Depiction of Women In Tarot - Good or Bad?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

divinerguy	26 Sep 2003
Compass Rose made a point about the portrayal of women in Tarot decks, and it got me to thinking. For the most part, women in Tarot decks are depicted in traditionally defined roles. This holds true even for decks created by female authors and artists. Is the traditional depiction of women in mainstream Tarot decks a bad thing? Are those depictions archetypal of something? Of what? Are the "traditional roles" of women a product of evolution, or is it a cultural thing? Is it something else? Enquiring minds want to know.

truthsayer	26 Sep 2003
a really good question, DG. one to really ponder b/c you are right. women are seen as mothers, wives, homemakers, in generally less dominant roles than men in most tarot decks. occasionally, you'll see a woman warrior as in the sacred circle. in decks where the courts are renamed like the goddess, the queen comes before the king. in the dance of life cards(pretty much a gender baised deck), the courts are broken down into muse, dancer, lover, sage. the world spirit is similarly broke down in the courts. rarely do you see a clothed "star". rarely do you see unclothed men unless you are using the "cosmic tribe". i think it's partly our evolution and partly culture. nowadays, we don't need someone to run the household as a household isn't as time consuming to run. we don't make our soap or have to draw up water from a well or go to a stream to wash clothes by beating them with rocks. we don't need one gender to watch the children so the other can hunt. women don't need to gather roots and berries b/c every thing we need is at the grocery store. (imho, women still have an insatiable craving to gather. why else would we love to shop so much? it's another form of gathering). i'm interested in hearing other views. thanks for bringing this up DG.

Moongold	26 Sep 2003
There is so much flexibility possible in the understanding of the female characters in Tarot that it doesn’t worry me too much. And there are so many different decks with their own interpretive artwork that it doesn’t worry me much either,. I like JMD’s suggestion that each card be explored for what it has to tell us in its own right. Then, he speculates, the archetypal meaning for us individually will emerge. I’m probably misquoting him but that is what I remember. Looking at the Tarot Women: High Priestess, Empress, Strength, Star and Justice I can see qualities in all of them that I love and would want to aspire to. I have the High Priestess quite exalted and can’t think of too many people that I know who would fit the image I have for her. Many of use the image in our lives, however, and think of HP’s special qualities often as we live every day. I know a local Baptist female minister who has some HP qualities in great measure, I think. All the other Tarot women, I think of quite frequently in very different ways. The same goes for the four Queens: they all show qualities which I would aspire to in many situations. To tell the truth, I find it harder to see the qualities attributed to the male characters harder to see as particularly male. It would be interesting to have a discussion about this. What is masculinity today and how is that manifest in Tarot characters?

Shade	27 Sep 2003
I posted about this in the New Decks thread just the other day. http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17750 I really like that some decks are choosing to change up the gender on some cards. The celtic dragon and romany decks have female Magicians. The World spirit changes the gender of bothe the Hermit and Temperence. The Fey has a very fluid treatent of gender adn I thikn it works beautifully. I'm not a prude, a nude Star card is usually so beautiful and so moving but why can't the hanged man go bare (as he did in the original Rohrig). Some of the pro-women decks are great for bringing in balance like the Motherpeace or Daughters of the moon but I just can't into the Barbara Walker Tarot or her I Ching of the Goddess. I'm sure some people love her decks and it's exactly what they are looking for but it seems like more of a victim deck rather than the repressed reclaiming their strength deck.

Moongold	27 Sep 2003
You've reminded me Johnny Voodoo that the Chariot in the new Tarot of Prague is a woman!

baba-prague	27 Sep 2003
and the "Pages" (Tarot of Prague) are all deliberately androgynous, so that you can read them as being male or female as you prefer. We actually did a lot of thinking about gender in this deck, and there are quite a few "switches" just to get a better balance. For example, the figure giving out alms in the Six of Pentacles is a woman, the figure in the Two of Wands is also a woman, and so on - there are quite a few examples. We just wanted to even up the gender balance a little, not to make a deck that was specifically woman-orientated. By the way, the first time I showed our Magician to someone, they assumed it was a woman. Actually, it's a man, but to some extent the figure is androgynous - I was actually very pleased that it could be taken as a woman on first glance. Anyway - interesting topic.

