Giving Readers a Bad Name

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Jul 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Shoshin	23 Jul 2003
This is really too bad. It'll make people think twice about a legitimate reader. http://www.ctnow.com/news/local/hc-psychic0723.artjul23,0,5779917.story?coll=hc-headlines-local

Alissa	23 Jul 2003
Pollyanna pops in ... On the good side, that's one less fraud out on the streets. Psychic shake downs happen. Then, sometimes, undercover cops show up. Good thing too. Con men give our "profession" a bad name. Unfortunately, the bad is always what's seen in the papers, so yea, some people may think twice about going to a reader, especially one they don't know. But, most people have the smarts to know the difference between the occassional visit to their favorite psychic, and multitudinous, yet ineffective, visits to a flim flam (wo)man, I think.

sagitarian	23 Jul 2003
Wow, what a story. People shouldn't rely on psychics for their answers, they should see us as friendly advice, not words to live by. I just can't believe though that a psychic would charge that much and give out that much mumbo jumbo, unbelievable!

Astra	23 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by sagitarian Wow, what a story. People shouldn't rely on psychics for their answers, they should see us as friendly advice, not words to live by. I just can't believe though that a psychic would charge that much and give out that much mumbo jumbo, unbelievable! Hey, sagitarian - psychics DON'T charge that much and give out that much mumbo jumbo - only fakes do. The problem is that there's no way to tell the fakes from the psychics unless you're already a psychic - and the fakes generally put on a much showier act.

catti	23 Jul 2003
while i dont agree with taking $ 20,000 from someone to bring their boyfriend back, noone forced that woman to go to the "psychic tarot reader who dabbles in proto voodoo" . I mean quite frankly there are alot of therapists out there that talk alot of (IMHO) garbage at people for ridiculous prices. And have preyed on people in emotionally sensitive situations. I can see the woman ( the "victim") going to the cops if the psychic had threatened her or the boyfriend in some way. Saying the woman would be cursed if she didnt buy the remedy or whatever, but she was going back because she wanted to . I would feel different about this if somehow the victim was targeted, like some of the phone pyschic scams i have read about where elderly are targeted. but this? the woman went of her own free will trying to get another to change the free will of her boyfriend. At what point did it occur to her that the boyfriend and the psychic werent worth the money? At $10,000. At $14,000? I know I am walking a fine line here, but I dont see anything wrong with charging for services. I dont belive in price gouging but people need to be responsible for themselves. Like if a woman lost $20,000 to a casino, it was because she was trying her luck. If you spend $10,000 on joint therapy to save your marriage and it doesnt work and your counselor suggest a get away / therapy thing can you go to the police saying your being scammed? I'm sure there is a flaw in my reasoning someone will point out , The thing is the woman wasnt exactly innocent , she burned an effigy of her boyfriend ( it was meant to represent him) to get him to do something against his will. She got burned too. just my $.02 catti

MeeWah	23 Jul 2003
Catti: Thanks for your very succinct comments. I agree.

wavebreaker	23 Jul 2003
Catti: I couldn't agree more. As long as there are people who are stupid enough to be cheated out of $20,000 for nothing, there will be people willing to take their money... ;) It's just a pity that it's the readers and psychics who are getting a bad name out of this, not the clients...

MystiqueMoonlight	24 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astra Hey, sagitarian - psychics DON'T charge that much and give out that much mumbo jumbo - only fakes do. The problem is that there's no way to tell the fakes from the psychics unless you're already a psychic - and the fakes generally put on a much showier act. Jon Edwards for example..... :smoker:

