invasion of privacy?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Jul 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Baby Owl	17 Jul 2003
Before posting this message, I read a couple of threads that have already appeared here on tarot ethics. They were helpful, but I wanted to ask a specific question about a specific issue, if that's okay. I have been reading tarot and oracle cards for a couple of years now. The other day, a friend said that if his girlfriend came to me for a reading, and I asked the cards what he (my friend) was thinking or feeling about the relationship - he would consider that the same as if I opened his mail or tapped his phone without his permission. This troubles me because this type of thing is such a common part of relationship spreads. There always seems to be a position or two for what the "other person" thinks, feels, etc. And I can see his point - it's as if I am "spying" into his head without his knowledge or permission! I agree with the posts I have read that this is a personal matter and that one should base his tarot ethics on his everyday-life ethics. I would just like to hear what others think about this specific issue. Thanks! Baby Owl

dolphinprincess	17 Jul 2003
This is an interesting question.. and a tough one. My thoughts - I think it isn't ethical to do a reading on anyone (person / thoughts) when it has nothing to do with the querent personally.. However, if the question and information directly affects the life of the querent, I don't think it is unethical to read for the person. .... just my opinion

Cerulean	17 Jul 2003
Baby Owl posted: ...a friend said that if his girlfriend came to me for a reading, and I asked the cards what he (my friend) was thinking or feeling about the relationship - he would consider that the same as if I opened his mail or tapped his phone without his permission. Mari replies: My take on this is different. I believe if his girlfriend came to you, her perceptions of her boyfriend's feelings will come through her own filter. Her perceptions and emotional reactions are hers and if you were friends of both, you would hear slightly different stories. If she comes alone, I believe that you would read her story and perceptions and all her past associations, which make for a different mix than his. My opinion only: If she is your friend only by way of a secondary association through him, his view is that you should support him first, respect his privacy, etc. So if you were in casual conversation with her, he would hope you would deal with her as a friend to him first. If you feel this is valid, then maybe you do not want to read for friends of friends. To me, the above changes if it turns out you are a reader who can 'see' whole scenarios without the filter of emotional connections. Perhaps in a reading with someone, you can be that and your friend is afraid of your uncanny accuracy. So forgive my opinion above if my ideas did not deal with your question at all.

lunalafey	17 Jul 2003
what would be the difference between a reading and a heart to heart between friends? It sounds to me like HE has something to hide. He is defensive prior to any exchange of info, I would be very suspicious. If all is right why does he worry about his 'privacy'? If he is proud & honorable he should no care. Another way to approach this is just like doctors......IT'S ALL private between the paitent (querant) & the doctor (reader) A doctor does not tell others when one has an office visit or what came from that visit. If your friend wants a reading, that is her business, if she goes to you, that is your business. If she goes to someone else, then he, who want to stay private, has no choice. If I was in your shoes & he came to me with such a statement, it would fuel my desire to know what his 'trip' is, why does he act so. ....hey cards!.....'what does he have to hide? why so defensive?' but that's just me and my appitite for observing human nature

Kiama	17 Jul 2003
Lunalafey said what I am feeling exactly... To add to this, I think that alot of the time querent's ask such things in a Tarot reading because they find it so difficult/impossible to ask it in real life. For instance, they may find it more difficult/impossible to ask their partner 'How do you truly feel about this relationship?' than to ask a Tarot reader. On a more sinister side of thise, even if they did ask such a question in real life, instead of in a Tarot reading, it is possible that the partner would lie about their feelings. In this way, I often view the Tarot reading as simply another method of finding out how a person is feeling, just as I would if I simply sat down and thought long and hard about that person... For instance, if I were to sit down and think about my partner's actions, etc, and draw from them a conclusion as to what I think his feelings are about the relationship, I see it as exactly the same as when I ask the cards 'how does my partner feel about the relationship?' If this is an invasion of privacy, then so must thinking about the person's feelings be. Another take on this is that it may not matter how one gets to an understanding of the partner's feelings, as long as the effects of this understanding are good... As an example: If the man's partner came to me, and asked for a reading involving a position that showed what her partner was feeling, and she then used that knowledge to improve her relationship with her partner, surely that is only a good thing? Surely the way it happened shouldn't matter, since nobody was harmed in the reading, and good came of it. I'm not necessarily saying that the ends justify the means, because that is quite a dangerous claim to make. When it comes to things such as questions of life and death, it is entirely different, but when it comes to Tarot reading, I think in some situations 'ends justifying the means' can be applied... This is all just a personal take on the matter, and a couple of points I've only really thought about just now. Hope it helps! Kiama