Diana	27 Sep 2003
I don't think we have this problem with Marseilles decks.

Macavity	27 Sep 2003
I think sometimes sex is... overemphasised? I'm not convinced there are as many positive male images - though in fairness, the Devil is often hermaphrodite! ;) But I do have to keep consistently reminding myself that they are Archetypes - Not REALLY (complete) human beings? Perhaps another reason why I personally prefer cartoon-like art and more historical decks... But, there are indeed some interesting cases where the gender of the character has changed: Strength is another? S/he starts(?) as Hercules with Lion, undergoes a diversion via (female = static) "Fortitude" with Column (sometimes lion) but ends up as our much-loved (male = active) lion-wrestlin' Gal! :D Maybe medieval minds didn't worry as much as we do? But gender seemed to be both an integral part of the Archtype or... maybe rather irrelevant. Femininity is perhaps very much part of Archetype in the above example - presumably to suggest subtlety, persistence, mental strength? Perhaps though it also lost some of the Hurculean "good old boy" (nice but dim!) aspect in the process of feminisation? It's all very subtle, isn't it? Note, none of this should be taken (too) personally ;) Does it matter who drives the Chariot? As topical, Boudicca would indeed make a fine(!) charioteer-ess (imo) but, it might also be claimed, that HIS (sic) head as a young king should be later found on Death's killing field? Meddle ye at your peril with this already rather self-consistent system? }) Macavity

Kiama	27 Sep 2003
I have recently thought that the gender is the cards, particularly the Majors, is not meant as a reflection on the female or male gender, but that it simply works on the principle that there are masculine and feminine (NOT male and female: there's a difference!) parts of the Universe... Feminine attributes may include creativity, care, nurture... Whilst masculine attributes may include action, intellect, etc. The Tarot, which traditionally expresses concepts in symbols and archetypes, simply uses a man to symbolise masculine attributes, energies, and concepts, and a woman to symbolise the feminine attributes, energies, and concepts. This is not saying that only women can have feminine attributes, nor that only men can have masculine attributes: it is simply symbolism. It's the same as the fact that a child represents new beginnings, but adults can also encounter new beginnings. So, we have a woman in the Empress card, a card that (to me) suggests nurture and creativity: both feminine aspects. We have a man in the Emperor card, a card that (to me) suggests rational thought, organisation, and action: all masculine aspects. Masculine and feminine in the Tarot deck is simply one way to express the inherent duality within nature and the Universe. So, I think there is a good reason why women should be depicted traditionally in the Tarot deck (I assume by 'traditionally' Divinerguy refers to the fact that it is mostly a woman who is the Empress, Star, Strength, etc and one hardly sees women as High Priests, Charioteers, or Emperors.) It is another symbol that adds to the meaning of each card. Kiama

Diana	27 Sep 2003
Just a thought: It would be quite strange to see an woman depicted as an Emperor, and a man depicted as an Empress. Same with the Queens and Kings.... unless it's a drag-show Tarot deck.

isthmus nekoi	27 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Are those depictions archetypal of something? Of what? Are the "traditional roles" of women a product of evolution, or is it a cultural thing? Is it something else? [/b] Very skeptical of reasons based on biology (ie anatomy is destiny). Not b/c I don't think this is valid, but b/c too many times biology is used as 'scientific proof' to support the dominant ideology, usually to oppress certain groups. But this shouldn't be reason to throw the baby out w/the bathwater........ Sorry doesn't answer the question.... I like to see gender as a part of the symbol. Not the archetype. Symbol is the container, archetype is the content. Containers can change, but the content doesn't. Having said that, form and content are not separate things..... one can say that form creates content, as much as content creates form. (Also, as a rhetorical side note, remember that there are ppl who are born w/both genders, or who are transgendered. Where do they fit in our discrete little categories of male/female? Forget representation of gender, how much of *gender itself* is bio/cultural?)