Trogon	24 Jul 2003
Catti, you definitely made some good points there. The woman definitely went to this "person" of her own free will. She was doing things to try to alter the behavior of her boyfriend. However, where I can't agree is that it is her fault that she was ripped off. Coming at this from a law enforcement perspective, I have seen many people who have been victims of various "scams", and not a single one of them asked to have their money or property taken from them. This scam artist was preying on vulnerable people - and I'd guess that she has ripped off dozens of others who were just too embarrassed to report it, or didn't know where to report it. That is how these scam artists get away with their thievery for so long. Lets look at this from a slightly different viewpoint. If you were having a minor problem with your car - say it was running rough, or not idling right, and you took it to a mechanic. You get your car back and its running fine now, but he hands you a bill for $1,500.00 - tells you he had to put in a new carburator. Happens all the time, right? There's an extremely good chance you've just been ripped off - simple adjustments and replacing a couple of filters were what he probably did. Unscrupulous auto mechanics are busted all over the country almost every week - and mostly they prey on women and the elderly. They'll perform a little bit of maintenance and charge thousands of dollars for parts and labour that were never done, and were never needed. This is the same sort of scam as the person performing meaningless rituals and charging thousands of dollars for them. In both of these instances the victim has gone to someone from whom they were expecting help. Instead they are victimized. To me, there can not be any justification of it from the perspective of the victim going and asking for the help. And, yes, you are correct, there are undoubtedly professional psychologists and therapists who do rip off and victimize their patients in many ways. There is no excuse for that either, and when they are discovered they need to be prosecuted - unfortunately, they seldomly are. No... I have to agree with Alissa here... I'm glad to have one more scam artist off the street. It breaks my heart every time I hear about some scam going on and thinking of the people who are falling victim to it. The "Bank Examiner" scheme still occurs all over the country for instance - and this one targets retired folks and ends up wiping them out of their entire savings. And if you want to look at a huge scam which is still occasionally in the news, one where the victims went into it voluntarily... just think "Enron". How many people lost their entire retirement funds, huge chunks of their investments, because of all of that?

Diana	24 Jul 2003
We have a lot of these frauds in Europe. They rip off people in the most amazing ways! But I don't think we have laws about them - I don't recall anyone ever being taken to court about it. But maybe they have and I've never read about it. But there was a Tarot reader in my area who got busted by the tax authorities recently. She wasn't declaring her Tarot revenues - and didn't realise that one of her "clients" was a tax inspector. A few months later, she was asked to visit the tax place to finalise something on her tax form, and to her great suprise, who was sitting there in the chair waiting for her? Her "client"..... Needless to say, she now declares all her revenues. :laugh:

Dallandra	25 Jul 2003
I guess the question I have is At what point is it fraud? If you went to a psychic or magician or something and asked them for help and they melted a wax man and you paid $20 for it, is it a scam then? If it doesn't work, but the practitioner believes in their work? It just seems like such a grey area, where do you draw the line?

MystiqueMoonlight	25 Jul 2003
The line is drawn when a person is doing spells for someone. Especially when it involves the manipulation of a 3rd person. It doesn't matter whether he/she is experienced, wicca, witch, magician, whatever.

Armande	25 Jul 2003
I am glad to hear another fraud is off the street. Personally I think that any action involving melting dolls to get something done, and/or power over another person is not only fraud, but also very manipulative. That seems to be the common denominator with so-called psychics: it generally means advice (read: tricks) for the client so that the client can get his/her way in some situation. Whenever that comes online, I think it's a fraud, but the client is not innocent either. So for the issue is not whether or not you pay for it (although $ 20,000 is a ludicrous amount of money), it's about manipulating, trying to get your way.

MeeWah	25 Jul 2003
Trogon: Thanks for your enlightening comments from your knowledge & experience of scam artists in general, professional or otherwise. Ye have provided an eloquent reminder that there are predators in our midst & they come from every walk of life & in every guise. Whilst I am still of the view that ultimately each person bears a larger portion of the responsibility for their decisions, 'tis evident that not all are informed/aware consumers for one reason or another.

catti	25 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight The line is drawn when a person is doing spells for someone. Especially when it involves the manipulation of a 3rd person. It doesn't matter whether he/she is experienced, wicca, witch, magician, whatever. i dont understand what you mean. spells cannot be performed for money? or if they are it is always a hoax?

catti	25 Jul 2003
This is the same sort of scam as the person performing meaningless rituals and charging thousands of dollars for them. In both of these instances the victim has gone to someone from whom they were expecting help. Instead they are victimized. To me, there can not be any justification of it from the perspective of the victim going and asking for the help. sorry trogon about the sloppy quote job, i am still working on the technical aspects of aeclectic. thousands of dollars for meaningful rituals is ok? I think that due to the amount of money/gifts the victim in this instance lost and the time that it took place ( i think the article said over a year), that there is no justificating what the "psychic" did. If she hadnt been scamming she would have said to her client " this is not working" before her client lost that kind of money. But she was arrested for the $495, that the undercover cop paid for over several visits....which makes me think the psychic was guaranteeing her work? .....but that makes me wonder about that fine line everyone is talking about. It seems some people feel like no one should charge for spellwork, I dont agree with that. And what is a fair fee for one person may not be for another. so lets go to what i asked Mystique " what is the line all about, who draws it and where is it "

