some delicate issues

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alex	09 Sep 2003
I don't know if this subject has come up before, but I would like to hear from people who read for others on a RE basis: as tarot reading and fortune telling are not regulated by any unifying code of ethics, how do you look at issues such as these: 1. Your client confesses he/she is suicidal (remember that in the US mental health care providers are bound to communicate when someone is potentially so); 2. Your client confesses he/she has broken the law, commited a crime; 3. Your client lets you know that he/she is about to do break the law or commit a crime; 4. A client threatens you, tries to manipulate you, becomes clingging, follows you, or declares he/she is in love with you; 5. The sitter makes use of illegal drugs and lets you know about it; I'm asking all these because helping professions have a strict code of ethics for the professional to abide by, whereas we make our own. When it comes to legal issues, however, we have no protection. For instance, if I tell my doctor I smoke pot, I'm sure not to be in the police files the next day, because the doctor's code-of-ethics garantees him the right to keep secrecy about the issue. In case of a law suit involving the clients' drug use, the doctor is not liable. But if I tell my doctor I'm about to jump off the window, I'm sure to have it reported (and for that reason, if I were suicidal, I would not tell my doctor). How do you deal with issues like these? Alex.

Dark_angel	09 Sep 2003
I'm not a regular reader for the public (I'm far too shy), but I work and am training in the caring professions, so I thought I'd have a go at applying my ethics to these problems. 1. Your client confesses he/she is suicidal (remember that in the US mental health care providers are bound to communicate when someone is potentially so); I think support and advice is crucial here, having been in this situation myself (having a suicidal client). If they feel able to tell you this, they are looking for help; maybe they aren't going to a doctor because they know what would happen. This would suggest that maybe they aren't as bad as it may seem; they may feel truly dreadful and want to die, but if they were on the edge of killing themselves, they would do it rather than talking about it. They're asking you for help, and for a reason not to do it. It's not your job to assume responsibility for their actions, just to provide support. Ask them to tell you about what's causing them to feel this way and discuss it, person to person rather than professional to patient. Perhaps show them cards that apply to their situation and talk through the positive aspects of these cards; this might help them to see something worth living for in their own life. Why not keep the numbers and websites of some reputable counsellors or support agencies on hand, so you can give them another source of support? If they're about to jump out the window though, or have taken an overdose already, that's a different matter. Get help immediately. But don't put yourself in any danger, remember that this is ultimately their decision, whether we agree with it or not, and forcefully stopping them when you aren't trained will put both your lives at risk. 2. Your client confesses he/she has broken the law, commited a crime; I don't think you could report this to the police yourself, as all you have is their word, probably not on tape, which would not be sufficient evidence and would put you in a bad light if the police decided you were making it up, or if the client found out - you would have broken their trust. By telling you what they've done, they may well be regretting their actions, so you could suggest that they confess, or, if they can't face that (eg. a young person has shoplifted and can't bear to tell her parents), you could suggest that he/she does good deeds to make up for it. For example, if a person stole some money from an old lady, you could suggest that they donate some money to a charity for the elderly or do some volunteer work at their local care home. Something like that would make them feel less guilty and would make them less likely to do it again. If it's a serious or violent crime, I'd recommend not reading for them again, regardless of how nice or repentent they seem, purely for your own safety. 3. Your client lets you know that he/she is about to do break the law or commit a crime; As with revelations of suicidal thoughts, by telling you this, your client is probably wanting someone to telling them not to do it. Ask them why they want to / feel they have to act in this way, and discuss their problems with them. Again, perhaps examples of relevant cards might help the person to see their situation in a new light. You could tell the police, but I doubt it would prevent it, as they would be unlikely to believe you. Also, if the client found out, they would be extremely angry with you and might want to "get their own back". 4. A client threatens you, tries to manipulate you, becomes clingging, follows you, or declares he/she is in love with you; This kind of behaviour is entirely inappropriate. Declarations of love are fairly common in the counselling professions (they're often called transference, as the client is transferring emotions to a new target that he/she feels close to). A harsh rebuttal could be psychologically harmful, so state clearly and firmly that you are flattered but could NEVER return their feelings, as you already have a partner (if you don't, make one up! or something). Remind them of important people in their lives, and encourage them to show their emotions to these people. Then refer them to another reader and break off all contact. Stalking and threatening behaviour is even worse. Make sure you're never alone with this person, keep a diary of events (detailed!) and go to the police as soon as you have enough evidence. If at any time you fear for your safety, call for help (usually shouting "FIRE!" is better) and call the authorities. NEVER have any contact with this person again, and suggest that they seek professional help. Hope this helps. xxx 5. The sitter makes use of illegal drugs and lets you know about it;