Lee	27 Sep 2003
I don't take it as a given that traditional Tarot decks show women in traditionally defined ways or as less dominant than men. Taking my cue from Diana, who I think makes a good point, in the Marseilles Majors it seems to me that more often than not, women occupy positions of power. If we look at the men, we have the Fool, Bateleur, Emperor, Pope, Chariot, Hermit, Hanged Man, and Devil. It could be argued that the Fool, the Hermit, the Hanged Man, and the Devil can't really be counted as positions of power. The Devil is perhaps a special case, he's clearly male and in a position of power, but is presented in such a negative light that he seems pretty much a parody of male power. So this leaves us with Magician, Emperor, Hierophant and Chariot as the male power cards. Contrasted to that, every card whose major figure is female is a power card. Popess, Empress, Strength, Justice, Temperance, Star, and World. That's seven female power cards to four male power cards. It could also be argued that the Tarot, if I may anthropomorphize it, is clearly taking the viewpoint that the kinds of power demonstrated by the women are spiritually more preferable than those demonstrated by the men. (I'm not complaining about this, by the way, I like the deck gets it about right!) I'd also like to point out that the Court cards are not numbered, so we cannot assume that the Queen takes a back seat to the King. -- Lee

Shade	27 Sep 2003
Lee, I have also wondered about the way that the female power cards are seen as "good" where we sometimes hear the Emperor as overbearing and uncaring or the Chariot (when male) as being vioent, or thoughtless. I like a good balance between tradition and the new stuff in tarot decks (one of thea reasons i liekd the World Spirit so much). I don't want a deck that has to be a carbon copy of all that went before it and I do't want something that has no sense of tarot identity that just appeals to what the author felt that day. If we cling too tightly to our metaphors and couldn't possibly imagine a tart deck where the Hierophant was a woman than something is wrong. I would also like to see more innovation as far as sexual orientation in cards. Way for example can't the couple on the two of cups be women and the ten of cups be men? Would taht kill it for you? I can see keeping the lovers the way it is for purposes of alchemical allegory and whatnot but why not the minors? More decks play with gender tahn I had thought though. I once posted on here saying I'd never seen a female devil card and folks fired off about 10 decks in the first day.

Voodoo_Shaman	28 Sep 2003
In the New Orleans Voodoo Tarot, by Sallie Ann Glassman, women have a strong and equal presence as do the male. Infect the traditional “Hanged Man” in the NOVT is depicted as a Female Zombie. The Chariot in this case, “Dance” is depicted as a High Priestess “Mambo” surrounded by other dancers, and a powerful Spirit guiding her, is also female. Women in this deck are as strong as the males, to name a few. the cards “7 Petro” 7 of Swords depicts the High Spirits Lua Goddess, Erzulie La Flambeau ready for the attack with two daggers one in each hand. The Lord of the Woods Gran Ibo is seen as a small bird as he tells his messages to a larger woman sitting in her house within the swamps. Also another thing I found interesting is that in the Santeria suite. (The suites are named after four great Religious Nations, Congo, Petro, Rada, and Santeria) In the Santeria suite, God the Source of Creation is called Olodumare, in that card it is depicted as a Womans eye shedding her tears over the earth. Olodumare is also part of a trinity, in Santeria, the other part of the trinity, or actually one of them “Olofin” the Lord of this Earth, is depicted as a woman who is pregnant, within her womb lies the earth, while she stands in the middle of the cosmos. If you have no knowledge of Voodoo, Santeria and the other paths, this deck would be very difficult and confusing to understand, but it is an interesting deck to own in a collection