Astra	25 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight The line is drawn when a person is doing spells for someone. Especially when it involves the manipulation of a 3rd person. It doesn't matter whether he/she is experienced, wicca, witch, magician, whatever. I have to disagree. Fraud is defined as taking money for services or products when there is no intent to perform the services or deliver the described products. Since proving intent is a can of worms, it's more often prosecuted when the products involved are, or should be, tangible. When you get into intangibles, it gets really, really messy, which makes phony psychics one of the most potentially lucrative (and safest) scams around. After all, you can't prove that the intent wasn't to get rid of a curse when nobody knows how to rigorously define a curse. All you can do is track the offender and try to prove they have a pattern of making money from "discovering" curses and then getting money paid to them for an attempt to "remove" them. This makes being able to identify people doing business as psychics a primary factor in effective enforcement of the fraud laws. Actually, what it primarily does is send the scam artists to another location which doesn't have this type of law, or where it isn't enforced, but that does generally work toward giving the real working psychics a better reputation in the area.

DarkElectric	26 Jul 2003
I think this is an example, in action, of why my priestess ALWAYS told me, "Never charge money when someone asks for your magickal assistance." People have tried to give me money for magickal help received. I won't accept it, but seeing as some form of exchange, is nice, I suggest they bake me a pie, or some brownies. A jar of homemade pickles is always welcomed! I do charge for Tarot reading, that's a different thing to me than spellwork. There were several things about this occurrence, which bother me immensely. 1) Vernon, CT happens to be right next to Ellington CT. Because of this, everone in the vicinity is going to be checked out, and investigated. It always happens. Of course, Ellington is where I read for the public, and I can't wait to have the fraud squad come in. At least I will give an ethical reading,and when the decoy asks for "Help" I'll give them the same help I give everyone. That help is advice to solve the problem themself. Sounds cold, but I can't solve anyone's problems, and I tell them so. 2) The article was condemning "Useless Rituals" and outlining magickal candleburning, crystal use, the appropriation of the shirt from the "Boyfriend" of the decoy, etc, etc. These are all real spellworking techniques, which can be very effective. I say this, because I've seen it happen. Now, as a witch, if someone comes looking for a spell to help with a problem, and, there is no problem, because the decoy is a fake, then naturally, if there isn't any problem, then there will be no result...So, seeing as how a negative cannot be proven, well, there it is. However, in the case of "Dorothy Adams", her magick apparently wasn't working. I think her magick was working. But I doubt that what "D.A" was working FOR was her client's welfare at all. This smells like magick to me, alright, but of a distinctly nefarious kind. What bothers me is that the article implies that magickal practices are fraudulent, and don't work. In my experience, nothing can be further from the truth. They work, and sometimes much better than expected. But if a strong sense of ethics is not held by the magickal practitioner, then all kinds of heinous abuses are possible. I think the attitude that "Magick doesn't work, it's all Hooey" is the real superstition. I've heard several different arguments stating that ~ 1) "Magick worked against you doesn't work if you don't believe in it" 2) ~ "It will work whether you believe in it or not based on the skill of the practitioner." I firmly agree with #2, because I've actually SEEN the result of someone who was an unbeliever, and was "worked" by someone else, who definitely knew what they were doing. That stuff is ugly, and I won't do it. But there are obviously unscrupulous people who will. And I express skepticism that "D.A" was seriously working to solve this cash cow client's problem...I think she was working some form of personal prosperity magick and glamoury so the client would keep coming back, and give HER more money. It was bound to fail, and recoil upon her, because of the evil nature of the work. This is also an excellent example of the threefold law of return.