Page	17 Jul 2003
Originally posted by dolphinprincess This is an interesting question.. and a tough one. My thoughts - I think it isn't ethical to do a reading on anyone (person / thoughts) when it has nothing to do with the querent personally.. However, if the question and information directly affects the life of the querent, I don't think it is unethical to read for the person. .... just my opinion I do agree with the above but it's very hard to pick up such info from the tarot, unless the person / thoughts come up very strongly. It's very easy to put your own mind into the whole thing and make a judgement instead of the what the cards/spirit say. Sometimes I'm asked how does such and such feel about me and what will they do. I always say that I'm doing a reading for YOU but such and such person might come up if they directly effect your life. You can never tell what someone else is thinking.

Baby Owl	17 Jul 2003
Thanks for the replies -- I should clarify that my friend was not speaking just about his own situation, but was speaking in general...In other words, he was saying he felt it would not be right for me to ask the cards about ANY person's thoughts unless that person invited me to, that such action would be tantamount to reading that person's mail or tapping his phone. He just phrased it as a personal example. Sorry for not making this clear. Baby Owl

bec	17 Jul 2003
Given the fact that he personally have shared his opinion and feels about the issue I do think not only as a tarot reader but as a person in general you are obliged to follow his wishes of not intruding in his private affairs. We did indeed have this discussion before and it is still a very hard question to answer. Do we pry in others life when reading for someone that didn't ask for it. In my opinion "yes we do" and how I feel about it is "we should never read a third person in matter of what they feel and think" What I personally do in relationship readings is giving the person being read guidance in how to make the best of it. The situation between them and how the querent can tackle that. What the other part of the relation thinks and how they feel should IMO not be in the cards to begin with. And IMO when a person asks "how does he feel?" then the answer should always be "ask him!" So what it's worth you now have my opinion :)

Baby Owl	17 Jul 2003
Thank you, Bec. That does get at what really concerned my friend (and now concerns me). I know there a lots and lots of folks who do use spreads that ask for the thoughts and feelings of a person other than the one who is asking for the reading. Do you have an analogy or example that explains why you feel it's really okay to do it? (Sorry to belabor this...It's affecting all my readings.) Baby Owl

MeeWah	17 Jul 2003
Baby Owl: I have not yet read all of the replies but shall after I finish posting. My "allegiance" is to the client, & to no one else. I choose to not do second-party readings, or a direct inquiry targetted at someone other than the consenting client because whilst my intent is clear to me, someone else's may not be; also due to my view of privacy issues. The one over-ride is that *anything that appears or speaks to me through the cards within the context of a reading that is applicable to the query is generally conveyed to the client*in the most discerning manner possible. That is, if a client wants to know what s/he is looking at in a particular relationship, 'tis likely the other party or the individual of interest will be represented in the throw in some way. I read the representative energy; describe what I see. There have been occasions where I warned a client about a person based on what I see. That is part of the service; the Tarotwork. I have read for both parties in a relationship separately without violating the confidentiality of either. I also read for a woman who basically wanted to know what was happening with her live-in boyfriend. She did not identify or describe him, but I saw him in a particular setting & described it. She later discovered I was right. A couple of weeks later, I recognized him when he came to me for a reading also. He looked just like the man I saw in the woman's reading. In all of those cases, the clients already understand I will not talk about them to anyone else involved. In addition, I recommend that the query be along the lines of "What am I looking at in this relationship". That usually covers all the necessary bases.

