The Law in the States, and Psychics.
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Jul 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| HudsonGray |
19 Jul 2003 |
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It doesn't say if that $357 fee is renewed yearly or a one time thing, and it still won't guarantee that someone won't be ripped off, regardless.
What about the 'non-professional' who doesn't have a sign or place of business? Do they get socked with this too? Or the person who only does a reading a month for a few interested clients rather than as a business? Does the fee cover a business, an individual or the entire family if they all read?
It leaves a lot unsaid.
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| Blue Override |
19 Jul 2003 |
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I think it's absurd that instead of a religious freedom issue, they're wanting to make it a racial/ethnic issue. God forbid any right-thinking white people believe in that hoo-doo business.
:rolleyes:
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| zorya |
19 Jul 2003 |
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fingerprinting????
FINGERPRINTING???
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| bunnyhop |
19 Jul 2003 |
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when i read the articles, i felt sorry for those who lost their life-savings to phony psychics and readers...a very good friend of mine was tricked that way (i read for her now -- no charge), but i don't think laws are necessary...just "consumers" who should learn how to make informed decisions...
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| Rhiannon |
20 Jul 2003 |
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I have to agree with zorya....
FINGERPRINTING????? :confused:
Why, so they can dust the cards and make sure you actually did the reading?
R :)
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| punkangelgcm437 |
20 Jul 2003 |
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FINGERPRINTING?!?! Goodness.
What a sad world it can be out there...having to get a license to do a hobby or to have a culture. Who are they gonna target next...astrologers?
But I have to agree with bunnyhop...be a smart consumer or client or whatever word u prefer to use. If someone loses that much money, it sucks and I feel sorry for them, but they also should know better. Laws seem drastic...when the consumers shouldnt just ask anybody...and most real readers will give a free sample reading if they think it'll help business (I would..maybe it's just me).
But Blue also has a point...its not an ethnic issue as much as a religion/freedom of speech/expression issue. People should be able to read cards...and I'm sure a good percentage of tarot card readers aren't phony. Wouldnt you be able to tell?? Im pretty sure I could. Why cant people just let people do what they want as long as it aint hurtin nobody?? I mean...dont yall feel the same way?? Why is there such a stigma against tarot cards and that its 'from the devil' or whatever?? Are people so scared to even try and learn about it?
I prolly talked to much and brought more questions than anwsers....sorry yall.
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| MeeWah |
20 Jul 2003 |
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The "law" smacks of machinations by the powersthatbe to effect their own agendas. Such a law provides for killing two birds or more with one stone. It not only discourages readers but has the potential to stop them from practicing their trade. Generates revenue under the guise of "consumer protection".
It seems certain that such a fee would be imposed annually. There will be "random" checks & those found not to have a license will face penalties such as a fine &/or jail time. 'Tis also likely the average "fortune-teller" does not have the income to meet the license fee.
Fingerprinting is ominous: another thinly veiled Big Brother ploy as is the licensing. I know of few professions that require finger-printing. Most of them are related to law enforcement agencies & certain work arenas such as banking.
It sounds like an issue that needs a concerted effort to fight as it targets a particular segment of society.
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| Major Tom |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Originally posted by MeeWah
Fingerprinting is ominous: another thinly veiled Big Brother ploy as is the licensing. I know of few professions that require finger-printing. Most of them are related to law enforcement agencies & certain work arenas such as banking.
It sounds like an issue that needs a concerted effort to fight as it targets a particular segment of society.
I was fingerprinted before I was allowed to work as a Teacher's aide and playground supervisor. Anyone working with the vunerable, i.e. children, older people, people with mental health difficulties, etc., gets fingerprinted and has a background check before they begin work. People working for local, state or national government also get fingerprinted. Fingerprinting is actually pretty wide-spread as a condition of employment for a variety of professions.
The business license is more the issue really.
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| fairyhedgehog |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Originally posted by Major Tom
I was fingerprinted before I was allowed to work as a Teacher's aide and playground supervisor.
Where was that, Major Tom? I thought you were in the UK - and although I have had to have background checks to work with children I have never been finger-printed.
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| Major Tom |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Originally posted by fairyhedgehog
Where was that, Major Tom?
It was nearly 30 years ago in California.
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| MeeWah |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Major Tom: I apologize for not being clear--I was referring to the law as being an issue. I am leery of the many laws passed under the guise of consumer protection as the one cited. Locally, there is a very old law that makes fortune-telling illegal. Whilst I understand the concerns for the unsuspecting consumer, there is also the sense of a gradual erosion of personal freedom.