Requiella	28 Sep 2003
Being one to put more stock in "nurture" than "nature" explanations for sex differences (although I do not deny the influence of each), the use of gender in Tarot is a topic that I think about quite a bit. I like what Isthmus Nekoi says here: Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Very skeptical of reasons based on biology (ie anatomy is destiny). Not b/c I don't think this is valid, but b/c too many times biology is used as 'scientific proof' to support the dominant ideology, usually to oppress certain groups. Absolutely! Quote: I like to see gender as a part of the symbol. Not the archetype. Symbol is the container, archetype is the content. Containers can change, but the content doesn't. Continuing this train of thought, or to perhaps spell it out a bit more, our conceptions of 'masculine' and 'feminine' are always in state of flux, especially these days. What was regarded as 'feminine' 100 years ago is not regarded as so now, at least not to the same degree. For instance: women were discouraged from working outside the home or even pursuing higher ed due to the perception that we are incapacitated by our monthly cycles. This is also a great example of how biological arguments have been used to maintain and justify the status quo. So, the point is that traits and qualities that a society considers 'feminine' or 'masuline' may be projected onto certain cards (The Empress, for example, as nurturer). As these definitions change, however, our depictions of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' will change as well. This is being reflected in all of the new variations on the traditional tarot decks these days. For instance, I've heard that in the Quest deck (I don't own this deck), the Lovers card is much more ambiguous, thus leaving it open to different interpretations of sexual orientation. Another example appears in the Tarot of Transformation, which I do own. In this deck, the court cards have been changed to "teacher, healer, server, and master," largely in an effort to get away from the traditional gendered and hierarchical ordering of KQKP.

Requiella	28 Sep 2003
While I enjoy using the traditional decks as part of my study of the "pure" Tarot, I very much value innovation and improvement. True, the Tarot was designed with a particular gender structure, and I believe that you have to study this structure to completely understand Tarot. Having said this, though, Tarot, like anything else, was created within a particular cultural/temporal/political milieu, and that product will be more or less transferrable to different (e.g., newer) contexts. For something like the Tarot to be meaningful for people today (and by that I mean *all* people), perhaps it should evolve and change with the times. Maybe one reason (and there are no doubt several others!) we have so many decks to choose from these days is because concepts like gender are in such a state of flux: The Tarot market offers something for just about everybody.

baba-prague	29 Sep 2003
__________ So, the point is that traits and qualities that a society considers 'feminine' or 'masuline' may be projected onto certain cards (The Empress, for example, as nurturer). As these definitions change, however, our depictions of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' will change as well. _____________ Yes, nicely put. I remember the debate in the UK in the 1970s (honestly as late as that!) about whether women could be newsreaders. The anti brigade said that they could not read news on British television because it would be impossible for British people to accept serious news items being read out by a woman. I am not making this up - it really was quite a big debate at the time. So, I agree that certain traits like this (i.e. the notion that only a man can deal with serious issues like politics) do get projected by society. Thank goodness, the definitions and assumptions change over time as views evolve. By the way, I don't think this is just about woman being suppressed. I think it can be quite restrictive for many men to be told by implication that only women can be "Empress" type nurturers. I did a reading the other day for a friend who is a serious body-builder and LOOKs very macho, but his "self" card came up as The Empress, and that made perfect sense if you know him. I know that you can take the "traditional" images and read them as principles and concepts, not as actual depictions of gender, but it is sometimes easier to do this (or at least usefully thought-provoking) when the depictions are not traditional. So - I'm really glad to see decks that play with gender - as well as others that stick to the traditions.

full deck	29 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by baba-prague __________ So, the point is that traits and qualities that a society considers 'feminine' or 'masuline' may be projected onto certain cards (The Empress, for example, as nurturer). As these definitions change, however, our depictions of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' will change as well. . . . So - I'm really glad to see decks that play with gender - as well as others that stick to the traditions. You remind me of BoomVoom's deck he is working on and how some of us teased him about some of the women in his majors looked a bit like guys in drag! It was actually very droll and pretty unique too . . . I hope he is still working on it.