Baby Owl	17 Jul 2003
MeeWah, Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. This has helped me a great deal. Baby Owl

punkangelgcm437	17 Jul 2003
I just skimmed the posts...so if I repeat anything I'm sorry. Babyowl: Sounds like your friend has something himself to hide...or maybe he's insecure and doesnt want his girlfriend to know cuz she thinks everything is okay. But I do see your dillema. Almost all (if not all) spreads I know of that concern relationships do have a "Person B's feelings, needs, wants, ect" type positions. Hard to find one without those positions actually. Maybe, to keep everything from getting to that issue, tell her straight-up you dont wanna do a relationship reading. If she asks why...say you just dont feel like it or make up a little white lie (I dont promote lying people...im just sayin if you gotta get out of it...a lil white lie cant hurt too bad. Right? Or am I just messin around with Karma too much?). But hopefully...maybe this can open lines of communication up between the two...cuz it sounds they could use it. ~Sorry 4 any repeats~

Baby Owl	17 Jul 2003
Thanks, punkangel! You make some good points. Baby Owl

bec	18 Jul 2003
Actually Meewha already answered the question about when it is ok to read other persons than the querent, she does have a way with the words I can only long for :) I will try explain further what I meant in my first post. A girl comes to me asking of her relationship with a guy, she have been living with him for 2 years. They were having a real bad time, no matter what the other did (in their own opinion only in trying ot make it better) it got even worse. I have only the girls version of the matter. I did a heart of matter for them - telling what I saw. Her being insecure of his love due to the fact of numerous bad relations some with physical abuse. Her insecurity was stated in nagging. What I could tell from his side of the matter, was that he indeed did love her and he was trying to reach both moon, stars and sun for her - he was a perfectionist that wanted everything to be perfect for his loved one. Her nagging only made him even more hardworking to reach perfection. Him working hard at every little petite material for hours made her long for conversation and caresses, which ofcourse he didn't have time for when working; which in the end only caused for more nagging. See the circle? She was asking the question of how he felt about her - and the answer the cards gave was actually that she would have to work with her own insecurity inorder to be able to hear the answer truthfully. They are still together today and are better in detecting this circle before it gets a habbit - and I think that is the key to most relations - detecting the bad circle before it grows on you.

Astra	18 Jul 2003
I come from a very different perspective on all of this. It has always seemed to me that the concept of "privacy" can only be real if you think you are living in a non-psychic world. When you are reading, you are looking out at a universe where there are no real walls, no barriers. Thoughts are private only if nobody cares to hunt for them. I understand that this concept can upset a lot of people. One of the ways we learn is to pick up what other people have thought and done about a problem - when we do this, we're not particularly interested in who the person is or the problems that they might have, but in finding information that will help us solve our own problems. I think that we normally do this so automatically that we don't even notice that some of what we "know" isn't anything we ever "learned". I don't think there can be an ethical constraint on this area. We learn what we need to, and what we want to, as easily as having the needs or desires. (Well, not quite that easily, but effectively so.) What we do with what we learn, however, is another matter, and has to be addressed on a case by case basis.

Marion	18 Jul 2003
Hi Baby Owl, I haven't read the other posts yet, so forgive me if I repeat. IMHO you are reading FOR the querent. How the relationship affects her/him personally. You are not reading the other person's mind. You are reading the impact that the other person will have on your querent. It is not 'opening mail'. The other issue is how much subliminal information that just floats around the universe. Only people trained in shielding can stop it from getting out. Your querent likely already knows a lot, you are just helping her/him formalize it, process it, so to speak.

Baby Owl	18 Jul 2003
Wow - - this is wonderful. I really appreciate the time you all have taken to help me with this! Baby Owl