Lee	09 Sep 2003
I read for others but so far have not had any of these issues. In my opinion, a Tarot reader isn't bound to do or not do anything regarding these matters, other than what falls under the category of common sense and common human decency. The way I see it, the client comes to us and hires us to tell them what we see in the cards. We are not health care professionals, we haven't been trained to be health care professionals, and I don't think we should hold ourselves out to be health care professionals (unless, of course, a reader happens to actually be a health care professional; but in this case, I think they should keep their Tarot reading and health care activities separate). My own gut reactions to Alex's questions: 1. Your client confesses he/she is suicidal. I think here I would either strongly encourage the client to contact a suicide hotline or ask the client's permission to contact them myself on their behalf, or contact them myself anyway. I think the person's life is more important than any other consideration. 2. Your client confesses he/she has broken the law, commited a crime. I think it makes a difference what kind of crime we're talking about. Murder? Child molestation? Ignoring parking tickets? I believe even a doctor would be required to report a crime. Only an attorney, I think, can claim a privilige here, and a Tarot reader is certainly not an attorney. 4. A client threatens you, tries to manipulate you, becomes clingging, follows you, or declares he/she is in love with you. I'm afraid I don't see the ethical dilemma here. A Tarot reader is obviously not obligated to endure harassment. I would cut off all contact with the client immediately and call the police if the harassment continues. 5. The sitter makes use of illegal drugs and lets you know about it. Here again, whatever common sense dictates. If the client uses occasional recreational drugs, I don't think it's my responsibility to inform authorities. But if the client admits to selling drugs to children, I probably would inform them. These are only my personal feelings. I'd be interested to see what others say. -- Lee

Dark_angel	09 Sep 2003
oops, forgot the drugs one! Again, I don't think it's right for us to report them; instead why not discuss this with them. They may be searching for an incentive to stop, or it may reveal a deeer problem which needs addressing. xxx

Lee	09 Sep 2003
Oops, forgot one: 3. Your client lets you know that he/she is about to do break the law or commit a crime. Here there wouldn't be anything to tell police anyway, unless they start investigating future crimes, like in "Minority Report." Like Dark_angel, I would use the cards to discuss the issue and try to help them through it. I do think that one ethical obligation we have is to refer them to health care professionals for mental or physical health issues or attorneys for legal issues, rather than try to tackle these issues ourselves. -- Lee

Lee	09 Sep 2003
I just remembered an interesting incident involving the daughter of Dear Abby (a famous advice columnist in the U.S.), who took over her mother's column. She received a letter from someone who said they felt a compunction to molest children and felt they would do so in the near future. Abby's daughter contacted the police and gave them the person's name and address. There was a big controversy at the time, some saying it was unethical for her to do so. However, she isn't a health care professional or attorney, isn't licensed as such and doesn't hold herself out as such. Also, she felt the harm to the child in question was more important than any other consideration. Perhaps her role as an advice columnist is comparable in some ways to our role as Tarot readers... -- Lee

Dark_angel	09 Sep 2003
Yes, I'd certainly tell the authorities if another person was in danger; their safety would have to come above any concern for career or the client.

