Pomegranates and pillars and Lizards...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

gonkulator	14 Sep 2003
I am referencing the Universal Waite deck, as illustrated by Pamela Colman Smith. Surely I am noting features others have seen before, but I note: II. The high priestess is seated between pillars -- in the UW deck, clearly labelled with Masonic imagery -- the Joachim & Boaz labelled pillars, etc. Note the tapestry behind the figure. V. The Hierophant is seated between two pillars [is it only me who sees this figure as one of fading ineffectuality?] X. The wheel of fortune -- anyone who has the common currency of the Hebric characters and divisions of the wheel on this card I welcome their response. To me this is somehow related to the pillar theme. XI. Justice is seated between two pillars Also observed: I note also II. the high priestess the background tapestry. At first glance these are flowers, but note the stems above. To me these are split fruit, and with their multiple seeds revealed, pommegranites. 0. the fool, note his garment has similar imagery of split fruit -- not flowers. [why does the fool get such elegant clothes?] III. the empress -- her gown appears as flowers, but again, they are split fruit of the pommegranite. There is even a fruit on the ground beneath her garment. VIII. Strength -- here the imagery is more like flowers, but very much identifiable with the images described above. I. the magician -- these are clearly flowers, rose blossoms among lillies. IX of swords -- one of the most disturbing cards in the UW deck, clearly an image of anguish -- features the flower rather than split fruit image. Yet, both the magician and IX of swords seem to have the same style, and derivation from the fruit. Lizards in the midst: King, Knight, and Page of Wands clearly have related Lizard motifs on their clothes Grapes Abound: The King of Pentacles is robed in grapes; IX of Pentacles enjoys falconry in a grape arbor; IV of roods enjoys a minor celebration of grapes and harvest as do III of cups Piscene is the place to be: The knight of cups has obvious fish imagery on his garment; The king of cups has a dolphin like deep sea fish entering the card V of pentangles must be the most disturbing card in the deck! It seems like an anomaly to all others. II of roods seems to have the world in his hands; with un-split fruit, an the flower imagery... Your comments are eagerly sought!

Moongold	14 Sep 2003
Greetings Gonkulator, I'm not sure what you are asking for here, so you run a risk of getting superfluous information. I read another post of yours about symbolism. Well, the pomegranite in Tarot can symbolise a few things. It can be a symbol of fertility and receptivity and is therefore appropriately depicted on the Empress's gown. Its appearance in the veil on the High Priestess card indicates, I think, the femininity of the High Priestess and the sacredness of female sexuality - the connections between the spirit and the flesh. Symbols can be universal but are inevitably and appropriately interpreted individually by readers. This is my take. Someone else might have other insights. More about the pomegranite......The Empress is thought to repesent the Goddess Demeter whose daughter Persphone was kidnapped by Hades and forced to live in the Underground. Whilst there she ate forbidden fruit, pomegramites, and was thereafter only allowed to return intermittently to the outside world. This is how the seasons began. Perephone, by the way, is represented by the Star in Tarot. This is a beginning someone else may pick up the rest. Many blessings

Sulis	14 Sep 2003
Hi gonkulator, welcome to the forums. Have you noticed that the pomegranites on the High Priestesses viel are arranged in the pattern of the Tree of Life? The lizards on the clothes of the wand court cards are salamanders which in legend are supposed to be born from fire. The salamanders on the Kings' robe are pictured with their tales in their mouths forming a circle of infinity, sybolising maturity as opposed to the salamanders on the robes of the Knight and the Page. There is also a salamander on the throne of the King. Love and light Crystalmynx xx

catboxer	14 Sep 2003
Gonkulator: The Rider-Waite-Smith pack is not a deck with any historical pedigree. It's a modern development, and as such breaks with rather than carries forward the historical content of the cards. The High Priestess in particular, is a purely modern artifact. In all tarot decks produced up until the late 19th century, that card was a female pope (Papesse). The renaming of the picture was one of several lame attempts by occultists to ascribe a pre-Christian origin to the tarot deck, and imbue it with a mysterious and extremely ancient history. As far as I can tell, the symbolism of Waite/Smith's High Priestess card indicates that she's a cocktail waitress at that famous night spot, B.J. Pomegranate's.

Moongold	14 Sep 2003
Ah Catboxer.............????? Rider Waite Smith created a tarot which was much more accessible to more people and that can't be a bad thing. I suspect the popularization of Tarot has enabled the traditional decks to survive. Contemporary Tarot has some really beautiful art work and symbolism. Patsy Colman Smith's art work and the symbolism of the Golden Dawn were appropriate to those times, as that of the various artists of Marseilles type decks were to theirs.