MeeWah	27 Jul 2003
I tend to agree with Dark Electric. Magickal practices can & do work as they deal with the handling & direction of creative energy that is inherent in everyone. Responsibility accompanies the use of such energy as for every action, there is a reaction; the three-fold law of return or karma. I do not recall all the details now, but a few years ago a local "psychic" was prosecuted for an excessive amount of money (four figures) from a male client. The exact nature of the services rendered was unclear, but the woman insisted most of what she received were "gifts", consisting of money & merchandise. It was not the client who charged her with fraud but his family. I did not get to follow the case closely & do not know the outcome but the last article I read seemed to indicate the ruling would be against the woman. A Christian reading client wanted help to achieve full-time status at her employment for a better income & access to medical insurance. She also needed to find an affordable, reliable used car that did not require repairs. She had been at the mercy of her old car whose repairs were draining her already strained resources. She was not comfortable with the idea of perfoming spellwork herself & I prefer not to get involved with ritualistic work for others. I explained she could empower herself to meet her needs by incorporating spellwork techniques in prayerwork since spellwork is basically prayerwork *with props*. Wording is very important because words have power so one must be careful what one expresses. Since thoughts & imagery are things, they are also important since what one chooses to hold in one's consciousness can manifest. With her agreement, I drafted a procedure that she could implement on a daily basis. It incorporated the use of positive thinking, detailed visual imagery, a prosperity prayer & props. I advised her to look for job postings at her company; choose one most appropriate for her skills & work experience; fill out an application & place it on her altar. She was to see herself working in the desired position. I asked her to find a picture of the type of car she wanted (from a newspaper or magazine) to help her reinforce the visualization of her "new" car in detail & place it on her altar. I gave her a toy bank in the shape of car which she also put on her altar. She was to drop any spare coins & paper money in it daily to draw both money & the car to her. The prayer was to be recited daily. About two months later, she told me she got the job & the car. She was also seeing a general improvement in other areas of her life.

Armande	27 Jul 2003
*grin* I love the phrase "prayer with props". Now that I reread it, I may have given the impression that I think all spellwork is fraudulent and that is not my opinion. The example as given by Meewah is an honest request. I was indicating at people who request spellwork directed at other people, asking for the other person coming back to them, or for others to have bad luck, or pay them back for something. I call that the witch-doctorstuff. And those I find manipulative. It's different to create certain things in your life. Btw, I always work with the phrase "for the benefit of all concerned". So that my good fortune is not at the expense of someone else. I have no experience with asking money for spellwork. Never done that. I am a sloppy witch as it is... :P

MeeWah	27 Jul 2003
Armande: I understood but your clarification is appreciated. & 'tis always wise to include a "disclaimer"; to cover all bases such as one's back.

Kiama	28 Jul 2003
The one thing that springs to my mind after reading the news article is that the 'victim' was stupid and had more money than sense: Throwing $20,000 at a 'psychic' (and a fake one at that!) is not going to solve your life problems! If the 'victim' had used that $20,000 to properly sort things out, instead of relying on somebody else to do 'rituals' for her, she would probably be out of the problems by now. She'd also be alot happier and alot richer! I am glad that this fake psychic is off the streets, and it annoys me that this may give Tarot readers a bad name. After all, there is still the stigma attached to us of 'fraud'. But one thing I always tell people I read for, and the one thing I will say now, is that a Tarot reading is only guidance. It is not the solution. In other words, it is the means to the end, but at the same time it is not the sole means and must be used in conjunction with such things as common sense, pro-activity, etc in order to achieve anything. Kiama

DarkElectric	28 Jul 2003
I truly hope she's off the streets. Especially since she pulled this awful stunt one town away from the store I read in. That's a reputable shop, and my friend Mary, who owns it, does Reiki there. I'm only there one day a week, but Mary is trying to make a living from this little store, and several other ethical metaphysical businesses in the area are trying to survive too. This is a really small place, and I just hope this doesn't taint and unjustly colour their fine establishments. One fraud can ruin a lot of people's credibility.

catti	28 Jul 2003
but it does touch on the incident . from what i have read there are alot of you who believe that money for spellwork is bad, fraud, and just plain wrong. so i am curious : why do so many witches have a problem with taking money for spells but will accept gifts

