Psychic Powers, Intuition or Common Sense - How Genuine Are We?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	02 Aug 2003
Some people are genuinely psychic and have the capacity for startling understanding and predictions. They just “know” things. Others are intuitive and have the capacity to “put things together” in such a way that it sounds as though they are psychic. Put people with these gifts together with others who may be vulnerable and have a need to know, and what do you get? Let’s discuss this dynamic a little. I’ll use myself as an example. I am middle aged, highly educated and with a lot of life experience. I have a lot of work experience in a broad variety of human services. I think I am intelligent and empathetic. I’ve done a lot of HR and drug and alcohol related counselling. If you walk into my office, I’m going to a lot about you almost immediately from the way you dress, your physique, how you care for yourself, your body language. I can know a lot about from the first few sentences you offer. If I know just a few other facts about you I can put together a fairly good "idea" of you. I can ask a few simple questions that elicit responses from you that tell me even more. I am an expert at getting people to talk about themselves. I am really interested and people tell me things naturally. I am gentle and articulate and I can rephrase things people tell me in such a way that they believe I am offering them am amazing insight. In reality I may simply be reflecting a version of what they have already told me back to them. I am not being egotistical in saying these things. I do like people and it is my job to work with them, to assist them and to get their co-operation. When I sit down for face to face readings with anyone but my partner, I can get them to almost do the reading themselves. And I can quickly synthesize this information, add something from my own knowledge of the cards, and offer a very credible and articulate “reading” back to them. People respond to someone who is interested in them, and they are vulnerable. They can walk away from me convinced they have had a very good reading, a psychic experience, when they have not. They have simply had an interaction with someone who may care about them and has empathy and good interpersonal and communication skills and who now knows a little bit about the tarot. Sometimes I have been tempted to take a huge risk and bring an edge to my reading that may not be usual. Perhaps those inclinations, if I followed them, would make me genuinely psychic? If they were correct that is :) How many of you are like me? How many of us think we have genuine psychic skills when we may simply be as I have described? Am I a little fraudulent to call myself a Tarot reader? Now, put all of us together. We are dealing with magic, the unknown and other fascinating things. We are supportive, mostly intelligent, sometimes witty, often impassioned. We mostly like being together and we encourage and reinforce each other’s beliefs. Sometimes we challenge each other a little, sometimes we fight about style and difference and the correct line. But we genuinely share common beliefs and values about the tarot and the other esoteric subjects here at Aeclectic. Do we challenge each other enough? Are we in danger of submitting to group think? Are there ways we could be a little more rigorous about validating what we do? Is there even a need to do this?

lawguy51	02 Aug 2003
There's a very simple answer to your situation and it comes from Mary Greer. I just attended a conference where she spoke about her approach to readings which is interactive. When she is at a psychic fair, the first thing she does is tell the prospective client that she is not psychic, that she is merely a midwife to the soul, and that if the person wants a psychic reading, they should go elsewhere. She doesn't try to guess, she doesn't try to know things, she just goes card by card and has a discussion with the person and allows the person to tell their own story. It sounds a lot like what you are doing. All you have to add is the disclaimer at the start and you really are in no danger of misrepresenting yourself. Here are some of Mary Greer's dos and don'ts for interactive readings: 1. You don't have to fix anything or anybody-the client will come up with their own solutions. 2. Symbols don't resolves situations, but point to a meaning of a situation. 3. Don't feel you absolutley have to answer the question. 4. Listen to the client. Everything they say is relevant. 5. Some times the cards can be literal. 6. Don't insist on your interpretation. Let the client be right, go along with them and let them make the switch later, so that you are initially wrong and they are right. 7. If you get an idea out of the blue but you think it might be wrong, bring it out into the open. Then you can let go of the idea and that gets rid of the 'psychic' thought. 8. Use the words that the client uses to describe things. 9. Don't overlook a card that doesn't make sense. It usually has the most meaning. Obvious cards are not as revealing. I guess the point is, that chances are, we can all 'read' people fairly well, given our common interest in Tarot and our inquisitive minds. In any reading, we are part of the process, influencing events, molding and modifying the situation, innocently manipulating the reading, if only with an "ahhhh" when a certain card comes out. As long as you're completely upfront with the person as to what the process is all about, I don't think you have reason to lose any sleep over your observational abilities. Lawguy51

Elle	02 Aug 2003
I agree with the above postings. I think readings revolve around universal concerns; reading the subconscious; and letting others tell their story and pull it together for themselves. It always works this way. The client finds it therapeutic to have one's feelings or beliefs validated. It is always mindblowing when something pops out of the cards that is completely unexpected and "psychic" - its what keeps me hooked.

Dark Inquisitor	02 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Sometimes I have been tempted to take a huge risk and bring an edge to my reading that may not be usual. Perhaps those inclinations, if I followed them, would make me genuinely psychic? If they were correct that is :) How many of you are like me? How many of us think we have genuine psychic skills when we may simply be as I have described? Am I a little fraudulent to call myself a Tarot reader? Are there ways we could be a little more rigorous about validating what we do? [/b] Try doing readings over the internet for people you don't know & have no information about, except maybe name & location.( Any bit of general ID information will do.) I am not talking about getting in a chatroom & interacting with the person. Just do the reading on your own time without any input from them. See what happens. Tarotphelia

Moongold	02 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by lawguy51 When she is at a psychic fair, the first thing she does is tell the prospective client that she is not psychic, that she is merely a midwife to the soul, and that if the person wants a psychic reading, they should go elsewhere. She doesn't try to guess, she doesn't try to know things, she just goes card by card and has a discussion with the person and allows the person to tell their own story. This is excellent of course. I would regard the approach you have outlined as a combination of the "Therapeutic" and "Analytic" methods Mary describes in Tarot Mirrors . She also refers to the "Psychic" method where Readers make use of auras, intuition, cues from the sub-conscious and so on. I wonder whether Querents are so familiar with the meanings Mary uses however. In reading, I think it would be fairly important to be sure that Querents understood where you were coming from, how you see yourself and what approach you use. Yes I do have my moments of doubt. When I honestly assess my Tarot talents I think would belong in the "not-psychic" groups. I raised the question because I think it is an important one, not just applicable to me. The question of vulnerable people being particularly susceptible to believing that we have special gifts, whereas we may simply be as I described, is one of the most common grounds for criticism of the Tarot and its readers. I think this issue is relevant to everyone,and particularly those who do claim psychic powers. How we see ourselves and how others see us and what they attribute to us is quite significant, I think. And what of internet readings? What validation do we look for when we do readings in the Reading Exchange for example? Are Querents interested in accuracy or empathy, both or something else? It can be very seductive when some addresses a reading to you in an engaging and very personal way when you are feeling perhaps fragile and uncertain. Of course there may be a temptation to give warm and fuzzy feedback then. For myself, when I do future Reading Exchange readings I am going to ask for quite specific feedback as to accuracy and other things. I'm still just thinking about this. It is important for integrity. Mind you, after this I may not get anyone else to accept a reading from me :D. I am wondering whether it might be helpful to have some guidelines for giving feed back in the exchange but I suspect many would see that as quite prescriptive.

firemaiden	02 Aug 2003
Thanks for sharing that with us, Lawguy51! Moongold, this is a wonderful question, I have been pondering these questions for a while. "Intuition" is a word that is bandied about quite a bit on this forum and else where. I was thinking of starting a thread, asking " what is intuition?" but was too scared to make people mad. This is a bit of an aside, but my "intuitive sense" tells me that inuition is logic, however, which has operated faster than the paying-attention mind can keep up with. Often I refer to an experience I once had as an example of this: in eighth grade we had a game in Albegra, a kind of baseball. You advanced to the next base when you got the answer right. I was dismal at Algebra at that time, I was too young, but I'll never forget, a problem was set up, a long and complicated problem with many variables. The problem didn't make much sense to my paying-attention mind, but I understood all of a sudden that the answer was "2". I could never have explained how the answer came to me as "2" but I knew it was right and it was. From then on, my motto became, " when in doubt, say two"

Astra	03 Aug 2003
Moongold, I dunno about you, but one of the reasons I don't do a lot of "general" readings any more is because I found out that they get in the way of actually working on the psychic level. It's disconcerting to come up with information there was no way I could have gotten directly, but infinitely more satisfying than not being sure whether I was reading the cards or just the people. It's also much harder work, in terms of energy expended, so the mind has this tendency, if you let it, to work with whatever's simpler to get at. In addition, it's not as likely to always produce a viable reading - some of the stuff comes in immediately but takes days or weeks to make sense of, and the farther it is from my own experience, the longer it takes before it verbalizes in any kind of coherent form. If I were doing readings professionally, I know that I'd have to fill in with more standard impressions in order to keep any kind of regular schedule. (Um, in "more standard" I'm also including the psychic area, but areas where with a very few bits of information I feel comfortable filling in the blanks.)