Umbrae	09 Sep 2003
“Okay now Timmy, as soon as the lid comes off this here can of worms, your job is to keep them all inside so they don’t dry out…” A wonderful topic. Ultimately each of us may be guided and bound by our own set of personal morals. 1) Your client confesses he/she is suicidal: Well for starters, I know the sitter is suicidal, but I might like to know what the cards and the spaces between the cards say. What I think and feel has little to do with the sitter’s life. It may be their lot to end it. Who am I to judge? What gives me that right? I want to see the cards – no two situations are alike. For some, it will be best to help them find strength and courage to live life. For others, it will be best to help them find strength and courage to end it. 2) Your client confesses he/she has broken the law, committed a crime. What kind of crime? What do the cards say? As an ordained minister, what is said to me in the confidence of confession remains there. There is a famous story of a Rabbi who comes home to find his house being robbed. As the thief runs away the Rabbi shouts after him, “The ring is worth 350 rubles!” When his neighbors ask why he informed the thief he replied, “…and have his loss on my shoulders?” who are we, to determine that we should be an instrument of karma for another? Who are we to judge another? Your client’s crime…what kind of crime, what kind of cards… 3) Your client lets you know that he/she is about to do break the law or commit a crime. Same as above. 4) A client threatens you, tries to manipulate you, becomes clinging, follows you, or declares he/she is in love with you. Whoa…scaring me here. This is the stuff nightmares are made of. I never give readings at my house, never reveal my IRL Addy or land line number – there are sicko’s out there folks…and I’m sorry, but we can’t save everyone. It’s nice to think that if we just read a little better, and spoke a little clearer, that mis-understandings would not occur. Wrong. There are still sicko’s out there. Statistically – you’re going to get one…what’s that noise? Is someone on your stoop? Is that an eye pressed against your window? 5) The sitter makes use of illegal drugs and lets you know about it. I want to see the cards. Is this recreational use or addiction? Are they beginning a crime/addiction cycle? What do the cards say…mind you, if you’ve stuck with me this far…can we talk? Suppose we look at the cards and they say nothing of addiction, or crimes, or the death doom dismay and destruction that we’d expect to see. What is our duty? To read the oracles. That’s it. It’s not our lot to judge them or their path. Even when it comes to suicide, I like to remember that there are many kinds of death that do not involve physical death. Murder excepted. And I don’t care what the cards say. In my years of reading I have dealt with each one of the ethical issues. No two cases are alike. Black and white looks good in books, but does not apply in real life. Reading the cards well – really well – and reading from the heart – is why my client is coming to me. If I do not do that – I have committed a crime. Shoving a suicide hotline number in their hands may or may not be the best thing for you to do. On the other hand (I have done this once with excellent results), putting a .38 caliber round in their hand, let them feel the cool brass and the heaviness of the round over the live shell casing…and explain in detail exactly what occurs when a .38 round goes through their skull; details about the exit wound, the mess, clean-up, discovery trauma. Add in various other calibers and the dangers and statistics of suicide failure with all methods. But it all comes back to one thing. What did the cards say? And why do you read for others… But hey...that's just my opinion...

lunalafey	09 Sep 2003
How would you deal with a situation if it didn't involve cards? suicide- I have had to stand face to face with a basket-case holding a gun. We are both still alive....there where no tarot cards before during or after....once the 'event' faded away- I got on the phone to the people that my hurting friend respected....collectivly, in each of our own ways saw our friend though this tough time. Anything that I must do to keep people from being hurt, I will do. I might not know exactly what that is until I'm facing it. crime- hard to say- again, if it involved hurting someone, I would do what ever I had to. Vicimless crime- there is a sense of personal freedom I must respect, yet I can express my distaste, the repurcussions of such actions- etc. Karma has a way of dealing with things- I mention & consider that. (It's not always critical or neccissary to intervene) clinging person- "sorry, Ya' gotta go....As long as they have such feeling, there is nothing that I can do to help you....." drugs- personal freedom respected, my opinions projected.....