Requiella	29 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by baba-prague By the way, I don't think this is just about woman being suppressed. I think it can be quite restrictive for many men to be told by implication that only women can be "Empress" type nurturers. I completely agree. When individual people are held to rigid gender role standards, we *all* lose.

ihcoyc	30 Sep 2003
At least a part of the background of the female images in the Majors is that the Tarot was invented by people who spoke a Romance language. In Latin and its daughters, you have many abstract nouns --- fortitudo, iustitia, temperantia --- that are feminine in gender and so lend themselves to being depicted as allegorical female figures. There's a long history of this in the ancient world; abstract concepts venerated as deities turned into female figures, like Nike/Victory. I suspect this is one reason Hercules -- an obvious choice for a picture representing Strength -- was ousted from the Strength card, in favour of a female figure. And let's face it, the woman shown there is a much more complex symbol than she would be if she were a man.

divinerguy	30 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc And let's face it, the woman shown there [strength] is a much more complex symbol than she would be if she were a man. Yeah, I guess we guys are pretty much dullards and simpletons.

ihcoyc	30 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Yeah, I guess we guys are pretty much dullards and simpletons. Well, I know I am. But more importantly, Hercules wrestling the lion is an image of physical prowess and conquest by greater force. As such the image it suggests might be partially redundant to the Chariot. The woman who breaks a pillar or overcomes the lion suggests strength of a more complicated sort.

divinerguy	01 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc The woman who breaks a pillar or overcomes the lion suggests strength of a more complicated sort. Do we assume this this simply because of her gender, falling back on the stereotype of a physically weaker sex using guile to prevail against overwhelming power? I'm saying this becaue I think the analysis assumes that females are the weaker gender, and I'm not ready to concede that point. I lion or a pillar is a lot stronger than either gender. If we want a card to represent another type of character attribute, such as the use of reason to overcome superior strength, then I think the strength card is the wrong place to do it.

Dark_angel	01 Oct 2003
Hey, I've been reading this with interest, so thought I'd put in my two cents. Firstly, the issue of biological/cultural influences on gender. There have been fairly well-publicised and documented cases in which it has been strongly suggested that it is nigh on impossible to impose a gender upon a child; several have had to undergo gender reassignment because people attempted to do this. There have also been anatomical studies which have shown biological differences between male and female rats; this is very likely applicable to humans. So, I believe that we are born with an innate sense of our sex, but that how we express it can be influenced by society. For example, a girl raised in a family of boys may act differently from a girl raised in a family of girls, or an only child. I think Kiama put it brilliantly; the concepts of masculine and feminine rather than male and female. It would be nice to imagine that we could look beyond an individual's sex in looking at them as a person, but our culture is such that this is probably impossible. To me, the Strength card isn't about physical strength at all (my interpretations of the Majors lean towards the psychological rather than the material), instead, it shows someone who does not NEED physical strength. They have such inner strength that they can master their fears and achieve things that an onlooker would think impossible. I don't see the lion and the person fighting; rather I see them as one entity. The lion is the person's passion and anger, and the person is strong enough to work with it rather than try to fight it. So, the gender of the person doesn't really matter. However, much though we hate to admit it, stereotypes are so ingrained, that the image of a loin-clothed Hercules lifting a lion above his head would not be able to embody the spirit of the card unless the people looking at it knew of his tales and character. Just my opinion. xxx

truthsayer	01 Oct 2003
i generally interpret strength to mean gentleness and innocence controlling passion and awareness or even both working together to achieve balance. perhaps even male and female characteristics forced to reach a balance. i don't think women are the weaker sex. i have beat my husband in arm wrestling! LOL

WolfSpirit	01 Oct 2003
Depiction of women in tarot good or bad ? Hm I would say neutral, the classic way they are represented is what I am used to and I learnt to see them not as people but as the archetypes they represent. I think it is ok like that, but like many have already voiced here, I would enjoy decks that play around with it a bit - it must be possible to have a deck with a male empress that does not look weak or effeminate and a female emperor that does not look like a power-mad shrew. And yes, I think it would be possible to have a man in the strength-card but not a Hercules-type, there are lots of men who are not like that who would do for this card. To make a deck interesting for me though, I think it should not advertise itself as reversing genders, but be a good deck that just reverses a few cards almost unnoticed ;)

