astrological tarot attributes

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

matfav	03 Sep 2003
A long long time ago the outer planets were not known that being uranus, neptune and pluto. Neptune fits better with the moon In the rider deck it is an eclipsed moon, the twilight zone Uranus I give to the tower, sudden unexpected, the eye of shiva etc (mars only fits if explosive) Pluto to death, ruler of the underworld, hades, transformation death and rebirth

Minderwiz	03 Sep 2003
Well, Uranus was discovered in 1781, Neptune in 1846 and Pluto in 1930 (though the search for the latter two planets had been going on for many years before). The Golden Dawn and indeed others interested in deck design and meanings would have been aware of both Uranus and Neptune but clearly chose not to use them in card associations. My feeling is that this was not for Astrological reasons but for Qabbalistic reasons. There is, of course, no reason why a Tarot deck should be underpinned by the Qabbalah, or Jungian Archetypes or Theosophy or other mystical approach - so if your associations work for you as keys to Tarot reading then go for it.

isthmus nekoi	03 Sep 2003
matfav, out of curiousity who would you then assign to Pisces, Mars and Scorpio?

Minderwiz	03 Sep 2003
There are 22 Tarot Trumps There are 10 planets, 12 signs and 4 elements. The GD used the 7 visible planets, 12 signs and 3 elements (excluding Earth) - if you are going to use the outer planets are you 'ditiching' the three elements used by GD?

jmd	03 Sep 2003
It is difficult to sometimes contribute to threads and remain sensitive to the nuances which may play in people's posts... especially when the thread isn't read on its own merits, but posts from other threads inform what someone may be writing. I'll take matfav's opening post for what it is, and not assume some of his other posts, with which apparent distinct comments seem to be made. If one wants astrological correlations, then a question may very legitimately be asked as to where Uranus and Neptune fit. Pluto one may either include or exclude depending on whether one considers it a planet or not (and if not, and one includes it, then what of Chiron, Ceres, and numerous others). Matfav suggests that Uranus fits with the Tower. If one considers the often worded descriptions of Uranus - social revolution, etc. - then I can see how one may make this correlation. Likewise, the watery and illusory qualities often described of the Moon card can be correlated to Neptune. And of course, Pluto and Death have an apparent and obvious connection. Uranus, however, has other qualities which are reminiscent of the positive attributes of the Hierophant. Neptune of the Emperor. Pluto of the Tower. Again, for different reasons, Uranus reminds one of the Lovers (especially on cards in their more traditional forms of a young man between two women); Neptune also of the Lovers; and Pluto too, holding Persephone as Demeter asks for her return. Here is where astrological (whether planetary or zodiacal) correlations can in fact be very useful, and matfav asks us to consider how these three planets can instruct a deeper understanding of the cards. I would, of course, add that by viewing each card through the lense of each of the elements, planetary and zodiacal qualities, deeper reflections can be made. Hence my hesitation to claim the sole use of one system of instructive correlations over another - even if some does fit better (and in my view, it is certainly not the one provided by the Golden Dawn). Looking forward to reading differing views and added or different insights.

matfav	04 Sep 2003
Pisces the moon Mars the emperor Scorpio - death The tower is more uranus in action sudden unexpected, realisation , the ruler of aquarius Most tarot is based on its placement on the tree of life. I know that different point of view differ but different points of view lead to throught and a richness of different expressions. One need not ditch ones beliefs, yet people do get heated over them.

jmd	04 Sep 2003
Many people do place the cards on the Tree of Life - in various ways. For example, Wirth and others place the first ten Major Arcana cards within the ten Sefirot in their order of emanation. Gray, though adopting the Kircher Tree and its peculiar 'paths', places the cards in quite different ordering to the one postulated by the GD. Crowley, though on the whole following GD assignments, interchanges the Emperor and the Star. I prefer to place the cards, when on the Tree, in pairs within the Sefirot (& Da'at) in ascending fashion... Others have again suggested yet other possible ways. What does the person seeking to gain an understanding of all this do? My suggestion is to NOT try and make those connections but to, rather, study each of Kabalah, Astrology and Tarot independently of each other. For the first, works by A. Kaplan, M. Idel and G. Scholem are core materials. For astrology, numerous materials exist which do not even seem to be aware of the existence of the Tarot. For Tarot, historical materials, mediaeval writings, and a close study of the images and any suggested allegory they seem to indicate may instruct the meditative work I would personally encourage. To assume too closely the correctness of the GD, in my personal view, possibly (and at least for some) hinders the development of the discerning mind. Broader understanding needs to be developed about how and why it makes the specific allocations in order to properly discern its beauty as well as its oversights.

Minderwiz	04 Sep 2003
I agree very much with jmd. I do not use Astrological correspondences, though there are times when I can find a helpful analogy between Astrology and Tarot. As far as I can see, most attempts at allocating correspondences derive from a third way' - linking both Tarot and Astrology to the Qabbalah, or Jung or other system. As jmd says this does not help the novice develop in Tarot or Astrology. Certainly as far as Astrology is concerned there are no mainstream authorities that even consider an Astrology/Tarot correspondence. However, if someone says that their ability to read the cards benefits from such correspondences it is difficult to prove that they are in anyway wrong - though it may be possible to show that they are extremely unconventional (not to say Uranian!). There are also real problems with debating the issue. At one level debate can be highly productive if it is centred on why the GD believed their correspondences to be accurate, or on the issue of other systems based on the Qabbalah and the reasoning behind them. In such cases something of a common basis can be established for the discussion. Thus, for example, we might all be able to agree on the basis of how the GD assigned correspondence or why they swapped Strength and Justice, even if we do not agree with their reasons or choose not to use their system. When the 'correspondences' are made on the basis of preceived affinity, then we are into a discussion of what the symbology of the cards means, what the signs mean, what the planets (and even the issue of what is a 'planet' )mean and what the elements mean and even whether 'affinity' is a proper basis for correspondence. Any one of these could well fill several libraries and still not produce any generally agreed position. I'm sure that will not stop people trying though :)

isthmus nekoi	04 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd I would, of course, add that by viewing each card through the lense of each of the elements, planetary and zodiacal qualities, deeper reflections can be made. Hm yes. This reminds me of how Khatruman wrote a Moon's journey through the arcana instead of the Fool's. The interesting thing is now w/10 planets and 12 signs, we can cover all 22 majors. I haven't seen a deck yet that does this though (although I don't know many decks). I think it's interesting matfav, that you've assigned Neptune to Moon, as it is the modern ruler for Pisces (GD assigns to moon). Pluto, the modern co-ruler of Scorpio (GD assigns to death). Obviously the relation is clear, but leaves one to consider the differences b/w sign and planet.

matfav	04 Sep 2003
The system of astrology, numerology, runes, and an ever stream of metaphysical tools work with how it corresponds to themes within themes within these systems. it is interesting to assign and look to these correspondences. Crowley did a fine job of astrological alignment with the thoth deck. and there are many books which cover these topics well

The astrological tarot attributes thread was originally posted on 03 Sep 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.