Kicked out of a coffee shop

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Teranar	01 Aug 2003
Ok, I've told this story a few times, but not on the forum, but I thought it was both humorous and sad at the same time, so I thought I'd share it to see everyone's reaction. Ok, because of financial difficulties, I started going to coffee shops trying to read tarot to earn a little money. So I went to the local Starbucks, and went to a table, spread the cards out, and started asking people if they wanted to be read. After a few hours passed, a guy walked in, and as he came in he shot me this dirty look, then went in the back. He came out with the employee apron, shirt, and name tag that identified him as a manager. He came out, and screamed at the girls running the counter for letting 'that satanist' use his "satanic cards" and goes on a long screaming lecture, oblivious to his employees giggling or the regulars (Who all know me) erupting into belly laughter. By the time he's finished yelling at his employees, I've already cleaned my cards. He stomps over to me, points at the door, and screams "OUT!". On my way out, I notice this one regular who's a work from his laptop has been very carefully drawing a pinnacle from a paint program and started turning his laptop around. I didn't stick around to see the ensuing fireworks. Respond as you will. Misunderstood by Starbucks manager, Teranar

wavebreaker	01 Aug 2003
Just wondering: did you ask for permission beforehand to read in the shop? Not that that makes the manager's reaction correct, he could have just asked you politely to stop if he didn't like it. The way he behaved doesn't exactly sound like good advertising for his shop... ;)

jog1118	01 Aug 2003
you know teranar, if i had the time, i would have done the same: hang-out in coffe shops and hunt for clients; but having read your story made me think twice (a similar scenario would have been worse here in the philippines where ultra-fanatic-anti-occultist murk everywhere; just exaggerating) anyway, i agree with tarotlady that the next time you do this, ask permission from the establishment's manager. this way you'll save face. (but i did'nt like the starbucks manager's reaction, he could have been civil and just plain asked you to take away your cards) :smoker:

LittleWing	01 Aug 2003
Well I dont think that he should have dealt with it is this manner, at all !! - but he was right to ask you to leave. I used to work in a pub and we did not allow people to come in selling, collecting for charity etc ..... The customers come to relax and drink coffee etc and some may find it offensive, eg - other religeons and cultures. We used to organise theme nights etc, perhaps you could make an arrangement next time with someone.

MystiqueMoonlight	01 Aug 2003
I'm interested what city/country this happened in??? I think the manager was out of line. I don't think you needed to ask his permission. I know it is a place of business and all, but I like to think of a coffee shop as somehow a public place. IMO you did nothing but sit there with your cards in front of you hoping for someone to ask for a reading (unless you were wondering around the coffee shop asking to do readings for people, then perhaps that would be a bit invasive). Funny how sitting in a coffee shop doing readings for those who may ask is found to be more offensive than say someone knocking on your front door pushing their misquoted sections from a religious text. :smoker:

Macavity	01 Aug 2003
Ah, but how many cups of coffee did you get through in those "few hours"? ;) I always used to be amused by the, more European than British(?), posting of "Consommation Obligatoir" notices in Francophone cafes. I was never completely sure as to what they were alluding. :laugh: Macavity

callahwj	01 Aug 2003
starbucks is kind of infamous for not having the same open-minded counter-culture-ness of a real (ie, not corporate) coffee shop. That's why I don't go there. In any event. sounds like the manager just made himself look like a redneck, and now you have a great story to tell, so perhaps it was worth it? -Bill

Molly	01 Aug 2003
No matter whether he had the right to kick you out, his reaction was very extreme... I would hate to have to work for someone like that. And how sad for him, living in his close-minded tiny world, he will never see the beauty of a Mary-el tarot card (for example ;-)

Centaur	01 Aug 2003
Very funny, I have always stayed clear of large chains such as StarBucks. In London, I have read in various little Soho coffee-houses. The staff are much more friendly, and they do not seem to mind that someone is pulling in some more customers for them. C

Le_Corsair	01 Aug 2003
buying coffee or other items at regular intervals, if not, then the manager had every right to ask you to leave, if not in such a brutish fashion. The permission thing mentioned by everyone else so far appears to be the right course of action. A similar thing happened at a hotel I worked at one time. A desk clerk who claimed to be a psychic, and used tarot cards, began doing readings for guests; I don't know if money changed hands. The manager, a born-again Christian Iranian, fired her for "practicing witchcraft." The same manager fired a girl he hired the previous day when she showed up for work in a miniskirt, calling her a "slut." Ignorant brutes exist everywhere. Hopefully there are fewer and fewer every year. Bob :THERM

Centaur	01 Aug 2003
Can I just add that the only time I have ever been kicked out of a coffee shop, but when I was doing a free reading for one of my friends!!!

Kiama	01 Aug 2003
I was giggling just thinking about the scene of a whole Starbucks coffee shop bursting into raucous laughter... I must admit, I steer clear of big corporate chains aswell, and prefer pubs and small coffee-shops. Often, I'll meet people there to do pre-arranged readings for them, and whilst we're there we'll buy a coffee/drink/food, so the venue also gets something out of it! There is no laws saying that owners of pubs, etc aren't allowed to throw people out. In fact, I recently learned that the law states they can throw anybody out they wish, even for the tiniest thing such as wearing a T-shirt that another customer finds offensive. However, every place I've been to has been reasonable, and has simply let me get on with the reading. The pub I regularly go to had the staff coming to me asking for readings on Halloween... :D However, even with the laws, the manager of Starbucks was wrong to throw you out in that manner, and he made himself look incredibly stupid, closed-minded, and arrogant. Teranar: When you say that one of the other regulars was 'drawing a pinnacle' on his laptop, are you referring to one of those video-conference things? If so, that makes the whole story even funnier... }) Kiama

Woof	01 Aug 2003
He may have been within his rights to ask you to stop and/or leave; however, the way he kicked you out was completely out of line. I'd get his name and complain to corporate. That guy needs a lesson in manners! Woof