punkangelgcm437	03 Aug 2003
Hi there hun. I think you have the gift of intuition...and being naturally friendly. There are just some people in the world who you meet who you just wanna talk to. I met one today (salesguy...and OMG he was so CUTE..but I'll move on.). Some people just have that natural friendlyness....the warm, welcoming smile or whatever. But intuition seems to play a big role here too. I have it with some people (especially when I know them...Mom, Mary, Eva, Dad, ect). I can tell that just because a card has a common meaning..it can mean something else. The fear of thinking as a group and not thinking as an individual. It's real...and I think everyone can be influential. But I don't think anyone here is trying to convince everyone what they do is right. I don't think anything of the sort is going on. I know that people might say it's bad not to keep your decks in scarves/silk...but I dont. Yet, nothing bad has happened to me yet. (Even tho I do want some...but thats not my point :joke: ). As for validation...I dont think I need any. I knwo what I'm doing is legal, moral, and isn't gonna send me to hell or anything..thus I have no problems. Honestly, I dont care what other people think, and it took me a long time to get there. I couldn't care less about what most people think of me. The only people whos' opinons matter are those of my family & friends. I figure, if people have issues with me, it's their own problem. And I think to do tarot or anything else unpopular in high school....you almost HAVE to think that way. Being in high school, you just learn to grow that thicker skin and not care what the preps/snobs say. And I've gotten to the point that usually I just dont care...it ticks me off momentarily (remember...I'm half fire)...but then I blow it off and move on with my day. And I think everyone needs to think that way....not care what other people think about them and their hobby/passion/love/side-job. But why should we have to validate what we do? We read cards...we try and help people and help them along their path of life. I never claim to hold all of lifes' anwsers in the palm of my hands, I never claim that I'm 100% right. But I do tell them that what I say usually holds some truth. I think I'm valid enough. If people don't think I'm valid/true/real/whatever word they choose...then maybe they shouldn't get a reading from me. Yuh know what I mean? Firemaiden...you bring up a great question. What is intuition?? I'm gonna try and put into my terms....since I can't anwser all of lifes' questions. I think intuition is just a gut feeling...something that you know is right/wrong/what you gotta do/ect. Kinda like...sometimes I just KNOW someone is gonna call me. Not becuz I want him too (we all know how ex boyfriends are)...but becuz I know. Turns out next day the phone rings and guess who it is. But...I think intuition is something unexplainable (or at least I cant explain it). Something I think everyone can have if they just tried to tap into it. BUT unfortunatly...I dont have Algebra intuition...or I'd be getting A's in there instead of B's. ** Sorry about the fireness up there...but hey I'm 15, female, am half fire, and feel the need to talk. That's just what happens LOL. :joke: ** Edited:cuz my post was kissin me...ahh!!!

Moongold	03 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by punkangelgcm437 The fear of thinking as a group and not thinking as an individual. It's real...and I think everyone can be influential. But I don't think anyone here is trying to convince everyone what they do is right. I don't think anything of the sort is going on. As for validation...I dont think I need any. I knwo what I'm doing is legal, moral, and isn't gonna send me to hell or anything..thus I have no problems. Honestly, I dont care what other people think, and it took me a long time to get there. I couldn't care less about what most people think of me. But why should we have to validate what we do? We read cards...we try and help people and help them along their path of life. I never claim to hold all of lifes' anwsers in the palm of my hands, I never claim that I'm 100% right. But I do tell them that what I say usually holds some truth. I think I'm valid enough. If people don't think I'm valid/true/real/whatever word they choose...then maybe they shouldn't get a reading from me. Yuh know what I mean? **Sorry about the fireness up there...but hey I'm 15, female, am half fire, and feel the need to talk. That's just what happens LOL. :joke:** Hi Sarah, I agree with you.........people aren't told to think one way or another here. But when you mix with people who have the same belief systems it's easy to take things for granted and wiz along unquestioningly. And it is easy to make assumptions which become more than that. How many of us would just use the words "psychic" and "intuition" casually without realy thinking about what they mean or clarifying with others that they mean the same thing in a conversation? In relatively small groups it is easy to develop a ghetto mentality. I'm not saying that we have that......just that we need to be vigilant or we can go that way. It's a good idea for us to challenge ourselves all the time. I think we do that to some extent, and am partly asking a rhetorical question to keep it on the agenda. With regard to validation, I think we all need to do it. I'm not thinking of justification. By validation I mean just verifying that my readings have substance and are not entirely fanciful. I owe that to myself, to a Querent and to the integrity of Tarot. That is why we ask for feed back. You do not have to apologise for disagreeing with me. That kind of critique is exactly the kind of thinking it is good to see. And also Sarah, my chart is ablaze with fire too :D

punkangelgcm437	03 Aug 2003
Moongold.. My firey sista for life!! Or maybe more motherly. Us firey girls gotta stick together. :) Sorry for the post kising you...it was supposed to be a joke thing...but it turned into a kissing thang...aahh I'm so bad at that. Rhetorical questions..ah yes. I'm so good at asking them, yet so bad at anwsering them when they're not supposed to be. :-\ . But you do have some points...being around people who feel much like you do can make yuh think there are no questions. I mean, there are a ton of people in the world and there are probably a ton of different 'definitions' that intuition & psychic go by. People causually use the term. Like...lets say my cell phoen rings (even tho I dunt have it anymore ::cries:: :(). And my mom says "Its XXXX" and I look and it's "XXXX". I'd be like..."Dude, mom, you're psychic". Even tho she really isn't (well...I dont think she is...she's just a Mom. Thats kinda what they do), I'd end up sayin somethin like that. But I'm not sure if intuition is used so casually...I'll have to watch myself more I guess. Challenging ourselves as a whole & as an individual is important...yes I agree with you there. Where would we go if we didn't? None of us would learn anything new...there would be limited info and once you soaked all that up...it's like over. But yeah...im anwsering a Rhetorical question again. Oops. I've never recieved a reading from you....but I'm sure yours are great. I know cuz I've read a few (am I the only one who reads other peoples readings in the exchange? Is that wrong??). But, I think people in general want some validation that what you are providing is quality. I see where you'd wanna please with that. I mean...you wouldnt buy a car from some company you didn't know right? I wouldnt...and I can't even drive by myself yet. And in my opinon, I think good feedback (telling if Im right or wrong)...is the best return of favor. Thats why I try & provide awesome feedback...cuz I know it's important. And it makes you a better reader. Even in my short time here, the feedback people have given me is wonderful. You took out the rocket joke...there went mine. Oh well. LOL. Hun, apologizing for disagreeing is what Libras do. Aviod fighting at all costs. Wish my Aries moon would show thru right now grr. LOL. But you eyes are not ancient!!! **Did I even say anything worthwhile in this post...gosh. I swear, sometimes my hands move but I dont ever say anything. LOL. get it...typing. Yeah I know it's a bad joke ::the tomatoes start fly at me::. There goes comedian off the future career list. :laugh: ** Edited to fix my messed up smilies and such

Moongold	03 Aug 2003
WOW Sarah, Are you typing psychically???? Channelling maybe? I thought you'd disappeared for the night and came back to edit my post, deleting the reference to tired eyes. Aren't you all supposed to be asleep over there? Can't a girl get away with a surreptitious edit with out being caught in the act? Cheers :D PS It's worth spending some time on the learning the Smilies, isn't it?

Kiama	03 Aug 2003
If I do have some psychic ability, I do not use it in my readings. And I make sure the querent knows it too: I do not want to be seen as a psychic, simply because I cannot call myself one. When I read Tarot, I use my common sense, empathy, the infomration I've been given, and intuition to link the cards to the querent's question. I don't think that if we do not use psychic powers that we are not real Tarot readers or we are not genuine: Tarot for me does not preclude psychic ability. It simply precludes some understanding of Tarot. :D Kiama Edited to add: I must explain that I do not do readings where I simple 'predict' what will happen to somebody, because I am not psychically inclined. Most of my readings are advisory readings, where the querent has a problem and needs somebody to help them look at the problem in order to find the solution. So, for me using common sense is essential to the reading.

Alex	03 Aug 2003
Moongold No, we don't challenge each other enough. Some people here are not used to challenge their own beliefs, much less have their beliefs challenged. There are real "psychics", and there are the other people, and I'm amongst the last group. I'm a scientist and my own "belief system" excludes such "untestable theories" as having psychic powers... but I also grew up with my grandmother who would call us in the middle of the night to say that such and such had just died_ and the "real news" would come a couple days latter. Some people know, that's all I can tell you. There are a few in this forum that are like that, if you observe very closely, you will know, who they are. There are also the ones who think they know, and if you pay attention, you will also know who they are. In a way, it's as clear as water. And it's a question of belief too, if I am being clear. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Do we challenge each other enough? Are we in danger of submitting to group think? Are there ways we could be a little more rigorous about validating what we do? Is there even a need to do this?

Minderwiz	03 Aug 2003
I have always taken the view, as expressed by Shakespeare throught the character of Hamlet 'there are more things in heaven and earth than...than are dreamt of in (your) philosophy'. I am also a trained (social) scientist and a natural sceptic, however I have had enough experiences myself and talked to enough people to accept the possibility that science is not the only vehicle through which we acquire knowledge. I also recognise that science is inherently limited to the extend that it rests on testable hypotheses. No testable hypothesis can ever indicate the existence of God - whos is by definition beyond nature. However at a more mundane level no testable hypothesis can provide evidence that my wife does (or does not) love me. It can only test observable behaviour. This is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater but to recognise that there is more to existence than science shows. A well known TV Medium of my acquaintance claims that we all have psychic ability, clearly it is difficult, if not impossible to prove that. Some of the contributors to this thread might be interested in Archie Roy's book 'The Archives of the Mind'. Roy is a scientist - Professor of Astronomy at Glasgow University. He is also a leading member of the Scottish Society for Psychical Research. The evidence he puts forward for genuine psychic powers and for reincarnation are compelling.