MystiqueMoonlight	28 Jul 2003
I personally have no issues charging for readings. It's like charging for anything else. The recipient takes it a bit more seriously if they have to pay for it. But..... I do not condone doing spells for people. Free or charged. I do not understand why one would perform a spell for a stranger to influence or effect the life of another unknown third party or even for that person directly. First - part of the effect of any spell is through the desire or need element. How can one effect a spell when the "personal" need is not present? For example; I would not want or need for Jane Doe to have that new job on a personal level. Second - It is unethical to effect the life of someone else. What right does a person have to influence the personal karma of another? Life is not a fairy tale or a like that silly programme on tv (Charmed!....eeeew). It just really erks me when I hear about so called witches, wiccans or what ever they want to call themselves foolishly and half heartedly dabbling in spellworking with no real idea of what they are doing or how it is effecting the Karma in lives. Ok I'm getting off my soap box now :)

HudsonGray	28 Jul 2003
Right, there are very few exceptions where I'd help someone do an influence on another--one is a healing spell to send general energy to someone who drastically needs it for healing, the other would be a protection for a child. Possibly also something to protect against a stalker or attacker, but I"ve never had to do the last two. Those would be the only ones I'd even consider doing for a third party. Though I have helped (for free, I never charged anyone) someone who had lost a cat & wanted her to find her way home. The cat was recovered, though was 5 miles away (I can't take any credit, the owner was plastering 'Lost' signs everywhere & found her that way).

joya250	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama The one thing that springs to my mind after reading the news article is that the 'victim' was stupid and had more money than sense... I think the key word here is VICTIM. It is easy to judge when one is an outsider -- saying that the person was "stupid" or whatever (no offense, Kiama, just using your post as an example)... I have witnessed a similar thing happen to a dear friend, and I do not consider her "stupid" or any other derogatroy comment. If anything, she was overwhelmed by her life circumstances and just wanting to "do the right thing." Well, the tarot card reader (that she had gone to before and apparently had gotten good readings for years!?) had her convinced that she was under physic attack. Over the course of the next several months, she lost thousands (!) of dollars to the reader. Yes, she should have know better on some level... but trust me, these people are good at what they do. Scamming is their full-time job. That is why it is a CRIME. Do you blame the rape victim for the rape? Or the murder victim for the murder? Yes, I know... that's a harsh comparision, but one to consider nonetheless. I think one of the factors in this case that may be causing people to "trash" the victim... is her manipulative intent and the "mis-use" or "abuse" of magic (trying to enact her will over her boyfriends....) No, I do not agree with her intent... but the fact of the matter remains... she was still a victim.... and there are sleazy people out there who will do anything to make a buck. argh. I dunno. just had to give my thoughts, as this strikes close to home. ..... although now I am wondering about the point someone made earlier... if a person BELIEVES in what they are doing (spells, etc.) and charges for it, but it has no "substantial proof" or results.... man, what kind of fine line is that??

MeeWah	30 Jul 2003
Joya250: Thanks for your succinct illustration of what can happen to the best of us. No one is necessarly immune to the predators of the world. Your friend may have been "set up" with apparently bona-fide readings to make her more receptive; or perhaps the reader just got greedy. Or a bit of both. I also think that the mis-guided intent of the person mentioned earlier in this thread influences the less sympathetic view. Regarding the lack of substantial results or proof--that would tend to speak volumes. The unscrupulous prey on the dreams & hopes. I became aware that a reading client was seeing other readers after she began making comments during & after reading sessions referring to other readers. They all charged her by the minute, the going rate here & I figured out she was spending a lot of money. The few with me had produced similar results with no appreciable changes over a period of a few months. That in itself is not very unusual as it depends on the individual & circumstances, but I was disturbed by the frequency with which she got readings in general from me & others. There were also increasing indications of progressively worsening conditions that were ignored; a lack of reality & understanding or a refusal to listen, etc. I had not charged her each time because I understood she could not afford it, but the pattern I was seeing was alarming. In the last reading before I refused subsequent requests, I saw obsessive behaviour & mental chaos. I urged her to seek medical help for the sake of her young chiild (signs of inappropriate attention to his needs) & for her own well-being to address the insomnia & depression as both affect the mental & emotional balance. I also explained that frequent readings do not result in a desired outcome but can cause more confusion.