& thanks for the clarification regarding fingerprinting. I have been fingerprinted for a couple of jobs. I forgot about the government jobs, but have not heard of fingerprinting being a requirement for those other positons. There have been cases in the U.S. where it was found individuals with police records have gotten employment in sensitive positions such as daycare, nursing homes & at airports. One is left to conjecture that no background checks were done on prospective employees.
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| Moongold |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Fingerprinting is completely uncalled for. Do other tradespeople or buskers have to be fingerpinted also?
And the cost of licences seems exorbitant.
In Melbourne, Australia you can still read Tarot in the streets at no cost quite often but local government usually does make a charge and require a permit for people doing ANYTHING like setting up a table in the street for any purpose.
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| Marion |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Charging that much for a license seems like a lot. A lot of tarot reading is done pretty casually and not consistently.
Not only that, somehow it seems like another way to allow people to sue. Sue a tarot reader because the answer didn't come out right?
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| Silverlotus |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Wow. I feel, sometimes, that you Americans are getting a lot of new, crazy law lately.
In Canada, our criminal code says:
"365. [323] Everyone who fraudulently(a) pretends to exercise or to use any kind of witchcraft, sorcery, enchantment or conjuration (b) undertakes, for a consideration, to tell fortunes, or (c) pretends from his skill in knowledge of an occult or crafty science to discover where or in what manner anything is supposed to have been stolen or lost may be found, is guilty of an offense punishable on summary conviction."
So, if you go to the local fortuneteller, it is always "for entertainment purposes only." And most shops that are pulling a scam get closed up pretty quickly, or at least that has been my experiences in the couple of cities I have lived in.
I think, though, if you run a shop, you need to be registered to collect GST and a few other things. We have miles of red tape here. :)
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| Ruby Red Slippers |
20 Jul 2003 |
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And then there are the Suit-Happy people.......
What will happen when a greedy plantiff attorney seeks to sue??
What will it be liabilty, punitive damages, criminal intent. :eek:
Where will the objectivity be then?
I am ALWAYS leary of people in favor of "ligitimizing" themselves. To prove what to whom?
Ruby Red Slippers
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| Umbrae |
20 Jul 2003 |
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Originally posted by bunnyhop
when i read the articles, i felt sorry for those who lost their life-savings to phony psychics and readers..."consumers" who should learn how to make informed decisions...
We have the crooks in all professions, Lawyers and Stockbrokers have bilked billions from the public, as have Doctors, and…the Church…
Originally posted by Silverlotus
In Canada, our criminal code says:
"365. [323] Everyone who fraudulently(a) pretends to exercise or to use any kind of witchcraft, sorcery, enchantment or conjuration (b) undertakes, for a consideration, to tell fortunes, or (c) pretends from his skill in knowledge of an occult or crafty science to discover where or in what manner anything is supposed to have been stolen or lost may be found, is guilty of an offense punishable on summary conviction." Emphasis Added
Folks…start studying…next will be the test. Are you a genuine card reader? Or are you just pretend.
Remember what you think is not relevant, the government will design and administer the test.
Or, if you have your church credentials in order, they cannot touch you…
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| lunalafey |
20 Jul 2003 |
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how sad, how sick.....It's sick that there are those that create a problem that requiers a solution & it's sad that a solution can't be thought out better by a city that is so open-minded. I grew up just a little ways from SF and as far back as I can remember, there's 'fortune-teller' on the main street. Well established business & I bet she had to have a business lic. As for the price of the business licence, it's cost is normal. To open up a little gift shop in Ca. costs about $400.oo.
There are some loopholes though. It you have an office/shop, then there is that big expence, but for a 'mobile' business the cost is about 60% less.
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| HudsonGray |
20 Jul 2003 |
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I wonder if they need a mobile sellers permit then--if you don't have a store but provide a good or service, you need a mobile one here in WI. It costs $10 a year. In PA it's a one time charge of $15. I do one event in PA & have to show the permit when I arrive at the event.
Licensing a type of service means more than just taking down a name and address usually--I wonder what sort of tests they'd do?