Hedera	01 Oct 2003
The Cosmic Tribe tarot has a man in the Strength card - with a female lion. I think it works terrifically!

catti	04 Oct 2003
im a bit late coming to this thread but going to throw in my $.02 anyway i am comfortable with the "classic" tarot representations of male and female for the reasons initially stated by Diana i would add that Tarot for me is a reflection of the culture/environment we live in, for me that is what makes it a useful tool. The reality is we live in a male oriented society where (in general) men are stronger (physically ) than women. most of the world is like this. Newer decks with reversed roles and more androgyenous figures (imo) are good for meditation and personal use but to use a deck for the "massess" the deck needs to reflect the world we live in, not the world we might like to live in. Otherwise people have a difficult time understanding, it doesnt "click" , so that is why the classic picture of strength ( a woman gentling a lion) works...anybody can look at it and get the impression of beauty and purity conquering savage force and violence... I am glad women and men are different, the same i am glad we can all agree to disagree on Aeclectic. It makes things much more interesting.

Layla	04 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I don't take it as a given that traditional Tarot decks show women in traditionally defined ways or as less dominant than men. Taking my cue from Diana, who I think makes a good point, in the Marseilles Majors it seems to me that more often than not, women occupy positions of power. If we look at the men, we have the Fool, Bateleur, Emperor, Pope, Chariot, Hermit, Hanged Man, and Devil. It could be argued that the Fool, the Hermit, the Hanged Man, and the Devil can't really be counted as positions of power. The Devil is perhaps a special case, he's clearly male and in a position of power, but is presented in such a negative light that he seems pretty much a parody of male power. So this leaves us with Magician, Emperor, Hierophant and Chariot as the male power cards. Contrasted to that, every card whose major figure is female is a power card. Popess, Empress, Strength, Justice, Temperance, Star, and World. That's seven female power cards to four male power cards. It could also be argued that the Tarot, if I may anthropomorphize it, is clearly taking the viewpoint that the kinds of power demonstrated by the women are spiritually more preferable than those demonstrated by the men. (I'm not complaining about this, by the way, I like the deck gets it about right!) I'd also like to point out that the Court cards are not numbered, so we cannot assume that the Queen takes a back seat to the King. -- Lee Not to mention that the feminine elements of water and earth end in fulfillment, overflowing, wealth, while the masculine elements end in disaster, oppression, depression. I've always found this difference startling and am yet to find a proper answer to this. I think the reprsentation of women in traditional tarot is not problematic, especially compared with some other spiritual practices. As for this topic, I agree with Kiama. We shouldn't confuse the feminine and masculine as 2 principles, 2 polarities, with biological sex. We all consist of both polarities, only one is sometimes more repressed than the other, usually due to cultural and sociological reasons. I actually prefer if the feminine polarity with its attributes is symbolized by a woman, and the masculine polarity with men. But from the point of view of doing away with the stereotypes and the narrow and limiting association of feminine traits with women and masculine traits with men, it might be wiser to portray them as androgynous or play around with the symbols, to shatter pre-conceived notions and weaken the imprisoning associations. So I have no probem with artists exerimenting with gender and creating new concepts, indeed I find it inspirational and provocative (in a good way).

Hedera	04 Oct 2003
LOL! *waves to Layla* Nice quote! :D :D

Layla	04 Oct 2003
LMAO! :laugh: What are the odds? *waves back*

Alex	08 Oct 2003
Same seems to be true for men, isn't it? How many roles are there to play anyway? Most women's roles are complementary of men's roles, so I guess it should e 1:1 The only aspect that is not complementary, I think, is the sexual aspect. While a promiscous man is a "Don Ruan", the equivalent role for a woman is "whore". Alex. Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy For the most part, women in Tarot decks are depicted in traditionally defined roles. This holds true even for decks created by female authors and artists.

