Any suggestions what deck to use for Afroamerican querents?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

catlin	20 Aug 2003
Ok, I have Ancestral Path, Goddess, wild spirit, Cosmic tribe , tarot of the Orishas, New Orleans Voodoo tarot but none of these really is useful for Afroamerican clients (at least in my opinion). They either shrink away from the Voodoo-looking decks or cannot identify with "white" or Asian looking courtcards. Is there something out there which would be helpful for reading for such querents? Ok, this is the Virgo part in me who is asking. Any ideas?

Ross G Caldwell	20 Aug 2003
You might try an Egyptian deck - the most recent being Giordano Berti/Severino Baraldi "Tarot of Ramses" (Llewellyn/Lo Scarabeo). http://www.ecauldron.com/trtrtoe.php Many such decks portray the facial features and skin colour of real Egyptians (i.e. not Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra). Martin Bernal's "Black Athena" and the subsequent debates have brought much light to bear on the African contribution to civilization. http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/phibalas/dialogue2001/Dialogical%20Thinkers/Bernal.htm A Tarot de Marseille wouldn't be bad either - although it is from Europe, the imagery is foreign enough to most people that the word "white Eurocentric mythology" isn't the first thing that leaps to mind... I think a deck done in an Ethiopian style would be lovely, but I haven't seen one yet. Ross

dolphinprincess	20 Aug 2003
There is also an African Tarot: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/african/index.html The art is a bit cartoonish, but I think the images are very easy to understand.

Pollux	20 Aug 2003
WHAT? Catlin doesn't have World Spirit??? It would be the best pic, black characters show up here and there in the cards without a specific rule. The Queen of Pentacles is Mayan, the Page of Wands is a youthful girl from Continental Africa I'd say, the Empress is just THE Empress, and bla bla bla... GET A WORLD SPIRIT or you'll have me raging! Hey people, how's it possible Catlin never got a World Spirit? We must absolutely force and compell here to get one... }) Anyway, to get back to your question, I think a lean Rider-Waite-Smith or a very close clone (like, say, Spiral) would do the trick. Or as Ross suggested a Marseille.

SongDeva	20 Aug 2003
I would think Ancestral Path would be fine. I would also suggest letting a querent choose a deck anytime you feel doubtful. Honestly, I feel most would be fine, since we all have exposure to so many cultures nowadays. I'm not sure that I personally feel a need to pick a deck for a client based on their culture. I would go for whichever one I am drawn to, or they are drawn to. Edited to add: Are you familliar with the Gendron Tarot at all? This might be worth a look. *shrug* I say might because it seems to be universal (majors), but it's on its way to me in the mail, so I haven't seen the whole thing.

catti	20 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux It would be the best pic, black characters show up here and there in the cards without a specific rule. The Queen of Pentacles is Mayan, the Page of Wands is a youthful girl from Continental Africa I'd say, the Empress is just THE Empress, and bla bla bla... Or as Ross suggested a Marseille. catlin , i think pollux and ross have excellent suggestions as i asked a similar question a few months ago. Tried Ancestral Path but it did not work for me ...the arthurian imagery as far as i was concerned was way off and well, it was segregated. African tarot i didnt find appealing. Something i noticed is that it is mainly American Blacks that are really concerned with their african heritage, the dominicans and puerto ricans i read for dont think of themselves as african anything, so the images dont speak to them. That is what you were saying about the Voodoo deck i think.Too often the decks out there seem very "token" in there "multicultural " representations.... another option is use a fantasy deck, cat people, mermaids dragons stuff that isnt human( i dont know how you feel about the 'authenticity ' of those types of decks) I am trying out Ross's idea by getting a more ancient deck and i am waiting for someone to offer up the world spirit deck for trade [ ;-)] . blue people red people ALL colors. seems like it might work. I want a deck that blends all the colors like the culture i live in. not just black blacks and white whites but earth toned peoples with blue green and hazel to black eyes...y'know? the final option is what i think it has to be: We must make the deck

bunnyhop	20 Aug 2003
it would be great to have a deck that was a little more diverse, but one can still identify with some aspects of some court cards. depends on what kind of mood you're in. using the goddess deck, sometimes i feel like the princess of wands, sometimes the princess of cups, and i don't look anything like either one of those cards. i just direct the querent to pick an indicator card (if i use them at all) based on what kind of person, emotions, or actions each court card represents, not the color of the portrayed character's skin.