Alex	30 Jul 2003
power imbalance When you read for a client who comes to you for advice, you establish with that client what generally is called a "helping relationship". Helping relationships are per se imbalanced. You are in a position to give advice and comfort, and the client, by the very nature of the relationship, in a vulnerable position. The problem with helping relationships becomes more and more complex as some kind of regularity is established. I used to moderate a discussion list for clients abused by counselors, hypnosis facilitators, teachers and other professionals in helping relationships, and I was often amazed by how those people let themselves be abused over and over for years, until they would say a thing, speak up, stand up for themselves. IT is easy to say that someone must be such an idiot to pay a reader so much money to fix his or her relationship. I also think it's pretty dumb. However, we have to take into account the vulnerable psychological state people are in, when they come through the door_ an easy prey for malicious professionals. It is a very serious subject that should be discussed in way more depth. I particularly think that we do not have the right discourage punishment of mischief just because naiveté exists. There are naïve people, there are vulnerable people, and the ones who abuse them should go to jail. The ones who charge to abuse trust should spend twice longer in jail. Alex

wavebreaker	31 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by joya250 I think the key word here is VICTIM. I do agree that people who have been tricked into spending all their money are victims and that the frauds, who abused other people's trust and naivete, should be punished for that. But I think there's also such a thing as own responsibility. You'd think people would learn from these stories and be more careful about who they give their money to and how much they are willing to spend, but it happens again and again. So basically I think cases like these aren't just black and white.

Kiama	31 Jul 2003
Joya: Apologies if my choice of words offended you. 'Stupid' to me, is not as derogatory as most words around, and I use it to describe an action that was not clearly thought out, etc. I too, had a close friend who was in a similar situation. They tried to push their personal responsibility onto a fraud who couldn't help them and who was trying to make my friend even more reliant on them. To me, trying to run from your personal responsibilities falls under my personal concept of 'stupid': An action not clearly thought out. Kiama

Diana	31 Jul 2003
I tend to see these kinds of frauds in the same light as I do cult leaders or sect leaders. They prey on the vulnerable...... and once they have you in their snare, you can't get out..... because they have made you even more vulnerable. It's a spiral that is very very hard to get out of. Fear can be a terrible master. Put it together with ignorance, and you have the perfect victim.

MystiqueMoonlight	31 Jul 2003
Yes, but our silent protests of the cheats and frauds are only band aids to the wound of disbelief.....

Trogon	01 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catti thousands of dollars for meaningful rituals is ok? I think that due to the amount of money/gifts the victim in this instance lost and the time that it took place ( i think the article said over a year), that there is no justificating what the "psychic" did. Hi catti, No, I wasn't saying that at all. Victimizing people, taking tens of thousands of dollars for a series of rituals which are designed to keep the victim coming back and spending more money is wrong. This is what these perpetrators of fraud are doing. I would hope that a person who genuinely wanted to help people would not do so by intentionally draining that person's bank account. Quote: Originally posted by Kiama The one thing that springs to my mind after reading the news article is that the 'victim' was stupid and had more money than sense: Throwing $20,000 at a 'psychic' (and a fake one at that!) is not going to solve your life problems! I understand just what you mean Kiama, as well as by your subsequent comments. At least once every couple of months the police department I work at receives a notice from some other agency (usually a large city) about the "bank examiner" scam. This has been one of the most widely publicised scams going... news shows have talked about, "America's Most Wanted" and "Unsolved Mysteries" have covered it numerous times, newspapers and magazines have all done articles on it. And still, every year, these scam artists are ripping people off for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can't help but wonder why so many people still fall for it. I am constantly amazed at how many people leave valuable items (cameras, stereos, bicycles, even money) laying around. I'm even more amazed that more of it isn't stolen. Did the people going to this "psychic" go there without thinking about the possibility of getting ripped off? Yes. Did at least the one person mentioned in the article, go there with the intention of manipulating her boyfriend? Yes. Her intentions were questionable, she also put herself in a position where she could get ripped off. But... she was still a victim and the "psychic" saw her coming and did everything in her power to take that woman for every cent she could. Unfortunately victims often put themselves in questionable circumstances. But there still has to be someone out there with a disposition to victimize them. However... I feel I'm starting to ramble a bit... must be getting tired... ;) My point is, that regardles of how vulnerable, naieve, unthinking or even stupid the woman was, the other woman still had to have a criminal bent... she wanted to rip her off and she did. I also am wondering how many dozens or even hundreds of other people she's duped over the years. These scam artists are almost never caught quickly... she had probably operated for a long time and separated a lot of people from their money before she was caught. Thats the way it normally goes...