Nevada	09 Oct 2003
I find that most of the decks I see are well balanced as far as female and male roles and images. I do prefer decks that have a balance of court cards--for instance King, Queen, Prince, and Princess as opposed to King, Queen, Knight, and Knave or Page. I find the best balance in Thoth and Tarot of the Old Path. To tell you the truth, I don't worry about this so much in Tarot. I'm much more concerned about the roles of men and women that are portrayed in television and advertising (at least here in the US), because it's still so gender stereotyped, and that is what children are exposed to the most. For instance--and this is just one example of many different sterotypes--most of the household cleaning product ads I see portray women doing the housework. If men are doing it, they're shown as incredibly stupid about it, or it's portrayed as a joke for a man to do the cleaning. Compared to that, Tarot is pretty much free of stereotypes, and as Moongold said, the meanings and interpretations are flexible in Tarot. A lot of the balance in Tarot can depend on the reader. Nevada34

moonlitpath	11 Oct 2003
I don't mind the way women are portrayed in traditional ways in tarot as much as it irritates me that in a lot of decks (most?) there are nude women when all the men are clothed. I'm no prude and I dont' have a problem with nudity when it makes sense, but most of the time is doesn't (to me). I'm working with the Hermetic deck mostly, right now and the only thing that bugs me about it is that all the princess cards (YOUNG women) are topless and it just seems to me that it would have taken nothing from the deck to have them completely clothed. The star has a nude woman on it, of course, but its a smaller image and somewhat abstract and its not the major focus of the card. All the princess ones feature women who take up most of the card and their breasts are larger than life right smack in the middle of the card. The Hanged Man IS (surprise, surprise) completely nude but he's facing the back of the card (but you knew that). ;-)

Dark_angel	11 Oct 2003
One of my favourite decks, the Adrian Tarot, has more male nudity in it than female (even The Star's clothed), and I don't feel that this has any negative message about men. It's overall an extremely classy deck; I don't think you'll find a single image of genitalia in the entire deck - some characters are naked, but they're always covered up in some way. xxx

catti	11 Oct 2003
dark angel Quote: some characters are naked, but they're always covered up in some way. :) that just struck me as an uniquely british sense of nudity :joke:

Alex	11 Oct 2003
Oh, I gotta check that out. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Dark_angel One of my favourite decks, the Adrian Tarot, has more male nudity in it than female (even The Star's clothed), and I don't feel that this has any negative message about men. xxx

Dark_angel	11 Oct 2003
Maybe that's why I like it so much! lol. I don't like decks with full nudity; I don't think it's necessary to express the meaning of the cards. Guess that's just the Brit in me! xxx

Requiella	12 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by moonlitpath [b] I don't mind the way women are portrayed in traditional ways in tarot as much as it irritates me that in a lot of decks (most?) there are nude women when all the men are clothed. I'm no prude and I dont' have a problem with nudity when it makes sense, but most of the time is doesn't (to me). I agree. The fact is, whether it's easy to acknowledge or not, that we live in an androcentric culture in which the male-as-consumer/female-as-commodity relationship is alive and well (just take the porn industry, for instance). One deck that is especially disturbing to me is the Giger deck. There's a heavy bondage theme, and judging from the cards I've seen, it's women who are having things done *to* them--the word that comes to mind is "receptacle." I anticipate some disagreement here, but imo, the Giger deck is extremely hostile toward women.