Logiatrix	20 Aug 2003
It is a valid concern that I was forced to examine in accordance with one of my long-time querents, who is an Islamic African-American male. He liked the Gill deck, and our readings always went well. His work is with people of color, and he referred me to several other clients, all African-American, Native American, or Hispanic. The Gill was still fine, but I wanted a deck with more dark-skinned people in it. I tarot-shopped until I thought I had "the perfect deck" with the Buckland Romani, till someone took offense with the Hanged Rabbit...*sigh* Then, I gained two Vietnamese clients...now what? :( Well, finances forced me to flounder with the decks on my shelf. That's a good thing, because IMO, there is no perfect deck that crosses ALL cultures, belief systems and races. I have made two suprising discoveries... Firstly, traditional images work best, and that suprised me. I have had the greatest success in this regard with the Visconti, Marseille, RWS, and playing card decks. I had initially assumed that these decks were extremely ethnocentric, so I hadn't even considered them to be a solution. However, it seems that when the images are classic, they are not typically identified by the client with ANY race or cultural. Kind of "ethno-generic." Another solution is NO people at all. All animals, dragons, angels, or birds--whatever--and who can complain? Of course, someone might complain anyway. I also have to learn to not let that deter me, as long as my other querents are pleased with my work. Or, I can learn to read with toothpicks or a blank deck! :)

Umbrae	20 Aug 2003
If you ever read with regular playing cards, hunt down a deck marketed as "Sheba playing cards"

catti	20 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae "Sheba playing cards" where can i see them?

Indigo_lady	21 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tauni I tarot-shopped until I thought I had "the perfect deck" with the Buckland Romani, till someone took offense with the Hanged Rabbit...*sigh* Then, I gained two Vietnamese clients...now what? :( just curious, why did someone get offended with the hanged rabbit ?????????

Umbrae	21 Aug 2003
The Queen of Sheba Deck is available from Philbee in Portland Oregon @ a bargain price of $4.50 per pack.

Logiatrix	21 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Indigo_lady just curious, why did someone get offended with the hanged rabbit ????????? The querent in question was someone not used to modern tarot images, which is not an uncommon situation. She responded much better to the Visconti Gold. She was a young African-American girl, eighteen, and not very worldly or world-aware when I met her. With no intention of stereo-typing her, indeed, her questions never strayed from the topic of boys! She is a good example of why I have found that it is best to stay with traditional decks for most public readings. :)

Logiatrix	21 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae The Queen of Sheba Deck is available from Philbee in Portland Oregon @ a bargain price of $4.50 per pack. This looks like a wonderful deck...bummer that the Jokers arre not pictorial. :( I like to use the Jokers... Another poker deck along this same theme is "Cards of Colour." I picked up a deck many, many years ago at a drugstore. It became my fave reading deck a few years ago when I started to learn fortunetelling with playing cards. The court cards are all people of varying shades of brown, with African features. Alas, I haven't been able to find any information or even references on this deck on the web. All I know is that the publisher is in Chicago.

Aerin	21 Aug 2003
Read the title of this thread, and my brain said to me World Spirit World Spirit World Spirit So I second the World Spirit suggestion. It's a great deck and easy to read with, and inclusive rather than exclusive in terms of race and gender. http://www.aeclectic.net/world-spirit/index.html Also particularly good if you have occasion to meet any blue people. Aerin

catlin	21 Aug 2003
but I mistyped and wrote Wild Spirit instead (guess that was a Freudian slip as I still want that deck, too) but I have reserved my World Spirit deck for Tarot spellwork as one querent found that deck too Voodoo-like but it works great for spellwork, I can tell you! I like the Queen Sheba cards but have no idea how to get them here in good ol' Germany. I still have the Rock Art Tarot, maybe this would work. I love working with significators so I found out that Afroamerican or Asian querents have lots of trouble identifying themselves with nice white queens etc. I usually limit myself to offer 5 decks for the querent to choose from (RW, Thoth, Legend, Journey to the Orient and Witches) but the Witches does not work for significators because they all look too similar and too white (the latter also referring to thoth, Legend and RW and the Journey to the Orient is too Chinese for them).