Alissa	03 Aug 2003
When I read palms, sometimes I see things and say things that I have no way of knowing, but are corroborated as true. When I meditate, and pray, I see things, and *hear* things often ... and later, I discover they are also true. Psychic, intuition ... I don't know what you want to call these things I do -- but in the Tantra training I've been doing, I've learned that we each have 10 senses. The five we are used to using for the material world. And the five "second" senses that are for the immaterial world. I think if more people learned to use 10 senses than 5, we would all be on the same playing ground. But, it takes a lot of work to develop all 10, and not everyone in this life has the inclination to pursue such things. And for others it just comes ... natural. (Keeping it "natural" ... unquestioned, unharrassed by the rational mind, unencumbered ... is very tricky though).

Alex	03 Aug 2003
Would you then agree with me that scientists often reject certain phenomena not because they are not liable to a scientific test, but because they go against the mainstream (paradigm) of thought of that science at that very moment? The case of homeopathy comes to my mind, because Hahnemann was one of the very first physicians to use double-blind tests with placebo in his practice and research; his books document several tests he subjected himself and his patients to, but his system has been consistently rejected in most countries because it is not "scientific", by science meaning "we can't quite explain how maximally diluted substances can have any effect on one's body". On the other hand, if you take something like psychotherapy, and do a statistical analysis on the efficacy of such (choose one school, clump them all, whatever), you may find a number that is below 50% of the cases, but psychotherapy hasn't been banned from most countries, because it has been able to fit underneath the paradigm of the social sciences; in spite of the fact that the existence of such things as "id", "unconscious mind", "projective identification" or "traumatic dissociation" all await for a test. Please note that I'm not disagreing with you here, but expanding on something you have brought up. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz I am also a trained (social) scientist and a natural sceptic, however I have had enough experiences myself and talked to enough people to accept the possibility that science is not the only vehicle through which we acquire knowledge.

punkangelgcm437	03 Aug 2003
Moongold...LOL. I caught yuh!! Yeah, I was up superlate last night. I'm a night owl by nature. Unfortunatly school starts in like 2½ weeks so..grr. Smilies are fun once you figure out the few things I always put together (like ::'s right next to *'s. When yuh do that it starts kissin people.). Channeling...I never claim to have that power...maybe I just knew if I didn't say somethin you'd change it. Heeheehee :). 10 Senses...wow. I kinda always thought we had the 5 (seeing, touching, hearing, tasting, and smelling) we use in the material world (ok..so my seeing & smelling suck. I have 4½ I guess LOL.). As for the other 5...that must be in intuition world? I always just thought that was 1 sense...the intuition sense...what some people might call the 'thrid eye'. Minderwiz-I see what you mean. I can't test if someone cares about me...or if there is a God. But here's something I learned from a movie (I know it's amazing. A Walk To Remeber is the best movie...I promise yall). It said that the more Einstein studied the universe, the more he believed in a high power. And I know the more I've studied Tarot, the more I believe in one too. But science can't prove it...so we'll never really know. Does studing something intensely such as this lead to believing there is a God? Or is it because I would have believed more in one anyway without Tarot? And I think we all have some special ability too. I'm not sure if psychic is the word I'd use...but maybe more of intuition. I think everyone who taps into it can have it if they tried. Luckily, I think I've somewhat tapped into mine and am developing it. Kiama also brings something great up. Common sense, empathy, intuition, info been given. This probably makes up for everything I use in my readings too. I dont think im psychic...cuz if I was I'd probably have more predictive dreams, and be able to tell you what was gonna happen. I can't do that by seeing it in a vision or a dream....but sometimes I can with the cards and my common sense. I would type more cuz I have another idea for a thread...but now I have to figure out where to put it...hmm. Wow Moongold..this thread is booming with replies.

Minderwiz	03 Aug 2003
Alex, Yes I would agree with you on that point - I don't actually believe that Scientists are as 'scientific' as they make out anyway. I can't remember the attribution but one scientist claimed that old theories don't die out because they are disproved but because their adherents eventually die off. There is prejudice in the scientific approach. Even worse there are problems with actually defining what it is that is to be measured, defining what an adequate measuring scale is and then agreeing what the evidence points to. Certainly in the social sciences there is considerable debate about the weight to be given to particular evidence. Actually science is far more normative than it lets on. Thus, Astrological judgements of character may be dismissed as 'superstition' but something like Myers Briggs may be acceptable. Yet there are great similarites between Astrological classifications and some modern psychological classifications. Its amazing the number of four fold psychological classifications that science accepts that oddly coincide with the traditional Fire, Earth, Air and Water or the characteristics of Choleric, Sanguine, Melacholic and Phlegmatic. The latter of course would be dismissed as being so out of date as to be totally 'unscientific' PS: I never mind anyone disagreeing with me - especially if they are seeking to extend their knowledge or explore the meaning of concepts.

Alex	03 Aug 2003
Kinda sounds like Thomas Kuhn. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Alex, I can't remember the attribution but one scientist claimed that old theories don't die out because they are disproved but because their adherents eventually die off.

MeeWah	03 Aug 2003
I have yet to read all of the comments on this but shall after addressing the query. Speaking from personal experience, I believe we are all endowed "psychically". Some are more aware of it &/or able to utilize it either from natural inclination or practice; cultural background, so on. Since we each bring the spectrum of all the life's experiences & knowledge (& those of far past), I see the personal power as a blend of both intuition--the natural knowledge & that of the common sense--logic, the intellect, & especially of the applied knowledge. Knowledge per se is a blend of a myriad of influences, "psychic" & otherwise & of different levels of the being. For example, I have found Alex' views from her scientific/intellectual standpoint to oft be valid & to offer yet another layer towards the understanding. Btw: I am not sure I am able to explain how I read, but I use Tarot cards & other devices as a focus. At times, I read spontaneously without any tools either in response to a comment or some other trigger. I do not need the physical presence of the person being read for nor do I need to consciously be in a meditative state. Nearly all of the readings I perform involve no interaction with the client, including in-person. The best description is I "see" images; "sense" energy patterns; "receive" thoughts. The awareness of accessing knowledge beyond the usual senses is something I have lived with all my life. 'Tis not easy. Calls for discernment; to sift amongst the influx of "information" & requires me to shut-down at intervals to preserve the equilibrium. Readings can be draining; feel as if I am taking from a personal life force. Edited to clarify: I do feel as if I am a messenger; merely a vehicle to pass on information. Also that it involves an exchange of energy--such as my personal energy. An offering or sacrifice.

Minderwiz	03 Aug 2003
I also feel that it is difficult if not impossible to split the mind up into nice tidy self contained segments. We might for convenience, identify broad categories of mental activity but in reality what there is is an integrated whole. It is impossible to precisely distinguish between intuition, psycic ability and common sense. I stress 'precisely', we may agree that such a thing is 'common sense' or such a thing is 'psychic' but with a complex activity such as divination (of virtually any kind) I don't think we can say 'its only common sense' or its only 'intuition' or 'its only psychic'.

Moongold	04 Aug 2003
Quote: Initially posted by Minderwiz I also feel that it is difficult if not impossible to split the mind up into nice tidy self contained segments. We might for convenience, identify broad categories of mental activity but in reality what there is is an integrated whole. It is impossible to precisely distinguish between intuition, psychic ability and common sense. Would it not be interesting if we knew more about it though? Mary Greer identifies analytic, therapeutic, psychic and magical styles and comments that most people use more than one, sometimes all four, in one reading. Maybe these approaches are much more integrated into our everyday way of being in the world than we realise. Still, some people seem to be more gifted than others. I guess we will never know why this is although I would like to understand. I know that psychic abilities can often be predicted from a person’s chart. I still have questions. My partner for example, has the capacity for understanding the mystical but she has absolutely no interest in it. I think she has definitely has the capacity but is so tied to her work that she does not have the spiritual space. This raises the questions: Where do psychic talents come from and how are they developed? Do one’s birth chart, culture, spiritual yearning, meditation, love and yearning for God, transformational spiritual awakenings all have relevance in some way? Quote: Initially posted by MeeWah I am not sure I am able to explain how I read, but I use Tarot cards & other devices as a focus. At times, I read spontaneously without any tools either in response to a comment or some other trigger. I do not need the physical presence of the person being read for nor do I need to consciously be in a meditative state. Nearly all of the readings I perform involve no interaction with the client, including in-person. The best description is I "see" images; "sense" energy patterns; "receive" thoughts. The awareness of accessing knowledge beyond the usual senses is something I have lived with all my life. 'Tis not easy. Calls for discernment; to sift amongst the influx of "information" & requires me to shut-down at intervals to preserve the equilibrium. Readings can be draining; feel as if I am taking from a personal life force. Edited to clarify: I do feel as if I am a messenger; merely a vehicle to pass on information. Also that it involves an exchange of energy--such as my personal energy. An offering or sacrifice. ] Your skills seem to be gifts, enhanced by the way you have lived and your spiritual path. And they seem to have been with you all your life. This implies that you were born with them. I imagine that people can acquire gifts or can develop them. You, Meewah, as well as others like you that I have met also acknowledge they are messengers, that there is a power or powers outside them. The nature of people’s gifts seem to vary so much as well. Some are know a person’s spiritual characteristics and potential, some can predict events. The psychic capacity sometimes can also be a burden? It would seem that the self has to be well bounded and well integrated, and capable of sifting the information it gets and making it coherent. I think Astra also referred to this. If a person was not so, they could become quite overwhelmed or ill. I am reminded of a person with schizophrenia whose brain cannot filter all the sensory stimulation it gets, and the overload results in a another psychotic episode. Some people with mental illness seem to be quite amazingly psychic but maybe that is an illusion. For some it is difficult to distinguish between what is visionary or insightful and what is paranoia and delusion.