Cerulean	09 Sep 2003
Periodically I will take a class that discusses how people should handle relational discussions or framing their presentation points or related to psychology...it sounds like you want to be concerned, humane, but like most of us, impartial and ethical. But it is okay to tell someone, gently, if you cannot handle the reading question or say firmly, this you cannot answer or shake your head, say 'Sorry, I cannot help you.' Then, if you must, leave. If your personal ethics compel you to volunteer an opinion, and continue the conversation---well, if I find any good weblinks, I'll post here. I think the more experienced have actually posted one-on-one responses to situations that show me they were trained and oriented toward answering very very difficult issues. If I went to a tarot symposium, the readers that I've seen there are usually conversational and chatting about general questions or do storylike readings. The other two outside of that I've seen in the company of my sister were generally for entertainment or also more likely to want to do palmistry or past-life or whatever new-agey 'let me tell you about your personality'. But I'll post if I find some good links to hopefully help with your concerns.

Lee	09 Sep 2003
Christine Jette's new book, Professional Tarot (Llewellyn Worldwide)( http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/book.php?pn=J217 ), has some interesting material on this topic. I wrote Ms. Jette and obtained her permission to quote the following guidelines from her book (they relate specifically to telephone readings but I think are still applicable to readings in general): Take the caller seriously. Speak gently and remind the caller that she does have choices. Give her the toll-free number to the suicide prevention hot line and the number to the local psychiatric emergency services (from the list of resources you keep by the phone, of course). Encourage her to call or go to the emergency room for help. Take charge of the conversation and remain calm. Breathe deeply. Ask if she is taking any medication and if she is combining it with alcohol. Directly ask if she intends to harm herself or another. Say that you are concerned about her and, for goodness sake sound sincere. Ask if she has the means to harm herself or another (examples would include access to a gun, drugs, car, rope, knife, poison, etc.) Get her phone number and address. Tell her that you are hanging up now because you are calling 911 on her behalf. Then do it! When you place the call, tell the operator exactly what you asked the caller and exactly what the caller said. Don't exaggerate anything. Be factual. Give the dispatcher the name, address and telephone number of your caller. Let someone trained in crisis intervention make the final decision about taking action. If she hangs up on you before you get contact information, call 911 anyway and report exactly what happened. Let trained personnel decide the next move. Don't minimize the gravity of the situation in your report. "Oh, he said he was going to off his girlfriend and kill himself, but he didn't sound serious." If he said it, it's serious. You don't want to read about the homicide/suicice in tomorrow's paper. Err on the side of caution. Report all threats of harming one's self or harming others; but remember, your only responsibility is to report the suicide or homicide threat to the proper authorities. Let people trained in crisis intervention assess the real danger. Do not, under any circumstances, attempt a face-to-face intervention on your own. You could get killed. If it feels right, send healing or protective energy to the caller after you hang up, or say a prayer. Despite your best efforts, your caller may carry out the threat of harm. It is not your fault; you cannot control the choices or actions of others. If you called emergency personnel, you have done your part. Let it go, but by all means talk aobut it to a trusted friend or advisor. Please note: Paranoid or drug-induced psychoses, and the resultant hallucingogenic voices telling people to harm themselves or others, are entirely different psychiatric conditions. Psychotic episodes require highly-skilled intervention. I can't emphasize enough: don't attempt to diagnose or be a hero. You could get hurt or put someone else in harm's way. Do make that emergency call. Here is some more relevent material from Christine Jette's website (from which Ms. Jette has also graciously given permission to quote) ( http://www.findingthemuse.com ): I am writing about our responsibility as paid tarot readers to report the threat of harming self or harming others to emergency personnel, or in this case, parents, when reading for minors. According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), threats of suicide and homicide are the only "true" psychiatric emergencies. I use the legal term "depraved indifference" to describe our liability as paid readers if we fail to report information to the proper authorities that could have saved someone's life. In this case the teen told us she was going to kill herself, we did not report it, and she did indeed commit suicide. Are we responsible in some way for failing to report the threat? Yes, but... A lawyer friend of mine said that the term depraved indifference, while technically accurate, was a bit extreme to use in this instance. Depraved indifference literally means immoral or shameful apathy. It usually applies to grim situations such as: people who watch a gang rape, do nothing to help the vicitm, and even cheer the rapist on. In this case, the spectators who did nothing might be charged with depraved indifference. As professional tarot readers, we are accepting money for the advice and counsel we give. Because we are being paid, we have an obligation to our clients to do right by them. (We have an obligation to do right by our seekers whether we are paid or not!) We are also accountable for our actions. We might be charged with negligence if we did nothing, that is, neglected to report the threat of suicide to the proper authorities--and our client later carried out the threat. In other words, we are accountable because we had information that could have saved our client's life and we did nothing. Even with an accusation of negligence, a lawyer must prove that the fatal act (suicide) was a direct result of our inaction. In other words, the suicide was the direct result of our failure to report the threat to an intervening adult such as a parent, or emergency personnel. The direct cause is very hard to prove. I know this is perhaps splitting hairs, and I am not a lawyer, but the bottom line is this: As professional readers who counsel others, we are accountable for our actions--or inactions.