Umbrae	01 Aug 2003
My opinion, and a cornerstone of my life: Never ask permission, ask forgiveness. Never give them a chance to say no. I find less corporate shops better, but if corporate shops are your only choice, try this. (an opinion) I don’t like to advertise (ask folks if they want readings), this can anger some managers who think you are threatening their business as opposed to seeing the symbiotic nature of it. Instead…I deal a couple cards into a non-spread and begin writing in my journal. And this is key (don’t ask why – but this s*** works). Don’t write about crap (“so here I sit at Star*ucks starving to death and trying to do a reading blah blah blah”) but write seriously. You have three or four cards in a non-spread…write about them. Write about their relationships. Why a non-spread? Because as soon as you do a real spread Joe Smith will want a real reading and you’re gonna have to scoop up your cards and…that spread will be gone…

callahwj	01 Aug 2003
actualy, American bussiness owners do have a right to throw people out, deny them service, or anything they want as long as it's not done in a discriminatory manner. For example he can thrown out a guy who's african american but he can't throw out a guy for BEING african american. What the starbucks guy said seems to indicate religious discrimination. Branding you as a satanist (and so what if you were anyway, right) indicates a level of intolerance beyond normal corporate closed-mindedness. It reaches the level of bigotry. I'm sure he could lose his job over this if you felt the need to pursue it. If you're not in america or a nation with similar laws, and this doesn't apply to you, I apologize...I forget this internet thing is international sometimes :-) -Bill

catboxer	01 Aug 2003
I would have said, "Ok, Mister, I'm leaving, but I'm going to send several platoons of demons to spend the next few nights under your bed and in your closet, and they'll also fiddle with your car engine. I'm also going to tell the Jehovah's Witnesses where you live. Believe me, the demons have already given me that information." I hate Starbucks on principle, but I'm unfortunately addicted to their house blend. Some cups of java may approach the greatness of Starbucks regular leaded, but none quite equal it and none surpass it. It's a bona fide, truly fine, top of the line drug rush. One large cup sets you up for an entire morning or afternoon. And if you drink two large cups before starting to clean house, you end up cleaning the cracks in the walls.

HudsonGray	01 Aug 2003
Hmm, I've seen people reading in coffee shops around the city with no manager problems, they've even had people doing readings late at night over at cheapo George Webb's restaurant. Depends on the establishment. At least the customers & staf didn't fall for that satanic outburst of his own that he put on. I like what Umbrae says about oozing into it.

Teranar	02 Aug 2003
Ok, to answer the questions: no, I hadn't actually asked permission, but the girls at the counter had seen me read there before, no I did not buy anything on that occasion, but I had on previous occasions, I planned to buy something with the first reading I did (Which never occured), I had come in several times before and knew the girls at the counter (They even gave me a free coffee once) and this manager I had never seen before, and when he came in it looked as though he was just coming in to work. He also came straight out and bauled at his employees, and the only thing he actually said to me was out. This is in Nashville, Tennessee, BTW. And the guy with a laptop... all I saw was a paint thing open on his laptop and him playing with the straight line forming a :OL . My brother suggests I find out that guy's hours and go in when he's not there just to spite him. I don't think that's a good idea, though, I don't wanna get arrested. Besides, there's a Boarders across the street from it I've been going to to. BTW Umbrae that's a good suggestion - I might try that.

Cerulean	02 Aug 2003
I've only been in one local teahouse, but we actually stay there for a poetry workgroup around the couch/table area. Yes, we do stay for three hours and we buy tea and sometimes munchies. The Asian women do not care how long we are there: they give us free water and hot water refills as well. The journal idea is very good. If I were you, I'd take more than one or two decks. A personal smallish-size deck, if you have one, just for you, might be good. Sometimes I take notes for study or work on watercolor sketches in a cafe just so I can focus on one or two things with what I brought with me. Good luck. Mari H.

punkangelgcm437	03 Aug 2003
Teranar.. The magager guy did act pretty inappropriately...but I suppose there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. Except dont go to starbucks anymore. The finding out his hours idea isn't what I'd do either...cuz someone will probably say "Hey Nick (or whatever his name will be), that lady you yelled at (whenever) came in to see what hours you worked.". He'll probably get mad and change them...just to tick you off. I know its petty & stupid, but some people just suck like that. PLus yuh never know what nutballs you're gonna find. I'm from Indiana (not too far from you), and I haven't done the local shops. Partly cuz I'm not sure how/if to ask the managers and if I'd even get a response from the public. We have a starbucks here too...it's kinda a college hang out cuz it's pretty quiet & smells good (I love the Vanilla Creme Frapachinos). We also have a Book A Million in the mall...and they even sell tarot cards (the only place I know that does around here)...but I'm not sure if they want someone doing readings in their store. Plus the only place is inside the Coffee Shop inside Books A Million...so...::shrugs:: I think Umbrae has the right idea...I'd go with what he suggested.

Teranar	03 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by punkangelgcm437 that lady you yelled at (whenever) came in to see what hours you worked.". (Checks himself) I think we need our genders on our profiles. Yeah, I'm gonna follow Umbrae's suggestion, and I'm also going to the Boarders cafe (Which is right across the street and I'm personal friends with everyone there and they sell tarot cards there anyway.) Before you ask, I went to the starbucks cause more people go there, and I figured pickings would be better.

HudsonGray	03 Aug 2003
(checks HERself) Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Maybe a M or F in the profiles?

wavebreaker	03 Aug 2003
Hm, I still think you should ask permission first. If I was a shop owner, I'd want a say in what kind of services someone is offering on my premises, so I'd want to know beforehand. We may not agree with the fact that some shop owners don't want tarot readers on their premises, but if they don't want to be associated with tarot, that's their right to decide (although it doesn't excuse the manager's rude behaviour in this case, obviously). What if you had a wonderful pagan shop and you had, say, jehovah's witnesses or extremist Christians come in and offer their "services"? That wouldn't exactly be an advertisement for your shop...