Minderwiz	04 Aug 2003
I happne to agree with my TV Medium acquaitance, We are born with psychci abilities - but few of us try to develop them, mainly for cultural reasons. I can really understand your comments about your partner. I didn't really become aware that I had a psychic side to develop (not that much progress has been made :) ) until I was made redundant from my management post. I also think that we are inclined to attribute information we gained psychically to other factors - chance, coincidence, imagination. In other words we fail to recognise where we got the information from.

Alex	04 Aug 2003
He, he. It brings to my mind a conversation I had with my grandmother when I was about... 7 may be? When she was a teen, her father was stabbed to death on the street. He left home in the morning like every other day and around noon my grandmother was screaming in the house that something terrible had happened to her dad. She remained in a state of shock all afternoon and lost her vision for a few days. The news only came at night, and everyone was astonished. When they asked her, how did she know, she said "by they way the wind was blowing against the window frame". She often talked about windows, curtains and doors, the way they were half-open, half closed, the way the wind blew against them, and things she saw on the windows' glasses. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah Btw: I am not sure I am able to explain how I read, but I use Tarot cards & other devices as a focus. At times, I read spontaneously without any tools either in response to a comment or some other trigger. I do not need the physical presence of the person being read for nor do I need to consciously be in a meditative state. Nearly all of the readings I perform involve no interaction with the client, including in-person. The best description is I "see" images; "sense" energy patterns; "receive" thoughts. The awareness of accessing knowledge beyond the usual senses is something I have lived with all my life.

punkangelgcm437	04 Aug 2003
Originally Posted By Moongold: " I know that psychic abilities can often be predicted from a person’s chart. My partner for example, has the capacity for understanding the mystical but she has absolutely no interest in it. I think she has definitely has the capacity but is so tied to her work that she does not have the spiritual space. " What do you look for when trying to find these?

isthmus nekoi	04 Aug 2003
I'm not psychic, I just read cards :) Bottom line for me when reading for someone: is what I'm saying actually helping this person? Whatever method works, works psychic or not. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold For some it is difficult to distinguish between what is visionary or insightful and what is paranoia and delusion. The key difference, I would think, is that the former retains reference points to objective reality and limitations; the ego is still intact and there is an overall feeling of humanity. Paranoia and delusion I would see as characterized by hyperinflation, identification w/inhuman aspects of the psyche, esp the Self archetype. In other words, all human proportions have been thrown out the window; the subject thinks themselves to be the center of the universe. punkangel, To answer your question briefly, do check out placements regarding Neptune, Pisces and your 12th house. Is your chart on our study group account on astro.com? I can take a look at it there if it is ^_^

punkangelgcm437	04 Aug 2003
Thanks Isthmus!!! Yall have an astro study group!! Dude. I dunt think its in the groups files tho...since I didnt know we had one. My birth info: October 7th 1987, 12:55 PM Kokomo Indiana USA http://www.astro.com/cgi/atxgen.cgi?cid=mdrfile5kjyF0-u1053967626&btyp=apx&nhor=5&go.x=12&go.y=3 My Neptune is in Capricorn which is in my 1st house (but isnt my ascendant). My 12 house holds Saturn & Uranus. And Pisces has no planets but is in MY 3rd house. Neptune sextiles Mercury & Neptune sextiles Pluto. Any thoughts??

Moongold	04 Aug 2003
I found this fascinating description of the Tarot reading in Pollack's Forest of Souls last night. Is it a good description of what some might call the "psychic" process? Quote: The Tarot works partly because we will it to work. This is not the same as saying that we only think or pretend that it works. The Western esoteric tradition has long recognised the importance of will in the creation of magic. Writer on the Golden Dawn sometimes define the entire enterprise as the the training of the magical will. The Tarot works because we use our will (even if unconsciously) to reach into the river of probabilities represented by the cards and draw out exactly those cards that will describe the most likely developments. And it works because we look at the various cards and pull them all together to produce a meaningful story of a person's life. In any Tarot reading, the card is actally only half the answer to a question. The other half is how we interpret it. This too involves the will, for we must will ourselves to explore both what the card can mean, then apply what we get from the card to the actual question or situation This is exactly what most of us try to do, I think. This process is easily explainable in scientific terms as well. We draw on our knowledge of the cards potential meanings through image and archetype and pull them all together to produce a meaningful story of the person's life, We may use imagination, empathy, experience, intuition to do this. All of us have those skills to some degree. The cards can reach deep into our unconscious understanding. This is where it all becomes interesting. If we see "psychic" as describing powers outside the domain of physical law, I think this is where it might all begin.

MeeWah	04 Aug 2003
Moongold: I do not think of myself as "psychic"--after all, what does it really mean? I am painfully aware that I "know" very little in comparison to the knowledge that is available; & that what I apparently access is subject to a finite understanding & interpretation. Such as, I knew before I spoke English (not my first language) & attended school I had lived before. I also knew that past lives is not a subject for casual conversation; & especially after I had a talk with my father about it. It was during grade school that I came to identify specific past lives, but those moments were not impressive--more like "O yeah, I see now why such & such...". We know from scientific/medical studies we possess 5 senses because they are *measurable", but we do not know about any sense that is not. I think natal charts can provide information as to the *potential* for certain talents, but ultimately 'tis up to the individual to know to develop them or to seek the development. It was a long time ago, but I recall reading in one of Edgar Cayce's readings that past lives can be determined from the natal chart. I think he referred to them as "planetary sojourns" based on the placements of [certain] planets. The source or origin of talents could be a combination of factors--the result of past lives, their preoccupations, associations or study thereby leading to the familiarity of a subject; ancestral influences & heredity. This may explain in part the genius mentality such as Mozart's musical genius, who is said to have composed music at the age of 4. Whatever it is, it may come from something "larger" than the present "I".

MeeWah	04 Aug 2003
Alex: Your account of your grandmother reminds me of an experience with my brother, the youngest in my family. He was about 4 years old & I was in the 4th grade. I had just gotten inside the hallway of the family home when there was a commotion & I saw my brother crying & screaming . He had awakened from a nap where he dreamt he saw our father cut or lose his right hand. My mother tried to calm him, but he was inconsolable. Although my mother had always said the telling of a bad dream could dissipate its energy, I felt a chill & a pricking sensation that preceeds every negative event. She said something about praying for my father's safety. Much later, we received a call from a hospital that my father had an accident at work & would need to stay for a few days. He had cut his right pinky finger to the bone; required surgery & a hospital stay. I was relieved it was only a finger. Btw: nearly all the members of my family have had precognitive experiences preceeded by certain sensations &/or dreams.

Macavity	04 Aug 2003
I too would tend to think that a lot of these (claimed) abilities are "hard-wired" or biochemical and perhaps indeed inherited (there's a lot of seventh sons?). I admire Ms. Greer (who has correspondingly become my favourite Tarot author!) and the others here for "nailing their colours to the mast" on this one. It's certainly more encouraging for those of us who struggle on with our (mere?) five senses than some of this "we know who you are" stuff, which IMO can be seen as rather divisive? }) I think there are indeed a lot of intriguing pointers in those who's minds may be "different" to the norm. I recall brain research which showed clearly that the brains of SOME folk "light up" on scans in quite specific areas when e.g. engaged in religious/spriritual activities. Physical trauma to these areas were also noted to subsequently produce quite amazing results. One young man involved in a driving accident was (seizures aside) left with recurrent episodes of feeling "oneness with everything" and a sense of being "able to read minds". Intriguing anyway! My own view is that this may also be echoed in biochemical "damage" - Witness those who claim similar experiences, following mental trauma, PTSD, addiction recovery etc. I suppose these demonstrate how minds can be changed (sic) and I think it is also important to remember that not merely are our opinions different, but also our perceptions of the world. Finally, it perhaps useful to remember when talking generically of "scientists", aside from not being "out to get ya" (sic!) we may simply have brains that are wired differently. That does not exclude e.g. the possiblilty of expanding the scope of the "software" ... :D Macavity

Minderwiz	05 Aug 2003
Taking the view of my TV Medium acquaintance that we all have psychic abilities, then you may well be right that they are part of the genetic code of us all in someway. He certainly believes that all of us can develop our ability to use the 'psychic' sense (for want of a better descriptor) - though not nescessarily to the same level - in the same way that we can all run but not all of us can run a mile in under 4 minutes. And, of course, some of us may choose not to run at all. LOL