KelarSkye	18 Jul 2003
This is interesting for me because I do not have many issues with my own privacy, and people with large privacy issues typically get on my nerves. So my "ethics" in privacy may be a bit different than others because I think requiring too much privacy is bad for society in general. But that is another social issue all together :-) I agree completely with MeeWah's post. That is how I read third party. If the person is involved in the situation my querrant brings me, I will read what I need to answer most effectively. If this tells the querrant that boyfriend z is hiding something, and friend x is feeling left out even though she appears fine, then I will. I guess I see privacy as use of the information. As some others have posted here, the issue of privacy is fairly moot if you are open to a more psychic world. You can't control many things in that instance. I guess what I would say the ethical situation here isn't that you do or do not know certain things about people, but more how you use the information you have. The ethics would be how it is shared and who it is shared with, not the actual knowledge. I also don't really have much of a problem with someone reading my mail as long as they are considerate to use or not use the information they gain accordingly. Weird, I know...but it saves some worrying if you don't care what people know or don't know about you! Kelar

catti	20 Jul 2003
[quote]Originally posted by lunalafey [b] Another way to approach this is just like doctors......IT'S ALL private between the paitent (querant) & the doctor (reader) A doctor does not tell others when one has an office visit or what came from that visit. If your friend wants a reading, that is her business, if she goes to you, that is your business. Considering that most readings for people are private matters and occasionally VERY private info comes out , I have always told people that whatever we talk about is just between us. And if people ask me , what cards came up in fulana's spread i always remind them that the same way im not going to talk about what happened when we were "talking tarot" I'm not saying what happened with so and so's cards. This reminds me of a situation where i used to work. I gave all the ladies in the office a reading. and they were all giddy excited andthen the tarot readings started in one reading it came out that someone was having an affair....and another was a kind of sobering reading about how work was probably not going to get better (no promotions) and another was about how the lady might want to mind her own business because her relatins were strained. anyway the most gossipy started to ask everyone what happend when i brought up the ethics thing...and seeeing as her reading had been about bad relations at work (!) she got quiet. i still do reading for people there. they like the confesstional/therapy type atmosphere i think

bec	20 Jul 2003
Reading Catti's post, I now see two sides of the matter privacy. One is when you are doing a reading for person a) concerning or including person b) Second is when you tell others of another reading done. OFCOURSE no tarot reader will tell what cards this and that got and what they meant !!! I lack words for such an action, I for one would never have a reading from him/her. Imagine the first thing your reader would talk about is his/hers previous reading - well I don't know about you guys, but I would make my excuses and leave without the reading. Maybe I am being a prone (SP?) here? dunno and dun care...

MeeWah	20 Jul 2003
I see the level of confidentiality between reader & client is the same as that of any professional relationship albeit 'tis known that is not always practiced by either. As readers, we contribute to our validity by that which we choose to observe & uphold. By our actions will others know us.

Kurai Yuko	20 Jul 2003
My opinion is that a Tarot reading is something like going to a psychologist: it`s 100% private. If your friend goes to you for a reading, it's something between you and her ONLY. Even if her boyfriend is somewhat involved with the question (a relashionship spread), you cannot tell him how was the reading. A psychologist will never tell anyone what his patients tell him, right? A person decides to go to a Tarot reader at her own risk and responsability. It's not the reader's fault is the querant decides to tell to another person about the reading (and is the 'another' thinks it's 'invasion of privacy'). You must keep your word, and whatever you 'saw' on the reading, to yourself. What the querant will do...well, it's beyond the Tarot reader: it's the unfamous freewill. I know i sounded a bit mean, i'm sorry (i did not mean to offend)but that's what i think. It's not your fault that she came to you, nor it's her boyfriend business ;) Take care! ~Yuko

lunalafey	20 Jul 2003
one can look at it this way as well. what is the difference between the cards 'talking' and one's own internal dialouge? or even a chat with mom on the issue? Some where along the way some-one is going to come-up with some sort of assumption (be it real or not) of why a person is doing what they doing, etc. So, I still feel the guy has something to hide. If he meant it to be in general/overall, he would have used such termonology, but the fact that he did 'describe' it from a personal standpoint, that says alot. People often speak of thier true feelings in ways they don't recognise.