MystiqueMoonlight	03 Aug 2003
I liken doing a reading in a coffee shop like have a meeting with someone. Often I have meetings with magazines etc (who want my adverstising money) in coffee shops. How funny it would be for them to be kicked out.... :smoker:

punkangelgcm437	03 Aug 2003
I'm sorry yall. I feel so bad now ::cries:: But yeah, we definitly need a Guy/Girl thing on here....so that way I dont mix yall up. I'm really sorry tho Teranar & Hudson. :'( . But I see why you'd pick starbucks, probably bigger and more customers.

carrielynnsim	04 Aug 2003
Hi!!! I wanted to let ya know I owned a coffee shop type restaurant in Oklahoma, up until Feb. of this year. I need to say that manager was way out of line, as an owner he would have been fired! Not because he asked you to leave, but how he did it... you clearly stated there were other customers in the store at the time, a manager should know better than to treat any customer like that, I don't care if you were spitting on the table, he should have asked you to leave as the first course of action. At the restaurant there were people who came in & did their little thing we never asked them to leave unless another customer was bothered by it. And then we'd usually say something like you are more than welcome to stay, however you'll have to put the guitar down or play outside, thanks... can I get you a refill on your coffee?? HEY!! wait a sec, you said he just got in - maybe he didn't have his coffee yet! LOL Carrie

Teranar	04 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by punkangelgcm437 I feel so bad now ::cries:: Awww... don't cry, we all make mistakes... how many times have I mistaken a guy for a woman? We all do it... don't we? Maybe he hadn't gotten his coffee yet - maybe that was it. Anyway, I've asked every time since then if I could read - and avoided that place, so hopefully something like this will never happen again.

full deck	04 Aug 2003
This "manager" exhibits the sort of intolerant behaviour I have been noticing more and more in the U.S. (in the news) since having left there some time ago and especially since the New York tragedy in 2001. I wonder if it is just me or just the times . . .

Scarletpeaches	31 Aug 2003
Not exactly sure how to phrase this reply but I'll do my best. I've noticed in a few threads such as this, people have compared Jehovah's Witnesses to 'extremists' or 'bigots' and have said that they would not want them showing up at their door. Fair enough, everyone has to choose their own religious/spiritual path but if you don't agree with someone's beliefs there's always a polite way to say so. Not every JW is an extremist, just as not every 'non-JW' is a wonderful person. If it is unfair to condemn someone for their interest in tarot, surely it is also unfair to condemn someone, or stereotype them, purely on the basis of their religion? Tolerance works both ways.

catlin	01 Sep 2003
I also do public readings in small pub-like restaurants (the things we Germans call "Kneipe", they are not so formal as a restaurant) or tearooms. I usually ask permission before I install myself there when I want ppl attracked to readings but when I go there with a friend and do just an informal reading for her/him I don't ask before as this is no "official" thingy but the same as if a business person meets with someone else during lunchtime and takes out some papers to discuss. This manager has a personal problem with either himself or others and did act very rude. No good advertizment for starbuck coffee.

jlbvt	25 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Scarletpeaches Not exactly sure how to phrase this reply but I'll do my best. I've noticed in a few threads such as this, people have compared Jehovah's Witnesses to 'extremists' or 'bigots' and have said that they would not want them showing up at their door. Fair enough, everyone has to choose their own religious/spiritual path but if you don't agree with someone's beliefs there's always a polite way to say so. Not every JW is an extremist, just as not every 'non-JW' is a wonderful person. If it is unfair to condemn someone for their interest in tarot, surely it is also unfair to condemn someone, or stereotype them, purely on the basis of their religion? Tolerance works both ways. It's not that people mind them showing up. Most of the JW's that have come to my house (thay haven't recently) seem like great people, kind, polite, etc. The problem is that they are uninvited strangers who will take up as much time as thay can trying to convince you that their religious way is the right way. And if you show the slightest bit of interest in having any kind of discussion about religion, they will be BACK EVERY WEEK. I would rather not be bothered. There are also other churches that have come to visit, but the JW's were the most frequent ones.

Osher	25 Feb 2004
Am I mistaken, but wasn't it a Starbucks where they charged the survivors of 9/11 for water? My own view is that asking you to leave is fine, it is how it was done that is wrong.

Phoenyx*	25 Feb 2004
LOL, beautiful story Ter! It would have been embarrassing for me, but, it really goes to show you how some people are.

Phoenyx*	25 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae My opinion, and a cornerstone of my life: Never ask permission, ask forgiveness . Never give them a chance to say no. I find less corporate shops better, but if corporate shops are your only choice, try this. (an opinion) I don’t like to advertise (ask folks if they want readings), this can anger some managers who think you are threatening their business as opposed to seeing the symbiotic nature of it. Instead…I deal a couple cards into a non-spread and begin writing in my journal. And this is key (don’t ask why – but this s*** works). Don’t write about crap (“so here I sit at Star*ucks starving to death and trying to do a reading blah blah blah”) but write seriously. You have three or four cards in a non-spread…write about them. Write about their relationships. Why a non-spread? Because as soon as you do a real spread Joe Smith will want a real reading and you’re gonna have to scoop up your cards and…that spread will be gone… Umbrae, I love that idea!

Indigo Rose	25 Feb 2004
I agree with the comments so far, that the manager was extreme and inappropriate in his handling of this situation. I also agree that getting permission first is the best plan. Beyond that, I have a problem with Tarot readings being done in this manner. I think Tarot readings are very personal. When I did them at one of my former jobs(on breaks of course :) ) I found the most comfort in going into the break room or a private space because people would be too curious and try to invade the readings. People appreciate privacy because it allows them to talk freely. Starbucks or any other place that is that open does not allow for the kind of privacy that I believe is required. Also, I don't want to be offensive to people with my Tarot. It is something that I see as sacred and highly misunderstood. I don't want to cheapen its' value or give others reasons to stand against it. Just my two cents. Blessings, Indigo Rose

Teranar	26 Feb 2004
That manager also no longer works there, he got fired by his senior manager for being an @$$. I posted this thread a year ago and was actually rather suprised today to see its still kicking. :P I guess we all get our little suprises now and then. Its actually staffed with people I'm rather good friends with, as I work next to them, buy coffee off them all the time, and actually knew some of them in the past. But I still ask. Its generally a good idea. Suprised to see this thread kicking around, Teranar