Aerin	05 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama If I do have some psychic ability, I do not use it in my readings. And I make sure the querent knows it too: I do not want to be seen as a psychic, simply because I cannot call myself one. When I read Tarot, I use my common sense, empathy, the infomration I've been given, and intuition to link the cards to the querent's question. I don't think that if we do not use psychic powers that we are not real Tarot readers or we are not genuine: Tarot for me does not preclude psychic ability. It simply precludes some understanding of Tarot. :D I must explain that I do not do readings where I simple 'predict' what will happen to somebody, because I am not psychically inclined This describes my approach too. The only person I knew who actively claimed to be psychic used her so-called 'abilities' to spread gossip 'I just know X sleeps with Z because I am psychic'. Yeah. Right. I am torn between thinking perhaps you can't be psychic without knowing you are, and worrying that if you did think you were psychic you could get all sorts of rubbish mixed in with the real stuff and end up doing harm, if you couldn't separate real from not-real. (I have worried a lot about this, and decided that for myself I will believe that I am not psychic and concentrate on developing my intuition and creativity.) I do get impressions from the cards that I try and put across in a 'well it may be X' or 'what I'm getting is Y and I don't know if that would fit' or 'I wonder if' sort of a way so hopefully people can reject it if it is wrong. A lot of the time my impressions fit: sometimes not. I don't know why some people think they have to pretend to be psychic to get readings though, that's a shame. I like Mary Greer's approach. I would be entirely comfortable consulting someone who read like that. Aerin ps my mother gets some accurate impressions. She has had the sense of my dad being 'close' (he died a few years back) coming up to close relatives dying. She also once got freaked looking around a house that she later found had a woman who had committed suicide. She was in the bedroom where it happened when she got very cold, and scared, and had to run out. It was only later she found out (estate agents didn't tell her beforehand, naturally). She has no interest in tarot, or mediums, or any other related topics.

Alex	05 Aug 2003
I tend to think that too. Mee Wah also pointed to the fact that her family has a few people who have somewhat similar abilities. I also wonder about drug-induced stages and what effects certain drugs_even prescribed drugs as a matter of fact_ could have on one's "psychic abilities". In my family, however, only my grandmother has any. As she aged (she's now 82), her visions have became less common. I sometimes look at people and I can tell they're going to become ill, and ill with what, within the next 2-3 years. I don't think it's a psychic ability though. Certain tendencies reveal themselves through subtle physical signs. I could not organize a compendium on how to tell what illness people will develop but somehow I sometimes "know"_ it's in a way very disorganized knowledge of facts and lost experiences, but certainly more a matter of being a keen observer, not a psychic. It may not be by chance that I have become a taxonomist, after all. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Macavity I too would tend to think that a lot of these (claimed) abilities are "hard-wired" or biochemical and perhaps indeed inherited (there's a lot of seventh sons?). I admire Ms. Greer (who has correspondingly become my favourite Tarot author!) and the others here for "nailing their colours to the mast" on this one. It's certainly more encouraging for those of us who struggle on with our (mere?) five senses than some of this "we know who you are" stuff, which IMO can be seen as rather divisive? })

Moongold	05 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah I think natal charts can provide information as to the *potential* for certain talents, but ultimately 'tis up to the individual to know to develop them or to seek the development. It was a long time ago, but I recall reading in one of Edgar Cayce's readings that past lives can be determined from the natal chart. I think he referred to them as "planetary sojourns" based on the placements of [certain] planets. The source or origin of talents could be a combination of factors--the result of past lives, their preoccupations, associations or study thereby leading to the familiarity of a subject; ancestral influences & heredity. This may explain in part the genius mentality such as Mozart's musical genius, who is said to have composed music at the age of 4. Whatever it is, it may come from something "larger" than the present "I". There seems to be agreement that the capacity for *psychic* development is evident in astrological charts. It is interesting that the realization of this capacity seems spontaneous and natural with some and not with others. I am interested in the connection with *intent*. By this I mean, the connection with a sense of *God/Goddess* or the motivation for good. This connection may be congruent with your sense of being a *messenger*, MeeWah. Again, my mind wanders to the study of mystical experience. But that is worth a whole thread in its own right. In a very small way, my mind at time has been incredibly clear and peaceful after some periods of meditation. I've felt a sense of *oneness* with being - a sense of mental clarity that is quite amazing. Sometimes I have had this when reading Tarot as well, when I felt that I was the ricipient of something much more real and bigger than myself. I felt that way earlier this year when doing a reading in honour of PCS. I felt quite impelled to that reading. Another time I felt like that, however, and the person who received the reading said it was quite * off the wall*. :) However, these experiences are very rare and quite unpredictable and quite possibly explainable inother ways. If they were consistent, they might mean something more, but they are not consistent. With reference to Macavity's comments, the wiring of the brain is very interesting as well. I refer again to brain studies of people with schizophrenia. Australia has been a world leader in this research, and some of these studies have shown the presence of certain chemicals to a greater degree than normal and changes in brain structure in some people with schizophrenia. There is a difference in this type of experience, however. I have known many people with schizophrenia after years of working in mental health, and none of those people would have chosen their illness. The psychotic experiences, the hallucinations, were not good. They sometines have produced great art and poetry, but seem to have been very different experiences from those of others who *see* differently and whose gifts seem to come from elsewhere. Someone I knew once used to have visions as a child. They went away for many years. Now she is producing the most beautiful art. It is as though her soul is pouring out these visions in a different way. You can see the development in colour, form and expression. It is quite beautiful to watch.

MeeWah	05 Aug 2003
Alex: Those who are trained to observe have an edge in that the detailed observations are or become as second nature; enhance the intuitive sense. I think most if not all those here are highly intuitive but some are not accustomed to thinking of the self as such. The brain is like a computer, able to compile data & extrapolate instantaneously in the "right" conditions. We make split-second decisions constantly without consciously stopping to think labouriously over each detail. A number of those decisions may have no "real" or supporting basis but are proven to be sound or worthy.

MeeWah	05 Aug 2003
Moongold: Art is of an inspired experience; an expression of the soul level regardless of the medium (painting, writing, dancing, composing music). There is a category of art regarded as cosmic or visionary art. Some Tarot decks seem to fall into that category more so than others but it may be a matter of personal perspective. There were likely factors in the personal lives of their creators that enhanced or influenced their deck. Am sure there are more examples as I am limited to those I have seen or am familiar with & also sure not everyone will agree: Thoth. William Blake Tarot created by Ed Buryn uses images from Blake's artwork. The images are of otherworldly scenes & are expressive of Blake's personal view of the human life & its spiritual significance (my opinion). If memory serves me, the cards of the Templar Tarot were painted by its creator, Allan Chester, in mostly a meditative state. Mary-el Tarot. I think its creator, Marie White, was pregnant during part of its creation. Cosmic Tribe. The Hermit card alone is what sold me on the deck (& then the presence of 3 Lovers cards). Tarot of the Sephiroth.

Little Baron	05 Aug 2003
Quote: [i] Originally posted by lawguy51 5. Some times the cards can be literal. 7. If you get an idea out of the blue but you think it might be wrong, bring it out into the open. Then you can let go of the idea and that gets rid of the 'psychic' thought. 9. Don't overlook a card that doesn't make sense. It usually has the most meaning. Obvious cards are not as revealing. Excellent advice there. Thanks for posting.

Alex	05 Aug 2003
I would like to point, just for the sake of it, that Schizophrenia is an umbrella term for a condition that shall be in the future split into several. At least one type of schizophrenia has symptoms similar to an overdose of amphetamines or coccain; if you get to an emergency room with such symptoms, the doctors will not know if you're a junkie or schizophrenic, at least until next day. What I'm trying to say is: most "mental" states can be induced/facilitated by drugs. On the other hand, what we're interested in is that core of "reality check" that may result from such states, what seems to be easily lost with a drop more of dopamine here, or a drop less there. The "brain" of persons with "psychic" abilities that can reach out to the world may not be "very" different from ours, but .... *just* a little different. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold With reference to Macavity's comments, the wiring of the brain is very interesting as well. I refer again to brain studies of people with schizophrenia. Australia has been a world leader in this research, and some of these studies have shown the presence of certain chemicals to a greater degree than normal and changes in brain structure in some people with schizophrenia. There is a difference in this type of experience, however. I have known many people with schizophrenia after years of working in mental health, and none of those people would have chosen their illness. The psychotic experiences, the hallucinations, were not good. They sometines have produced great art and poetry, but seem to have been very different experiences from those of others who *see* differently and whose gifts seem to come from elsewhere.

Alex	05 Aug 2003
I'm laughing here, because in the same time that I'm wired to details, I have Attention Deficit Disorder. I can miss the presence of new furniture in the house for days, you know. God sure has a sense of humor. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah Alex: Those who are trained to observe have an edge in that the detailed observations are or become as second nature; enhance the intuitive sense

lawguy51	05 Aug 2003
I have been told by someone who would know that if I stick with one deck, the symbols from that deck may activate my otherwise dormant psychic abilities. Given that my main deck is the Thoth, I won't be lacking for symbolism! Just food for thought. Lawguy51

MeeWah	05 Aug 2003
Alex: A curious dichotomy, is it not? Contradictions abound in Life. ADHD is an example of being "wired" differently. Could be described as living in a kaleidescope, subjected to constantly shifting stimuli. A tool such as Tarot cards (or any other form of divination) helps the focus by their appeal on an unconscious level rather than the obvious or conscious level.

