Crowley's Astrology - Random musings

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Macavity	15 Aug 2003
A general impression might be that Mr. Crowley rather bodged his astrological assignments of the Thoth Minor Arcana. No - Don't take offence yet! }) But there remain things that I do often wonder about... I suppose, from an astrological point of view, when we speak of the major arcana assignments like Emperor = Aries, what we really mean is "Sun in Aries" - No? (I stand to be enlightened) Would that not then imply a significant relationship with certain minor cards e.g. 3 Wands (Virtue) which is also "Sun in Aries". Other examples would be 4 Disks & Devil, for Capricorn etc. BUT, simply, I have never heared of this significance being particularly noted anywhere? Clearly using Mr. C's system, the totality of planet + sign combos are not completely covered and indeed there is already duplication! Now if I'd have started to assign minors to planet + sign combos, I might have left "sun in" combos to the majors and, noting I'd need "36" (4 suites of pips 2 thru 10) combos for the minors, assigned these to the SIX remaining planets times TWELVE sign combos left. (6 X 12 = 72 - Cool eh?) I'd than have just the right number of combos for my minors BOTH upright and reversed! :D My astrological knowledge is rather minimal, so I do wonder: Are there planet + sign characteristics that have notable inverses or would this massively miss the point? I suspect ANY "correspondence system" must be taken with a large grain of salt - Period. They remain, nevertheless, quite FUN to devise... ;) Macavity (rambling)

Rusty Neon	15 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity A general impression might be that Mr. Crowley rather bodged his astrological assignments of the Thoth Minor Arcana. The Thoth Minor Arcana astrological assignments are the same as the prior, Golden Dawn assignments.

Ravenswing	16 Aug 2003
Macavity-- Crowley and the Golden Dawn have more or less the same astrological association... For the major arcana there are 3 elemental, 7 planetary and 12 zodiacal associations. When we say the Emperor is associated with Aries, we mean only the sign Aries, not the Sun in Aries. Consider the High Priestess-- she is associated with the Moon; not the Moon in any sign. This does lead to some interesting considerations, though. You gave an example of 3 of Wands (Virture) as being represented by the Sun in Aries. If we apply major arcana attributions here, we could equate the 3 of Wands as a combination of the Emperor (Aries) and the Sun (Sun). Extending this, we can represent all pip cards 2 - 10 as a combination of two major arcana cards... Thanks for your musings.... this is something I'll have to play around with for a bit. fly well Raven

Macavity	17 Aug 2003
Thanks indeed, Raven! :) Hmmm, I'm not too convinced, y'know. Hajo Banzhaf considers "luminaries" (sun. moon, planets) and the "twelve signs of the zodiac OR the sun in the signs". Sounds like one for arbitration. Maybe Tarot and Astrology use different concepts? Where are these astrologers, when you need them? :laugh: Otherwise, yours is an interesting observation, which I hadn't made - Seeing the minors as combinations of majors! As stated, my knowledge of astrology is minimal and derived from (the rather useful) "Keywords for Astrology" book by Banzhaf and Haebler. But I'm darned if I would be able to remember 7 (planets) x 12 (signs) worth of keywords even... }) Maybe a good case for a fully astrological deck 7 x 12 (planet/sign) minors plus "luminaries" and maybe elements? Perhaps there is one already? Perhaps Astrology "doesn't work like that"? ;) Best, Macavity

Moongold	17 Aug 2003
Does anyone know how the Golden Dawn arrived at their astrological attributions? Dan Staroff uses the same attributions as Crowley in his Tarot of the Sephiroth as well so I assume those are also based on Golden Dawn work. Would love to know.

Macavity	17 Aug 2003
Hi Moongold, Well, THAT bit I do kinda know about... But can I explain it? ;) The 36 small cards (2 thru 10 of four suits) each represent 10 degrees, one Decan or 1/3 of a zodiac sign. Then, ALL the: 2, 3 & 4's correspond to cardinal signs (Aries, Cancer, Libra & Capricorn) 5, 6 & 7's correspond to fixed signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio & Aquarius) 8, 9 & 10's correspond to mutable signs (Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius & Pisces) Then it gets trickier. Pencil and paper may help? Imagine 36 Decans (three per sign) going anti-clockwise from "9 o'clock", in zodiacal order: Aries, Taurus etc. The 2, 3 & 4 of Wands then correspond to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Decans of Aries resp. (2, 3, 4's corresponds to Cardinal signs) Wands are Fire and Aries is the First or Fire sign of the Cardinals. So the 2, 3 & 4 of Wands are all: "something in Aries". Uhm, still with me? :laugh: The planets are also assigned to the Decans, but they start at zero degrees (first decan) in LEO (note well!) and follow Kaballistic ordering (descending tree of life): Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon... It's much easier to work backwards from the cards and simply observe the overall symmetry of the thing? ;) But, provided you have the blessed thing correct, you will get: 2 Wands corresponds to Mars in Aries 3 Wands corresponds to Sun in Aries 4 Wands corresponds to Venus in Aries and then ... 5 Wands corresponds to Saturn in Leo! Which is just what the GD ordered :D Macavity P.S. Clear as mud, Eh? }) But the above corresponds pretty much to how Lon Milo DuQuette explains it in his "Chicken Kaballah", BUT he does have a rather nice CIRCULAR diagram, which helps a LOT! :)

Moongold	17 Aug 2003
Thanks Macavity, I know a little about astrology so I think I understand the principle. I need to sit down in a large space and lay everything out so that I can actually see it. There seems to be a certain logic to it. The themes of the card numbers seem to be aligned to the astrological themes. Chicken Kabbalah huh? A visit to the bookshop sounds in order as well

Macavity	17 Aug 2003
I suspect MUCH more (understanding) than I. Your knowledgable readings show me such a lot, so you should be more than up to this stuff! Perhaps you can even then answer my questions? :D I had been enabled to follow this, mostly due to hints received here. But DuQuette is perhaps the first author I have come across who reveals the neat symmetry of the GD idea, simply by dint of arranging the cards in a (doubtless BIG) circle! ;) I do look forward eagerly to his forthcoming book on the Crowley-Thoth deck - IIRC, to be published sometime towards the end of this year... Macav.

The Crowley's Astrology - Random musings thread was originally posted on 15 Aug 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.