Jypsie	26 Feb 2004
I guess it depends on what part of town you are in. The Starbucks where I work is in smack dab in the middle of our city's culture. All the interesting people come in, and they are wonderful! Most are students, there to study, or writers with their laptops. We even have a few guys who come on in at 6:30 am Sunday morning with fiddles and banjos and sit down in the corner and play for us, and customers love them. We don't pay them to do it, they just come because they love it and they stay for *hours* just playing away. Now, down the road in the richie neighborhood, Starbucks is a different thing altogether. People are snootier, not as fun to be around, very picky, etc. I have thought about sitting upstairs on my lunchbreaks and doing readings for people- we have a perfect conference table there. Actually, regarding the conference table, people never ask permission to use it for their business meetings, they just do it. I personally have witnessed the university parking authority handling their business within our business, and a magazine advertisment salesman making a pitch to a potential advertiser, doctors from UAB, one of the most prominent hospitals in the US, writing books, all at Starbucks. We even had aforementioned musicains record their CD in our cafe. People are always conducting their own businesses within ours. My point is, you shouldn't have to ask permission- no one else does. Just because your business in un-traditional. That store manager was way out of line and unless he was approached by an irritable customer, he had no business being so very rude to you. Ugh... people like that make me ill. AND he just lost your business. Funny, the Starbucks committment is to make people go home happy and tell a friend. Because they recognize that word gets around, you see! And see, you just told everybody on this board about a horrible experience you had, and as a result, that store manager has failed his promise to uphold the Starbucks committment and should be fired. The higher-ups are *THAT* serious about it. Ooooooh. I'm peeved. *big sigh*

Jypsie	26 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Teranar That manager also no longer works there, he got fired by his senior manager for being an @$$. I posted this thread a year ago and was actually rather suprised today to see its still kicking. :P I guess we all get our little suprises now and then. Its actually staffed with people I'm rather good friends with, as I work next to them, buy coffee off them all the time, and actually knew some of them in the past. But I still ask. Its generally a good idea. Suprised to see this thread kicking around, Teranar Whew, that makes me feel better. I didn't see this post before my rant, but everything still stands just as I said it. Glad to know you've made good friends there. =) Regulars are my favorites by far, the ones whose drinks I know by heart. Out of curiosity, what part of the country do you live in? That sometimes speaks volumes by itself!

miss_apples	26 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Le_Corsair buying coffee or other items at regular intervals, if not, then the manager had every right to ask you to leave, if not in such a brutish fashion. The permission thing mentioned by everyone else so far appears to be the right course of action. A similar thing happened at a hotel I worked at one time. A desk clerk who claimed to be a psychic, and used tarot cards, began doing readings for guests; I don't know if money changed hands. The manager, a born-again Christian Iranian, fired her for "practicing witchcraft." The same manager fired a girl he hired the previous day when she showed up for work in a miniskirt, calling her a "slut." Ignorant brutes exist everywhere. Hopefully there are fewer and fewer every year. Bob :THERM Firing people for reasons such as that is illegal under the discrimination laws. I wouldve sued him!

Shade	26 Feb 2004
Ok first off the guy was way out of line to handle the situation the way he did and that coffee shop is a lot better of now that he' gone. However Had I been the manager I would have had a little chat with you. I would have asked you to not approach the customers directly because this is soliciting and can make people feel uncomfortable. I would also have suggested that in order to be in the coffee shop you have to have at least a cup of coffee, they are a business after all. That may seem harsh but I've worked at a store where the same people came in all of the time to try and sell their own produts to my customers. I've read in coffee shops and bars before, usually just for fun, I just sit and do readings for myself until someone asks me if i can do readings and usually in payment I just have them buy my drink (tarot readings after 4 Mai Tai's area LOT of fun). A different strategy I've seen before is approaching a coffee shop, probably a small independent one, and asking if they would pay you to do free readinsg for their customers. A gentleman does free readings at a local bar one night a week and I believe the bar compensates him for his time. This gives the coffee shop a marketable advantage and it's a win-win sitution. Plus you would get paid whether people wanted readings that night or not.

laura_borealis	26 Feb 2004
The original story reminds me of when I could not get served at a restaurant, I surmise because I was wearing a large pentacle. There was much whispering among the staff, covert looks shot in my direction, and we couldn't even get water. Annoying at the time, but funny now! :laugh: If I were asked to leave a coffeehouse for reading cards I don't know how I'd react. I wouldn't be reading them for others because I just don't. For just having them out on the table -- I think I would have to play innocent and ask infuriating questions. I have a tiny mean streak when it comes to idiots... :D

Teranar	26 Feb 2004
A mean streak when it comes to idiots... hehe... Actually I AM in the richie part of town, the south part of Nashville, Tennessee. Unfortunately I am not one of those rich people, I live in a rather small house that's 60 years old, but because of the area people in the rest of town 'assume' I'm rich. Oh well. BUt I also have become good friends with the coffee shop regulars (there are about 6 guys who float around to the various coffee shops, one of whom was the guy in the forementioned story with the laptop) so if a situation like this ever comes up again I can count on them boycotting that 'bux. That and tarot is beginning to not look so nasty here, since a tarot reader named Enita has been appearing on local radio and doing readings for local celebs. hehe. -Teranar

Khatruman	27 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Teranar Ok, because of financial difficulties, I started going to coffee shops trying to read tarot to earn a little money. So I went to the local Starbucks, and went to a table, spread the cards out, and started asking people if they wanted to be read. I think it is here where the problem does lie, as others have alluded to. Starbucks, being a large corporation, is subject to larger issues than a local coffee shop. In our lawsuit-happy society, people will go after the big money whenever they get a chance. Therefore, larger corporations must be much more careful what they allow in their facilities. Your offers of tarot readings "to earn a little money" legally constitute a sale. Sales offered within the establishment become then the responsibility of the company. Because you performed and sold the readings within their facilities and they allowed you to do so, they are legally responsible for any consequences, including people who are "psychologically damaged by occult practices performed upon them" or if these practices violate their religious freedoms by being encouraged by Starbucks, or anything else they can dream up to make millions of dollars in lawsuits from the corporation. As others have said, asking permission from the facility is not only a polite practice, it alleviates any misunderstandings which can ripple outwards into legal messes. This, of course, in no way excuses the reaction of the manager and his public humiliation of you and his employees. In fact, it you are legally minded, I am sure there is a lawsuit that could be brought by his defamation of your character, if you were so inclined to follow the popular path. Just a joke, since you don't seem to be that type..:D

mysticali	27 Feb 2004
Fascinating to read all about this and frightening too - particularly laura_borealis' one about not being served by wearing a pentagram. i hadn't even given a thought to 'offending' in public with my cards but i will now. i did have an instance when coffeeing in a new (ish) friends house, i innocently asked if she had ever had her cards read when she started into a tirade of - evil/devil/satan etc etc. which i found quite shocking. She is quite deeply christian but isn't tolerance a christian belief? This same friend is one of the first - i have to say - who tries to inform about her beliefs on all her acquaintances - in a 'nice' way. Oh well...