Moongold	06 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex I would like to point, just for the sake of it, that Schizophrenia is an umbrella term for a condition that shall be in the future split into several. At least one type of schizophrenia has symptoms similar to an overdose of amphetamines or coccain; if you get to an emergency room with such symptoms, the doctors will not know if you're a junkie or schizophrenic, at least until next day. What I'm trying to say is: most "mental" states can be induced/facilitated by drugs. On the other hand, what we're interested in is that core of "reality check" that may result from such states, what seems to be easily lost with a drop more of dopamine here, or a drop less there. The "brain" of persons with "psychic" abilities that can reach out to the world may not be "very" different from ours, but .... *just* a little different. Alex. Hi Alex, The are a number of different types of schizophrenia - you're quite right. I use the term to distinguish this disorder from *drug induced psychosis* which is something else altogether. Schizophrenia usually is not diagnosed until a person has exhibited the symptoms of the disorder over a period of at least six months. The symptoms may not simply be hallucinations in whatever form but severe depression, loss of affect, loss of social skills and delusions - all in full or part measure. US psychiatrists tend to diagnose schizophrenia much earlier than their counterparts in Australia, I have heard. Drug induced psychosis is more common these days with the party drugs and their variants. There are many of them. Treatment at Emergency Departments tends to be to load people up with valium and send then home to calm down. The party drugs seem to have more transient effects, though there are exceptions. Marihuana has been identified through research as leading to more significant drug induced psychoses and actual changes in brain chemistry. Sometimes in vulnerable individuals drug induced psychoses can result in the more serious psychotic illnesses such as schizophrenia. There are other types of transient psychoses as well, and these are often evident in people with the diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. I have not know many people with psychotic illnesses who thought the psychosis was something that enhanced their lives, give then special gifts or could be regarded as a *gift of seeing*.. People with these experiences do exist I'm sure. I don't know many because I've always worked with people whose lives have fallen apart. People have for centuries used drugs for mystical experiences. It is 20 years since I studied this but *mescalin*comes to mind as one of these. There are others that I have forgotten. I think Aldous Huxley may have been renowned for using drugs whilst writing, too. And was it Samuel Taylor Coleridge who wrote the *Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner* on marihuana or opium? This is fascinating material and we could go on forever. Most ordinary folk under the influenc might have a brilliant idea but be completely unable to materialize it, or even to write it down. Some of the mystical visions experienced by people like Teresa of Avila and others are very interesting indeed, and one must remember that these experiences occurred in cultures very different from ours. I think our Western culture is too noisy and distracting now to allow for much of this kind of experience. Those of us who do training allow for an average attention span of 10 minutes in most audiences before one needs to do something to retain the concentration and interest of people. This collective or individual state of mind is not conducive for the mystical experience or even for much insight. Perhaps the *gift of seeing* may be due to a number of factors: your place on the continuum of reincarnation and how evolved a soul you are; your current spiritual state; whether you practice meditation or not; whether you have been blessed by the Gods with this gift or not. I guess the other thing that come to mind is the different forms and degrees the *gift of seeing* takes. For some it will be a series of images and impressions, a sense of energy coupled with insight. For others it might be just knowing or a lightening illumination. Other people just seem to live in another dimension.

Armande	06 Aug 2003
I finally took the time to read this entire thread. :) I am in a phase where I have to acknowledge that I may be a psychic reader. I would have to be because I almost exclusively read through email and I seem to be spot on every time I do a reading. I even find it harder to do a reading when the person is present because then I get too empathic to their cause and what they want to hear. Must be my people skills and trying to please too damn hard. Otherwise I am an observant person and I do notice things. But when working with people (either tarot or kinesiology) I leave my personal views out the door. I don't want my opinion to get in the way, muddling things. So I focus on that person as is. When doing a reading through email, the main message always immediately seems to rise from the cards. I start out by writing that down and then the rest just follows. The story writes itself more or less. I never change much afterwards, only grammatical things and that's it. I don't need a special ambiance or even quiet. I just make sure that my feet are firmly on the ground and that my crown chakra is open. When I am done, I visualize closing my aura and chakras as if closing a sleepingbag, also over my head. Very neat. Is this relevant at all to the topicstarter? ;) Edit: I do seem to come from a line of more or less psychic people, through my father's lineage. No idea though if this is relevant. Sometimes people brag about these things but I doubt it means anything. The only cool thing about it is that I can talk about it with my dad, and that we both have stories of seeing/hearing dead relatives. :D

jmd	06 Aug 2003
I must admit to only have scanned through this thread, rather than having read it carefully. The first thing which struck me in the opening parts of the thread are how very special the act of reading is - and how much the myriad aspects of a reading the reader is called upon to integrate. Moongold obviously draws upon her various highly developed skills - developed, I would suggest, out of her sense for others, which she has been able to enhance through education and professional practice. Those of us who do not work in that sector may pay more attention (conscious or not) to different details, including, perhaps, the imaginative details or inspirational small voice within (incidentally, the question as to what intuition is was also addressed in an earlier thread: Intuition and the Reading). But perhaps the part I find the most important in the general thread title is in the question itself - for therein lies the integrity of the reader. Not in whether a person may be assessed by another in their knowledge of Tarot (many here would undoubtedly outperform professional psychologists who use the Tarot as an effective tool), nor in whether a person is able to have insight into the spiritual underpinnings of a person's existence - but in how genuine s/he is, as a reader, in that specific reading, for the specific situation or person, at that specific time... ... but now to read through this thread in greater detail :)

matfav	06 Aug 2003
The tarot exercises the psychic mind, much like weight lifting will give you muscle. When you use the tarot the two aspects of the mind come together and work in harmony.

Alissa	06 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I think Aldous Huxley may have been renowned for using drugs whilst writing, too. And was it Samuel Taylor Coleridge who wrote the *Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner* on marihuana or opium? For some it will be a series of images and impressions, a sense of energy coupled with insight. For others it might be just knowing or a lightening illumination. Other people just seem to live in another dimension. With his early LSD writings, mostly done in the 50's, Huxley paved the way for Leary to pick up and run with the topic, but it was a very small part of what his career was about. "Using" was not a normal method of Huxley's for inspiriation with writing. It was, however, big time exploratory stuff that motivated his early experiments. And close ... Coleridge wrote, "Kubla Khan" under the influence of absythne. Wonderful poem, Alissa can't help but quote some of what she knows of it (by heart of course). "A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. It was an Abysinnian maid And on her dulcimer she played Singing of Mount Abora." Having said that... Nothing pisses me off more than the "I need to get high to create" mentality. Yes, it changes your mental pathways. But those who insist on using in order to "open themselves" drive me nuts. (In my experience they're the ones who get loaded and puke on themselves instead of writing poems seen in visions). Given my life, I've hung out with a lot of these types along the way, if you can't tell. And, the last paragraph you wrote is lovely, Moongold. And so it what you shared on schizophrenia (and very well written too). edited to add : The English geek in me went and looked up Kubla Kahn, and I stand corrected. According to Coleridge's own notes, as quoted in the Norton Anthology (v.2), the poem fragment was written after taking an "anodyne" that contained "two grains of opium". And what I neglected to mention, and almost tying this back to the subject, is that depictions of "psychics" who need to use in order to open themselves is just as abhorent to me as artists who use to create. Anyone remember that Johnny Depp portrayal of the Victorian psychic working on the Jack the Ripper case? And how he had to get high to "see things", absynthe was shown injested in the bath tub scene. God did that piss me off. (IMHO if your only path "in" is to get high, I don't know how effective a visionary you would ever be.) Yes it's a path, but I grrrr at those who use it as their only path.

Moongold	06 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd ............ but in how genuine s/he is, as a reader, in that specific reading, for the specific situation or person, at that specific time... JMD, it seems that you are saying that the reader must be fully present to the Querent and it is in the sacredness of that relationship that the magic occurs? That indeed is a beautiful thought.

