 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.