laura_borealis	27 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mysticali i did have an instance when coffeeing in a new (ish) friends house, i innocently asked if she had ever had her cards read when she started into a tirade of - evil/devil/satan etc etc. which i found quite shocking. That is shocking... I wouldn't have known what to say or do. I just remembered reading for myself in the laundromat one day, and the attendant came over and asked me if tarot wasn't Satanic. Fortunately I had the Courtney Davis Celtic tarot that day, and showed her the crosses and Christian symbols on some of the cards. Then she opened up. Her granddaughter had wanted tarot cards for Christmas, which made my new "friend" worried. We talked a bit about the subject and I was able to lay some of her fears to rest. She left the conversation saying that she might get her granddaughter some Angel Oracle cards... it's a beginning, you know? Quote: She is quite deeply christian but isn't tolerance a christian belief? You would think, wouldn't you? But some folks just want to hang on to their assumptions and never question them.

Aure	27 Feb 2004
I agree that it is really annoying that there are still people accusing tarot readers of using evil witchcraft etc.! However, i think that you should always ask before you start doing readings for other customers in a café for example.

Imagemaker	27 Feb 2004
Quote: isn't tolerance a christian belief? As a person with (positive) Christian roots, knowing the general historical overview of the various denominations' behavior and intentions--I'd have to say, "No." (Not to offend or start any religious discussion.) Given the current debates in American media going on over marriage vs civil unions--I begin to think "Christian tolerance" is an oxymoron.

laura_borealis	27 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker As a person with (positive) Christian roots, knowing the general historical overview of the various denominations' behavior and intentions--I'd have to say, "No." (Not to offend or start any religious discussion.) Given the current debates in American media going on over marriage vs civil unions--I begin to think "Christian tolerance" is an oxymoron. Will we get in trouble for hijacking a thread? There are tolerant Christians. My oldest brother is a minister. He has worked to raise consciousness about racial issues, he performs same-sex marriages, and he goes to Native American rituals such as sweats. He did my wedding and included as much pagan symbolism as we wanted. I think the intolerant Christians are just louder and more visible than Christians like my brother (and may greatly outnumber them).

Teranar	28 Feb 2004
seeing as I thought this thread long dead, I don't care if its hijacked. Its ironic that in my part of the world the muslems here are far more tolerant of my pagan path than the christians (And Nashville has the largest kurdish population in the country! That's suprising actually.) But if I was more open about it I'm positive that I'd face a lot more prejudice. (Anyone remember the story about the girl named India who recieves constant harassment because of her religeon? That's my corner of the world.) But since they don't ask and I don't tell, no one seems to care. There is the occasional person who does ask, and when I kindly reply I don't want to talk about it, the drop it, and the few who HAVE persisted usually are very understanding. But those are the rare ones here. But the muslems here, their response is kewl! Or, to actually quote a person, "Cool, a white guy who's not christian. So is that why you don't skip school on all those christian holidays?" So why can't american christians be as tolerant? -Teranar

ol_crazy_Legs	29 Feb 2004
Wow. Yeah man what you did was Highly illegal. You where using there business to profit yourself. You need permision for that kinda thing. But the manager didnt have to be so rude. You didnt have negative intintions.

Charles Stein	29 Feb 2004
A story from long ago. In the summer of 1962 I had just graduated from high school and was traveling with a buddy across country. I had been studying tarot for a year or so and had just joined Builders of the Adytum whose temple I had visited earlier in the summer. My friend and I were returning to New York by way of the south and were camped in a state park somewhere in Missouri. I had a deck of Marseilles Tarot wrapped in a green cloth and stashed in pine wood box, and I was sitting at a picnic table quite innocently examining them, when a young boy, maybe twelve years old came over and asked me if I could read his fortune. Sure. Why not. I dug in. We were going at for about ten minutes when the guy that had taken our money and showed us our campsite came storming over red-faced and just about ready to have a stroke. "YOU PACK UP YO GYPSIE RAGS" he fulminated "WE'VE GOT LAWS IN THIS TOWN." Yessir! I packed 'em in a hurry. My friend and I took down our tent and got in the car to make our escape, when a deep voiced, calm, and sagacious state trooper stopped us at the exit. "Must be lotsa you fellers in the fortune telling business in these parts, ain't there." "I'm not in the fortune telling business," I said in my best New Yorkeese,"I'm just a student of the origins of playing cards." Right. I took out my Marseilles deck and showed him how the wands were really clubs, the cups, hearts. etc. "Well," he allowed, "You could use 'em for fortune tellin if you wanted to , couldn't ya?" I allowed that you could, and we hit the highway. Due North! Charles Stein

ol_crazy_Legs	01 Mar 2004
MAN! You musta hit some kind of hic area of Missouri. I Live in St.Louis and theres nobody like that here but there are some pretty "Hicked" out towns. I tend not to favor close minded ppl.