DeLani	02 Aug 2003
I'm leaning more towards the camp that the victim is not entirely blameless. Sure, the fake psychic appears to have been scamming her, and deserves to be prosecuted for fraud. But really now, just how overwhelmed do you have to be to throw thousands of dollars at a psychic to bring your boyfriend back? I guess it comes from my working class background - I think we get raised with a little more practicality than the rich (as a generalization - I know there are plenty of exceptions to this). Comparing psychic fraud to rape or murder is totally wrong. I'm sure those "psychics" never used physical force, or held a knife or a gun to their victims. Even if they used verbal coercion - "you will suffer a terrible curse..." - do you believe everything everyone tells you? I just hope that Dorothy learns this hard lesson, and now has a more level head on her shoulders, and doesn't just roll over and play doormat for anyone anymore. But, knowing how our wonderfully co-dependant enabling society works, I'm sure she'll be encouraged to wallow in her victimhood until someone else, with an even better scam, swoops in to take advantage of her. On the subject of where the line is drawn, I'm really hot on this one. How do you prove intent? I mean, if we go by the rationale of "did you see any results?", when are the undercover cops going to start busting priests and preachers? I mean, why wouldn't the mainstream clergy be held to the same standard? I see that all the time - just look at televangelists who promise to pray for you or heal you for some "donation." Those are the biggest scam artists. And all totally tax-free. I have done some spellwork for other people, but not for money. Just because they were friends. I don't have any problem with charging money for spellwork per se, because that is the societal function of the witch - to make things happen for the villagers that they don't have the ability to (yes, I know we *all* have the inner power, but some people don't want to spend the time and discipline needed to develop those powers). But I would never do anything unethical like trying to manipulate another person or anything like that. And I am glad that ther is one less B.S. reader out there, but not so glad about how that makes us look. Now I suppose we're all going to have to be on the lookout for undercover narcs. This reminds me of the struggle that Z. Budapest went through in 1975. She was arrested for reading tarot cards in California! They sent an undercover cop in for a reading. The cop testified in court that the reading was accurate, thereby proving that Z was, in fact, fortunetelling, so, she was guilty! I hope we in the US remember her struggle. Until then, it was illegal to read the tarot in Calilfornia. It's still that way in some states, as I understand. It's just not enforced. So I suppose I've ruffled some feathers. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Please don't take it personally. I'm just giving my opinion on it.

catti	02 Aug 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Trogon Hi catti, No, I wasn't saying that at all. Victimizing people, taking tens of thousands of dollars for a series of rituals which are designed to keep the victim coming back and spending more money is wrong. This is what these perpetrators of fraud are doing.[quote] hello trogon, i am playing devils advcocate right now, be warned ;-) there is a part of this story that we dont know from the article, but i wondered if the rituals etc...did in fact have effect. What the accused did, as others have posted, are recognized as effective in magical ritual so let us say, for the sake of argument, that the girl did in fact get the boy back, but because he was coming back only because of the spell work he kept leaving ( or in all likely hood came back for sex pleasure and not "true" love), and she had to keep doing spells to keep him. A year and $20,000 makes me think she must have seen some results. If that was the case then the victim has no claim. and the police sting? well there was no boyfriend to get back so of course the rituals were ineffective. [quote] Did the people going to this "psychic" go there without thinking about the possibility of getting ripped off? Yes. Did at least the one person mentioned in the article, go there with the intention of manipulating her boyfriend? Yes. Her intentions were questionable, she also put herself in a position where she could get ripped off. But... she was still a victim and the "psychic" saw her coming and did everything in her power to take that woman for every cent she could. [quote] i know i am being argumentative, but why are we assuming that the psychic is guilty. In the USA isnt it innocent until proven guilty? I do have to agree with Alex that she was probably using her "helping " relationship with her client. Mee Wah in a post showed us what a responsible MORAL person would do . but being immoral or unethical isnt illegal, right? It is bad, but it isnt fraud. I think I am seeing this different because of my background, in the Caribbean there are different syncrenistic religions; Santeria, Palomayumbe, Voodun for examples all of these have there brujos or witchdoctors you can go to botanicas (magic shops ? not a good translation) and buy preprepared spells or contract spells. they all have a price. and it does go into the thousands and it depends on what you want to do. Santeria is "cleaner" in that the santeros dont usually practice what Wiccans would call black magic. In Palomayumbe and Voodun, they have a different view of the magical world. In other words you can ask them to kill someone, get your husband back at the expense of his current wife, you name it- all for a price. does it work? sometimes...alot of the time?I thnk so, and there are more effective brujos than others. the thing is with magic all around the world is you can only force so much to happen...its not like charmed (tv show). as far as affecting the karma of others ,well the different brujos certainly take on and pass on alot ....thats all for now..rambling on catti