Oh, I've never been fingerprinted for a job, but WAS put through a lie detector for a waitress job at TGI Fridays (yes, lie detector), which I thought was ridiculous. It cost the restaurant $50 per test & they stopped it about 18 months later. Guess they had a huge theft problem (the expensive steaks, etc.) at the time. The questions were legit, things like 'have you ever stolen more than $50 worth from an employer, or employee, have you come to work drunk', things like that. But my heart was racing so fast just from the stupid test that the guy couldn't get any reading off me that could tell him anything. They still hired me, regardless. I was there about 5 years. It's been 14 years since I left there, so this was back in the 1980's.
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| punkangelgcm437 |
20 Jul 2003 |
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*I typed on just about everything...and it's not in order either. Sorry yall but I guess I'm worked up over it.*
lunalafey-- I see your point as $400 not being that much...but that's also for a gift store selling many products (I assume) and getting more business. I wouldnt think as many people make a living off of is at people who do it more as a hobby or for extra money on saturdays or something. Either way, the license would take so much money away it'd be almost pointless. Get ready for alil math yall.
Say you did 8 readings a day, at $5 a reading $40 a day. $40 x 45 = $1800. $350 is almost one-fifth of your business. 20% to have the proper papers just to do a hobby. Thats just insane.
It is sick that scam artists have to use an age-old tradition in some cultures to try & get money. Now, instead of scam artists getting money; the government has found yet another way to get money (since our national government is in the red...AGAIN. I'm not gonna go into my political views...but 4 years ago we had a surplus.). Most states are in the red too (I know Indiana is...and since SF is in Cali...more likely than not they're in the red too). Is this a government ploy to get a few extra bucks?? Are they really even concerned about the people who got ripped off...or do they see it as a way to get money??
But see...the thing about sueing is...people dont understand what the future to us means. The future can be changed...and the future is only only shown at where you were going at the moment. If you did something to change it...then you're definitly gonna change your outcome. I'm sure most of us tell our clients, (friends, customers, whatever you like to call them), that the outcome isn't set in stone. I know I do...especially when it shows something bad. Then I tell them to think of ways to make it better and to change what will happen.
Ruby--yes...trying to prove that you're "ligit" always seems to make me weary of them too. If you truely are genuine...you dont need to add how "ligit" you are to your name. That's why I never called Ms. Cleo from TV (even tho she did inspire me to get my tarot deck...I cant talk too much smack about her cuz without her I probably wouldnt be on this website today).
Moongold--indeed fingerprinting is a bit uncalled for. Working with kids, elderly, police, FBI, or a bank...I can see that. But to be fingerprinted because of your hobby...thats unfair. I dont see people who sew or knit for a hobby getting fingerprinted. I dont see cooks getting fingerprinted (altho they'll probably be next tho, to see if they really made it "homemade"). I'm with you on that Moongold...fingerprinting is just uncalled for. Notice how much I'm typing. Gotta be all the fire in me right?
Hudson points out some great questions. A one time deal for the rest of your life (and if your as young as I am...what a deal it can be)...thats not such a bad thing as yearly.
And if you only do it for friends, family, and friends on AECT like I do, would I get stuck with it too? I dont even make money off of it yet. It does indeed leave alot unsaid and alot of questions that need to be worked out.
~Sorry for all the commentary...~
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| lunalafey |
20 Jul 2003 |
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[quote]Originally posted by punkangelgcm437
lunalafey-- I see your point as $400 not being that much...
I never said that it wasn't much, I'd love to have an extra $400oo right now, it would solve my trucks starter problem. What it is, is that $400.oo is the normal/average price for a business lic. And the fact that it's in the city, I imagine it could have been alot more. The $400 is the inital cost. The yearly 'deus' are based on the income/type of the business, and does not cost as much. I'm irritated with this news, don't get me wrong. There seems to be a bit more to this than what has been reported & then there is some other stuff I don't get, like; 'They' say it's a 'stab' at the Romani people, yet the Romani don't oppose it.
HUH?
Perhaps the SF outlook will be, we shall impose these 'laws' to fall back on when there is a crook in town, to the rest of ya' do what you have been doing and as long as no one complains, we'll leave you alone. I could SO see the City, taking the Romani's off to the side and telling them, 'don't worry about it'....& that is why they don't oppose it.
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| punkangelgcm437 |
20 Jul 2003 |
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lunalafey--I didnt mean to say it wasn't much...
What I kinda meant to say was...if you're opening a business like a gift shop or restuarant...that $400 is probably the least of your worries.
Now I'm sure everyone here would love an extra $400 (I know I would...I'd take a trip).
I agree with you....hopefully that'll be what happens. The laws are only to be used for crooks and frauds...not to innocent people.