Teranar	01 Mar 2004
:O WOW. ... Laws against tarot/fortune telling, or being gypsylike? Either way... UGH! Disgusted with how people act, -Teranar

cartarum	03 Mar 2004
you will always get a reaction like that from some people. everyones experience of the tarot is different. all some people remember is the friend whose voice changed after reading those damn cards.....

tmgrl2	31 Oct 2004
I get a real kick out of telling people that I love the Tarot, that I study it and even read with The Tarot. The reactions are sometimes extreme ones, from those who think it's scarey and evil, to those who say, "Could I have a reading?" Our pharmacist's assistant last week, got wide-eyed when I told her I was going to be reading the Tarot when I retired. She said, "You have always been an idol for me...Now, I am really amazed!" I was floored. I'm just a regular customer who comes in to pick up my meds and have a chat. She wants a reading as soon as I am ready after I retire. Go figure. I gave our principal my flyer. She is also my friend. We worked together for several years as Principal and Assistant Prinicipal, but have worked together for 10 years. When we get out to lunch, we all blow off a little steam. She keeps shaking her head, though, when I mention Tarot. She had one very bad experience. I asked her if she read my flyer. She told me that it was lovely and she's still too scared to even think about getting another reading. I agree about public places. I would definitely ask permission before considering taking money in an establishment without the knowledge and approval of the owner. As I said, hair salon is a day-spa of sorts as well...They were thinking of the possibility of my offering short readings. I feel that when I am ready, if it's meant to be, it will happen.

Teranar	01 Nov 2004
I'm still suprised every time this tread floats back to life, pretty soon it'll be two years old. Since that experience I've learned the BEST places to try to read are little 24/7 cafes that are here and there. Computer groups like them for late night meets, poets like them for similar reasons, and the kinds of people that go to these places are the types I'd like to read for, so I seek them out. I tried a nightclub once. Never again. But for the time being the best places are chance meetings in odd places. I go to a park, talk to a random person, if it comes up I mention that I read, if they ask I do a reading, and sometimes they even give me money. (I never ask. I try to avoid asking for cash unless I don't want to do the reading for whatever reason.)

shelikes2read	01 Nov 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Teranar I'm still suprised every time this tread floats back to life, pretty soon it'll be two years old. Since that experience I've learned the BEST places to try to read are little 24/7 cafes that are here and there. Computer groups like them for late night meets, poets like them for similar reasons, and the kinds of people that go to these places are the types I'd like to read for, so I seek them out. I tried a nightclub once. Never again. But for the time being the best places are chance meetings in odd places. I go to a park, talk to a random person, if it comes up I mention that I read, if they ask I do a reading, and sometimes they even give me money. (I never ask. I try to avoid asking for cash unless I don't want to do the reading for whatever reason.) Hey, I like when old threads get revived -- I've only been on AT a few months, so it helps me see some goodies that were posted prior to my joining the forum. :) I wasn't surprised to read, a few pages into the thread, that the obnoxious manager was fired. Though he'd have the right to ask people to leave, or at least to not do readings in his shop, I think we're unanimous in believing that he did a horrendous job of handling the situation. He was miles out of line, both in the way he treated you and the way he behaved toward his employees. Anyone whose people skills are that deficient shouldn't be managing a business. On the other hand... what interesting ideas people have posted here about how to quietly attract people who are interested in having a reading done. :) I might have to find a way to employ some of those suggestions.

Imagemaker	01 Nov 2004
Quote: Laws against tarot/fortune telling, or being gypsylike? They seem to go together--I'm doing research on gypsies and especally pre-1980, the active hatred of gypsies and fortunetelling was part of small-town policing. Scary!

Ace	01 Nov 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Teranar I tried a nightclub once. Never again. LOL! one of the places I worked Halloween weekend was a short stint at the Cubby Bear, a famous bar in Chicago (across from Wrigley field). I think I know what you are going to say, but I have to ask: What happened that you say Never again?

Teranar	02 Nov 2004
I know Kung Fu and Ninjitsu. I had to use it. A reading started a chain of events that allowed a woman to catch her cheating boyfriend, and the boyfriend, very drunk and high on ecxtasy, decided his getting caught was my fault. Like I said, never again.

shelikes2read	02 Nov 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Teranar I know Kung Fu and Ninjitsu. I had to use it. A reading started a chain of events that allowed a woman to catch her cheating boyfriend, and the boyfriend, very drunk and high on ecxtasy, decided his getting caught was my fault. Like I said, never again. Yikes! Note to self: never perform readings that might bring about an encounter with people who've chemically enhanced their personality. :eek: I don't blame you for swearing off reading at nightclubs.

Shade	02 Nov 2004
Oh but clubs are great for tarot readings, people take care of all of your drinks which the government can't tax you on. It's a win-win.

carly	07 Nov 2004
i'm kina jealous of u guys (and gals) and your coffee shops. Where I live it's pretty basic, and although there's loads of shops and stuff here (I once met a little girl who said her nan told her there weren't moterways in scotland, I was like huh???), all the coffee shops/tea rooms are primarily made up of people aged 65+, who around here usually aren't so open minded... A note on tolerant Christians: Nobody's perfect :D

tmgrl2	07 Nov 2004
carly wrote: i'm kina jealous of u guys (and gals) and your coffee shops. Where I live it's pretty basic, and although there's loads of shops and stuff here (I once met a little girl who said her nan told her there weren't moterways in scotland, I was like huh???), all the coffee shops/tea rooms are primarily made up of people aged 65+, who around here usually aren't so open minded... A note on tolerant Christians: Nobody's perfect :D LOL...I'm only 62 and I don't think that by 65 I will be close-minded....Actually, I find that many of my "peers" are open-minded about the fact that I read Tarot. I find that people of all ages in all walks of life all around the world are closed-minded and open-minded. It just depends. I was surprised in my school setting at how many people were open to the fact that I read Tarot. Guess we just have to take the risks that no matter where we go, we will encounter people of varying levels of acceptance or understanding re any beliefs individuals hold. terri

carly	07 Nov 2004
tmgrl2 sorry, no offence meant (if any taken), it's just around here there aren't many people that I know that would be open minded. I'm totally not restictiong that to over-anyage, though, because I know some people my age that would just be, "That's so stupid" or even go as far to call it evil. Even some of my friends had this reaction when I told them about I Ching (these dont know that I'm doing tarot now :)). I also know some v cool age-is-but-a-number's. Sorry if my last post seemed kina discrimanatory (sp?). Carly

tmgrl2	07 Nov 2004
No offense taken.... I love to jump to the defense of seniors ....or AARP's as we affectionately call ourselves...now that I AM ONE! It's weird, but I still feel so young in mind and spirit...not that 62 is old. You are right, carly. I have many friends my age who are quite closed to many different beliefs and also many young people I work with who feel Tarot is "evil" even. So, I agree, it isn't an age thing. There are very wise and open people of all ages and some very young and "closed-minded" young people. What really surprises me is that sometimes I think I know someone...either my age group or not and then am shocked at a response I get about a topic, not just necessarily about Tarot. Blessings, terri