MeeWah	21 Aug 2003
The folks I read for in person are diverse & all have apparently been accepting of whatever decks I use for them. That there could be an issue with a deck has never been raised. 'Tis a good idea to be sensitive to such, but I think querents in general are more interested in the reading than in the deck used.

dolphingirl	21 Aug 2003
While I try to offer decks without nudity "scarry" death cards, I havn't had any problems with decks bothering people. Usually people are so interrested in what I am saying that they don't pay a ton of attention to the fact that all the cards are of one ethnicity. Here are a few decks I think might be good to use with a variety of people. Fey deck- great reading deck and the fey come in all colors Napo Deck- So pretty and colorful fun to look at Or maybe try one of the color yourself decks either the B.O.T.A or Robin Woods new color it yourself version of her deck. :) Good luck on finding that deck that will work with everyone :)

Destiny	20 Oct 2003
[quote]Originally posted by catlin ......They either shrink away from the Voodoo-looking decks or cannot identify with "white" or Asian looking courtcards. Is there something out there which would be helpful for reading for such querents? Ok, this is the Virgo part in me who is asking. Any ideas? ------------------------- Most of my clients come form a mixed backgrounds and I've never had a problem and I use the Aquarian deck. Yes the faces are very white but when doing readings for Afroamerican or black people as I would like to say as I'm in the UK It doesn't make any difference! Why not see the cups as dark coloured people, swords as white and what ever you want for the wands ands coins. Otherwise you will just do "flat" readings instead of using your gut feelings. I think there should be much more "mixed decks" but I don't think that will slove anything but it would be good for such markets. I would stress any new creatives to bear this in mind. I know for sure that I would creata a multi deck when I have the time to do so.

catlin	20 Oct 2003
Until now I have added the Goddess deck and the Cat people deck to my reading decks for coloured querents but the Queen of Sheba decks and a Spanish version of the World Spirit deck are expected to be added to my collection. I don't know if this is typical for the folk there around but my querents want to identify somehow with the deck/s that are used this is why I put such an emphasis on the right deck. As I work a lot with significators this is also a very important point for me.

Astra	20 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catti I want a deck that blends all the colors like the culture i live in. not just black blacks and white whites but earth toned peoples with blue green and hazel to black eyes...y'know? the final option is what i think it has to be: We must make the deck I've got one of those. Not only reasonable colors but some quite unreasonable and spectacular colors and textures. (I wanted it to be color-blind.) I just haven't gotten a publisher yet, and I'm inching towards publishing it myself (all that money!). Check out www.worldtreeproducts.com and see what you think.

Destiny	21 Oct 2003
QUOTE Originally posted by catlin Until now I have added the Goddess deck and the Cat people deck to my reading decks for coloured querents but the Queen of Sheba decks and a Spanish version of the World Spirit deck are expected to be added to my collection. I don't know if this is typical for the folk there around but my querents want to identify somehow with the deck/s that are used this is why I put such an emphasis on the right deck. As I work a lot with significators this is also a very important point for me. --------------------- The world spirit sounds, and a few others but I would find see it as an inslut if the cat people or the worldtree was used for such querents. You might as well use the stick tarot if it's such an issue. Most querents regarding their colour want to find out where they are placed in the spread. This would be the querents interpration which will be weak as they don't know how you are reading your spread. That's way I find that there is no need for the querents to know which card represent them.(even if they ask) The reason why I say this is because you can't please all your querents when it comes to colour and they would benefit alot more i this was not mentioned. Having spoken to such querents they have had very good readings from decks who don't have people of colour. They also don't want any decks "just" for them, however they would like to see more new decks with mixed people.