Sorry for the error in what I meant to say.
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| Major Tom |
21 Jul 2003 |
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Just a question about this situation really:
Prior to passing this ordinance, wasn't fortunetelling illegal in San Francisco?
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| Umbrae |
21 Jul 2003 |
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Although it may have been Illegal, it existed. The palmreader on the corner of Broadway – Grant – and Columbus (North Beach) who has been there for 30 years that I know of…she is a fixture…but perhaps she had a way of skirting the law.
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| Teranar |
22 Jul 2003 |
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Before reading this thread I didn't even know the gov't officially had an opinion about tarot. I'd better check to see if there's any laws in Nashville about that - I mean these people here made it illegal to catch fish with a lasso! I've actually gotten kicked out of a coffee shop for trying to read, and now I'm worried how close I came to being arrested! (Though my older brother had a suggestion for those living in SF - Just read illegally like the gypsys probably will keep doing. Or become a faith healer and scam legislaters.)
... I also bet all these laws against fortune telling kills my idea of travelling across the country in a van earning gas and food money reading fortunes out of random parking lots.
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| HudsonGray |
22 Jul 2003 |
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"... I also bet all these laws against fortune telling kills my idea of travelling across the country in a van earning gas and food money reading fortunes out of random parking lots."
Yeah, you'd need a mobile sellers permit from each state you're going to do it in.
lol
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| Summerdream |
22 Jul 2003 |
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Originally posted by Major Tom
I was fingerprinted before I was allowed to work as a Teacher's aide and playground supervisor. Anyone working with the vunerable, i.e. children, older people, people with mental health difficulties, etc., gets fingerprinted and has a background check before they begin work. People working for local, state or national government also get fingerprinted. Fingerprinting is actually pretty wide-spread as a condition of employment for a variety of professions.
The business license is more the issue really.
Hi Major Tom,
Last year I worked as a playground/recess supervisor and also a substitute teacher's aide and I also had to get fingerprinted before I could start the job. It wasn't a big deal really but it is law in our state that anyone who works in the schools whether they are a janitor or whatever that they need to be fingerprinted. By the way, I live in Maine, USA.
Blessings,
Momof3girls
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| Astra |
23 Jul 2003 |
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Originally posted by HudsonGray
"... I also bet all these laws against fortune telling kills my idea of travelling across the country in a van earning gas and food money reading fortunes out of random parking lots."
Yeah, you'd need a mobile sellers permit from each state you're going to do it in.
lol
Actually, make that each city, village, or township - Illinois, at least, is a patchwork quilt that way, and what is legal on one side of the street often isn't on the other.
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| carrielynnsim |
28 Jul 2003 |
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I live near Los Angeles and there are many Tarot businesses here. However, i'd say 99% say for entertainment purposes only. I believe that is to keep the "sue-happy" people in check. The best ones are usually at the book stores where they have a little room they will take you in if you ask for a reading, never seen a sign in those places. The difference is that there is no advertisement and the only people that are even aware of this are people who go in to find books, crystals, tarot cards, etc. There are a couple stores near me that do this and it doesn't matter if you have money or not, you can choose to make a donation, or simply walk out. It's up to you. The people in these stores are really well spoken and I believe they do it mostly to teach, not to earn a living.
My husband is a plumber and it's true you need a permit in every city, so if you're planning on going coast to coast doing readings in parking lots for gas & food money you'll need at least three extra readings in each town to pay for the permit!
Well, i've rambled enough,
Carrie
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| DeLani |
02 Aug 2003 |
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Originally posted by Major Tom
Just a question about this situation really:
Prior to passing this ordinance, wasn't fortunetelling illegal in San Francisco?
Hi again,
I posted this on the thread about the fraudulent psychic giving us a bad name, but I'll repeat it here too:
Up until 1984 it was illegal. In 1975, feminist author and witch Z. Budapest was busted for reading cards. Not because she was committing fraud; in fact, it was because she really did do an accurate reading, she was convicted of fortune-telling. She fought it for many years, until finally giving up in dispair. But 9 years later, the Supreme court of Cali. overturned that law. But up until then, I'm pretty sure she was the only one who ever went to jail over it.
This is 100% about religious freedom and freedom of speech. I hope someone challenges this. Any Californians here willing to take up the challenge?
And Silverlotus, you are absolutely right about all the laws here in the US. Can we say 'fascism,' boys and girls?
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The The Law in the States, and Psychics. thread was originally posted on 19 Jul 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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