NightWing	30 Nov 2004
I just finished reading the entire thread, and found it both informative and entertaining. I'm not surprised that the original event (being kicked out with much verbal abuse all around) happened at a Starbucks Coffee Shop. Their management reputation has been sagging in my part of the world. So much so that some people have taken to making jokes about them. A popular line about Starbucks is that if you want to see what the world would be like if the other side had won World War II, just drop in there. Its all fake smiles, ruthless efficiency, and $17.95 lattes! I'd stick to small, independently owned coffee shops, and get permission to read tarot, myself. Cheers.

souljourney	30 Nov 2004
Just this weekend I went to a trendy part of our town with a friend. I went to the New Age bookstore and purchased The Gilded Tarot. So after all that hard shopping we needed a coffee. Got our coffee, sat down, opened up the box. We oooohed and aaaaahed at the cards, I was just giving a quick once over to see what meaning I could detect without looking at the book, etc. (I am BRAND new to tarot... don't know the meanings of the cards at all). We looked at the deck for probably a good 30-45 min. A female customer was leaving and dropped a note at our table on her way out. The note said... "I just wanted to tell you that those cards LIE. They're just a random bunch of cards made to distract you from the truth. If you really want to know the truth about yourself, try the Bible. It will tell you the truth. Honestly, the Lord loves you, those cards don't." I was kinda speechless. Um, whatever. Nothing made of paper loves me...cards or a book. And IMHO the cards help me to know myself instead of telling what I should think, etc. Rather they will once I know what I'm doing with them. I was just sooo surprised. At least she wasn't confrontational or anything.

Imagemaker	30 Nov 2004
Aagh, what a ugly accompaniment to your first exploration of the Gilded! At least, as you say, she just handed you a note. I get rabid about evangelists who want to impose their "I'll save you" message on others. Let not such manipulators shadow your fun with the Gilded.

souljourney	30 Nov 2004
Youknow what I kind of took with me as far as meaning. I guess the Gilded deck must be so awesome and powerful to attract that sort of reaction without me knowing what I was doing. Hey...gotta look at the positive, right? I think that's true really to a degree for me. I have never really connected with very many decks when I've gone to the stores with friends. Always been facinated, but just didn't feel I had the time to devote to learning it. Well when I saw the Gilded...I knew I HAD to have it. Ah, that Gemini impulsiveness sometimes. So now I'm making the time.

Imagemaker	30 Nov 2004
I feel the same way about it--it's radiant! I like your perspective--its light couldn't be hidden under a bushel :)

Ace	30 Nov 2004
souljourney wrote: A female customer was leaving and dropped a note at our table on her way out. The note said... "I just wanted to tell you that those cards LIE. They're just a random bunch of cards made to distract you from the truth. If you really want to know the truth about yourself, try the Bible. It will tell you the truth. Honestly, the Lord loves you, those cards don't." I was kinda speechless. Um, whatever. Nothing made of paper loves me...cards or a book. And IMHO the cards help me to know myself instead of telling what I should think, etc. Rather they will once I know what I'm doing with them. I was just sooo surprised. At least she wasn't confrontational or anything. I am sorry, SJ, that you had such an experience. I worked a college (actually I do this place twice a year for the last several years!) and one time a lady came up and stuck her head right between me and the querent I had sitting there and said, "I just want to tell you that this lady is lying to you and these cards are lying too. This is all a lie, don't believe it." I just pasted on a big smile and told her to have a nice day. "In the name of Jesus Christ I refute you!" she said, and stalked off. I was shaken, it took a minute to get back to reading. Who is telling people that they should do that? and that tarot cards LIE?

MyTquinn	30 Nov 2004
I have to jump in here on a couple of things first of all CatBoxer I loved your comments!!!! tongue in cheek and all..... And as for SJ and the Gilded Tarot !!! Omygosh!!!! The first time I laid eyes on it I knew I had to have it. It seemed like an eternity from March to October -- but I love the images on the cards and the readings I get are $$$$$ everytime --- I have heard all kinds of things about "The Evils of Tarot and the Occult" and "Jesus loves me"....but he hates anyone who's different? I just can't even muster feelings of ambivilance anymore.... Has anyone ever bother to look at the metaphyscial section of your local bookstore lately???? Usually pretty crowded.... Tarot isn't evil, people can be, but not a piece of paper.

Mesara	30 Nov 2004
Ace wrote: I am sorry, SJ, that you had such an experience. I worked a college (actually I do this place twice a year for the last several years!) and one time a lady came up and stuck her head right between me and the querent I had sitting there and said, "I just want to tell you that this lady is lying to you and these cards are lying too. This is all a lie, don't believe it." I just pasted on a big smile and told her to have a nice day. "In the name of Jesus Christ I refute you!" she said, and stalked off. I was shaken, it took a minute to get back to reading. Who is telling people that they should do that? and that tarot cards LIE? *Shudders*

Teranar	30 Nov 2004
At least its universal that people get worked up over nothing, and use Jesus to scream hate (Which ironically would have upset Jesus) and not just here in the bible belt. Hoping the evangelists leave you all alone, -Teranar

huredriel	30 Nov 2004
Well all I can say to the original thread, is pity the poor *******, oops sorry, I meant people. They're obviously narrow, closed-minded people who probably don't the meaning of true happiness, and it's their loss!!! My opinion (I have lots of them :) ) is that you should live and let live. Treat people as you wish to be treated and what comes around goes around. All very cliched I know, but just think, one day they will reap what they sow ha ha. OK, so get permission if needs be and if it's not given, you will find somewhere else (and take all their regular customers with you).

mac22	30 Nov 2004
Ace wrote: I am sorry, SJ, that you had such an experience. I worked a college (actually I do this place twice a year for the last several years!) and one time a lady came up and stuck her head right between me and the querent I had sitting there and said, "I just want to tell you that this lady is lying to you and these cards are lying too. This is all a lie, don't believe it." I just pasted on a big smile and told her to have a nice day. "In the name of Jesus Christ I refute you!" she said, and stalked off. I was shaken, it took a minute to get back to reading. Who is telling people that they should do that? and that tarot cards LIE? I suspect it is the fundie preachers at the church they attend.