Logiatrix	09 Sep 2003
I agree with lunafey: Quote: Originally posted by lunalafey How would you deal with a situation if it didn't involve cards? I see very little difference between my responsibility to others as a reader versus my responibility to others as a human being. They both require of me very specific boundaries. If there is any information imparted to me that speaks of harm to a human being, self-inflicted or otherwise, I will report it. I never ignore even the slightest hint or "joke" of such activities, be it a friend or querent. I am very vocal about illicit drug activity. As your friend or your reader, don't joke about it with me. Drug usage is not fun or funny to me, but I will discuss it with you if you want help. I do listen, but I also voice my opinion. Peace, Tauni EDITED to add... My apologies if this sounds a bit strong. To explain: personal experience and loss from drugs and suicide have brought me to the above viewpoint. Again, this is just to explain, but by no means to qualify my opinion.

divinerguy	09 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I just remembered an interesting incident involving the daughter of Dear Abby (a famous advice columnist in the U.S.), who took over her mother's column. She received a letter from someone who said they felt a compunction to molest children and felt they would do so in the near future. Abby's daughter contacted the police and gave them the person's name and address. There was a big controversy at the time, some saying it was unethical for her to do so. However, she isn't a health care professional or attorney, isn't licensed as such and doesn't hold herself out as such. As an attorney, I would be required by law to report to the police a client who tries to use my services to commit a crime, or may pose a danger to me or another person. As a tarot reader, I owe no duty, other than a moral one, to maintain the confidence of a querent. My advice? Rat 'em out.

Dark Inquisitor	09 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Depraved indifference literally means immoral or shameful apathy. [/b] My thoughts exactly. Tarotphelia

Cerulean	09 Sep 2003
1. This link posts the guidelines from the ATA: http://rayfanreadings.com./tarotCode.html 2. This gives a sample reading and ethical notes This well-designed site gives true examples of sample readings. One example describes a situation where the querent was afraid of her spouse because of repeated abuse and how the reader read the cards: In her writing sections, she describes personality disorders one can associated with certain court cards--she does not say she diagnoses a person according to a court card, she does explain the definition of personality disorders associations with court cards. http://thetarotist.crosswinds.net/ethics.html I hope some of the above gives you useful examples. I learned quite a bit just briefly looking into this topic. Thanks for posting these questions. Mari H.

Logiatrix	10 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki I hope some of the above gives you useful examples. I learned quite a bit just briefly looking into this topic. Thanks for posting these questions. Mari H. Yes, the articles are very helpful... ...and this question has been VERY thought-provoking (Thank You, Alex)! And a big "thank you" for the links, Mary. :)

Alex	10 Sep 2003
Thanks for all these wonderfull replies. I'll write in more length tomorrow, it's my birthday and I'll pay to not go to work!!!!!! So I'll have time for the forums and other things I like in life. For now, I must say that, even thought I agree with Umbrae in that we are not here, or there, to judge people's decisions, I question what responsibilities we might have with others and society, when giving "advice" through the cards. Also, for the ones who are not protected by any vow or code-of-ethics, the ones who are not ordained ministers, licenced mental care health providers or attorneys-at-law, the issue of liability has to be carefully considered. What may we lawfully keep secrecy about, what must we report if we do not want to get in trouble with the law? I'll come back tomorrow. Alex.