MeeWah	20 Jul 2003
The boyfriend may have something to hide; however, there may be aspects to the relationship that are an issue. Relationship dynamics can be complex. He may be concerned about others interfering or unduly influencing the relationship. If that is so, it speaks of him as ultimately, what his girlfriend does is really none of his business. A viable relationship permits both parties the individual autonomy & the freedom to make their own decisions.

bec	21 Jul 2003
BabyOwl:The other day, a friend said that if his girlfriend came to me for a reading, and I asked the cards what he (my friend) was thinking or feeling about the relationship - he would consider that the same as if I opened his mail or tapped his phone without his permission.< I want to get back to what was actually written to begin with in this thread. We can go on and on in various directions of how privacy is or is not violated by tarot. Baby Owl have a friend, he tells her that he will have no such thing as him being read - he must have a hunch that his girlfriend would ask for such. Now Baby Owl calls him "a friend", not a third party querent - so there are two things to consider on this specific matter. A) as a friend she should listen to him and treat him as a friend. B) It does not matter what he have to hide, aca something he wont tell his girlfriend or if he is just "a man of privacy". What I get from Baby Owls first post is actually that IF agreeing to do such a reading she could actually end up in the middle of a situation she might not want to end up in. I think I would ask for her to find another reader, that had nothing to do with none of them privately. To me it seems Baby Owl is bound to have her butt jamed no matter how she would handle such a reading because no matter what is said and read the risk of suspection and imaginaiton COULD get the worse of it compromising her friendship to the very guy who have actually asked her not to do a reading concerning him. I try to reply to this specific situation, as pry and violation of privacy is such a broad issue to handle.

anjocoxo	21 Jul 2003
I believe that, as it has been said before, what we say to querents about 3rd parties is nothing unfamiliar to them. It's usually things that the querent already know, even if they are too blind/stubborn/angry to see... in the end of the day they look at you and think "yeah, right, that's exactly how s/he is, I have never thought about looking at it from that perspective". The same thing happens with the querents themselves: most of the time (if not all the time) we are telling them things they already know, they just don't bother to think about it... because it's very deep. However, no matter how deep it is, IT'S THERE, and they know it. With partners, they know their partners better than we do, for sure, so probably we are not telling anything new, we are just bringing light to some aspects of the partner that the querent is not seeing, not because of ignorance, but because they don't want to see. So, how is it a invasion of privacy, if both partners know each other? Just my two cents Anjo

Baby Owl	21 Jul 2003
My friend was not concerned so much about confidentiality as with the idea of someone (a tarot reader) looking into his head (or anyone's head) without permission. I had always thought of a "third party card" (a card laid for the specific purpose of asking what a third party thinks or feels) as simply an additional aid to help the querent examine the situation. My friend's comment made me stop and consider a bigger picture. I do agree with those who have said the cards tend to pick up on things the querent already knows or senses, in which case I suppose the tarotist is reading the querent's mind rather than the third party's. I am still mulling all this over in MY mind! Baby Owl

Thoth1884	24 Jul 2003
If he thinks its an invasion of privacy, and violating ethics and what not... If she comes to you for a reading, and asks that question, what is he thinking and all of that.... I'd change the question around, and just do a spread about their relationship in general, some specific things will come up in just the general reading, and might help them out a little bit.. without violating your friends privacy and trust in you Just my opinion though ~Danny

carrielynnsim	29 Jul 2003
I'm trying to understand the "real" question you are asking here. Is your "friend" saying he doesn't want you doing a reading regarding him period. Or just to his girlfriend? Because if he doesn't want you doing a reading with him in it at all because you would be invading his privacy, how could you promise such a thing? I know my friends, family, etc. come up in my readings for myself - I don't feel like I'm invading anyones privacy. So I'm certain this "friend" would come up in your readings at some point. Did you do a reading pondering this question? I'm curious about the cards that came up if you did. Carrie

LaLa	29 Jul 2003
Sorry for dragging this on but I do find it interesting.. I assume Baby Owl's original query was about the ethics of readings as relates to 3rd parties based on the fact that BO's friend felt it a violation I'm of the opinion that the cards reflect what is already available to the querent and as such don't violate 3rd party privacy I agree with the Wiccan belief that you have no right to meddle in others affairs without their consent (so it's inappropriate to do readings about 3rd persons directly but relationship spreads within the bounds of a personal query are ok) It reminded me of an argument with my spouse that split us up for 18 months - he accused me of reading in order to manipulate others - that I was on some sort of power trip. I explained my above mentioned beliefs and asked him to leave until he was prepared to apologise - he was very stubborn and took a long time to reflect and realise my intentions were not as he had assumed I see my role as reader as a conduit to information the querant has access to already but either cannot or will not see it for what it is - I'm just the one that holds up the mirror