NightWing	01 Dec 2004
I suppose all kinds of rude people (and worse) hide behind religion. I've met some very good people who claim to be that way because of religious faith. Tentatively, I conclude there is a difference between mere religion, and actual faith. It is hard for me to imagine Jesus approving of either the cowardly and rude (like with the note), or the pointlessly rude (like the barging in & interruption), since he was never either. Given that there are believing Christians who read tarot, I hardly think the rude & pointless types should be taken as representative of the religion. There are extremists of every religious persuasion. By definition, they are in the minority. Try not to sweat it. "Have a good day" is probably the best response. Cheers!

SunChariot	03 Dec 2004
NightWing wrote: I suppose all kinds of rude people (and worse) hide behind religion. I've met some very good people who claim to be that way because of religious faith. Tentatively, I conclude there is a difference between mere religion, and actual faith. It is hard for me to imagine Jesus approving of either the cowardly and rude (like with the note), or the pointlessly rude (like the barging in & interruption), since he was never either. Given that there are believing Christians who read tarot, I hardly think the rude & pointless types should be taken as representative of the religion. There are extremists of every religious persuasion. By definition, they are in the minority. Try not to sweat it. "Have a good day" is probably the best response. Cheers! Loved this NightWing. All religions teach us to love everyone as we love everyone, to try and understand, walk a mile in the other person's shoes. How does a religion that teaches us to love one another lead to so much hatred? It just really makes no sense. Maybe being religious starts in your heart and these people are not as religious as they think. Bar

CloeCat	12 Dec 2004
Well I was given permission to read at a Cafe and the 2nd time I went to do readings some customer call the cops to see if I had a business licence. The cops call the owner and she had me leave within 10 minutes. The funny thing is I was asking for donations no set fee. I do not think I needed a BL. Now I'm in Salt Lake area Utah, this is mormonvile so..... Confusion, CloeCat

CloeCat	12 Dec 2004
I guess a P.S. I do readings at a diffrent cafe now, very new agey and veggie food I have had no problems here. Manny purrs, CloeCat

L'Etoile	12 Dec 2004
Ahh...the ignorant...

rainwolf	29 Jan 2005
mystiquemoonlight wrote: Funny how sitting in a coffee shop doing readings for those who may ask is found to be more offensive than say someone knocking on your front door pushing their misquoted sections from a religious text. ahahaha-i know what you mean. It sucks how majority stampedes the minority (usually the ones that are peaceful) I always thought that coffee shops were locations of generally more open minded people, but occasionally the closed minded need their caffeine fix too i guess. I heard you didnt buy something when you went in...thats the first thing i do. If i was a manager, i would think that you were using my business to your advantage...i can understand being upset, but not psycho ;) Better luck next time!

tarotbear	30 Jan 2005
souljourney wrote: A female customer was leaving and dropped a note at our table on her way out. The note said... "I just wanted to tell you that those cards LIE. They're just a random bunch of cards made to distract you from the truth. If you really want to know the truth about yourself, try the Bible. It will tell you the truth. Honestly, the Lord loves you, those cards don't." Nothing quite as drastic happened to me - but once I was reading cards for several people at the local Howard johnson's restaurant, and one of the regulars came over to the table where I was, klnowing full well what we were doing and INTERRUPTED me while I was reading to shout 'You're going to go straight to hell! I do still believe he thought he was 'making a joke.' You never saw anyone's 'Italian' come up so strongly as mine did; I slammed my hand down on the table, jumped up with my nose a half-inch from his and in the nastiest loud voice shouted in his face "DON'T YOU EVER ****ING INTERRUPT ME EVER AGAIN!" He realized very quickly that I was NOT the person to have a confrontation with and quickly got the hell out of my sight for the rest of the night.

HudsonGray	30 Jan 2005
It's amazing how some people figure their morality gives them justification to butt into other people's private lives in public places.

RedMaple	30 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: Nothing quite as drastic happened to me - but once I was reading cards for several people at the local Howard johnson's restaurant, and one of the regulars came over to the table where I was, klnowing full well what we were doing and INTERRUPTED me while I was reading to shout 'You're going to go straight to hell! I do still believe he thought he was 'making a joke.' You never saw anyone's 'Italian' come up so strongly as mine did; I slammed my hand down on the table, jumped up with my nose a half-inch from his and in the nastiest loud voice shouted in his face "DON'T YOU EVER ****ING INTERRUPT ME EVER AGAIN!" He realized very quickly that I was NOT the person to have a confrontation with and quickly got the hell out of my sight for the rest of the night. I love your diplomacy! ROTFL Seriously, I'm all for facing up to people who have the nerve to butt into our lives in such rude ways. Thanks for the inspiration.

gargoyle_guarded	30 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: Nothing quite as drastic happened to me - but once I was reading cards for several people at the local Howard johnson's restaurant, and one of the regulars came over to the table where I was, klnowing full well what we were doing and INTERRUPTED me while I was reading to shout 'You're going to go straight to hell! I do still believe he thought he was 'making a joke.' You never saw anyone's 'Italian' come up so strongly as mine did; I slammed my hand down on the table, jumped up with my nose a half-inch from his and in the nastiest loud voice shouted in his face "DON'T YOU EVER ****ING INTERRUPT ME EVER AGAIN!" He realized very quickly that I was NOT the person to have a confrontation with and quickly got the hell out of my sight for the rest of the night. I love it!!! Thanks for sharing your experience - it cracks me up!

tao51	30 Jan 2005
Ignorance can be so funny! Starbuck's is off my list. I have spread my cards in several coffee shops. If someone asked me what I was doing. I would reply playing cards. I think this was way too funny!--Tao

The Kicked out of a coffee shop thread was originally posted on 01 Aug 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.