Moongold	07 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by matfav The tarot exercises the psychic mind, much like weight lifting will give you muscle. When you use the tarot the two aspects of the mind come together and work in harmony. Quote: Originally posted by lawguy51 I have been told by someone who would know that if I stick with one deck, the symbols from that deck may activate my otherwise dormant psychic abilities. Given that my main deck is the Thoth, I won't be lacking for symbolism! Just food for thought. Lawguy51 Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah We know from scientific/medical studies we possess 5 senses because they are *measurable", but we do not know about any sense that is not. I think natal charts can provide information as to the *potential* for certain talents, but ultimately 'tis up to the individual to know to develop them or to seek the development. Whatever it is, it may come from something "larger" than the present "I". I think that how one is spiritually is really important in terms of reading tarot effectively and this raises issues of intention and will – how one lives one’s own life. There are different tissues to consider here but let me focus on meditation as a corollary to peace and insight. It is important for me to meditate very day. I am so much better when I do this. Physical exercise also helps. To be out walking in the quiet of the early morning when few others are around is an experience in its own right. The tarot and astrology are both comprehensive “symbolic languages” of life. How one uses them to release the powers of the mind and spirit could be a key to how effective one is as a reader. All this may sound really obvious to all you developed souls out there. I am finding my way so bear with me. I tried an experiment in a reading this morning, using the Thoth. There was a very difficult situation to resolve and I thought of the image of the person concerned as I held the cards. I relaxed and my mind went immediately to images which I find peaceful and releasing and stayed there for some time. I then dealt the cards, and the answer was immediately apparent. The reality is that I think I knew the answer before throwing the cards. The cards gave form and much richness to the answer. And because I had already spent some time on getting to know the cards, some of them literally overflowed with meaning. It is easier to do this with Tarot than astrology, and I might have to explore symbolism in astrology a little more. Perhaps this means going back to the original sources. What symbols did the ancients use? How did they attribute meaning? I begin to get as sense of this going to a quiet spot and just looking up at the sky and feeling a sense of its vastness. But there is a long way to go. I looked at my window just now as the day breaks over the city, and the police helicopter flew noisily by, shattering my day dreams of Saturn and his meaning. Perhaps that was a symbolic representation of Saturn after all?? :)

Alex	07 Aug 2003
I haven't met any either. The persons I know who have been diagnosed with Schizophrenia I believe have a mild form, because they have opted for non-medication and non-therapy and they seem to do much better off the anti-psychotic drugs, which seem to have as many side-effects as the illness itself. They do well for most part but I never heard them saying they believe they have a gift. For most part, what they have is a big problem of trying to function in this somewhat intolerant society when it comes to individuals who are not very productive, not very functional, and different. A problem that I see when an individual is diagnosed with a mental disorder is that that individual tends to lose all credibility in himself/herself. So, if they have "the gift of knowing", neither they themselves, nor their doctors or society, will believe they got anything worthywhile going. Sad, but true. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I have not know many people with psychotic illnesses who thought the psychosis was something that enhanced their lives, give then special gifts or could be regarded as a *gift of seeing*.. People with these experiences do exist I'm sure. I don't know many because I've always worked with people whose lives have fallen apart.

genna	07 Aug 2003
There are different forms of schizophrenia,but many forms give severe brain damage.Already after the first time a person becomes ill,and stops his/her medication because he/she feels he/she can do without,and get it back;the brain damage gets worse,so that they can´t study,and the second time this happens they will maybe even are unable to hold a job. People with psychosis need help quickly,to stop it developing into schizophrenia,it´s hard to say at first what a psychosis will lead too.They need doctors. The medication STOP the brain damage caused by the illness.It also stop the person from committing suicide,along with support from family and friends. This illness is living in a nightmare.It brings on depression.People who are diagnosed need a lot of help to be able to get on with their lives. Therefore people who are ill need treatment quickly,and people who advice them to stop their medication take an awful responsability upon themselves(I have a friend with schizophrenia who stopped her medication;she was studying and doing fine,now she isn´t.Her sister is ill too and can´t hold a job.)

Moongold	08 Aug 2003
Yes Genna, I do agree with you that most psychotic illnesses are problematic and do require treatment. Often early treatment along with the support of significant others, including family, can prevent people from getting worse. There new drugs available now which can alleviate the psychotic symptoms without the really disabling side effects associated with many of the older drugs. People's experience of psychosis and schizophrenia is very individual, and always unique. Our Western culture does not always deal so kindly with people who have this experience. This shows itself in labelling, fear and prejudice, and often real difficulty in accessing meaningful services. One of the real tragedies of such illness in our society is that it commonly strikes the very young, and there is much grief involved for all people concerned. We began speaking about psychoses when considering the affect of brain structure and chemistry on other ways of "seeing" and also perhaps of understanding "mystical experiences". It is documented (Warner, R: Schizophrenia: a political economy view, 1977) that people in sympathetic, perhaps more spiritually oriented cultures, usually are less "ill" because they have respect and a valued role in those cultures. They are, in fact, often regarded as holy people. I think this is where this thread connected with psychosis but it may not be so relevant to consider psychosis as a way of "seeing" in this context, in our culture. I have a family member (extended family) with long term schizophrenia.

Alex	08 Aug 2003
The only trouble being sometimes (actually most times) to sit down for long enough to look at the entire throw... Alex. Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah A tool such as Tarot cards (or any other form of divination) helps the focus by their appeal on an unconscious level rather than the obvious or conscious level.

Alex	08 Aug 2003
In a way it's not exactly about "knowing" but being able to "realize", communicate such knowledge in a meaningfull way. I wouldn't go as far as saying that schizophrenic people don't see, or know differently, or even more_ and I gather you haven't said that either_ but that such knoledge may not be perceived, or communicated, in a way that is meaningfull in society. For most of the time at least. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I think this is where this thread connected with psychosis but it may not be so relevant to consider psychosis as a way of "seeing" in this context, in our culture.

Moongold	08 Aug 2003
I was doing some research on the concept of "outsider" which I think may fit many people who could be described as visionary, mentally ill, eccentric and so on. I came across this painting called The Son of Man by Barbara Coleman. It is a painting of Christ. It is so like one of our neighbourhood characters whom I know has schizophrenia. I just wanted to share this. It reminds me of the miraculous and the unknown in everyday life. The man I refer to, the man in my neighbourhood, lives in poverty in a local rooming house but so values his freedom.

Moongold	08 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa With his early LSD writings, mostly done in the 50's, Huxley paved the way for Leary to pick up and run with the topic, but it was a very small part of what his career was about. "Using" was not a normal method of Huxley's for inspiriation with writing. It was, however, big time exploratory stuff that motivated his early experiments. And close ... Coleridge wrote, "Kubla Khan" under the influence of absythne. Wonderful poem, Alissa can't help but quote some of what she knows of it (by heart of course). "A damsel with a dulcimer in a vision once I saw. It was an Abysinnian maid And on her dulcimer she played Singing of Mount Abora." This sounds like you Alissa, the damsel I mean :) But seriously this theme has stayed with me over the days since you posted this....Something to do with the similarities between spiritual vision and poetic vision. Tarot is a spiritual mirror? The images awake something in our psyche and enable us to understand and reflect something back to the Querent. ot even to ourselves. Perhaps the Tarot images are a mirror through which the Divine speaks? The images are metaphors of spiritual truth which enable us to articulate understanding that otherwise could not be spoken. There is something about the images being the visual means by which one connects with the divine, the mystery within. And what is diffferent about poetry? Emily Dickinson said: "If I feel physically as if the top of my head were taken off, I know that is poetry." Do we not feel the same sometimes when we use Tarot? Isn't Tarot about the integration of practical wisdom with mystical experience, articulated in language that comes from the spirit, the inner life? When I have one of those moment of Tarot truth, particularly in relation to a reading for someone else, I feel as though the top of my head has lifted off :). I think the poetic vision is a little like that too. Poets create images through words and reflect the spiritual vision through metaphors of language. Sometimes when I read a poem I may feel as if I have been given a spiritual insight in a similar way to that which I sometimes feel through Tarot. The difference in Tarot is that it is usually personal; with poetry it is more universal. Now this thread is becoming a monologue, so I will leave it after this if no-one else comments. :)

genna	09 Aug 2003
I want to thank you for your insight,Moongold.Much food for thought.

Alissa	09 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold There is something about the images being the visual means by which one connects with the divine, the mystery within. Isn't Tarot about the integration of practical wisdom with mystical experience, articulated in language that comes from the spirit, the inner life? When I have one of those moment of Tarot truth, particularly in relation to a reading for someone else, I feel as though the top of my head has lifted off :). Now this thread is becoming a monologue, so I will leave it after this if no-one else comments. :) Alissa keeps the monologue going, because I find it terribly interesting that : 1. a thread about Psychic Powers and Common Sense has lead us to discussing schizophrenia and poetry and... 2. any time a thread gets even vaguely "literary", I'm just all over it like stink on... skunks. ;) I adore the Tarot statement you made Moongold -- I wanted to quote it again because it was such a wonderful answer to the question originally posed, especially the "head being lifted off" quote. Moongold, I agree! Poetry is different than novel because it's succinct and often *extremely visual*. It's like writing in visuals, in dream images, instead of play-by-play. Whose woods these are I think I know His house is in the village though He will not see me stopping here To watch his woods fill up with snow. --Robert Frost I see those woods, I see the big fat fluffy snowflakes. I feel the interloper attitude of trespassing. I see mounds of white piling up and a pony next to me, his breath shushing in the still frosty air. Poetry makes us see things. Tarot makes us see things. Any kind of reading (tarot, palm, flocks of birds) makes us "go in" ... and see things. Very Visual, I think. (But, remember ... Sight is only one sense! You can develop 4 more beyond inner seeing ... and learn to smell the wet snowflakes, feel the cold air making your nose hairs tingle, hear the silence, broken only by occassional clumps of snow as they fall, heavy and wet, from the branches who can no longer support them to thud in the snow drifts).