Kiama	14 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold More about the pomegranite......The Empress is thought to repesent the Goddess Demeter whose daughter Persphone was kidnapped by Hades and forced to live in the Underground. Whilst there she ate forbidden fruit, pomegramites, and was thereafter only allowed to return intermittently to the outside world. This is how the seasons began. Perephone, by the way, is represented by the Star in Tarot. This is a beginning someone else may pick up the rest. Many blessings This is an interesting take... I like it. I've always seen the High Priestess as Persephone, the Goddess descending into the 'Underworld' or 'dark side' of human nature, the side that is not so rational and not so easily accepted... The side of psychic activity and intuition. (These are to me, qualities imbued in the HPS card.) So to me, the Pomegranates in the HPS card are linked to the story of Persephone, where Persephone ate the seeds of the pomegranate, and by so doing effectively gained knowledge of the 'dark side': the psychic, the intuition. Lizards on the Wands cards to me represent the Fire element, as they are salamanders which are traditional animals used to represent this element. Grapes to me are the basis for wine, and win is the basis for celebration, so they seem to be well placed in cards such as the 3 of Cups, 9 of Pentacles, and King of Coins. The King of Coins I have always seen as Dionysus aswell, and Dionysus was the God of Wine. :D Catboxer is correct that the RWS deck has no historical pedigree, however I think that it is still a useful deck for many people simply because it works for them. Tarot was never going to stay static, and as such it changed over the years (Some would call it a shame, some would call it evolution! ;)) The changes made with the RWS deck may certainly have been, as catboxer says, however it seems to have worked, somehow, somewhere long the line. Well, apart from the fact that it's a downright ugly deck. ;) Kiama

Minderwiz	14 Sep 2003
Catboxer, I sympathise with your views, I have similar problems in Astrology. Around the mid nineteenth century people who should have known better started ignoring history and suggesting that Uranus should rule Aquarius and Neptune should rule Pisces, when Saturn and Jupiter had done a perfectly good job for over two thousand years and had definite historic pedigrees. :) Then in the twentieth century they made Pluto ruler of Scorpio and introduced the Astrological Alphabet which had the effect of making the fourth house the house of the mother, when for two thousand years it had been the house of the father and clearly still should be. And they began sticking all this psychology in, and putting archetypes everywhere. :) I went back and started looking at real astrology as practiced in the seventeenth century (about the time of the Marseille deck) but then I found out that the astrology practiced in the eleventh century was significantly different, and then that the astrology before the first century was different from that. The trouble with history I found was that it insisted on changing over time. New developments come in, some don't last others become part of the 'tradition' but when a new development comes in it doesn't have a historical pedigree. Even the Marseilles deck at one time didn't have a historical pedigree - though you might argue it was not such a leap as Rider Waite. Even worse some changes were larger than others, so sometimes there were quite substantial changes - were these breaks with the proper traditional development or simply evolutionary leaps? That really is the problem for traditionalists (and I count myself as one) - its difficult at the time to know whether something is a deviation from the main stream, or the main stream changing its path. Our one hope is to keep 'history' alive and accessible

catboxer	14 Sep 2003
Minderwiz: You're absolutely right on. The question is always whether change, which is inevitable, harmonizes with established tradition, or overturns it. By the way, I probably should not have been so vociferous in my initial response on this thread, but it was originally posted in the history section, and the RWS is not a historical deck. However, I didn't notice that a) the originator of the thread is a newcomer, and b) the moderators had already moved it to the right place. Your comments about the Marseille decks are perceptive also, although there is reason to believe that Marseille-style cards go back a long, long way. A Marseille style two of coins, with the maker's name and the date 1499 was found at Sforza Castle in about 1900. It's the most tantalizing clue so far leading to speculation about the great age of that style. With regard to astrology, I've often wondered about the adjustments that have occurred in the last hundred years, not being any kind of expert myself. It seems to me that a lot of the changes have been attempts to adjust to the heliocentric universe and the discovery of new planets. But I wonder, doesn't the old geocentric universe still have some validity for divinatory purposes? I mean, looking at it one way, the universe is still geocentric in the human mind, because we're seeing it from earth. The sun and moon could still be considered planets according to this scheme, because they appear to go around us. Just curious.

Cerulean	14 Sep 2003
I never did address Steve's questions! Sorry about that. 1. Based on your questions, the twentieth century tarot of the English school is your area of interest. Christine Payne Tower's essays of the English School is available for viewing free at www.tarot.com. I found this in the last paragraph of the Fool description, found in her discussion of the major cards: http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/li...says/majorcards "...Not until the twentieth century do you see the Waite image of the soul before its fall into matter, untainted by contact with the city and its ills. Modern decks take from this image the mountainside scene, the butterfly, the potential misplaced step that will send him tumbling, all on faith that this is a historical Fool image. In truth, the Fool was meant to represent already fallen humanity preparing to take the first step toward self knowledge, and eventually, The Gnosis. " She explains the cards in a way that those who enjoy the decorative symbolism of the Rider Waite can appreciate. www.tarot.com has not only the Universal Waite, all 78 cards, but the 1971, 1992 version of the Rider Waite, full 78 cards for you to look at and essays of many different historical periods by Bob O' Neill, that covers symbolism from the earliest cards. If you look at Christine Payne Tower's essays first, with your Universal Waite, it may make more sense. 2.I think there are also online guides to the Pictorial Key to the Tarot and Golden Dawn texts, which I will post here after I find the links. It is historical, in a sense, as it is the 1911 interpretation by Waite about the cards that Pamela Colman Smith designed with him: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkttp.htm It comes from this site: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/ Holly Volley is beginning to scan the different versions of the Rider Waite cards so you can see the difference between the original 1909 and other modern versions of the Rider Waite. 3. If you are looking for simpler books that will analyze symbolism of the Rider Waite style of deck, Tracey Porter's Tarot Companion, copyright 2000 from Llewellyn Publications does have symbolism listings such as Pomegranates, Salamanders, etc., and the 1997 Thinking Tarot by Edward A. Aviza only reviews the Rider Waite, but it's descriptive summary analyzes the key symbols of each card in the way you are talking about : Blue Sky, Lizards, Pillars, Pomegranates, etc... 4. I also discovered the Albano Waite, copyright 1991, has clearer coloring for me, although some don't like it. The flowers on the Fool's robe, the palms and pomegranates for the High Priestess, etc., are much clearer for me to pick out. Best wishes and hope this is more helpful, Mari Hoshizaki