Mirta	11 Sep 2003
No one is outside the law, not counsellors, psychiatrists or even in some countries, priests. You have to live within the laws of the land where you live, you have to make sure that you don't inadvertantly become an accesssory to criminal intent or activity. It is best to follow a code of ethics as set out by psychologists, or counsellors, check where you live to see what their code says. Anyways, here is an example of a Code of Ethics, for Tarot professionals, reproduced here by permission. As always, a code is a guide that protects not only the client, but also the reader. Code of ethics It is unethical to read Tarot Cards for anyone under the age of sixteen without the written permission or presence of a consenting parent or guardian. Do not exploit clients via the Tarot to achieve sexual satisfaction. Remain aloof to clients expectations, desires and exploitations of yourself. Accept clients as they are, without subjecting them to your own belief systems As a reader you inform the client only on what the cards indicate and not your personal opinions. Do not do any therapy techniques requiring scientific or psychological competence, unless deemed trained and qualified in such areas. Do not give clients information about others without their written or personal consent. All information gained about clients in private is confidential and therefore not to be related to anyone without their written permission. Never diagnose medical conditions unless trained and qualified in such areas, and always refer to qualified practitioners where needed. All information is confidential unless there is some over - riding legal, social or moral obligation to contact the right authorities.

Alex	11 Sep 2003
I think a code-of-ethics only protects you if it is regulated by some organization, the same that regulates your profession. If you are a licensed psychologist in the USA you're bound to follow the American Psychological Association's code-of-ethics plus the code of ethics that regulates clinical psychology in your state. I don't know how it goes for priests, ordained ministers etc. If someone knows, please enlighten me. Alessandra

Frater Neshama	11 Sep 2003
I am a retired Lutheran minister, and I've known spiritual counselors who have gone to their lawyers and had a document drawn up, which they then affix to their wall in plain sight. Basically it is an outline of YOUR ethical stance, and the liability you are prepared to undertake on behalf of your clients. If you are prepared to go to jail rather than tell on them, let that be known in the document. If you feel a moral obligation to tell on them if they tell you they are about to commit a crime, let that be known in the document as well. It doesn't do much in the eyes of the court, but it will address the issues in front of the client and they will know where you stand before they sit down. Hope this Helps !!! ...93... 93/93 Frater Neshama

jmd	13 Sep 2003
A delicate issue indeed. Much of the sentiment in Umbrae's post (on the previous page) I entirely concur with, and the 'codification' of ethical practices is merely trying to (forever unsuccessfully) spell out one's ethical stance - or, in the case where this is generalised to a group, impose a particular view on members of the group. In Ethics of Tarot Reading, I also give a link to another thread which also addresses a similar issue. Frater Neshama certainly makes much sense when he writes that the document may not have much stance in court - depending, of course, on the reason why some issue is taken to court. Mirta (welcome to Aeclectic, by the way) quotes from a code which another uses. Irrespective as to whose it is, and though many of the points give the appearance of reasonableness, each point (except the second) has aspects which I can see is, in specific situations, either inappropriate or just plain incorrect. But let me return to Alex's specific questions, and attempt to answer these in a combined form. The readee confesses s/he: is suicidal; or has broken, or is about to break, the law or committed a crime; or threatens, manipulates, clings, follows, or is in love with you; or makes use of illegal drugs. In a reading situation, I would need to neither assume s/he is serious nor flippant. If I am a trained counsellor or therapist and they come to me as such - and my use of Tarot is within my practice, then I have particular duty of care issues which my profession requires me to handle in particular ways. If I am not, the reading is what informs my response. Integrity above all. As an aspirant on the path, I am also to carefully construct my verbal response, for its effects upon this specific individual, at this time in the specific situation at hand, I am to carefully consider. As in other life circumstances, part of the reader's responsibilities is to also determine one's skills - as reader, as story teller, as advice giver, as seer... and to be honest when the situation is larger than one can properly handle at that time or stage in one's life.

