card symbols-to-elemental symbols-to-planetary symbols
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| G.I.R. |
30 Aug 2003 |
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I'm trying to find the relationships between Swords/cups/pentacles/wands to planets and elements. I'm sure there are other pages about this, so maybe if there are, just send a link. thanx in advance
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| jmd |
31 Aug 2003 |
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There certainly are correlations which are variously made by various authors and various artists on decks, but there is no single 'tradition'.
For example, Swords has commonly been allocated to the element of either Fire or Air in numerous decks. Interestingly, the (eastern European) Lasenic deck correlates it to Earth, and the (Spanish) Gran Tarot Esoterico to Water...
As with most people, I have a personal preference:- Fire - Swords
(though I may at times treat Swords as another element);
- Air - Wands
(though I may at times treat Wands as another element);
- Water - Cups
(though I may at times treat Cups as another element); and
- Earth - Coins
(though I may at times treat Coins as another element)!
I'm sure others will provide other correlations. Personally, I do not tend to make astrological correlations with the pips, unless specifically working Golden Dawn or Crowley correlations...
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| Baby Owl |
31 Aug 2003 |
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It seems to me that this would also depend on the specific deck you are using. (As jmd points out, Crowley et al. give clear astrological associations.) Other decks do the same, for whatever reason.
If the creator of the deck you are using does not offer planet or element correlations, you have your work cut out for you!
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| matfav |
02 Sep 2003 |
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I have seen the elements mixed up with the minor arcana alot.
In ancient times it was done on purpose so the initiate would only have the right keys to Tarot and the uninitiated would never know....
Swords cut through the air, deal with the mind, so swords are given to the element air not fire.
Wands are given to fire as to the energetic action of growth and enertprise
Cups to water and pentacles to earth,
There is no cards in swords that invite a friendly warmth or an ideal into action..
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| jmd |
02 Sep 2003 |
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matfav certainly makes strong comments, ones which I personally do not, as those who already know me, agree with.
The minor arcana alotments, or rather, the suit alotments, to the four elements, do vary a lot. And not through 'blinds' which would fool the uninitiated.
The examples of decks I gave above were designed by people who worked within an initiatory tradition. The Lasenic is even more obviously so to my eyes, and there, the deck has clear elemental attributions at variance with what Case or others may tend to assert.
If one takes the suits, for example, from the Schaffhouse deck (published as Tarot Classic by US Games - a deck which is a 19th century Marseilles variant), the sword suit are clearly reddish, and the element of Fire shines through. There it is certainly not a blind, for one needs to have taken the time and effort to even notice such subtlety.
There, many of the swords can easily be seen as having that friendly warm glow, maybe hanging over the fireplace, congeniality abounding, with the swords ever ready to defend the ideal with quite fiery action if required!
In the suit of sticks/staffs/'wands', the cut branches and their leafy outgrowth hint more at the thoughts which may arise as leaves upon a broader and more established stem...
These are more than mere ways of considering the cards, they are ways of working them.
If we are to have constructive dialogue, then, of course we may seriously disagree, for thereby clarity may arise.
Some of the comments made in some books and some posts (including mine at times), hints at the importance in which Tarot is considered. Tarot may very well have a 'true' structure and correlation which the spiritual world is seeking to manifest through our efforts. If this is the case, then how do we develop the necessary organs of perception which will reflect the endeavour, and lead us to discern the essential from the inessential?
Some decks, of course, already clearly make certain connections. With those, the person using them may not have the visual freedom to allow other possibilities. If one uses either Case's (BOTA) or the Waite/Colman-Smith solely, one will certainly be lead to similar conclusions as matfav articulates. Likewise, if one only uses the Gran Tarot Esoterico, different, but as 'clear' and strong, statements about elemental correlations would be made: swords with water and cups with air.
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| jmd |
02 Sep 2003 |
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P.S.:
I found another earlier remark I also made with regards to elemental attributions in a thread, started by Redwood, which deals with this whole important aspect:Just thought it would also be of interest :)
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| matfav |
02 Sep 2003 |
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In respect, there is no way swords ca be attributed to the element fire
Swords (s-words) deal with the mind, thinking, looking at swords is usually dark and deals with the element of mind which is air.
As for swords being fire, i doubt it
I guess we will have to disagree on this one
Matthew
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| Sulis |
02 Sep 2003 |
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I associate wands with fire and swords with air but I can see how they could easily be the other way round.
Swords are forged in fire.
Wands are waved through the air and being made of wood would be consumed by fire.
Apparantly the Crystal Tarot associates swords with water.
I think that the message from this is that you should go with whatever correspondences feel right to you.
Love and light
Crystalmynx xx
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The card symbols-to-elemental symbols-to-planetary symbols thread was originally posted on 30 Aug 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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