Myrrha	21 Oct 2003
My second deck was an uncoated Rider/Waite/Smith which I colored with colored pencils, including giving many of the characters darker skin tones, at random throughout the deck. It works out well, but I don't read in a way where a dark skinned person on the card necessarily represents a dark skinned person in life. The only decks that really make me uncomfortable are the apartheid decks where different "races" are in different suites. A suggestion that hasn't been mentioned yet: An African-American professional reader in my area uses the Thoth deck a lot. If you look at that deck, although Crowley was not trying to be non-racist (ha!) he did see the characters in the deck as archetypes, energies, rather than as people. This comes through in the art and many of the characters don't look like any particular ethnicity. Myrrha

Destiny	21 Oct 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Myrrha A suggestion that hasn't been mentioned yet: An African-American professional reader in my area uses the Thoth deck a lot. If you look at that deck, although Crowley was not trying to be non-racist (ha!) he did see the characters in the deck as archetypes, energies, rather than as people. This comes through in the art and many of the characters don't look like any particular ethnicity. ------------- Jsut as I was going to edit my last post :) I too use the Thoth deck just because I'm stick of the RWS. You can't go wrong with that deck. I'm also hoping to see Marie white full deck as it has all aspects sorted :D

punchinella	26 Oct 2003
In response to Myrrha's words-- 'The only decks that really make me uncomfortable are the apartheid decks where different "races" are in different suites' (I don't know how to make the computer do the quoting yet) I just want to say that I doubt whether any designer of a multicultural deck--e.g., Ancestral Path--actually wants to promote apartheid . . . !!! I think, rather, that the choice to present different peoples separately is more the result of concern for narrative consistency within the suits. If all the people within a suit look totally different from one another, then the narrative 'line' is compromised (unless, of course, they appear together on the same card . . . that's something else altogether.) In my opinion, the best decks do tend to function in a naturally narrative manner, within the 10 numbered cards of each suit. & when it comes to decks focusing on the cultures of peoples . . . Stories/mythologies do come from specific places, & those places are peopled with specific racial types. In order to preserve the integrity of, say, a particular myth, I do think that it's more than reasonable to make the characters involved resemble the people whose myth it happens to be . . . Does that make any sense at all?? P.

Emily	26 Oct 2003
The Tarot of the Spirit a Thoth like clone and the Morgan Greer might be decks worth considering too. Infact the Morgan Greer has people of different colours and cultures, not so much in the Majors though but in the Minors. The Ancient Egyptian (Clive Barrett) and the Haindl are a couple of other decks that you might like.

Myrrha	26 Oct 2003
hmmm, I guess I wasn't really responding to the intentions of the creators of the decks, more to the way it feels to look at them and think about reading with them. People in my neighborhood are different colors, people in my workplace are different colors, people in my family are different colors, so it just seems bizarre to have everyone neatly separated in a tarot deck. Maybe this historical narrative aspect is important to some readers (A historical/mythological deck that recognized the mixed nature of some ancient societies would be really fascinating, like an Alexandrine Egyptian deck that depicted the mix of Greeks, Egyptians, Jews, Africans, etc that made up the culture. Or a deck set in Carthage at the time of the Punic wars) but for me the intellectual idea of narrative "line" just wouldn't make up for the feelings of strangeness and wrongness of the separated suites. We all view reality through a lens of assumptions and expectations, I guess. For me it does not disrupt narrative line when people of different colors or origins are depicted in the same suite. --Myrrha Quote: Originally posted by punchinella In response to Myrrha's words-- 'The only decks that really make me uncomfortable are the apartheid decks where different "races" are in different suites' (I don't know how to make the computer do the quoting yet) I just want to say that I doubt whether any designer of a multicultural deck--e.g., Ancestral Path--actually wants to promote apartheid . . . !!! I think, rather, that the choice to present different peoples separately is more the result of concern for narrative consistency within the suits. If all the people within a suit look totally different from one another, then the narrative 'line' is compromised (unless, of course, they appear together on the same card . . . that's something else altogether.) In my opinion, the best decks do tend to function in a naturally narrative manner, within the 10 numbered cards of each suit. & when it comes to decks focusing on the cultures of peoples . . . Stories/mythologies do come from specific places, & those places are peopled with specific racial types. In order to preserve the integrity of, say, a particular myth, I do think that it's more than reasonable to make the characters involved resemble the people whose myth it happens to be . . . Does that make any sense at all?? P.