Alex	14 Sep 2003
Professional codes-of-ethics are not devised to ensure the best possible customer service. Neither are they meant to accommodate for individual differences. Their point is exactly another: like the 10 commandments, codes-of-ethics draw unquestionable boundaries. "Thou shall not kill" (there's no "unless you are part of the Iraqi Freedom mission") is not meant to be questioned. "Thou shall not kill", period. In the same way, the pervading prohibition of sexual relationships between helping professionals and their clients is not meant for the professional to question on a case-to-case basis. None of what has been said above means necessarily that, in a case-to-case basis, it is not a good idea to kill somebody, sometimes; or that a particular client won't benefit from being laid. Certain prohibitions/laws/regulations exist in order to assure a certain level of social "functioning", in activities where human beings are involved, and such "ideal" functioning is nothing less than a statistically based approximation of what functions best. Now that I have that point behind me: the reason why I have asked those questions is that I advocated for persons who felt abused by helping professionals, and during the time I was involved with this issue, I have observed, over and over, that most of these professionals, who end up in court, in fact believed that they acted in the behalf of their clients. Most of them consistently declared they acted in the best of the intentions. The psychologist who didn't return a call from a suicidal client because he didn't want to foster dependency; the nurse who slept with her mentally disabled client because she thought he could use some sex; the priest who sexually abused a young girl to help her spiritual life growth; the psychiatrist who had her client sucking her breasts to help him re-connect him with his early childhood. All these are pictorial representations of worst solutions to day-to-day dilemmas people who deal with people are constantly faced with. Yet, they were looked at and judged as good solutions, at least once. Our judgment alone may fail us when we most need it. Thanks to all who responded, and I appreciated hearing from the most experienced ones, some real examples. Bests Alex.

jmd	14 Sep 2003
Alex's comments that 'our judgements may fail us when we most need it' certainly gives cause for some to argue the case for the codification of 'rules of behaviour'. This is not the only step towards assisting us in cases where our judgements may fail us. Participation in communities, such as this one, probably does more to assisting our decisions than codes do. To rely on a code of conduct - unfortunately a move becoming more pronounced in numerous places - does not encourage the person to make the at times difficult decisions which have to be made. The examples above - of the person sexually abusing another, or of the psychologist not returning a client's call, shows that 'codes' can also be broken. If, in each of the cases mentioned, the person genuinely thought they were doing the 'right' thing, than code or not, they would have done so. I suppose that for me this is an issue which touches on some very fundamental ways in the manner in which we function in a social group. Over the past twenty years, corporate bodies have had less and less regulations (the 'deregulation', in Australia, of banking, electricity, postal services, telecommunication, air services, gas and water services, and a few others I have just forgotten at this instant), and the greater regulation of citizens in what they may or may not do, and the way they may or may not do it, through the introduction of 'codes of behaviour' for myriad professions which, at face value, give the appearance of protecting the innocent from abuse, but diminish the professional integrity of its membership - especially in sectors in which one deals, as a professional, with other members of the community in capacities of non-equal 'power' relations (health and education in particular). Certainly we need to encourage and discuss amongst ourselves ways in which to meet difficult situations - this is healthy. To take a side-step and suggest a specific code from considerations we may have made is not, however, of the same nature. The former seeks to augment understanding. The latter to prohibit or define response. Of course, we may just have to disagree on some issues - which is probably as well, as it may lead us to better understand and reflect on the issues. Further, it may be that different individuals function best under different conditions - some with a written code to assist them. Let us not assume, however, that this method is best for all, and thereby seek to impose a particular way of working on us all.