divinerguy	13 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Requiella I anticipate some disagreement here, but imo, the Giger deck is extremely hostile toward women. I can't say much either way, because I've never seen the Giger. However, I do see that decks such as Daughters of the Moon and the Motherpeace (just examples, I know there are other decks), push a discriminatory agenda by excluding males from the decks, which I find just as offensive as a negative portrayal. I don't see these decks as an exploration of feminine energy. I believe they originated as a type of protective mechanism; as a way of avoiding problems related to a male dominated society. While self-defense is an okay thing, these decks don't address gender-based discrimination, they merely avoid them. I see this avoidance as being one step removed from victimiization. Simply put, I think that in great part, using feminine energy as an excuse to exclude males is wrong. You can see it in these decks and also in Dianic Wicca. In my view, sham exclusions are the same as discrimination. Male-only country clubs and fraternal organizations are routinely villified in the press and the justice system for excluding women. Women have no right to complain about these inequities while at the same time, practicing them. Segregation is not the answer, its the symptom of a greater problem. If we, as a society, are to get past these fundamental gender barriers, at least two things must change. Men must stop objectifying women, and women must abandon the role of victim. Women must empower themselves, while recognizing the duality of our species. Men must recognize both the reality of women as an equal in our society, as well as the gender specific roles of each sex. We cannot, as a species, survive if we exclude or demean the other gender, solely because of their gender.

Dark_angel	13 Oct 2003
I agree that it is wrong to judge people based on their appearance or their gender. Also, I've seen the Giger deck, and I'm confused as to why so many people rave about it. The cards aren't, as far as I can see, particularly evocative of the meanings and archetypes of tarot, and are very disturbing and anti-women (anyone who's puzzled, go to Tarotgarden and have a look, especially at the Hanged Woman... now THAT'S sick and wrong). On a more light-hearted note, research is being conducted into reproducing in same-sex couples - we could have a true battle of the sexes and the winner would still be able to carry on the human race! lol. ....but... who would kill the spiders/ carry the shopping/ bring us chocolate/ play football with us.... and all the other wonderful things men do.... we need our men! Luv, Fi. xxx

Requiella	14 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy We cannot, as a species, survive if we exclude or demean the other gender, solely because of their gender. This is a good point; I agree. However, what is getting lost here is the fact that women are *reacting* to the situation of oppression by men. When one is a member of a lower status group, society does not afford one many acceptable avenues of reaction. Women who point out the problems with the status quo are labeled "whiners" with a "victim mentality." Women who go out and compete with men for the same jobs, etc., are labeled "butch feminazis who are trying to take away men's jobs." Only women who play roles designated by the status quo are "okay." Quote: Men must stop objectifying women, and women must abandon the role of victim... Men must recognize both the reality of women as an equal in our society, as well as the gender specific roles of each sex. I'll be post-feminist in the post-patriarcy. :) (not my words, but good ones)

Dark_angel	14 Oct 2003
I don't know how relevant this is, but I spend a lot of my time in the company of males, both at work and at home, and I have never experienced sexism. At university, my closest friends on my course (and the people I work best with) are male, my current flatmates are male, and ninety-nine percent of my friends are male; I would say that I have maybe five female friends, compared with hordes of guys (not that I'm a babe or anything, far from it!, I just have always had more male friends than female friends). Granted, I work and am studying in a 'feminine' profession (medicine), but discrimination based on gender has never been an issue for me. If anything, females discriminate against me for my differences from them, rather than males discriminating because I'm female. Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that sexism does exist, and is the root of some horrific tragedies, both here and abroad, but I feel it has to be said that not all men are evil patriarchs and not all females are part of a bonded sister hood that must fight to overcome sexism. The way to a truly equal society is to recognise the attributes and equality of every individual within it, not to fight fire with fire. xxx

WolfSpirit	14 Oct 2003
I don't like decks with only women in them, the only use I could find for them would be in comparison with another deck maybe. Women are not always set back by men; sometimes they are set back by other women. For example: an ex-colleague of mine, who was very pretty and always thinking about her looks, would judge all other women by their appearance and as she was pretty herself and very aware of it, her remarks like "o, your diet does not seem to be working, does it ?" really hurt other women (silly though it may seem), if those remarks came from a man they would not have that impact because we would call them male chauvinist. Women are often harsher towards each other than men, there is no big sisterhood of women, but at best you can have good female friends you can count on.

The Depiction of Women In Tarot - Good or Bad? thread was originally posted on 26 Sep 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.