Minderwiz	15 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catboxer With regard to astrology, I've often wondered about the adjustments that have occurred in the last hundred years, not being any kind of expert myself. It seems to me that a lot of the changes have been attempts to adjust to the heliocentric universe and the discovery of new planets. But I wonder, doesn't the old geocentric universe still have some validity for divinatory purposes? I mean, looking at it one way, the universe is still geocentric in the human mind, because we're seeing it from earth. The sun and moon could still be considered planets according to this scheme, because they appear to go around us. Just curious. I use a geocentric universe for the reasons you've given and I use old rulerships and often use traditional methods of divination. I believe there is much we can learn from studying the history of Astrology and from studying the history of Tarot. For both Astrology and Tarot history is important, and understanding of history enables better judgement/evaluation of the present and a deeper knowledge. I think tarot is more liable to this because there is not an easily acccesible library of its past. Whilst someone (such as Waite) is free to design and rationalise their own decks and may well enrich the Tarot tradition by so doing (though obviously that is a matter ofargument) - Knowing about the origins and traditions may make for a more informed design - even if the designer decides to reject tradition, at least they have thought about it and have reasons for so doing. OK I realise that for some the history side may be as interesting as watching paint dry and they are concerned only with the here an now but for me history is important, even if it is not of ultimate importance.

Diana	15 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz OK I realise that for some the history side may be as interesting as watching paint dry and they are concerned only with the here an now but for me history is important, even if it is not of ultimate importance. If we do not know where we come from, we cannot understand who we are. And it is rather unlikely that we will know where we are heading and may just head up on the wrong route. And then we can be spoonfed anything and we will swallow it without giving it a thought. Someone who has never tasted proper food, will even believe that MacDonalds serves food..... Now, if you have tasted proper food, and then decide that you like the MacDonalds stuff-to-eat better, that's different. You know what food was originally, but you prefer the modern stuff. That's freewill. And a matter of taste (or a lack of it).

Rusty Neon	31 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by catboxer As far as I can tell, the symbolism of Waite/Smith's High Priestess card indicates that she's a cocktail waitress at that famous night spot, B.J. Pomegranate's. This priceless contribution by catboxer to tarot lore was brought to my attention today at the Ottawa Tarot Group meeting. Live long and prosper, catboxer. I wanted to bring it up for any newer members.

OakDragon	31 Oct 2004
This is an interesting thread... Quote: Originally posted by catboxer Gonkulator: The Rider-Waite-Smith pack is not a deck with any historical pedigree. It's a modern development, and as such breaks with rather than carries forward the historical content of the cards. The High Priestess in particular, is a purely modern artifact. In all tarot decks produced up until the late 19th century, that card was a female pope (Papesse). The renaming of the picture was one of several lame attempts by occultists to ascribe a pre-Christian origin to the tarot deck, and imbue it with a mysterious and extremely ancient history. As far as I can tell, the symbolism of Waite/Smith's High Priestess card indicates that she's a cocktail waitress at that famous night spot, B.J. Pomegranate's. But it begs the question, at least to me, just what "tradition" does the "Papess" come from? A female Pope? That's one I'm not familiar with. Admittedly it's less sexist that way, which is a good thing, but I would not have expected to find such a name in a historical deck, since Christian teachings of the time, as far as I know, were rather sexist. I never noticed this before (but then I've never really studied the "historical decks".) Where does the concept of the "papess" come from? Hmm... I'm sure Fulgour will know. :)

Cerulean	31 Oct 2004
One of my favorite historically minded people wrote an essay that I like to look at in terms of the Papessa... http://trionfi.com/0/i/r/02/

OakDragon	31 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Cerulean One of my favorite historically minded people wrote an essay that I like to look at in terms of the Papessa... http://trionfi.com/0/i/r/02/ Thank you very much for the link, Cerulean! I had never heard of those legends before. Now it makes sense. :)

The Pomegranates and pillars and Lizards... thread was originally posted on 14 Sep 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.