Alex	15 Sep 2003
It certainly does, but I'm not necessarily defending their use. I believe it's certainly better that each one of us will think ahead of time about some of these possibilities, and imagine, how one would / should behave. It is obviously a gross approximation, but it is an step towards having a personal code of conduct, and if it is a solid one, will probably converge with other community's members'. Yes, every single example I have given above are examples of violation of a professional code of ethics, when individuals imagined that not only the rules could be questioned, but that they should. Obviously, the problem has no easy solution but some preventive measures may/can be taken to ease the consequences of failed judgments. One thing I believe may help is to ALWAYS put the sitter's well being first, exception given to cases when one may put oneself in danger by doing so. And to constantly evaluate whether the issue of consent is applicable to the situation or not. Minors, and persons with mental problems, for example, are not, by law, "consenting adults". The notion of consent is also weakened in relationships where there is imbalance of power. Doctors, lawyers, professors, psychologists, all these professionals may come across, frequently, instances when another adult is not considered a consenting adult, for legal purposes, in a given situation. Also, make sure that we know the laws in the land where we are, what is legal, what is not, and could turn us into allies of a crime. Thanks jmd for your beautiful defense of your point. It's always a pleasure to read your texts, you write so well. Quote: Originally posted by jmd Alex's comments that 'our judgements may fail us when we most need it' certainly gives cause for some to argue the case for the codification of 'rules of behaviour'.

DeLani	15 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd I suppose that for me this is an issue which touches on some very fundamental ways in the manner in which we function in a social group. Over the past twenty years, corporate bodies have had less and less regulations (the 'deregulation', in Australia, of banking, electricity, postal services, telecommunication, air services, gas and water services, and a few others I have just forgotten at this instant), and the greater regulation of citizens in what they may or may not do, and the way they may or may not do it, through the introduction of 'codes of behaviour' for myriad professions which, at face value, give the appearance of protecting the innocent from abuse, but diminish the professional integrity of its membership - especially in sectors in which one deals, as a professional, with other members of the community in capacities of non-equal 'power' relations (health and education in particular). Right On, JMD. A personal code of ethics is important, I believe, but I will tell you now that there is NO organization - not the ATA, not the US government, not the UN, noone - that governs my behaviour above my own conscience. I obey the laws of my land *when they fall within common-sense (harming none), and where obeying is simply less offensive to my personal code of ethics than the risk involved in disobedience.* I am a free human being, born a citizen of the Earth and oweing my allegiance to nothing but my own conscience. I am a free-thinker, and in the tradition of Gahndi, Thoreau, Rosa Parks, etc., I participate in civil disobedience - if a law is unjust, it is my ethical duty to break it. Anyway, there is my code, so you understand where I am coming from. If someone is potentially a harm to themselves or others, I will take Jette's advice and report it to the proper authorities. But if they smoke a little weed, or do some X on the weekends, that's their business. They aren't harming anyone, so I don't see what the problem is. What if they are addicted to something? I try to counsel them about the dangers, give them resources to quit, but again, that is their decision, and I can't make it for them. I'm sure not going to call the gestapo on them - the pain and suffering that would cause (to both them and their loved ones) will certainly be more than the addiction (by the way - the World Health Organization agrees with me on this one). But I guess that only applies to some addictions. Alcoholism is perfectly legal in this country. But I would not treat any addiction differently based on its legal standing. Rape, murder? If it happened in the past, I would encourage them to confess, then never see them again (I don't want rapists and murderers around me!). But, there could be exceptions to that as well. For example, some woman who offed her abusive husband 30 years ago, I might not say anything. But then, if they have confessed to me, a stranger, they are probably feeling some sort of remorse and maybe even a desire to confess and atone. Suicide? I think Jette addressed it best. People who are at that point need help, help that I am not qualified to give. Let them know people do care about them. So those are my *personal* ethics regarding those situations, sure to be very different than some. But that is what makes the world go round.

The some delicate issues thread was originally posted on 09 Sep 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.