Moongold	09 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa Poetry makes us see things. Tarot makes us see things. Any kind of reading (tarot, palm, flocks of birds) makes us "go in" ... and see things. Very Visual, I think. (But, remember ... Sight is only one sense! You can develop 4 more beyond inner seeing ... and learn to smell the wet snowflakes, feel the cold air making your nose hairs tingle, hear the silence, broken only by occassional clumps of snow as they fall, heavy and wet, from the branches who can no longer support them to thud in the snow drifts) Yes.........I understand. And, as MeeWah commented, there may be other senses that we do not know about. The Tarot is a set of images that provides a certain framework through which "seeing" can occur. The cards engage the sight, touch, hearing, speech, mind and spirit. I can't remember all the senses:). We can play with them. There are rituals associated with them - shuffling and spreads, cloths et cetera - which are really important. The cards are their own sacred space. I can now understand why people use cleansing rituals with them. I read something that Huck said in a history thread today that stayed with me. Tarot is archetypal. Perhaps that makes the difference. What do you think? A flock of birds, a set of tools on the garage floor, tea leaves at the bottom of a cup..........these things may form patterns of meaning...........but they are not archetypal representations. The poetic vision is image and meaning captured in language, form and metaphor. The image and meaning can be archetypal. Let me quote Rilke from the Duino Elegies (7th) Nowhere, Beloved, will world be but within us. Our life passes in transformation. And the external shrinks into less and less. Where once an enduring house was, now a cerebral structure crosses our path, completely belonging to the realm of concepts, as though it still stood in the brain. Our age has built itself vast reservoirs of power, formless as the straining energy that it wrests from the earth. Temples are no longer known. It is we who secretly save up these extravagances of the heart. Where one of them still survives, a Thing that was formerly prayed to, worshipped, knelt before - just as it is , it passes into the invisible world. Many no longer perceive it, yet miss the chance to build it inside thenselves now, with pillars and statues, greater I love Rilke, and this piece is quite grand, full of archetypal imagery, for me. Yet so is Robert Frost's poem, wherein the woods full of snow became another cathedral of the spirit. I don't know where to go from here, Alissa :).

Alissa	10 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold [b] The poetic vision is image and meaning captured in language, form and metaphor. The image and meaning can be archetypal. Moongold, this reminds me of Plato's Theory of Forms. It's been a long time since Philosophy 101, but I remember studying the Theory of Forms : that in each of us lives all the archetypes, and words bring them into consciousness for us. I say the word, "Chair." A bazillion variations on chairs exist in the world -- wooden, upholstered, padded, straightback, lazyboy -- but despite this, we understand what a chair is. Inside us, there is the archetypal Chair, that calls itself into our minds with the word itself, and because of these Forms (which we all borrow and use) we can communicate. And, because this is just too pretty, and I'm so glad you shared it, I quote you quoting Rilke :D Nowhere, Beloved, will world be but within us. Where one of them still survives, a Thing that was formerly prayed to, worshipped, knelt before - just as it is , it passes into the invisible world. Many no longer perceive it, yet miss the chance to build it inside themselves now, with pillars and statues, greater It reminds me so much of the end of "Kubla Khan" that I can't help but draw parallels to Coleridge's poem again : Could I revive within me Her symphony and song To such deep delight twould win me That with music, loud and long I would build that dome in air, That sunny dome, those caves of ice. And all who heard would see them there. And all would cry, Beware! Beware! His flashing eyes, his floating hair. Weave a circle round him thrice And close your eyes with holy dread For he on honey dew hath fed And drunk the milk of Paradise. Again, both visionaries extole the same message. Look inside, you can build it there. External awareness can only take you so far, so let's build it from the inside out. What a great idea! :D

Scarletpeaches	30 Aug 2003
Hi Alissa - took me a while to read this thread which is why I'm only posting my reply now. The Victorian 'psychic' in From Hell? Yup, made me angry too - for different reasons though! Johnny Depp was about 20 years too young to play Abberline, who showed no psychic ability in real life and the film was FULL of historical inaccuracies. Grr! Just like Hollywood - never lets the truth get in the way of a good story. Keep practising the 'mockney' accent, Johnny! Where was I? Oh yes...psychic abilities. I definitely wouldn't call myself psychic and as for reading people, well, I'm pretty bad at that. You'd have to hit me over the head with a hammer to get my attention sometimes (although I'd prefer it if you didn't). I use tarot almost as therapy or counselling. I'm not sure if that's the right way to phrase it. I want to learn more about what makes people 'tick' and tarot teaches me about patterns of behaviour. It's also very good at giving advice, I think so anyway and any time something goes seriously wrong in life it's usually because I've ignored the advice given! When WILL I learn that I don't always know best? Tarot's been around for centuries and I've only been here for 27 years!

Moongold	30 Aug 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Alissa [again, both visionaries extole the same message. look inside, you can build it there. external awareness can only take you so far, so let's build it from the inside out. what a great idea! :d [/quote] Alissa, This is what Amounra says also in the thread on Archetypes and Symbols. I read your words without grasping them initially, until I came back to read this most recent post from Scarlet Peaches. Take care and thank you so much... :)

Scarletpeaches	30 Aug 2003
Yep, me again! This quote from Moongold struck me: Perhaps the Tarot images are a mirror through which the Divine speaks? Well I believe that Tarot helps us understand ourselves better, helps us look inside ourselves, brings out the unconscious and if, as the good book says, we are all made in His image, then surely we are only bringing out the hidden part of us that is made in His image, the part that is divine? Whoah, it's half three in the morning and I'm getting heavy! Insomnia does that to me. Normal service will be resumed with my next post, promise!

Scarletpeaches	30 Aug 2003
Poetry is different than novel because it's succinct and often *extremely visual*. It's like writing in visuals, in dream images, instead of play-by-play. I'm not sure how to get quotes from other people in bold writing? But Alissa - I agree with you to some extent on poetry, but there are some novels that are almost poetic in that they made the top of my head come off! Am I allowed to recommend books? If I am, may I recommend 'I Know This Much Is True' by Wally Lamb? He deals with mental illness in such a way that is almost poetry, in fact I think it is. I don't want to go into too much detail as that would spoil it but I never thought anyone could write a novel about a schizophrenic man in this way - yes, I confess, I cried at the end; it was that beautiful! (Please don't tell anyone, they'll think I've gone soft)! I also wanted to say how much I am enjoying reading this thread: however, I HAVE to stop now and try and get some sleep!

Moongold	30 Aug 2003
Hello Scarlet Peaches :) Well you might be going to sleep but you have woken us all here! Of course, this is the opposite side of the world, the antipodes. Sounds almost classic, doesn't it? But it is a good way to lead into this point you raised about poetic/narrative vision. I have read the Wally Lamb book and it is beautiful. I think the author's style is often poetic but the characteristic that enhances the writing is its connection to such a mythical theme. It is two years since I read that book and I don't have a copy with me unfortunately but the theme of mental illness and how it was enacted in the individual and family life is classic. This connection applies to any writing, I think. Somehow the connection lifts the writing and it rolls on a crest across the collective spirit, drawing a life of it's own from this energy. When such truth is spoken it is as though we all unconsciously gasp with recognition, and breathe inspiration into the writing. By *we* I mean that part of us which is spirit or the collective unconscious. Those magical things that bind us together. I think some writers for various reasons have this connection in a very special way. Many poets also. Rilke is a particular favourite of mine. He lived on the edges of the collective consciousness, I think. The beauty of Tarot is that by its archetypal nature it is connected, inbued, with mythology. No wonder it inspires such great art, and no wonder it draws from each of us such profound insight. The collective unconscious offers so much to the artist, whether that person is a writer, dancer, musician or poet. Even to the architect and engineer. For we are really nothing without such connections. I find that deeply poignant. I cannot write only about my own experience. My writing must be connected to a broader issue to have life and meaning. I came back to read this and thought another reader might see an inherent inconsistency in what I've said about looking within and being connected without. There is a stream of connectedness throughout all of this which removes this apparent inconsistency. It could be JMD's living spiritual reality ot AmounrA's sphere. either concept or another altogether. Here is the link to this other discussion: www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16988/archetypes and symbolism/

HOLMES	30 Aug 2003
as a tarot reader who tells his clients that he is not psychic i have come to believe that the proof is in the pudding, i have known things i couldnt' know ( unless i was reading the mind eheh ) about their personal life, example there was a cheat at a party, a rape in one woman life, and an admintance of love at anothe party all for three differnt woman clients. for the actuall tellings of events for the good things you should see the clients go holy cow , and for the bad events i go ,, i dont' know how to say this,, but ,, this has bearing , how much is one willing to know in a tarot reading about their clients, sometimes it can be sad i found. (by the way the things mention above were actual live readings before i joined aeclectic forum and reflects no one in the forum ) even yesterday i asked about the readings i did like two months ago the mother and daughter both said HOLY COW (to paraphrase eheh ) you were right on. even the mother said you numology report was right on to . (for that numerology report i basically copied out of the book and added my commentary based on the questions as to clarify it and make it more .. personal instead of universal ) one thing of note i said to a friend your daughter might be pregant before two years,, and she just might and it been three months. and that was without the tarot cards eheh. i think like scotty who double his work estimates as to appear as a miracle worker ,, i tend t