Tarot and Heraldry

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Jul 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Macavity	27 Jul 2003
Not that I want to seduce anyone away from Tarot, but it occurs to me that a lot of threads discuss symbolism. This reminds me that, in my youth :|, I developed quite a passion for Heraldry. If you haven't thought much about this before, try looking at: http://www.heraldryunlimited.com/guide/home_page.htm A random choice, but just one example of something that might become of interest to you too... You may still not be able to work out WHY e.g. lions are dancing, but you will know what the name of their dance is! :laugh: Macavity P.S. This wasn't supposed to go in this category at all? Oooops! :D Moddies: Feel free to move it if you wish... maybe to "Talking Tarot"?

Ross G Caldwell	27 Jul 2003
Thanks for posting on this subject - the link is great! I don't know a great deal about heraldry, although I have often wished to devote some time to learning its principles and vocabulary. I look forward to hearing your comments and others. What a coincidence for tarot that a branch of the Visconti family's coat-of-arms is on the front page :-) The coiled snake, devouring (or disgorging, depending on how you interpret it) a person. The same snake is part of the arms of the city of Milan, and you can see it everywhere on Alfa Romeo cars. The Visconti and Sforza families are sometimes cited as being "excessive" users of heraldry. The earliest known tarot card painters - Jacomo Sagramoro and Gerardo da Vicenza - also painted plenty of heraldic devices for their patrons - there is plenty of historical link between the two subjects. In the eighteenth century, heraldry was taught to youngsters in noble schools, often using a deck of cards specially designed to teach the principles (which get complicated fairly quickly when several generations etc. is involved). Such a deck was designed by the Abbé Menestrier in the 1680s or so. (Menestrier is, incidentally, the fellow who found the account about Jacquemin Gringonneur painting 3 packs of cards for King Charles VI in 1392 - the account has since been lost). Ross

jmd	29 Jul 2003
Serendipitous, this thread... it was only just last week I went to an open talk given by a Freemason and Heraldry enthusiast on the subject, and have also shared a minor interest in the subject, only to realise my relative lack of historical knowledge in the area. Though the symbolism may become quite complex after a number of generations, this only occurs if the intermarriages also intermingle their heraldic emblems rather than adopt ones of their own. It also seems that the various ways in which heraldry has developed in various countries, though sharing many similarities, also have important differences. What attracted me to heraldry in the first instance was a passing comment made in an analysis of Cinderella I read about 20 years ago, in which mention was made that the 'vert' of her slipper was heraldic 'vert' (ie, green, not glass) which emblematically stood for deer leather... Reconnecting this to Tarot, I have at times wondered how the colours used would have been understood by someone immersed in heraldry - for there certain 'moral' qualities may also have been perceived, even if not intended by the artist... or indeed even intended if s/he had heraldic or similar interests!

firemaiden	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd What attracted me to heraldry in the first instance was a passing comment made in an analysis of Cinderella I read about 20 years ago, in which mention was made that the 'vert' of her slipper was heraldic 'vert' (ie, green, not glass) which emblematically stood for deer leather... hmmm, Jean-Michel, almost. The word in the Cinderella story which is a homonym of "glass" (verre) is actually " vair" - not vert. "Vair" is a kind of fur (leather) with white and grey patches. In heraldy it is a pattern of white and blue alternating points. (according to my Larrousse) (As a further aside, this is one of the things one remembers, from French, because it contributes to probably the longest list of homonyms in the language: vert (green), vers (towards), vers (earthworm), vers (verse), verre (glass), and vair.) :D :D :D

divinerguy	29 Jul 2003
The descriptions of coats of arms are really cool. Here's an example, Azure, a Bend sinister Vert between a bow proper in bend sinister, chief and a hunter's cap brown plumed argent, in base.

Ross G Caldwell	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden "Vair" is a kind of fur (leather) with white and grey patches. In heraldy it is a pattern of white and blue alternating points. (according to my Larrousse) :D :D :D Firemaiden - Thanks for the discussion of "vair". Armed with that information, I found a lovely little concise page of French heraldic terms, which shows what "vair" looks like in blason - just like your Larousse said - http://www.chez.com/verstraeten/lexique.htm Fourrure constituée de clochettes d'azur et d'argent posées tête-bêche. "A field consisting of little bells of blue and silver set head to tail". It adds the etymology - Vient du latin varius signifiant "bigarré, tacheté". Au moyen-age c'est le nom de l'écureuil petit-gris dont la fourrure du dos est bleuâtre et celle du ventre blanche. "From the latin "varius" meaning "motley/multicoloured, speckled". In the middle ages it was the name of the small grey squirrel, whose pelt was bluish on the back and white on the belly." Ross

Macavity	29 Jul 2003
Yes, in reply to JMD's notion that the Marseille probably retains hints of Heraldry etc., It's certainly worthy of investigation - It has a lot of that flavour about it! One thing that prompted ME to this topic was the small patch of "fur" between the pans of Justice's scales. I had thought it to be "Vair", but, as it happens, it turns out to more closely resemble the conventional depiction of (H)ermine. But I suspect the modern Camoin edition might not be the best place to look... :D On a personal note, in the Heralds: "Visitation of Shropshire taken in the year 1623 by Robert Tresswell, Somerset Herald, and Augustine Vincent, Rouge Croix, Pursuivant of Arms, Marshalles and Deputies to William Camden, Clarenceux King of Arms", my own Great great great great great great great great great great Grandfather was declared thus: John Roberte de Rorrington - No Gent.[leman] Having, along with 26 others, been found "disclaimed arms" in 1623. Simply, he had been found guilty of using a coat of arms to which he was not entitled! Proving that social climbing is not merely a 21st century phenomenon? ;) Macavity (Azure, a Cat sable, sejant, charged with a Crescent Or.) P.S. Fortunately about the only thing they could do to you (even then) in England was to tell you NOT to do it again! But, to this day, in some countries (like Scotland) you have to be a LOT more careful in the doing of such things... })

The Tarot and Heraldry thread was originally posted on 27 Jul 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.