Baby Owl	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by carrielynnsim I'm trying to understand the "real" question you are asking here. Is your "friend" saying he doesn't want you doing a reading regarding him period. Or just to his girlfriend? Because if he doesn't want you doing a reading with him in it at all because you would be invading his privacy, how could you promise such a thing? I know my friends, family, etc. come up in my readings for myself - I don't feel like I'm invading anyones privacy. So I'm certain this "friend" would come up in your readings at some point. Did you do a reading pondering this question? I'm curious about the cards that came up if you did. Carrie Although my friend gave himself as an example, I realized that this was a larger issue. He found it disturbing that any tarot reader would ask the cards "How does so-and-so feel?" when "so-and-so" is NOT the one asking for the reading. This caused me to begin wondering if it was okay or not (ethically?) to ask the cards about the feelings or thoughts of someone other than the questioner who has come to me for the reading. I will ask the cards what I need to know about this issue and post the results. Thanks for the suggestion. Baby Owl

Baby Owl	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by LaLa I assume Baby Owl's original query was about the ethics of readings as relates to 3rd parties based on the fact that BO's friend felt it a violation. Yes, that's it exactly. Quote: I'm of the opinion that the cards reflect what is already available to the querent and as such don't violate 3rd party privacy....I see my role as reader as a conduit to information the querant has access to already but either cannot or will not see it for what it is - I'm just the one that holds up the mirror. Thanks for weighing in on this, LaLa. You expressed your view very clearly and it is helpful. Baby Owl

Baby Owl	29 Jul 2003
I have posted a reading regarding this issue HERE. Baby Owl

MeeWah	30 Jul 2003
I tend to agree with LaLa. The information one accesses as a reader is already available; just needs a means of accessing same, such as via a reader or some other detached party. A relationship reading can indicate relationship dynamics which may include the intentions of those involved. Such a reading can be very revealing. Have also found a general reading to be capable of including such information as well as information on other areas.

raeanne	30 Jul 2003
Hi all, About doing a reading about a third party - what would you do if Tarot wasn’t involved. What if your friend had come to you for advice about a boy she liked and you had never heard of Tarot? What would you do? Would you give advice based on the boy’s actions, words, body language, or any other subtle hints? Would you try to “read” him instead of reading the cards? Most people do this everyday! We make judgment calls and assess situations with the tools we have at our disposal. Tarot is just one more avenue that some people have taken the time to learn. If it gives someone information and insight into a situation so they are better able to handle the choices live gives, then all the better. However, in defense of the boy, I can understand his concern. I don’t necessarily think he has anything to hide. I don’t like the companies that go prying into my personal life to get information so they can sell me stuff. It does feel like an invasion of privacy but, it is just a fact of life.

bec	30 Jul 2003
raeanne, great guestion!! and the answer is "yes we do". but then answer this: if a girl comes asks you about her relation to a buy who just so happens to be your friend ..... would you then do the same???

Alex	30 Jul 2003
I have clicked twice so this one goes blank.

Alex	30 Jul 2003
This line of reasoning is simplistic and rather naive. I would take the time to argue with this fellow that it is NOT the same, rather than constraining the scope of my readings. Obviously, I won't read for a third party, because it is unethical to put in the mind and mouth of an absent person, thoughts and words. But the issue of invading one's privacy by reading cards and the issue of having an ethical conduct when it comes to someone who's not seeking for advice are different things, aren't they? If reading cards were the same as opening one's mail, CIA would had used it to see what S.H. was planning to do next, rather than making use of counterfit documents to prove the unprovable. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Baby Owl I have been reading tarot and oracle cards for a couple of years now. The other day, a friend said that if his girlfriend came to me for a reading, and I asked the cards what he (my friend) was thinking or feeling about the relationship - he would consider that the same as if I opened his mail or tapped his phone without his permission.

The invasion of privacy? thread was originally posted on 17 Jul 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.