Alex	02 Aug 2003
He, he, we got a bunch ot these in Brazil as well. The other side of the coin is that my ex- and I spent over 4,000 in his treatment for depression, over 2 years, besides what the insurance covered, for having him attempting suicide in the end. However, I can't really press charges against his doctors for selling us an illusion, I can't call them chalatans, or anything, because they practice stupid legal medicine. So, professionals from regulated professions can kill you as long as they are not off the mainstream, as long as they don't make a "mistake". On the other hand, if you practice something that is NOT regulated, just try to fail. Alex. [quote]Originally posted by catti [b] Quote: Originally posted by Trogon I think I am seeing this different because of my background, in the Caribbean there are different syncrenistic religions; Santeria, Palomayumbe, Voodun for examples all of these have there brujos or witchdoctors you can go to botanicas (magic shops ? not a good translation) and buy preprepared spells or contract spells. they all have a price. and it does go into the thousands and it depends on what you want to do. Santeria is "cleaner" in that the santeros dont usually practice what Wiccans would call black magic. In Palomayumbe and Voodun, they have a different view of the magical world. In other words you can ask them to kill someone, get your husband back at the expense of his current wife, you name it- all for a price. does it work? sometimes...alot of the time?I think so, and there are more effective brujos than others. the thing is with magic all around the world is you can only force so much to happen...its not like charmed (tv show). as far as affecting the karma of others ,well the different brujos certainly take on and pass on alot ....thats all for now..rambling on catti

catti	02 Aug 2003
alex, i was hoping you would see this do you feel you wasted your time , money? i went to couples therapy with the father of my son and after dollars and hours felt like nothing had happened but could i sue the therapist? i feel the answer is no... she did what she could and so did he ( we switched looking for an equilibrium) did not work never thought of going to court over money spent... magick exists it istrong but it doesnt happen just like that , not because your believe or because you put lots of money into it. Although either of the two help and both is great...why? because belief is willpower and money represents us here on earth....just money wont work but i am sure most of you wiccans out there have heard that you dont haggle over magic objects...why..money isnt evil it is just a tool...that is why i take money for a spell not often but i do, they buy the products necessary , i outline what i believe will work and there it is i sold a spell i hope i makeing some sense tonight... ps. caetano; que voz ...

Alex	03 Aug 2003
I wasted both. We saw a couple first, then a guy, that for couple's therapy. He had a private therapist, and a psychiatrist. Our couple's therapist, the guy, couldn't understand "why" I didn't wanna have sex with my husband, and tried to make me "confess" I had another lover. Ass@ole, one day I just told him go have sex with my husband himself, because I'd had it with both of them. We can't really blame these people for being innefective, after we get ourselves in stupid marriages, but just because they got state licenses and federal licenses and what have you. If my ex- and I had gone to a Candomble center trying to save our marriage, and ended up divorced, then there would be plenty of attorneys wanting to make a case. But against psycologists, or psychiatrists... oh well, who would speak up? Alex. Quote: Originally posted by catti alex, i was hoping you would see this do you feel you wasted your time , money? i went to couples therapy with the father of my son and after dollars and hours felt like nothing had happened but could i sue the therapist? i feel the answer is no... she did what she could and so did he ( we switched looking for an equilibrium) did not work never thought of going to court over money spent...

The Giving Readers a Bad Name thread was originally posted on 23 Jul 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.