catlin	27 Oct 2003
Ok, now I have added the Cat ppl tarot, Goddess deck and the Spanish version of the World Spirit plus all my other fav reading decks mentioned before. I think that should be to everybody's taste now.

punchinella	27 Oct 2003
Myrrha's words: " . . . for me the intellectual idea of narrative "line" just wouldn't make up for the feelings of strangeness and wrongness of the separated suites." Well Myrrha, not to belabour the point, but even if the suits start out separate this changes the moment you shuffle the deck . . . Sort of like real life . . . ! P.

XLCR	27 Oct 2003
Tarot of the ages...it has Egyptian majors, Viking swords, Africans for the wands and East Indians for coins...this is only my second deck - I began using Sacred Circle Tarot. Once while doing an online reading I drew the knight of wands and proceeded to tell the quarant that this person was dark - when she asked what did I mean I explained that the person appeared to be dark complected to me as in Italian, Hispanic, or African American - but definately not fair skinned. This person happened to be African American so my description fit...so for me I guess deck doens't matter because intuition seems to step in...

Molly	27 Oct 2003
I just wanted to give The Light and Shadow Tarot a mention.... it is a black and white deck, so it may not appeal to everyone, as some people just prefer colorized decks, but the colors of the cards are just so vibrant regardless... and all different skin colors are represented. I also find that it is nicely balanced deck as far as mascaline/feminine energy, which can be another concern for querants... not using a deck that is too far skewed in either direction that the opposite sex feels uncomfortable. Very lovely deck for all races/genders, I think.

punchinella	28 Oct 2003
Molly that reminds me--I noticed a black & white deck on the tarotgarden website once that reminded me of the light & shadow, except that I liked it even better . . . &, as I recall, what I saw of it on that site looked to be entirely African-American. It was o-o-p, done in the seventies, & I would have purchased it then & there, I loved it so much . . . only, being o-o-p, it was also rather horrendously expensive. Tarotgarden had, at that time, a French version under another name. I've been back to the site many times recently, trying to locate the tarot in question, always unsuccessfully, because I've forgotten the name. I wonder if anybody here has an idea??? Anyway Catlin--IF anybody knows the deck I mean, perhaps, some day in the far off future, you might think about tracking down a copy?? It DID strike me as looking distinctively (exclusively?) African-American. Now, why should that strike me as so unique? You'd think there would be others . . . I guess that was your original point wasn't it (or, your original question)--P. Edit: I found it--the 'New Tarot', Hurley & Horler . . . only, it's got white people in it too. Quite a few of them. Ah, well. Doesn't it seem like there SHOULD be at least ONE totally African-American deck . . . ??? I mean . . . this culture is major, doesn't it deserve at least one deck? Issues of when/where to use it aside, I find the fact very weird that it doesn't exist. I mean, there are so many hundreds of exclusively caucasian decks . . . & native north american decks, & latin american decks, & asian decks, & multi- decks . . . Well, maybe this has something to do with people not wanting to be pigeon-holed/labelled . . . maybe the astonishment I'm experiencing at the moment belies innate prejudice/preconception . . . Will have to think hard on this one--P.

Myrrha	28 Oct 2003
:) Good point, Pulchinella. By the way, to quote all you have to do is highlight the words in the original posting and then click on "quote" rather than "reply" -Myrrha Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Myrrha's words: " . . . for me the intellectual idea of narrative "line" just wouldn't make up for the feelings of strangeness and wrongness of the separated suites." Well Myrrha, not to belabour the point, but even if the suits start out separate this changes the moment you shuffle the deck . . . Sort of like real life . . . ! P.

catlin	29 Oct 2003
I had already thought about getting a second copy of the Ravenwood Eastern tarot and colour this to my taste but until now I did not find another one and I wanted to keep my original version uncoloured.

The Any suggestions what deck to use for Afroamerican querents? thread was originally posted on 20 Aug 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.